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Author Topic: caffeine vs Pentox  (Read 5468 times)

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ryanchan

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caffeine vs Pentox
« on: November 07, 2014, 06:07:05 PM »

I was looking through the forum on mentions of caffeine, and found that people are cutting down on it. However, when you look up pentox, its in the same family as a Methylxanthines. Wouldn't it be logical to therefore use both to increase probability of healing?

Does anybody have experience with comparing the two are testing either effectiveness?
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james1947

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Re: caffeine vs Pentox
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2014, 06:31:27 PM »

I never read about the subject, but for me had/have no difference with coffee or not. Drinking 4 cups a day, not strong, no sugar or milk. I stopped drinking coffee for one month, no difference.
Same with the not healthy gaseous cold drinks that have caffeine, but not Red Bull, Monster, etc'

James
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Age 71, Peyronies from Jan 2009 following penis fracture during sex. Severe Erectile Dysfunction.
Lost 2" length and a lot of girth. Late start, still VED, Cialis & Pentox helped. Prostate surgery 2014.
Got amazing support on the forum

NeoV

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Re: caffeine vs Pentox
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2014, 11:57:35 PM »

For the most part Ryan it appears yes.

2014 study, caffeine prevents liver fibrosis via blocking TGF-β.
"Our results show that caffeine prevents experimental cirrhosis; the mechanisms of action are associated with its antioxidant properties and mainly by its ability to block the elevation of the profibrogenic cytokine transforming growth factor-β, which may be associated with attenuation of the inflammatory and fibrotic processes."
Caffeine prevents experimental liver fibrosis by blocking the expre... - PubMed - NCBI

2008 study
"caffeine inhibits TGF-beta-stimulated connective tissue growth factor expression"
Pharmacological application of caffeine inhibits TGF-beta-stimulate... - PubMed - NCBI

There are actually a handful of studies on caffeine and TGF-β and the fibrotic response, all of which are fascinating.
Identification of paraxanthine as the most potent caffeine-derived ... - PubMed - NCBI
Connective tissue growth factor: a fibrogenic master switch in fibr... - PubMed - NCBI
Identification of paraxanthine as the most potent caffeine-derived ... - PubMed - NCBI
About coffee, cappuccino and connective tissue growth factor-Or how... - PubMed - NCBI

Perhaps our ancestors drank too much coffee and tea and ate too much chocolate! Even more frightening, is that perhaps our overindulgence in caffeine / theobromine has caused our bodies to overreact in it's fibrotic response in this lifetime. So what do we do, quit coffee, or move on up to 4+ cups a day? Since my Peyronie's started to get bad when I was on massive stimulants, how exactly should I take this information?

Bear in mind that caffeine has some bad effects on the urinary and gastrointestinal tract as well as the prostate. Anyone with crohn's should avoid it as far as I understand. In the meantime, I'm off to the library (raises mug).  ;)

ryanchan

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Re: caffeine vs Pentox
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2014, 11:24:16 PM »

Wow,

Thank you both.

NeoV, you really did some extensive research in the matter. As you said, there's pros and cons to caffeine, and I would assume its the same with pentox. I just can't decide on what to do, cut down on coffee or increase it?

My personal experience, is that caffeine tends to stabilize my penis; Meaning it somewhat gets rid of the hard flaccid making it softer. At the same time, the caffeine seems to reduce the amount of blood in the sponge material (i.e. reduces natural sexual stamina)

As a person who goes to the gym allot, I also have been told that caffeine burns out the adrenal glands, which is not healthy for the bodies natural processes. I have experienced it first had that when I cycle off the caffeine, after a month my body is more energized, with more stamina.

Considering Pentox and Caffeine are the same family, I'm curious to know what to do in our case ... the peyronies case ... suggestions?

I'll continue to do my research
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NeoV

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Re: caffeine vs Pentox
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2014, 12:10:42 AM »

Effect of caffeine on response of rabbit isolated corpus cavernosum... - PubMed - NCBI
Caffeine relaxes smooth muscle through actin depolymerization. - PubMed - NCBI
Effect of caffeine on erectile function via up-regulating cavernous... - PubMed - NCBI

^ ^ ^ Caffeine appears to relax the penile smooth muscle, improve erectile quality, and as seen above, reduce tgf-beta.

The whole picture would require a larger review or studies on Peyronie's specifically, but from the initial look, caffeine's research profile looks very great. People drink multiple cups of coffee all throughout their lives without suffering from any real issues as far as I know, and the same goes for tea drinkers. If you are taking PWOs before working out, be very aware of the milligrams you're ingesting of not only caffeine, but all other stimulants in the product. I don't recommend ever using PWOs if you are a regular coffee drinker, just time your coffee wisely.

Ryan do you take pentox? Personally I'd say enjoy your coffee within reasonable limits, I certainty am!

You have to wonder what kind of results would come out of a pentox vs caffeine pill study on Peyronie's. Likely not going to happen.

skunkworks

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Re: caffeine vs Pentox
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2014, 11:02:25 PM »

The short term negative effect on insulin sensitivity is what worries me about caffeine and inflammation. It is all over the place though, short term bad for insulin, long term correlates with less diabetes. The former is from interventional studies, the latter from epidemiological though so there is a bit of a problem comparing the two.

Then we have:

Associations between coffee consumption and inflammatory markers in healthy persons: the ATTICA study

Effects of caffeine on the inflammatory response induced by a 15-km... - PubMed - NCBI
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NeoV

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Re: caffeine vs Pentox
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2014, 08:30:03 PM »

Seems to be hard to say. I have low blood sugar and I always felt like coffee made it worse. It also constricts blood vessels and I can't see how that would be good. I guess my advice would be to try having it and try not having it, but don't get stuck in an on and off loose dependence.

james1947

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Re: caffeine vs Pentox
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2014, 05:06:39 AM »

I was advised by a neurologist back when I was suffering from migraines to drink coffee because is dilating the blood vessels.
He told me that the headache is caused by the blood flowing true the narrowing veins.
From experience, it really helped.
From what I am reading on this topic seems to be the opposite from what he explained me.

James   
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Age 71, Peyronies from Jan 2009 following penis fracture during sex. Severe Erectile Dysfunction.
Lost 2" length and a lot of girth. Late start, still VED, Cialis & Pentox helped. Prostate surgery 2014.
Got amazing support on the forum

Skjaldborg

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Re: caffeine vs Pentox
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2014, 12:13:17 PM »

James,

I think you might have that backwards: caffeine is a vasoconstricter, making veins and capillaries smaller. Migraines are caused by vasodilation, veins getting larger. That's why headache pills sometimes have caffeine, it shrinks the veins and helps reduce the migraine.

-Skjald
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james1947

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Re: caffeine vs Pentox
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2014, 06:24:39 PM »

Thanks Skjald for the explanation.
In any case, I have no more migraine after Chinese herbal tea treatment.

James
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Age 71, Peyronies from Jan 2009 following penis fracture during sex. Severe Erectile Dysfunction.
Lost 2" length and a lot of girth. Late start, still VED, Cialis & Pentox helped. Prostate surgery 2014.
Got amazing support on the forum

muffslayer

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Re: caffeine vs Pentox
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2015, 10:17:10 PM »

I'm surprised a lot of people here don't notice anything with caffeine.

When I drink caffeine my penis gets and looks much worse, and I start to feel slight rawness and pain.

I've noticed this with other things as well, such as ephedrine (only took once), sea kelp, and pregnenolone, selegiline, minoxidil.

My penis has been very sensitive after the whole DMSO fiasco (I never recommend you do it). But having a sensitive penis at least tells me without a doubt which things to avoid in peyronies recovery, and which things to take. Caffeine I wouldn't recommend.

I think anything that stimulates too much adrenaline in me worsens my peyronies. And I can recreate this effect with 2-3 cups of tea.

As for positives. I notice 1200mg Coq10 and 1000mg l-carnitine (fumarate form doctors best), produce great feel good erections. Also spinach does by itself (it contains nitrates which convert to nitric oxide!), and I try to add turmeric, ginger, chilli powder to help with inflammatory. Also spinach contains a lot of magnesium, and ionic magnesium has been paramount to my recovery, my top supplement. Also taking high doses of vitamin c (2g) cause me to have great erections too.

Lastly cold showers definitely make my penis softer and help with inflammation

Anyway it's too soon to tell as always, mainly because I never seem to stick to my supplements or diet. However I feel a bit more determined because of my new years resolution to lose weight, and also eat spinach everyday. So I think if I stick to these regularly, I may be able to recover. If it's possible for people to truly recover rather than prevent getting worse. Because when I say feel good erections. They're strong erections that feel good, healthy, like 0% inflammation. Also they look healthy, like my penis is inflated to the max, and the head is shiny. And of course they are very strong. But I think I will only see a difference if I can stick to taking my supplements, taking spices, and eating spinach everyday for a couple of months. Anyway I think spices are a good way to go, don't discount them just because they're not a supplement.

Everyday:
l-carnitine
coq10
ionic magnesium
vitamin c
gotu kola

0.5-1kg spinach (1kg of frozen spinach cost me £1.39, and is only 213 calories!)
half a teaspoon of turmeric
half a teaspoon of black pepper
half a teaspoon of ginger
Add some chilli/cayenne

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james1947

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Re: caffeine vs Pentox
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2015, 03:45:08 AM »

I will say again, have/had no problems with moderate coffee.
Regarding vitamin C, I read an article saying that our body can process only 500 mg. More than that daily is simply ejected out in our urine. Sorry, I din't save the article.

James
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Age 71, Peyronies from Jan 2009 following penis fracture during sex. Severe Erectile Dysfunction.
Lost 2" length and a lot of girth. Late start, still VED, Cialis & Pentox helped. Prostate surgery 2014.
Got amazing support on the forum

Nemo

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Re: caffeine vs Pentox
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2015, 09:44:08 AM »

muffslayer, over many years on these forums, it's been my experience that some people are very, very sensitive to each and every supplement, medication, food item and drink that goes in their mouth.  Some perceive noticeable impact one-day into a new supplement, while some go a year and never see/feel/experience anything. 

Some of this has to do with the power of suggestion or perception, I'm sure, but some, no doubt, has to do with our individual systems, and how well we absorb or utilize what goes through our gut. 

I wouldn't be too concerned that others don't see the same impact you do from caffeine - just chalk it up to the wealth of human experience and go with what works for you specifically. If caffeine makes your Peyronies Disease seem worse, then by all means, avoid it. Even if it's a perception thing, it's not worth the stress. 

Best,
Nemo
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BrianZotto

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Re: caffeine vs Pentox
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2015, 05:30:01 PM »

Gotu kola stimulates collagen-production as does ginger to a certain extent. Should herbs/supplements/foods that stimulate collagen-production be avoided altogether or is it okay to use them/use the once in a while?

I ask because of I have several herbs that stimulate collagen production but are also beneficial for other penile-related issues(ashwagandha, gotu kola, sarsaparilla).

Ashwagandha helps with erections but also stimulates collagen-production(to what extent I don't know). Gotu kola is good for circulation(but produces collagen), sarsaparilla is great for minor pain, increasing nitric oxide, but has a collagen producing effect.

Is there a definitive guide on this site that details an ideal diet/supplement regimen for treating this disease?

Quote deleted by moderator - James
Please read the forum rules!!!
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NeoV

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Re: caffeine vs Pentox
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2016, 04:53:12 PM »

A new study in February 2016 showed that 2 cups of coffee a day halves one's risk of liver fibrosis.

HCV New Drug Research : Coffee consumption and the risk of cirrhosis

I made a studies thread for coffee in the resource library to consolidate the links I've posted in this thread.

james1947

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Re: caffeine vs Pentox
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2016, 09:06:43 PM »

So basically, with 6 to 8 cups per day (2 gram each, Nestle), my two plaques supposed to go away long time ago.
But they didn't  :(
And the coffee makes me sleepy  :(

James
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Age 71, Peyronies from Jan 2009 following penis fracture during sex. Severe Erectile Dysfunction.
Lost 2" length and a lot of girth. Late start, still VED, Cialis & Pentox helped. Prostate surgery 2014.
Got amazing support on the forum

skunkworks

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Re: caffeine vs Pentox
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2016, 09:24:52 PM »

Thing about coffee is it might be useful as a preventative but when you read about how adenosine works and what it does, it probably won't help much if at all at the chronic stage.
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Steveo

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Re: caffeine vs Pentox
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2016, 02:56:30 PM »

I gave up on coffee (in favor of a cup of green tea every day or so) and it has helped me quite a bit.

I believe that, despite the possible anti-fibrotic benefits of coffee, the vasoconstricting effects were shrinking my penis into a tiny little nub for most of the day which didn't help with healing.  Also, I was going through emotional highs and lows over the course of the day which have evened out considerably since I stopped, making my life much more tolerable :)

In my short amount of time on pentox, I don't remember it having the same effect.
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Laveley

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Re: caffeine vs Pentox
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2016, 03:22:01 PM »

A new study in February 2016 showed that 2 cups of coffee a day halves one's risk of liver fibrosis.

Well, I drink at least 2 cups of coffee since i remember myself and that seems to not helped at all...

Also, never noticed (never thought that could be any relation either) any correlation between all the coffee that i drink and my dick....

Cafeine is a interesting chemical... now and them you always see studies relating it to pretty much anything related to human health, from cancer to alzheimer and now, guess what, even peyronies. I guess we will never found out if its a villain or a hero.

Meanwhile, i will go make me some cup of coffe  ;)
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