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[29mUK]

Q10 Cellulite Gel-Cream - The NIVEA Shop

I'm sure there are dozens of similar creams ^, here is just a link to the first one that popped up on a google search.

I was doing some reading on here about CO Q10/Ubiquinol & recalled a post where someone suggested piercing a Vitamin E softgel & massaging the stuff onto our plaques. I got to thinking - wouldn't it be great to combine a heap of these supplements into a cream which could be applied directly to the penis, rather than popping more pills? Hence, I stumbled across this.

Anyone tried it? Or something similar?

[melting]

Im transporting different substances with the help of DMSO(big topic in this subforum) directly into my dick. So far the palgues feel better.

I think that the problem with the penis and tunica is that hasnt enough blood flow(in some cases) to heal properly like for example an elbow.

So eating all these supplements might be a drop on a hot stone(in some cases).

Im right now motivated to combine some Ubiquinol and acetyl l carnitine together with dmso and some castor oil into a topical solution.

[UrsusMinor]

I use Acetyl L-Carnitine as a topical ointment. I buy the pure amino acid powder and mix it with coconut oil, then just lube up with it. If nothing else, it feels good--both at the time, and then later.

I don't just buy Acetyl L-Carnitine capsules and mix them in, as the capsules invariably contain a variety of fillers that I don't necessarily want on my skin. You can order ALC as a pure powder.

I used DMSO at first, but realized it wasn't really necessary. Carnitines are fairly well absorbed without DMSO, and I didn't see that the DMSO was giving me benefits itself.

I don't think that Ubiquinol/CoQ10 can be transported through the skin (although some of it is absorbed into the outer layers of the skin). The molecule is simply too large, with a molecular weight of 800-900 depending on the form.

As to DMSO plus castor oil, I really have never understood the logic. Some of the elements of castor oil absorb directly through the skin, and it's not actually clear that you want the other elements absorbed. In fact, it's not clear that more is better in terms of the amount of castor oil you take into the body. The mechanism of castor oil's effects are poorly studied!

I sometimes use castor oil packs (Google it), which have the advantage of castor oil plus heat. These make me feel good. Whether they are helping my condition isn't clear.

[skunkworks]

Hey that is a very interesting idea, an ALC topical. How did you decide which oil to use? I just tried to dissolve some pure ALC powd into coconut oil and it did not dissolve...

The 5 alpha reductase enzyme (which converts testosterone to DHT) is inhibited by certain fatty acids that coconut oil is high in. Do you think dht inhibition could be a problem for a Peyronie's penis?

[UrsusMinor]

Hi, Skunkworks. ALC is quite soluble in water and alcohols, but relatively insoluble in fats. So what I have is probably closer to a 'suspension'. What I do is get the coconut oil warm (about a quarter cup), add about 4 grams of ALC powder, and mix, mix, mix until the "granularity" is pretty much gone. (When I encounter little clumps I crush them with my fingers.)

I use coconut oil because, frankly, I like it. It seems to relax me, and it's one of the few times I can check on my plaque without discomfort.

Carnitines are reasonably well-absorbed into the skin. If I were really giving absorption top priority, of course, I'd probably go back to the DMSO.

Your question about 5-alpha reductase inhibition is interesting. Coconut oil does contain lauric acid, which is the same molecule most research suggests is the active component in an saw palmetto, and saw palmetto is of course often taken to control prostate enlargement.

Erectile Dysfunction is often associated with pharmaceutical 5-alpha reductase agents, particuarly the powerful steroidal agents such as Propecia and Avodart.

Lauric acid, of course, is a nonsteroidal 5-alpha reductase inhibitor. Other non-steroidal inhibitors include green tea, curcumin, zinc, roboflavin, some omega-3 fatty acids.

Medline Plus from the NIH reports:

"Saw palmetto is LIKELY SAFE for most people. Side effects are usually mild. Some people have reported dizziness, headache, nausea, vomiting, constipation, and diarrhea. Some people have reported that saw palmetto causes impotence. But these side effects do not seem to occur any more often with saw palmetto than with a sugar pill."
 
I suspect this applies to coconut oil as well. But if you want a real load of what I call 'Google Garbage,' Google >> coconut oil impotence << . In just a page or two you'll find people who are absolutely convinced coconut oil causes impotence, right alongside people who claim it cures it. Hilarious.

Overall, keeping a little bit of testosterone from converting to DHT strikes me as probably beneficial, and I view the body's Test/DHT balance as a bodywide issue anyway, not confined to the penis. But I could be wrong, and would be happy to hear from anyone who has some insights on this.

Keep me posted on how you approach the problem.

(And, meanwhile, I'm still taking 2 grams of ALC orally as well. I'm using the topical as a supplement, not a replacement!)

[melting]

I will get the pure ALC powder. THKS for suggestion.

Thackers and Castor: I just guess that the idea is that DMSO will help it to go even deeper. More is more approach.The formula feels good but I think a supp like ALC which is proven to work for Peyronies Disease might be more usefull...

______

Ubiquinol has a weight of 864 D
According to this list:  DMSO, DMSO based Solutions and TOPICAL Treatments - Peyronies Society Forums [Page 4]
it might penetrate. But Im not sure on his sources and didnt find anything about the max molecular weight dmso will transport.
I might ask someone who is associated with Dr Jacobs.
(DMSO Literature ) Would be a bummer to waste the expensive ubiquinol. I might ramp it up orally instead..

I mixed it in a 70%DMSO Solution with ALC and applied it with a white cloth and a (safe)plastic wrap.
There is some white residue floating atop the solution. Not sure if its filler or the Ubiquinol.
ALC is very easy dissolved.
_______
Would you say that it makes sense to combine water soluable supplements in one batch and fat soluable in another batch(to then cycle both batches)?
OR asked other way around. Would mixing water soluable supps with oils make them harder to absorb?

I plan to push the supps that might help through the skin and also take them oraly.
I already observed that constant DMSO+X(like ALC,vit C) applied via a wrap(white cloth + safe plastic wrap) does soften my hard plagues considerably.
But once I stop it and wait some days they harden again(!!).
Oral supplementation does not do much in the same context and any results reported seemed to take many months. For me it seems like a drop on a hot stone.
BTW I have no problems at all with the DMSO. I only got some skin problems when I used it in a above 90% solution.(of course Im very strict with cleanliness, anyone reading about DMSO..inform yourself thoroughly)

Im pretty sure that these nasty buggers need a constant attack on them. I think its very crucial.
_
Im using a waterpump(bathmate) to help with some circulation and straightening. I might add some ALC to the water if it enters the body without a agent.(do cant be used in the pump as the plastic is not safe for it).

Glad there is someone who digs a bit deeper into Peyronies Disease! I hope I dont ask too much

[skunkworks]

Thanks for that post UrsusMinor. Yeah that is basically exactly how I tried and got the same result. Will use this for a while and see how it goes.

Might think about using a water based ALC and MSM mix at some point, that might penetrate quite well.

[UrsusMinor]

Hi, Skunkworks--

Yeah, water-based is essentially more logical for both ALC and MSM given their solubility profiles. I just wanted an ointment that made my poor skin feel better, and also allowed for a mild sort of massage. And DMSO would probably be better still. I don't fear anything about DMSO. It just doesn't make my skin feel all that good, and doesn't seem to have any positive effect in and of itself. I've had excellent results in pain relief and healing from DMSO elsewhere on my body. At the moment, however, my penis isn't a big fan!

Incidentally, one of the weird aspects of DMSO is that it generally enhances absorption of both polar and non-polar molecules

So, I'm not actually doing what the chemistry would suggest as a first option. I'm doing what seems to make some sense while also making me feel more comfortable.

That said, I'm fascinated to see what results people might get with other approaches. So, rock on!

Melting,

I think you're right about Thackers.

Although everybody treats DMSO as something verging on magic, and molecular weight as if it is predictive, from what little I can tell it's all more complicated than that, and every substance would need to be studied individually and in pairs (i.e. Substance A + Solvent B). DMSO doesn't treat all comers equally, and neither does skin.

People tend to use molecular weight as a proxy for absorbability, with a cutoff of around MW 500 or so. But it actually depends on the shape of the molecule, and its charge, and how lipophilic/lipophobic the molecule is, and who knows what else. So Ubiquinol is on the high side. ALC is probably fine--and other froms of Carnitine seem to absorb fairly well. In addition, there are things that absorb into the outer layers of skin, but don;t make it all the way through.

Incidentally, one of the weird aspects of DMSO is that it generally enhances absorption of both polar and non-polar molecules. So if there were anything that would enhance the delivery of both ALC (polar) and Ubiquinol (relatively nonpolar), it would be DMSO. But there aren't really good rules of thumb, because it's complicated.

Really big molecules that might be useful locally, like Serrapeptase and Nattokinase, are definitely not absorbable. I notice that some people on this forum have thought they were because they read about special delivery methods--but those involved liposomes or other nanopackage delivery systems. That isn't going to happen with any technology I have access to!

---------------

I don't think there is any problem with mixing water-soluble and non-water soluble components...except that things may not stay in solution. If they are things the skin absorbs naturally, I'm not sure it really matter. If you really wanted to get tricky, you'd find an emulsifier so the water soluble and non-water soluble parts could co-exist. The truth is, though, emulsions are really just suspensions, so it isn't all that different from ALC in oil. (Mayonnaise is a common example--oil suspended in water, or vice-versa, in a way where it doesn't tend to separate, but isn;t truly 'dissolved' either.)

I think you are right that continuing assault is the thing to do.

I believe that ALC probably is taken up by the skin if it remains in contact long enough. Probably is sped up by DMSO. But, if you're already using hot water, I'd guess the best time to go for it is right after hot water exposure and stretching. Both of them make the skin more permeable.

Keep us posted!

[UrsusMinor]

PS--

A couple of useful articles. The first is on transdermal techniques in general:
http://www.benthamscience.com/open/toddj/articles/V001/36TODDJ.pdf

It is worth noting that in addition to DMSO, one of the absorption enhancers is lauric acid (component of coconut oil).

The article also says, however:

The most ideal penetration enhancer discovered to date is undoubtedly water. Hydration of the stratum corneum has been shown to increase the penetration of both hydrophilic and hydrophobic drugs. Hydration can be achieved by soaking the skin or using a formulation with high water content....The mechanism of action by which water increases transdermal drug penetration remains unclear.

So, water works (and hot water probably works even more), but no one is really sure why!

In addition, here's a useful bit on DMSO:

http://www.gaylordchemical.com/uploads/images/pdfs/literature/106B.pdf

And, of course, Jacobs on DMSO:

http://www.dmso.org/articles/information/herschler.htm

No one really seems to know whether something like CoQ10 is transportable through the skin by natural diffusion; or with lauric acid. With DMSO, my guess is 'probably.

Ethanol is also good at moving some things through the skin...

Sigh. SO much we don't know.

[skunkworks]

So essentially, apply after your shower. The mechanism by which water increases transdermal drug penetration is not completely unknown, it opens pores, hot water especially.

Ethanol certainly is a good vehicle, but it is not always a benign vehicle. The same can be said of DMSO if proper care is not taken with regards to contamination.

Did you ever get any skin irritation or redness from alc in coconut oil?

[UrsusMinor]

Nope, haven't had any redness from ALC/Coconut oil. In fact, I find it quite soothing. And I generally put it on after a bath or shower.

On the other hand, I found 70% DMSO to be rather irritating (even the aloe vera gel type). That hasn't been true of DMSO when I've used it elsewhere (shoulder, ankle, elbow). But apparently my penis is different from my elbow. (Who knew?)

[james1947]

apparently my penis is different from my elbow

From many points of view. 
We are using them also in a completely different way.

James

[melting]

Ursus Minor.
Regarding DMSO skin problems. Slowly upping the DMSO percentage creates some sort of adaption in my experience.
____
Wow, very valuable info espacially regarding polar and non polar!
This could mean that some parts from an oil like Castor might get transported and some maybe not. I guess that DMSO would put the chains of an oil like castor oil apart? It might even make sense to shake such a solution from time to time cause the oil is sitting above the dmso.
Also using 99% opposed to 70% creates in most cases a thermic reaction(warmer but not hot). Probably only reacting with water...

Would you say that it might still make sense to use polar and non polar in seperate batches?
Or might it be possible that two polar substances might lead to DMSO prefering one of them?
It might make then sense to saturate each supplement independently with DMSO and mix them later on or prior to application. This is a problem of convienience as it is a hassle to have to use different solutions in a glass each. At best I would like to just throw everything into one but feel like it might be not so effective. I tried it with almost all I have in small quantitites and it least had no major reaction.
Again Im just in search of a approx direction to take and no definite answer as I understand that it is complicated.

----
Im interested to find out if the absorption only happens when the DMSO is going through the skin or if the permeability is still there.
In this paper: http://journal.scconline.org/pdf/cc1968/cc019n02/p00119-p00127.pdf
It says the DMSO is moving independently of the other substance.(but Im not that literate in scientific papers :/ )

Reason is that Im unsure how to treat the DMSO+x solutions (x=vit c, alc, vit e etc..) when applying it.
Trying to find or get near a protocol how to apply DMSO Solutions that makes most sense.

I premix the solution in one glass bottle.
Right now Im applying a thin layer and then I wrap a cotton cloth which is soaked in the solution over it and then a plastic wrap over it. I then proceed to reapply some 70% DMSO over the cotton wrap every 30 minutes to drive the rest of the solution on skin and clothwrap into the skin.
I understand that there is probably no definite answer but some pointers might help..

It appears that when I do that reapplying under a plastic wrap for 1-2 hours that at some point its mostly water that is left.
___
Yup read the whole serrapeptase nano paper for hours to later find out it is a high tech product not available(yet..) bummer. So I use some of these enzymes in the morning on empty stomach. Maybe another drop on the hot stone but certainly not hurting...
___
Another question:
Local vs systemical. I fear that the supplement driven by dmso is going rather fast systemical and wont stay long enough in the penis to effect the plagues. I have no fear to cut blood-outflow for some minutes. Would that makes sense from the standpoint of holding the supplement longer localy?
___
Disclaimer: You have to be experienced with this stuff to mess with DMSO and similar things your doc wouldnt approve at all.
___
On a lighter note:
@James according to some nasty vids I came across ,on accident, it seems some dont make no difference between them.

[UrsusMinor]

A lot of these questions are way beyond anything I can answer, but they are fun to think about.

I don't think DMSO probably attacks castor oil. The triglyceride of Ricinoleic acid--the main component--is pretty stable stuff. 75-90% of castor oil is made up of this stuff. Tha leaves another 10-25% of mixed chemical oddities. One reason I'm disinclined to use DMSO in combination with castor oil is that I'd rather not transport whatever is in that 10-25% if it doesn't come in naturally. Considering the fact that castor beans (though not castor oil) contain the deadly poison Ricin, I'd just as soon not play with the parts of castor oil that aren't normally carried in. 

The active ingredient in castor oil seems to be the Ricinoleic acid. I suspect the triglyceride can't absorb through the skin, while the free Ricinoleic acid can. Therefore, castor oil works sort of like a controlled-release system.

After years of scoffing at castor oil packs, research is now showing that ricinoleic acid is a powerful antiinflammatory:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1781768/pdf/11200362.pdf

So, I'm content to use it in the traditional way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f47mYraEs9s  or http://altmedicine.about.com/cs/dietarytherapy/a/CastorOilPack.htm

---------------------

Yes, I suspect that the blood whisks away the majority of anything absorbed through the skin. But local absorption would also mean that for a time, there would be a much higher concentration of the substance locally, and usually higher local concentrations make uptake more effective.

I'd be reluctant to cut off blood flow with any sort of tourniquet--although people do it all the time. But I suppose you could increase local dwell time just by applying when you have an erection!

[skunkworks]

I've got to say this coconut oil and ALC mix does seem to be doing something, I am having stronger erections and less visible hourglassing when erect. Though of course those two could be one and the same, hourglassing less visible because of stronger erections. Flaccid hang is softer and looser, which has always been a good sign in the past.

I just got some msm so will see how a water based solution with the two goes, but so far this is looking to be a reasonably good treatment.

[UrsusMinor]

Yeah, it's hard to sort everything out, isn't it? Is it the coconut oil? Is it the ALC? Is it one or the other or both of them plus something else/ Is it just something else and neither of those? Is the change in hourglassing a change in erections, or are they two related but similar things? Or...ARRGHHH!

It can drive a person crazy, sciencewise. But if it makes me feel better, it seems like a step in the right direction. I'm interested to see what happens with your use of MSM, because that also sounds promising...and, as far as I can see, there is no downside to the mixture.

I guess if we were really smart, we'd be thinking about an emulsifier so Coconut oil + ALC + MSM could all stay in suspension like one big happy family.

We're in a crazy position here, experimenting without comprehensive science support. On, the other hand if we were in full clinical trial we might find ourselves in the Total Loser group!

Please keep us posted.

[skunkworks]

Yeah I don't feel too bad experimenting with things like ALC and MSM, there is not much risk involved. I read in a few other places that intramuscular ALC worked better than oral for other conditions, so topical for Peyronie's is no big stretch of the imagination.

And if we were just going to follow the mainstream we'd all be on vitamin E and verapimil injections and getting worse and worse with each passing year.

Edit. I probably won't try the alc+msm in a water vehicle for quite some time. ALC in coconut is feeling really really good, surprisingly so. Not sure if it is the coconut, the alc or the massage but something positive is happening so I'm just going to stick with it.

Also, I don't totally understand collagen's role in Peyronie's, but apparently MSM helps collagen production so I will avoid it for now.

[goodluck]

I just read this thread and thought why not try PABA topically?  The MW is relatively low according to the link with the list of possible substances.  It is available in bulk powder.

[UrsusMinor]

Hi, goodluck--

Sure, PABA is definitely absorbed through skin. They've even done experiments where they applied PABA to skin and measured the excretion of its byproducts to prove it is absorbed.

The PDI--not a popular organization around here, I gather--has a DMSO gel that includes PABA and MSM.

If PABA really has benefits, then topical use would make a lot more sense than the oral route, since the large amounts of PABA needed orally have problems with gastric upset and toxicity. Small, local use would avoid all that.

On the other hand, the only Peyronie's experiments with PABA that I know of succeeded in arresting disease progression, not reversing plaque. (I'm willing to be corrected on that, though.)

If I were going to try PABA, I'd definitely try it topically rather than orally.

As in many cases, I'm not sure the DMSO is needed. PABA is water soluble, as well as soluble in ethanol. Like ALC, its solubility in oil is limited, so it would have to go on as an emulsion.

The only caution I'd insert is that some people's skin is very sensitive to PABA, so it should be tested carefully before slathering it all over Mr Happy.

If you decide to pursue this, keep us posted on results!

[goodluck]

UrsusMinor,

Thanks for your feedback.

I know a number of people think MSM may make the condition worse.  I guess it all depends on what the real mechanism happening inside of someone may be.  And it may not be the same for all.

Since PABA is water/alcohol soluble it sounds pretty easy and inexpensive to make your own solution with dmso.  You can buy it in bulk powder and avoid all of the filler material which you don't need or want.  Put  it in a 1 oz tincture bottle and you can actually carry it with you and apply in the bathroom throughout the day.

I know this is a hail Mary but it may help in combination with other therapies having some  track record of helping  i.e. oral supplements like Ubiquinol, ACL, and a VED protocol.

[melting]

Nothing wrong with collagen at all.  The problem is when collagen is wrongly produced or injured. If then the body response is wrong we get scar tissue, fibroplasts. We need the good flexible collagen instead.
I dont think MSM will produce Collagen without a reason. Instead it wil laid in producing the "good" collagen.
 
With MSM Vitamin C is important. I think Vitamin C can also be transported with DMSO into the tissue.

Anyway just things I read.
Nothing new with my DMSO applications. Soft palgues good erections good feeling but still the hourglass etc.

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