Traction

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dahc

I've been using the FastSize extender since May of this year and have seen some "subjective" results in girth & length. Not much in change of curve, but since I'm in the 1st year of P.D. maybe my curve would have gotten worse? I would buy the F.S. or something similar again knowing what I know now, but I would have more realistic expectations of the outcome. I guess anything but having the penis I had last year would be a disappointment to me.  :(  




Hawk

It is a bit troubling that the community has been given no more information on this study.  While 10 constitutes such a small number that the scientific community may disregard the findings, if 100 % saw significant improvement that in itself is significant.  The problem is in the details.

What stage of Peyronies Disease were these men in and how long had they had Peyronies Disease?
What was the initial degree of deformity
Did any have calcified plaques?
What daily regimen did they use?
How many months did they follow the regimen?
Was the improvement determined with objective measurements by trained personnel?
What was the measurement technique?
Was this improvement simply patient reported?
What is the breakdown or range of improvement in curve, length, diameter?

These are just a few questions.  The answers to these make all the difference in the world.  None of this information is found either in his book or on internet sources.  It would seem with something this important, that this information would be documented during the process and be made readily available to patients and doctors.

Another point is that this device and the VED were discussed at length on forums before doctors even began to look at them.  The same can be said of other treatments.  This raises many interesting points.
Prostatectomy 2004, radiation 2009, currently 70 yrs old
After pills, injections, VED - Dr Eid, Titan 22cm implant 8/7/18
Hawk - Updated 10/27/18 - Peyronies Society Forums

dahc

Hawk,


You have a good point.  I asked my urologist  if he would be measuring my angle after I completed my Verapamil injections and said that he doesn't usually. He is going to on my request. My experience is doctors will give you a pill or therapy of some kind and if you don't tell them it didn't help your problem they assume it did. Since VEDs and Traction devices are newer therapies for P.D. you would think more urologist would be interested in collecting data. I think most doctors don't have the time or inclination for follow up.

Dahc  

ComeBacKid

If I'm correct I believe Dr. Levine was conducting a study using a traction device and verapamil injections, this was being held and in process over six months ago.  Does anyone know if he ever published a study, as I believe  a couple of us on here were waiting to hear the results, and at least one of our members was seeing him and using a traction device.  Any updates would be helpful...

Comeback

Hawk

Comebackid,

Apparently this is as sophisticated as the data from that study gets.

Quote from: John28 on August 28, 2007, 04:01:05 PM

I also spoke to Dr Levine over the phone recently. I think that the original pilot study only included 10 people, but encouragingly all of them had some measurable improvement in their erect deformity. More importantly, all of them have retained the improvement several months after they stopped using the device.

Dr Levine said he's been consistently impressed with the results; over 50 of his patients have used the device so far. He did note though that the pilot was only a small study.
Prostatectomy 2004, radiation 2009, currently 70 yrs old
After pills, injections, VED - Dr Eid, Titan 22cm implant 8/7/18
Hawk - Updated 10/27/18 - Peyronies Society Forums

Hawk

I have been in touch with the individuals at Fastsize and they indicate that Dr. Levine's preliminary study on traction will be published in a medical journal within the next 30-60 days.  That may well account for why more specifics have not been forthcoming on this study.  I believe that medical journals have a requirement that submissions must not have been published elsewhere prior.

Prostatectomy 2004, radiation 2009, currently 70 yrs old
After pills, injections, VED - Dr Eid, Titan 22cm implant 8/7/18
Hawk - Updated 10/27/18 - Peyronies Society Forums

Hawk

Just some of my very recent personal thoughts and opinions.

Sadly there are few studies on VED's or traction devices.  Hopefully that will change in the near future and the Levine preliminary study is a welcome first step. I have asked some if they were aware of documented VED studies but so far I have gotten no replies. It is also interesting that Peyronies Disease patients have been advocating VED and traction devices for years while most doctors dismissed them as a waste of time.

It has been reliably established that many types of tissue can be stretched with somewhat permanent results.  Some of the many accepted examples are: Stretching dermal scar tissue on burn victims, straightening teeth with braces, lip stretching among the Ubangi tribes.  There are also the examples of ear lobe stretching in other tribes as well as medical straightening of bones with braces (at least in growing children). tissue expanders are also accepted practice by doctors to provide extra tissue for surgical repair of certain conditions.  Tendons can be stretched with both exercise and braces.  With these examples of skin, scar tissue, cartilage, and bone bending or stretching, it seems bizarre to even suggest that penile tissue or penile scar tissue uniquely resists stretching or remolding.

What is also interesting is that most of the above examples involve very long term tension to achieve the results as opposed to repeated short term stretching.  I think most would agree that many of the examples could likely not even be accomplished with short, periodic, stretching.  Even the examples where short periods of stretching may get results, longer stretching would get superior results (burn victims, tendon stretches).  None of the examples above would get better results with short periodic stretching.  It seems that application of this principle to the penis scar tissue would be more accurately reproduced by several hours with the traction device rather than minutes with the VED.

Also interesting is the different ways these devices direct the stretching to various tissue.  If you stretch the flaccid penis with the thumb and forefinger its length is limited by the most limiting Peyronies Disease scar tissue or plaque.  As soon as the shortest length of scar tissue reaches its limits the penis can be stretched no further.  At this point the shortest or most restrictive tissue in under a stretch tension but the longer normal tissue is completely uninvolved.  All stretch is targeted to the restricting tissue.

The VED on the other hand applies uniform internal pressure which means that the normal elastic tissue stretches to its longer capacity at the same time the scar tissue is stretching to its shorter capacity.  Both the restrictive scar tissue and the normal tissue have stretching tension applied equally.  For this reason a typical VED tube allows the same or even a more pronounced curve during the VED erection.  Just like a balloon with a weak spot, increasing pressure will likely stretch the weak spot more (the elastic normal tissue).  In fact, it is precisely this that the smaller cylinders on multi-cylinder VEDs attempts to address.  I think they do address it to some degree but due to different penis sizes filling tubes differently it seems to be an imprecise method.  When the penis fills the cylinder of a small tube, pressure is exerted longitudinally or with a lengthwise pull.  The problem is while the penis cannot bend in the small tube, pressure is still exerted on the normal chambers and tissue rather than isolated to the restrictive tissue.  This combined with the long, slow, steady, stretch seem to make the traction device a more logical choice.  Undeniably the longer period makes it less convenient.

The VED does have some benefit in pulling blood with some oxygen into the tissue.  This may be most important for those that cannot get normal erections, and it can be used for ED patients to facilitate intercourse.

Hawk
Prostatectomy 2004, radiation 2009, currently 70 yrs old
After pills, injections, VED - Dr Eid, Titan 22cm implant 8/7/18
Hawk - Updated 10/27/18 - Peyronies Society Forums

Tim468

That is a really good overview, Hawk.

The effects of traction on girth are starting to make sense to me now also. As we stretch out a tube, it will not necessarily go (when erect to the longest (and yet thinnest) length possible. Rather, the stretched tissue will now be able to stretch out laterally as well.

Reminds me of old "Chinese finger cuffs". If you over-stretch the woven sheath out (with force or over time), when it is pushed back to a normal length, it has a larger diameter.

Tim
52, Peyronies Disease for 30 years, upward curve and some new lesions.

Old Man

Hey guys:

Hopefully the Birmingham Urology study will be published soon. From some preliminary comments that have come to my attention, they did what was the 26 week protocol, but with a modified regimen to some degree. It is my understanding that a new group study will be started after finishing the first one. The new study is supposed to use another protocol similar to the 26 week one, but includes other exercises. I am anxiously awaiting the results of the first study.

I agree that traction has it's place in Peyronies Disease therapy. I also firmly believe that the VED protocol should be included along with the traction. The major drawback of traction devices is that they have to be worn for extended periods of time. If one is totally retired and has nothing better to do, it would be the ideal way to go. VED therapy even only for short periods can and will give good results if one approaches it with moderation in vacuum pressure and perservance to keep up the daily routines for extended periods of time. Further damage can be experienced with both treatments if done improperly and without common sense in their applications.

Bottom line, for me at least, is that one has to do whatever works for them. I see no definitive "treatment" on the horizon now. I am pleased that studies are at least now being done to try for some help for Peyronies Disease sufferers. I would like to know just how many men actually have Peyronies Disease, but never get checked for it by a qualified medical professional. I firmly believe that the number is far greater than reported in today's medical circles.

The above in only the considered opinion of the writer and states nothing other that.

Old Man
Age 92. Peyronies Disease at age 24, Peyronies Disease after
stage four radical prostatectomy in 1995, Heart surgery 2004 with three bypasses/three stents.
Three more stents in 2016. Hiatal hernia surgery 2017 with 1/3 stomach reduction. Many other surgeries too.

newguy

Great post Hawk, I've been thinking along those same lines for a while now.

Check this out:  http://69.89.25.196/~videosol/PEWeights.avi

It's a video demo of the golf weights I mentioned before (not me in the video) . Mine have just arrived so I'll be able to keep everyone updated on my progress (or otherwise) over the next few months. The thinking behind the system is that it allows you to stretch for many hours on end at a lower tension. I have tried out the fastsize, but have found it very uncomfortable. I'll still retain it though, to keep my options open.

Hawk

I watched the clip but was left with a puzzled look on my face when it was over.  The guy was certainly matter of fact and very clear in what he explained.  When he was finished however, I was left with one huge question.  What was the point of putting weights on his penis ???, especially on the base where any traction would be confined to a very small portion of the shaft?

I would also have a concern that the wrapping would only prevent normal blood flow and expansion of the last half of the shaft and lead to problems.  Also, assuming this man was going to put on some pants, what was the point of the sheath?  Hopefully this man wears more than this to work everyday.
Prostatectomy 2004, radiation 2009, currently 70 yrs old
After pills, injections, VED - Dr Eid, Titan 22cm implant 8/7/18
Hawk - Updated 10/27/18 - Peyronies Society Forums

newguy

Quote from: Hawk on September 09, 2007, 07:28:14 PM
I watched the clip but was left with a puzzled look on my face when it was over.  The guy was certainly matter of fact and very clear in what he explained.  When he was finished however, I was left with one huge question.  What was the point of putting weights on his penis ???, especially on the base where any traction would be confined to a very small portion of the shaft?

I would also have a concern that the wrapping would only prevent normal blood flow and expansion of the last half of the shaft and lead to problems.  Also, what was the point of the sheath?  Hopefully this man wears more than this to work everyday.

I haven't really got started with it yet properly, but when I tried it out, I used more and heavier weights, so that the weights were placed beyond the 'problem area'. This created a good amount of tension which seems to stretch the majority of the penis. The weights press down on the tapes area so in a sense all but the head of the penis experiences some pull. The bloodflow point is  avery valid one, but many people are currently using this system at another forum (though not for the same reason) and through trial and error many people wear it for several hours per day.

I believe the sheath is to prevent the head rubbing on loose jogging trousers etc if you happen to be wearing them. I know the whole setup looks kind of insane, but it's a different approach to the traction approach, and as such I figures it was worth a mention.

Tim468

The point of any traction is penis lengthening. Whether or not it works is another matter.

Tim
52, Peyronies Disease for 30 years, upward curve and some new lesions.

newguy

Quote from: Tim468 on September 10, 2007, 08:29:59 AM
The point of any traction is penis lengthening. Whether or not it works is another matter.

Tim

I agree. The weights have been used by many as part of penis lengthening routine and are treated very seriously on perhaps the largest forum online relating to those aims. They are often combined with more serious stretching.

Liam

Be careful not to tear tissue and have new plaques.
"I don't ask why patients lie, I just assume they all do."
House

Hawk

Quote from: newguy on September 10, 2007, 12:00:13 PM
The weights have been used by many as part of penis lengthening routine and are treated very seriously on perhaps the largest forum online relating to those aims.

That is worth very very little in terms of safety.  Most of these men are in the penis obsession mode and take risks because they are also still in the mode of not realizing that a penis is destructible. You on the other hand, already have penis injury with a healing disorder.  In fact some of their members are here now because of Peyronies Disease from injuries from methods they learned over there.  That is not to say that weights can never be used safely, possibly they can if one is very conservative.  If one is not prone to Peyronies Disease they may be able to pull stunts you will never get away with however.

One of my personal concerns is having an unstabilized penis in traction with weights.  A movement that caused you to swing or shift could torque a momentary heavy strain on a specific area of tissue and cause a tear .  I certainly can not imagine these are safe to wear while moving around.
Prostatectomy 2004, radiation 2009, currently 70 yrs old
After pills, injections, VED - Dr Eid, Titan 22cm implant 8/7/18
Hawk - Updated 10/27/18 - Peyronies Society Forums

newguy

I am well aware that many members of penis growth froums tend to have a wreckless approach, but its worth remembering that people with peyronies use those forums too, as well as the fastsize forum, and as such there are insights to be found in various places. I agree that safety is a primary concern and as such it's always best to maintain a convervative approach but using less weight for a longer period could have merits to it. If something looks odd or seems unusual in some respects shouldn't rule it out totally.

Aside from this, I'm very much looking forward to reading the results of Dr. Levine's preliminary fastsize study.


Edited.  Quotation used was the entire previous post and was removed by moderator.

Hawk

I have been doing more thinking about traction, VED's, and mechanical stretching in general.  This is such a simple concept that I had trouble explaining it briefly and clearly.

As many know, the stretched length of the flaccid penis is very close to the length of the erect penis.  Often studies use this stretched length as a measure.  The length of the  manual stretch is limited by the shorted, least elastic tissue.  Traction uses this same method to stretch and hold that stretch for a few, to several hours, with short periodic breaks.  Although the data is limited, preliminary studies and some European studies indicate that a 3 hour daily stretch is in fact effective in restoring length after 3 months.  Sketchy VED studies and claims are that it is effective at restoring some lost length after 6 month to a year of stretching 30 minute a day consisting of several stretch, hold, and release exercises.  VED's and traction are not magic or mysterious.  They apply a mechanical stretch.  I am sure that traction used 30 minutes a day for a year would give the same results as a VED or a VED used 3 hours a day for 3 months while not practical would give very close results to traction.

Lets assume a man gets daytime or nocturnal erections so oxygenation is NOT an issue.

This then is the question:  Why can't a man do manual stretch exercises consisting of stretch and hold for 2 minutes, release for 1 minute, with the cycle repeated for 30 minutes and do so manually.  In other words, use a VED protocol but substitute a manual stretch for a vacuum.  Maybe the ultimate joke here is that stretching requires no equipment if one is dedicated.  In other words, a manual stretch by grasping the glands and stretching as you would to measure would have the same mechanics of traction as a traction device.  Stretching or traction at the same cycle as the VED should produce similar results as a VED.  There is no reason I can even imagine why it would be different.

I am sure some will have a gut response that it may be different but, I think that they will be hard pressed to give any evidence or logical explanation of any difference in plaque stretching.  
Prostatectomy 2004, radiation 2009, currently 70 yrs old
After pills, injections, VED - Dr Eid, Titan 22cm implant 8/7/18
Hawk - Updated 10/27/18 - Peyronies Society Forums

Old Man

Hawk:

The stretching you are suggesting is basically what jelqing does. The most difference, as I see it, is that you do not "pull" as hard or as much as most jelqing exercise routines recommend. Some web sites have jelqing exercises posted, but most of them that I have visited use very strenuous exercises that in my book would/could cause more damage. I believe that a mild form of jelqing does have a place in Peyronies Disease treatment/exercise.

IMHO, any form of pulling, stretching, traction or vacuum therapy would be beneficial for promoting blood flow and/or exercising the tissue to help with the curves/bends or plaque exercise, etc.

Old Man
Age 92. Peyronies Disease at age 24, Peyronies Disease after
stage four radical prostatectomy in 1995, Heart surgery 2004 with three bypasses/three stents.
Three more stents in 2016. Hiatal hernia surgery 2017 with 1/3 stomach reduction. Many other surgeries too.

Liam

QuoteMaybe the ultimate joke here is that stretching requires no equipment if one is dedicated

Maybe.  The problem is in the "if".  Can someone be that consistent.

I'm also not sure about gaining length.  My regimen has helped me regain length to a point.  That happened really quickly.  I've noticed nothing new since.

Another difference is VED filling the chambers with blood.  I wouldn't stop using the VED for that reason alone.

I would think the chance of a manual stretch for 30 min a day could help prevent lost length.  I base this on my use of traction in the shower (I think the heat helps).  The advantage of my "superstretcher" is my hand are free to actually bathe ;)

"I don't ask why patients lie, I just assume they all do."
House

dahc

I can certainly understand not wanting to pay up to $300 for what looks to be $15 dollars worth of metal and plastic, but I don't think I have the patients to hand stretch for long enough to do any good.

Whenever I go up a segment on the fastsize my erections look fuller & maybe slightly longer. I think the key to regaining size is to keep increasing stretch periodically. I'm to the point where I can only maximum stretch at home, I take off a few segments to wear under clothes at work.

D

Tim468

The use of hands to do what a device does is problematic. First, how would you floss and brush your teeth? Seriously, we use our hands for many things, and if we spent all day tugging our dicks, we wouldn't have much time left. I think that the VED may do what the traction does, but using different mechanisms. The VED gives better lateral stretching and worse longitudinal stretch, IMO. Either can improve the contractions of Peyronie's Disease.

The continuous stretching may gain length in an undiseased penis. And it may regain length in the fibrosed penis. But from my standpoint, the question is also one of "Will it prevent further contraction?"

If that is a benefit of it, then constant lower tension traction (ie for wearing at work as mentioned in a previous post by dahc) may keep gains from being lost to active contractile forces.

Tim
52, Peyronies Disease for 30 years, upward curve and some new lesions.

j

I'm a pretty handy guy and I made a serviceable VED for way under $100.  I've been thinking about ideas for a simple stretching gadget, too.   Since my problem is curving and shortening from a longitudinal band, traction might help me more than the VED.

I think if I were to discuss a simple, low-cost mechanical treatment idea with a urologist, he'd say - it won't work and you might do damage.  Instead, he might suggest verapamil inections, which also don't work and can do damage, but at least cost thousands of dollars.  Ok, mabye that's just my personal cynicism but...  in general, MDs won't consider a treatment idea that didn't come through official channels.  And the only ideas that make it through these channels are ones that make money.  No one can get podium time at a urological convention to talk about a cheap, effective home remedy.  No salesman will be making the rounds handing out literature about it. No studies will get funded.  If such a treatment is possible it will be up to us, the patients, to find out about it - or invent it - and try it on our own.  







Hawk

J,

You honestly mean that you don't expect to see Angus at the AU convention speaking on "Home Construction of an Effective VED" ?  You are cynical!  ;)
Prostatectomy 2004, radiation 2009, currently 70 yrs old
After pills, injections, VED - Dr Eid, Titan 22cm implant 8/7/18
Hawk - Updated 10/27/18 - Peyronies Society Forums

bodoo2u

Fellas,

I have the on the Max Pullr for the first time as I write this. It's really a funny feeling and will take some getting used to. I can't imagine wearing this thing in public, because I would have to walk like a stiff-legged mummy so as not to injure myself. LOL. I'm not sure how much pressure (stretch) to apply, but I will say that the top chord is squeezing the area below my head, so I guess that is enough pressure for now. Not sure how anyone wears this thing 8 hours a day. I might set my alarm every two hours so I can wake up and take it off at the recommended intervals. Wish me luck, because I sure need my length back.  

Liam

Quotebecause I would have to walk like a stiff-legged mummy so as not to injure myself. LOL

I know exactly waht yo mean.  I stick with my hot shower, 20-30 min., twice a week method.  I am afraid of sleeping with it on, even if I could  ;)

BTW, You all know what I think of subjective measures.  That said, I am pleased with the fact things are more like normal while flacid.
"I don't ask why patients lie, I just assume they all do."
House

bodoo2u

Liam,

I'm worried that the healthy side of my member will stretch out with the use of the Max Pullr (was the spelling a mistake on the manufacturers part or intentional  ???) causing further curvature. My plaque runs the length of the right side, from the base to the head, and I wouldn't want to become further out of balance.

Regarding the use of "Da Max", I think I might buy a pack of dry gauze pads to put below my head so that the plastic tube doesn't irritate me so much in that area.

Hey, how about those extentions they supply, and the extra holes in the pad that are there to hold the penis. If a guy is long enough to use those holes or the extentions he better not be trying to stretch it out, he better be afraid to get any bigger. The ladies are gonna run away from him. ;D

So, and this is for anybody who knows anything about traction and has used it for some time; is it true that the penis will grow wider before it stretches lengthwise, and are the gains permanent? I'm really not trying to gain any more girth.

Lastly, traction is a lot easier to use than a VED, in my humble opinion. I don't have to wait until the wee hours of the morning to use it for any length of time without interruption and there is no messy lubrication to clean up before I go out into the general population of the house.

bodoo2u

Will the tubing that holds the head of the penis in place on the Max Pullr prevent me from tightening enough to get a really good stretch. I notieced that some of the more expensive models have methods of holding the penis that doesn't appear to cause what is known as "choking". I did notice, however, that the Max Pullr advertisement didn't appear to "choke" the penis of the model. Can anyone who has used Fastsize or any other traction device give me a little feedback. The fastsize forum has some amazing success stories on it, so amazing that they are almost unbelievable. I also noticed that they had a story on WebMD.

Come on fellas, where are you? For a bunch of us with diminished sex lives u sure can get busy on the weekends.  (Just teasing. Peyronies has turned me into the Internet-searching nerd I was born to be) :D


bodoo2u

And just how much of a stretch do I actually need to do. I'll try to make this my last question. I just don't want to wear this thing a long time for nothing, so I want to make sure I do enough. Should I actually feel the stretch while I'm earing this, or is anything above the normal flaccid length good for gains/maintenence?

Hawk

I have no first hand experience with traction but I thought that the fastsize also has the surgical tube noose which sounds the same as the fastsize.  I have see 2 other systems.  One on the sizegenics http://www.sizegenetics.com/how_it_works.html and another I forget the name of that is like a cap that goes over the entire glans almost like a shower cap with tension applied to the "top", or "end" of the cap.

The discouraging thing is the crap that seems to be a part of these sites.  Sizegeneic include 2 kinds of pills to speed size increase  ::) what a crock!

Boodoo2u said
QuoteI'm worried that the healthy side of my member will stretch out with the use of the Max Pullr ...causing further curvature.

How could that possibly happen?  The longer side gets NO stretch since the limit of the length is determined by the shorter plaque tissue.  Read my earlier post #56 on this topic.
Prostatectomy 2004, radiation 2009, currently 70 yrs old
After pills, injections, VED - Dr Eid, Titan 22cm implant 8/7/18
Hawk - Updated 10/27/18 - Peyronies Society Forums

dahc

Bodoo,

I have the FastSize and here is the routine that comes with the device:
http://www.fastsize.com/products/fastsize-extender/program-details.php

I've contacted FastSize to see if some of the doctors that are affiliated with them had a plan specifically for men with Peyronie's and they sent me the link you see above. In other words, NO. I would start out conservatively and add more tension gradually week by week. Many of the guys on the FastSize forum have names like PornStarWannaBe, somehow I don't think the results they claim are real either. I can't help but wonder how many of them will end up with Peyronie's from abusing their dicks.

Tim468

Regarding the specific question about stretching the "long" side and not the "short" side, I think this is how to think about it:

Take two belts - in my case, one I wear now and one I wore about ten years ago that is shorter by two inches!

Hold them by the buckle and the tip and strech them out together. guess which one reaches it's taut length first? the short one. It seems to me that the stretching would affect the shorter and more contracted side of the penis most with direct stretching.

The same question occured to me about a year ago with the larger VED tubes. The answer there is that using the smaller diameter tube leads to lengthening tensions.

Tim
52, Peyronies Disease for 30 years, upward curve and some new lesions.

Liam

QuoteA penile applicator with supports is used to maintain the penis in an extended position and
to position the thermocouple on the plaque to be treated.

I finally found this in (of all places) the forums research section.  I knew I read it somewhere.  Go to that section and open "Hyperthermia treatment for Peyronies Disease - Clinical Study (PDF Document)".  You will see the pdf file at the bottom of the post.

Honestly, I don't believe this to be a miracle cure.  I'm not sure it will straighten any curves, but I have my hopes.  I know it has helped me regain most,if not all, lost length.   It has had the most dramatic results of anything I've done or tried.  I am not discounting other treatments.  I just mean in a relatively short period of time, I have observable improvement.  NO DOUBT!  No I didn't measure :)  

Two time a week for 20 - 30 min wearing traction device using hot (not scalding  :o  ) water is all I've done.  I use a steady pulse of water from a shower massage centered on the base of the penis for about 10 min.  I then shower as usual.  I take off the traction right before getting dressed.  I stretch to the length of an erection.  No more.
"I don't ask why patients lie, I just assume they all do."
House

Hawk

Liam,

I think you posts are clear for someone that follows all of them, but I am not sure they are for the occasional reader or person that quickly scans through posts.  Tell me if I understand correctly?

I think when you are saying you have regained your length as a result of 20 or 30 min of traction with heat a few times a week, you are only talking about how loose you hang in the flaccid state and not about real change in penis size as indicated by the size of a fully erect penis.  Its limit of stretch are unchanged.

If this is true, I think the "regain length" statement is unintentially misleading since this does not represent any increase in the scar tissue's maximum range of stretch.  It only means that it temporarily relaxes a flaccid penis.  It makes it hang as a larger percentage of the restricted erect size that was imposed by Peyronies Disease.  This may be a plus for a personal sense of well-being or as a confidence boost in a locker room.  I do think however, that this is totally different than the claims made for traction, totally different than what most hope for out of traction, and different than the focus by urologists that are investigating traction.  

I do not think most members would consider spending the money and time on a recommended traction program for a 4 1/2" dangle instead of a 3" turtle-effect if it had no impact on their 5" erection which had been 7" before Peyronies Disease.
Prostatectomy 2004, radiation 2009, currently 70 yrs old
After pills, injections, VED - Dr Eid, Titan 22cm implant 8/7/18
Hawk - Updated 10/27/18 - Peyronies Society Forums

Liam

You got it right mostly.  There may actually be improvement when erect.   Because I have inconsistent erections thanks to PC, it's hard to tell.  I'm not where I was 3 years ago.  Neither am I where I was last year.

The cost of the device I use is about $50 on eBay.  You'll spend that much on a night out.  Twice a week 20-30 min isn't bad either.  I am convinced, at this point, this is the best chance to regain size without the problems that go along with wearing a traction device all day.

QuoteIf this is true, I think the "regain length" statement is unintentionally misleading since this does not represent any increase in the scar tissue's maximum range of stretch.

Actually I think, based on self observation and evaluation, there is reshaping of scar tissue.  I cannot offer indisputable evidence.  But, I believe what I'm saying to be true.  :)  

Be skeptical and decide for yourself, though.
"I don't ask why patients lie, I just assume they all do."
House

Hawk

Quote from: Liam on October 01, 2007, 06:35:15 PM
Actually I think, based on self observation and evaluation, there is reshaping of scar tissue.  I cannot offer indisputable evidence.  But, I believe what I'm saying to be true.  :)  

Be skeptical and decide for yourself, though.

I believe whatever you say, it is just that you never really said your erections are larger or that your curve is less.  You mostly address the "turtle effect" improving and then add that you "have regained length".  We just needed a clarification.
Prostatectomy 2004, radiation 2009, currently 70 yrs old
After pills, injections, VED - Dr Eid, Titan 22cm implant 8/7/18
Hawk - Updated 10/27/18 - Peyronies Society Forums

Liam

I see what you mean, Hawk.  I am afraid to make too many claims because I hate getting hopes up to have them possibly dashed.  I am going to lay it on the line here.

For those guys new here, we use the term "turtle effect" to mean a contration of penile tissue during a flaccid state.  For me this meant my penis would not rest in an up or down position.  It contracted to the point of the head always resting against the area around the zipper.  It was very uncomfortable and I was always adjusting it.  I am now back to normal as judged by my comfort level.  I have never measured my penis with a ruler, so I have nothing with which to compare.

Erection is a different story.  I was diagnosed with my first (of many now) plaque at the same time I was diagnosed with prostate cancer.  After having a radical retropubic prostatectomy, and no erections for about 9 months the Peyronies Disease got worse (multiple plaques covering entire TA).  At that point erections were not "useable".  After two years (in July) of viagra, l-arginine and all the other supplements we all try, I had marked improvementin erections, but still not great.  When I pumped with the VED, I would hit the same mark on my scratched up VED  ;)  I am now hitting a mark farther down the tube consistently.  Could be for other reasons of which I'm not aware.  By the principle of parsimony, I am crediting the traction as I have been off all Peyronies Disease supplements and meds for several months.  I have been on prednisone twice, Feldene, and Skelaxin for disc problems during this time.  These treatments cannot be discounted as having an impact on the condition.

So, yes the contraction problem has had the biggest day to day impact on my quality of life.  I was miserable before.  It was worth 10 times more than I paid if I only got rid of that.  However, because of the new "notch" on my VED  :) , I am confident of improvement in erection length.  It may just be straighter causing it to slide farther down the tube.  But, the base to tip measure is greater when measured on the tube.

As a side comment, I tried Viagra 100 mg the other day (first in a long time because of headaches) and got a full (the glans was engorged) erection (although curved) for the first time in two years.  I don't believe I can credit this to traction and it must be considered when weighing the evidence.

I am skeptical of my own results.  I also worry that if I stop what I'm doing I may regress.  This is just one persons account.  Yes, I am the first to say self reporting is not always accurate.  Thats why I hesitate to say anything.  This is not a cure and I do NOT believe it will make the plaque go away.  It has appeared to help as much as anything I've tried, though.  And, who knows what things will look like in a year.  Weigh all opinions and evidence before you try anything.  Do not just take my word.  READ READ READ on the subject.  Do not over stretch.  Do not over heat.  Be careful!!!

Bottom line, worth a try.

Thanks for encouraging me to delve into this a little deeper, Hawk.

By the way, I'm getting a CT done today to evaluate for sinus surgery.  I have sinus headaches and all the erection meds give me unbearable headaches.  I told my ENT I'm ready to have surgery on my nose so I can have sex again. ;D
"I don't ask why patients lie, I just assume they all do."
House

dahc

Traction hasn't really changed my flaccid hang, but I've not had a problem with the turtle effect yet. I was getting checked out by my uro the other day he was looking at my circumcision scar, there appears to be a small white band of NEW skin from the scar going towards the glans. Not a lot but as Dr. Levine says in his webcast that repair may come at "glacial speed". So I'll keep stretching. ;)
Dahc

Hitman

liam, I'm just curious did the thought of surgery come across at any particular time?

Liam

Surgery is not an option for me because of ED.  :(  I am seeing some improvement especially when I use Viagra.  However, unless something changes, I will not have surgery.

Because the onset of my Peyronies Disease exactly coincided with PC and subsequent surgery, some of my circumstances are different than some other men.  There are a few other men here who had prostate surgery.

Post prostatectomy patients experience "shrinkage" even without Peyronies Disease.  Mild traction with heat in combination with VED usage could possibly prevent that.  Of course that is a total hypothesis on my part.  It's too easy and relatively safe not to consider, though.

dahc said:
Quotethere appears to be a small white band of NEW skin from the scar going towards the glans.
Do you think this is related to traction?  Is the skin binding or restricting your erection (causing a curve) or like a skin tag or something different?  What did your doctor think it was?
QuoteI've not had a problem with the turtle effect yet
I think the heat/stretching is only reversing the shrinkage.  In other words, I believe, at this point, there are changes in the shape of the plaque.  It's still there in the same quantity (subjectively assessed).  I am not ruling out any possibility, though.  Maybe I'm just stretching normal tissue.  The result, though, is less discomfort :D
"I don't ask why patients lie, I just assume they all do."
House

Hitman

hmm how does ED prevent you from getting say a penile implant?

Liam

AAAAAHHHHHH  I thought you meant "curve correcting" surgery.  ED is the reason to have an implant.  I haven't given up hope on non surgical means.  

However, Right now I am focused on Traction bandwagon.  Let's go over to the surgery topic for more discussion on that  ;)

"I don't ask why patients lie, I just assume they all do."
House

Old Man

Hey guys:

This is in the for what it is worth department relative penile implant surgery. Even if one has Peyronies Disease, ED and maybe other sexual problems, penile implant surgery should be the "last resort" consideration. My reason for this is: why risk the uncertainty of getting real good erections with the implant which removes all the erectile tissue from the corpus areas. There is no "going back" after implant surgery.

Good erections can be had with the VED by simply pumping up and placing the retainer ring(s) on the base of the penis. If this fails to give good erections, and the known ED drugs are not successful, then and then only consider implant surgery. In my counseling work with the ACS and a local uro group, we have found that the VED method works much better than the surgery route. My mother-in-law's last husband had implant surgery done at age 75 and it was very successsful, but this was done after all else had failed to help him with ED.

The above is just the considered personal opinion of the writer and does not imply what any individual should or should not do.

Old Man

Hawk: You might want to move this post to another better related topic if you deem necessary.
Age 92. Peyronies Disease at age 24, Peyronies Disease after
stage four radical prostatectomy in 1995, Heart surgery 2004 with three bypasses/three stents.
Three more stents in 2016. Hiatal hernia surgery 2017 with 1/3 stomach reduction. Many other surgeries too.

amigo

So, I got the FastSize 2 weeks ago - and having examined it fairly closely, I suspect that some of the less expensive brands out there probably work just as well... it isn't a terribly complicated piece of machinery.  THAT SAID... I started having a lot more nightime erections during the first week of use, and now after two weeks I'm having spontaneous erections during the day as well (something that had been a fairly rare occurence during the past 5 years or so).  Now, if the plaque would soften a little maybe I could enjoy those erections more and take a pass on the mild but annoying accompanying pain.  I usually have it on for about an hour or so at a stretch (pun intended) at which point the discomfort rises to a level where I feel it necessary to take a break.  Their recommended schedule has you build up from an hour or two a day up to 8 hours a day (with numerous breaks) over the first month (I'm currently at about 4 hours daily).

I use the hot water shower massage head to apply heat for five or ten minutes a couple times a day before strapping in and think that it helps quite a bit (I'm pulling for continued success of Liam's heat/traction REGIMEN).  I also VED for about a half an hour most days and apply heat to the plaque area through the cylinder using a cheap little infrared massager a couple times a week and take 90mg of pycnogenol a day (see supplements thread for more info).  And while I don't want to get too excited yet, I've gotten about half an inch back of the inch I lost as the result of my plaque hardening significantly this summer.  Only time will tell if things will continue to improve (or even maintain).  So far the curve remains, but one member with Peyronies on the FastSize forums (and apparently a patient of Dr. Levine) has been using traction for about a year and notes that while he can still feel the plaque upon palpation, his curve and hourglassing have been largely eliminated.  My own hourglassing also seems notably better already.  These multiple early improvements certainly help keep me motivated and optimistic.  I'm looking forward to getting a glimpse of Dr. Levine's complete research when it is published.  

Liam

I had mentioned noticing increased apparent length while using the Heat/Traction Regimen (H/TR) due to regained length, less curve, a combination of the two, and/or more pliability).  I noticed because of scratches accidentally made on the VED and my hitting a new mark  :).  I got to thinking this may be a good objective measure of improvement.  Use a marker.  Easy and clear.

BTW, I'm posting this under traction since the improvements (NOT CURE) I'm seeing are due to the Heat/Traction Regimen (H/TR).  I guess it is good no matter what treatment or combination of treatments you are using.

I was thinking, for the DIY crowd, all you really need is a large ID washer, a turnbuckle, a thick rubberband and a welding machine  :o  Oh yeah....and a vivid imagination  ;D
"I don't ask why patients lie, I just assume they all do."
House

PainIsGrowth

Hey Guys,
I just read through the old traction reports and I'm blown away by Amigo's account of improvement.  "THAT SAID... I started having a lot more nightime erections during the first week of use, and now after two weeks I'm having spontaneous erections during the day as well (something that had been a fairly rare occurence during the past 5 years or so)."

This is nothing short of amazing.  I have considering buying the FastSize to combat my fibrosis and E.D., but was worried it might worsen the E.D.  Most of the reports I've read on other forum's are usually positive, with people thinking their erections are harder after a few weeks.  Liam or anyone else who has used a traction device, have you noticed your erections are more spontaneous during the day, or have better NTE's?  Has anyone noticed any subjective improvements like increased penile sensitivity or increased libido since using it?  Please keep posting results of traction here, because its been a great resource for obscure information.  

amigo

PainisGrowth - While I'm certainly happy with the results thus far, I'm still only about 3 weeks into the program and am STILL nervous about long-term side effects of traction.  So far so good, but it is also a total pain in the ass to have to conceal at work and to have to run to the restroom to change in and out of every hour or so.  I'm sure that someone at the office is eventually going to ask if I've developed a really bad case of the runs lately.  

They say you can wear it up to 2 hours at a time, but I'm usually uncomfortable around the hour mark and am not at all interested in developing a case of gangrene in the head of my penis (but that's just me).  There are a couple of real encouraging posters in the FastSize forums, but there is another who has been doing it a little longer than I have and has yet to see much improvement.  

I'm still not ready to publicly endorse the product (in spite of the lucrative endorsement offers and the clamor of the masses), but I posted my initial results here as an anecdote.  I REALLY want to see the little bit of research done by Dr. Levine - has anyone heard an update on when it will be available?

To anyone who DOES try the fastsize, I highly recommend following the slow build-up of daily hours as suggested... don't rush and don't stretch if it hurts.  While I appreciate your alias here... sometimes Pain is NOT growth, but instead, permanent irreparable damage.  Also, I suggest putting a layer or two of something between the foam covered noose at the end of the contraption and your foreskin. I found a roll of some kind of tissue-thin yellow foam and a separate roll of 3M  self-adhering wrap at Walgreens Pharmacy and wrap a layer of each (in that order) around the area where the noose makes contact with the shaft prior to strapping into the fastsize.

dahc

When I had my telephone consultation with Dr. Levine in May of this year he had completed just completed his 10 man pilot study using the FastSize extender. The results were a 10 - 30 degree improvement in curve with 1/4 to 3/4 length gain. Most men reported gains in girth and improvement in hourglass deformity. He told me the guys that were able to wear it the longest tended to get the best results. The pilot test lasted for 6 months. Although I'm not aware of a published study, what I gave above is a summary of what he has written on another website in the "Ask The Doctor" section.

Also he talks about his pilot study on a webcast "Non-Surgical Treatments for Peyronie's"
http://webcasts.prous.com/AUA2007/article.asp?AID=87&CID=YY&CLID=2
Scroll down the Home Page until you find the title and click on the link.  

Liam

I am not claiming anyone will have the same results.  My case is unique in that I'm 2 1/4 years post prostate surgery and I'm supposed to have improvement in erections.  I also have a large amount of plaque.  To the point, I measured my two marks on the VED.  I have recorded almost 1/2 inch in regained erection length.  :) :) :) I do not notice any change in girth, but I don't measure.  I also don't have any measure of erection without the VED.  It appears to have improved, but no objective measure.

Again, even though the measure is accurate, the results may be confounded by other variables.  I am, of course, encouraged by the results and will continue.  I guess I'm typical in that after measuring I thought of increasing to three times a week with the regimen.  But, I decided not to change something that seems to be helping.  Extra time may start to damage tissue.  Right now, no problems.  :) :) :)  

BTW, I never had a problem with sensitivity.  I can't comment on that other than to say no change.
"I don't ask why patients lie, I just assume they all do."
House

wolfr

I am new to this message board, but I thought I would share my experience with Peyronies Disease and traction.

I developed Peyronies Disease in June of 2007.  My deformity is characterized by a moderate upward curve of ~30-35 degrees.  I also have a small indentation near the base of my penis, but no hourglass deformity.   I previously had some dull aching in the shaft of my penis, but the pain has more or less resolved.  I am still pretty functional, but I was quite concerned about the possibility of progression of my Peyronies Disease so I sought medical attention for this problem.

I had a consultation with Dr. John Mulhall (in NYC) in July of 2007 and began intralesional verapamil injections in August of 2007.  Dr. Mulhall's treatment regimen consists of 6 sets of injections, each treatment is separated by 2 weeks. Dr. Mulhall described the goal of this therapy to be stabilization of the plaques.  He was careful to say that I should not expect the injections to reverse my deformity.

After my third set of intralesional verapamil injections,  I became aware of Dr. Larry Levine's study of penile traction to modify the penile deformity of Peyronies Disease.  I corresponded with Dr. Levine, who urged me to use the Fastsize Extender in conjunction with the intralesional injections I was receiving from Dr. Mulhall.  

I obtained a Fastsize  Extender and began to use it after my fourth set of injections. I have been using the Fastsize Extender now for about 4 weeks.  I started slowly. I currently wear the device ~7 hours per day, stretching gently, just beyond my erectile length.  

I agree with the comments that using the device in a work environment is challenging.  I have located a men's room at my office that is rarely used, so I go there to apply and remove the device.  

After my second set of injections (prior to using the Fastsize device), the widest and hardest part of my plaque (associated with the indentation in my penis) developed a series of egg-shell-like cracks after Dr. Mulhall injected in this area.  The area became tender immediately after the second set of injections.

Subsequent to using the Fastsize Extender, the egg-shell-like cracks in my plaque began to soften noticeably and the tenderness resolved.  The geometry of my plaque has changed in that it is now more linear and more narrow that it was prior to use of traction.  This change in geometry is especially true of the area that previously had the egg-shell-like cracks.  Coincident with the change in geometry of my plaque, my stretched flaccid length has increased ~0.5-1.0 cm.  I can no longer feel the egg-shell-like cracks.  My assumption is that this was a local area of calcification that may have resolved.

It is difficult for me to say whether my deformity has changed.  It clearly has not worsened, and at times I convince myself that there has been slight improvement in both the indentation and curvature.

My plan is to finish my series of intralesional verapamil injections (last treatment is this week) then use the Fastsize Extender for another 3 months prior to photographing my erection to compare it to my baseline.  I am, however, encouraged by the change in shape and texture of my plaque.  Based on what I have read about traction in Peyronies Disease, I do not expect a noticeable change in my deformity until I have used the device for at least 3-6 months.