Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease

[howcanthisbe]

Hawk are you trying to say Kegels can cause Peyronies? I can promise you my erections are way better then before the exercises. I have read from other people that also experience this after only a few days of the exercise. So your saying Kegels do not help increase blood flow to penis also? Do Kegels give you a harder erection?

[Hawk]

Hawk are you trying to say Kegels can cause Peyronies? I can promise you my erections are way better then before the exercises. I have read from other people that also experience this after only a few days of the exercise...

HCTB,  Read! I never said they cause Peyronies Disease.  They have nothing to do with Peyronies Disease plaque period.  They are a non-Peyronies Disease issue and as such I will not be commenting further on this subject.  This is becoming the "HCTB Cure of the Week" topic followed by admissions to setbacks and worsening of your condition.

I am not trying to be mean or rude, but I seriously wonder if you have OCD, Bi-polar, hyper-active, or related issues causing you to feel "over energized", mood and perception swings, and an erratic frame of reference?  I am very close to family members with such issues.  I also have a niece that offers counseling for such disorders, (although counseling alone is not sufficient) which is what makes me ask.

Feel free to PM me.

[howcanthisbe]

ok guys, I will take your advice. I do not think I have any mental disorders Hawk, I do think im paranoid however about curing my Peyronies Disease. Im just curious, do Kegels give you better erections though... like harder ones?

[Liam]

From Medscape Urology

Kegel Exercises and Erectile Dysfunction

Question
How effective are Kegel exercises for a patient who is suffering from ED caused by leaking veins? What additional treatments should also be considered?


Response from  Ira D. Sharlip, MD
Clinical Professor of Urology, University of California San Francisco




Kegel exercises have no efficacy in the treatment of erectile dysfunction (ED) caused by corporovenous occlusive disease (CVOD or "leaking veins") or any other abnormality[/b]. There is no significant evidence that Kegel exercises can produce any durable physiologic change that would improve erectile function.

CVOD is almost always a manifestation of another underlying cause of ED, such as cavernous arterial insufficiency or cavernous fibrosis; it is very rarely a primary cause of ED. Therefore, most cases of ED cannot be treated by treating CVOD; the underlying abnormality must be corrected, if possible.

In the rare patient whose ED is due specifically to CVOD, surgical or radiologic ablation of the specific "leaking veins" may be considered, but these patients are very rare. In the great majority of men with ED whose CVOD is a result of other pathology, an oral phosphodiesterase should be tried as first-line therapy. If this is unsuccessful, second-line therapy with intracavernous injections, intraurethral alprostadil, or vacuum devices can be tried. Third-line therapy with penile prosthesis implantation is also an option if first- and second-line therapies fail.


Posted 01/17/2003

Source:  http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/447640

[Tim468]

Dear Old Man - that was Hawk, not me, advising he not count on Kegels to help him. Liam's post helps confirm that, and God knows I agree with what they have said.

HCTB, if Kegels have given you firm erections within 4 days, then your erectile dysfunction is due to psychologic matters and not due to physiologic issues. Veins do not grow in four days, but a firmer erection for any reason may lead to some venous engorgement (and more easily observed veins than when your penis is flaccid).

Hawk, I agree with your questioning HCTB's labile manner here - it is what I was trying to tell him about how anyone might interpret another's words here (and how seriously we might take them). It is also fairly likely that chronic or acute anxiety is more likely to be happening than major mental disease. But hopefully, what HCTB can take away from us is a WAY to handle the stresses he has in his life - and develop rational strategies for handling them (like going to a doctor instead of squeezing his ass cheeks together)(my version of a Kegel).

For all of that, I am always interested in any thoughts about erectile function and Peyronies Disease that folks have.

Tim

[howcanthisbe]

Tim thanks for the help. I will listen to you guys, im taking a easy on kegels just in case. Is venous engorgement bad? What is venous engorgement? Thanks

[Liam]

venous  - vein;  engorgement - filled with blood

My penis now has big veins

[Rico]

When you google sarcoidosis which pentox is sometimes used for, they say pentox is a immune system suppressant..... with are immune system out of whack, why would we want to take this if it is the case? I started the pentox in Nov. got the flu in Dec. and just getting over it, still feel weak...

[Hawk]

Rico,

A comment or two and a total shot in the dark.  Your comment interests me because having recently had prostate cancer, I would never want to take a general immune suppressant.  

If pentox is indeed an immune suppressant one of two possibilities exist.  Peyronies Disease is an autoimmune disease (meaning our immune system attacks our own body in a specific way) in which case suppressing may actually help.  The second possibility is that pentox stops the cascading conditions that result in Peyronies Disease through TGF1 etc.  The fact that it may suppress the immune system is simply a tolerable side-effect that does not impair or offset its primary benefit.

[myrddin]

I hesitate to respond because this discussion really belongs in "Oral Treatments."  My apologies to Hawk.

Regarding the immune suppression, you could take (stay with me here, I'm not just grasping) Bee Propolis.  Extensive reading about it on Pubmed reveals various studies showing it has Anti-Biotic, Anti-Viral, and Anti-Inflammatory properties, and also inhibits NO expression through the iNOS pathway (i.e. the "bad" way).

Granted, there are also the two or so Cuban studies that have always been regarded as questionable, showing Propolis directly helps Peyronie's.

However, even disregarding the Cuban Peyronie's studies, there still seems to be science that shows it may help you not get (as) sick, and may even be helpful to us Peyronie's sufferers because of its Anti-inflammatory effect and iNOS inhibition.  See quote from here:

This extract, which at low concentrations induces anti-inflammatory and analgesic effects in mouse models, presents a high content of flavonoids, known to inhibit inducible NOS (iNOS) activity. These data taken together led us to reinforce the hypothesis in the literature that the anti-inflammatory effect of propolis may be a due to inhibition of iNOS gene expression, through interference with NF-kappaB sites in the iNOS promoter

And here:

These results indicate that EEP [ethanol extract of propolis] exerts its inhibitory effect on the IL-1beta and iNOS gene expression in J774A.1 macrophages at the transcriptional level. Tested flavone derivatives contribute to the anti-inflammatory activity of propolis

And here:

Since nitric oxide (NO) synthesized by inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS) has been known to be involved in inflammatory and autoimmune-mediated tissue destruction, modulation of NO synthesis or action represents a new approach to the treatment of inflammatory and autoimmune diseases. Caffeic acid phenethyl ester (CAPE), an active component of honeybee propolis, has been identified to show anti-inflammatory, anti-viral and anti-cancer activities.  ... These results suggest that CAPE may exert its anti-inflammatory effect by inhibiting the iNOS gene expression at the transcriptional level through the suppression of NF-kappaB activation, and by directly inhibiting the catalytic activity of iNOS.

Anyone with knowledge in this area, feel free to correct my reasoning.  There are many who are more knowledgeable than I in this area.


Personally I don't feel Pentox suppresses my immunse system.  I've been on it for almost 4 months and have had one very minor cold which I recovered from quickly (I also had a flu shot).  Meanwhile my Peyronie's condition continued to worsen during the first 2-3 months.  

[Tim468]

Googling propolis may miss some of the data out there since the Cuban studies were done using "propoleum" - which is the same thing (which I finally figured out using wikipedia). It makes sense to use it for Peyronies disease, as does taking Baikal Skullcap etc - all of these herbal remedies that have been studied in Peyronies formally and published in the peer reviewed literature.

What is harder is finding Baikal skullcap or propolis or Korean Red Ginseng that is identical to that which was used in the studies.

Anything that downregulates the expression of TGF Beta 1 and Tumor Necrosis Factor alpha is, by definition, an immune suppressant. That is a far cry from something that shuts down T or B cells, for instance (the kind of drugs used to prevent rejection of transplanted organs). With those sorts of immunosppressants, we see lingering colds or the development of lifethreatening infections sometimes. Not with drugs like Pentox.

Tim

[harchunk]

Being Paranoid is understandable,  I have Peyronies Disease myself and when you live your life with your manhood intact so to speak and then this comes along(Peyronies Disease), how can it not throw someone for a loop.  Like i tell my wife,  when she says she understands,  I say how can you no matter what happens you can always lay down and have sex even if you dont want to.  But a guy with this cant depending how bad it is.  So it yeah I am a little paranoid also.

ok guys, I will take your advice. I do not think I have any mental disorders Hawk, I do think im paranoid however about curing my Peyronies Disease. Im just curious, do Kegels give you better erections though... like harder ones?

[Crook]

I have had a curvature/twist for about 5 months now, can someone recomend me something? I dont feel any calcification, should I take viagra before bed?? If I was to start anything it would be through a doctor not from some shonky online pharmacy.
Thanks.

[tdsc]

I used a combination of grape seed extract (CVS grape seed plus) combined with 400 IU a day of vitamin E that straightened a slightly curved/twisted penis within a couple of weeks.  Don't use it if you have inflammation, and don't use it for weeks on end because it felt like if I used it for several days in a row that I had a feeling of almost having too many erections.  Additionally, it temporarilly doubled the girth of my erections and added some length.  So you don't want to be engaging in sexual activity probably while using this because the increased size might expose you to more injury due to a thinner tunica during erection.

[Crook]

I used a combination of grape seed extract (CVS grape seed plus) combined with 400 IU a day of vitamin E that straightened a slightly curved/twisted penis within a couple of weeks.  Don't use it if you have inflammation, and don't use it for weeks on end because it felt like if I used it for several days in a row that I had a feeling of almost having too many erections.  Additionally, it temporarilly doubled the girth of my erections and added some length.  So you don't want to be engaging in sexual activity probably while using this because the increased size might expose you to more injury due to a thinner tunica during erection.

Was this the GSE http://www.cvs.com/CVSApp/cvs/gateway/detail?prodid=329887 ?
I am gonna try your regimen, so I want to use the same product.

[tdsc]

Yes, that's it.  I may not have been taking vitamin E at the time I noticed a straightening (so you may want to experiment with just grape seed by itself for a few days), but I remember that when I took Vitamin E with it, I noticed a large increase in size (I may have ramped up the vitamin E above 200 or above 400 IU later and noticed larger increases in size).  I wasn't taking anything else at the time.    

[Crook]

Yes, that's it.  I may not have been taking vitamin E at the time I noticed a straightening (so you may want to experiment with just grape seed by itself for a few days), but I remember that when I took Vitamin E with it, I noticed a large increase in size.  I wasn't taking anything else at the time.  

Maybe due to increase blood flow from thinning of the blood wich vitamin E does.

CVS doesnt ship outside the US, so I am gonna haveto settle for standard GSE, do you think that will do?

[Tim468]

Many of us have taken both grape seed and vitamin E without any change in our penis length, girth or Peyronie's lesions.

I advise reading through the archived threads here for good summaries of therapeutic options. The problem with individual accounts of "success" is that we have no idea if the success is random or due to the intervention that is described.

Finally, I would strongly advise FOR taking anti-inflammatory medications or vitamins when one has inflammatio or probable inflammation. I am uncertain about the logic presented here in stating to "hold off if there is inflammation" - that makes no sense to me at all.

Tim

[tdsc]

Crook-

The grape seed should be alright.  If not, I would try getting the individual ingredients as well (bilberry and green tea extract).  The test would be, take 2 grape seed (100 mg) on an empty stomach and see if there is a feeling of blood rushing into the genital region 15-30 minutes after taking it.  I don't recall other supplements like arginine or pentox give this feeling.  If it does, then it would be alright to take it with meals as all you need is the medication in your system.  The reason you don't want to take something that engorges the penis while you have inflammation in my opinion, is that it stretches an injured tunica that is trying to heal.  Stretching or rubbing an injury is bad for collagen formation.  Anti-inflammatories will probably keep down the swelling initially but you don't want to take them for extended periods cause they slow healing and they engorge tendons, etc. with blood so that they become more susceptible to inflammation and injury.  I'm talking about experience with ibuprofen.

Also, if others did not have the same experience with grape seed and vitamin E, it is possible that its the formulation of grape seed plus at cvs pharmacies that you should try.  I posted on the other forum because I heard somebody else used grape seed, they didn't say anything about what I was talking about, but after posting my experience and listing the cvs brand, a week later somebody else wrote back saying they had a similar experience.  

[Hawk]

tdsk:

You have made several statements that grab my attention as a Peyronies Disease patient because:
A. They are counter to my experience
B. I have never heard anyone else suggest such experiences after reading about 20,000 patient posts
C. there is no medical literature or sound physiological explanation offered

Tim has addressed some of these.

1. Anti-inflammatories "slow healing and they engorge tendons, etc. with blood so that they become more susceptible to inflammation and injury."
2. Grape seed extract increases size of penis
3. Grape seed extract gives a dose related transfer of blood to the penis
4. the logic that blood flow should only be increased after Peyronies Disease enters the non-inflammatory chronic phase.  This is counter to every treatment protocol using pentox, viagra, VED's and alternative nutritional treatments.  Further, blood flow is shown to inhibit transforming growth factor 1 (TGF-B1) https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,130.0.html


Since your points are such a departure from "conventional wisdom" I think your statements beg for elaboration.  If they prove true, they are very important. If not, we need to know because they are contrary to sound advice.  I would appreciate you responding to these 4 numbered points with any objective evidence that you may have.  

[tdsc]

I would say that using grape seed while you have inflammation of a tendon would aggravate it.  Using anti-inflammatories like advil, it is also a blood dilator, and while using it and walking a lot would aggravate it.  If you're not moving, anti-inflammatories are helpful at times.  My experience with advil is that it prolonged healing time.  Blood flow may be helpful in peyronies but not the extent that the area becomes so engorged that it stretches the area causing pain or further progression.  I would not want to use grape seed if I had a recent injury because the larger and  stronger erection would stretch the area.

As to points 2, I recently updated my post below, and it was my experience and one other person that it temporarilly increased the size of the erection.  2 pills of cvs grape seed plus was stronger.  The size increase with vitamin e and grape seed was dramatic.  The size increase was crazy and that's why I cut back on the vitamin E at the time because I thought it was too big, and I'm not joking.  As to point 4, I would be careful with using anything in the beginning other than vitamin E, if that, if the injury is not too big, as to my experience.  Perhaps using some kind of blood flow enhancer is beneficial.  I wouldn't go overboard on it.  The studies with viagra and arginine were on people who had problems in the penis due to an extended erection that would have left fibrosis throughout if they hadn't used the medication.  However, even with using the medication, this group of people had to use medications to obtain an erection.  With peyronie's people have a tear or a wrinkle in the tunica that causes inflammation or causes a plaque.  I have a small tear or wrinkle near the head that is not a plaque.  I have a plaque at the base.  With a tear, you don't want to have any sexual relations or masturbation for quite some time, perhaps two years or for as long as you have no trace of pain, to let that area heal.  Leaving the area alone is probably the best advice.  Using grape seed and vitamin E (I don't remember if I was using vitamin E at the time I noticed straightening, but I used it in combination for a short period later) straightened a slightly curved erection, while at the same time, it stimulated erections.  I probably used grape seed of and on for a little less than a month.

[Hawk]

tdsc,

With all due respect, you offered NO evidence for any point except a personal story about your erect penis dramatically increasing in length and girth from a dose of a very common food supplement that makes no suggestion of such an effect.  I find this claim fantastically unbelievable.  I do not believe any substance on earth can result in this response so I am left bewildered by this claim.  Clearly your tunica did not instantly become capable of a greater stretch.  Do you mean that your erections had become small and flaccid and this dose returned it to normal

On the other points you simply say things such as you think anti-inflammatories caused inflammation and slowed healing in you.  You offered no evidence on how you know they did.  You offer no medical evidence on this ever being observed in a patient, you offer no physiological rational on how this takes place.

I need far more reasoning for my course of action then

I would be careful with using anything in the beginning other than vitamin E, if that,

Statements like

With peyronie's people have a tear or a wrinkle in the tunica that causes inflammation or causes a plaque.

are at best a very deceptive partial truth, at worst just flat wrong.  Many people have NO injury prior to Peyronies Disease.  No researcher has every connected a wrinkle anywhere to Peyronies Disease.

tdsc, I have no ax to grind other than for truth and accuracy. I have learned many new things on this forum through presentation of evidence. Truth can stand examination and cross-examination.  In fact, truth thrives under such examination.  Your lack of evidence and rational leave me with no choice but to dismiss your statements and conclusions as misinformation until something is offered to actually support them.

[Tim468]

Dear tdsc,

I am sorry, but almost nothing that you wrote makes sense to ME. Where do I start?

"I would say that using grape seed while you have inflammation of a tendon would aggravate it."

There are NO data or rationale to support this.

"Using anti-inflammatories like advil, it is also a blood dilator [NOT TRUE] - do you mean vasodilator? Do you mean blood "thinner"?, and while using it and walking a lot would aggravate it." Aggravate WHAT? a tendon? Anti-inflammatories combined with ice, compression, rest and stretching are a known and accepted treatment for tendinous or muscular injuries.

"If you're not moving, anti-inflammatories are helpful at times.  My experience with advil is that it prolonged healing time."

Your experience is not common or even near to what is accepted as the role of NSAIDs in recovery from injuries or inflammation.

"Blood flow may be helpful in peyronies but not the extent that the area becomes so engorged that it stretches the area causing pain or further progression."

Not only is this counter to what most of us believe, but it is also counter to an increasing body of evidence that shows that early erections and use of the VED are crucial in preventing contracture of post-surgical penises that have been repaired with grafts for Peyronies Disease. Reoccurance of curvature seems to be quite closely related to avoiding erections. My personal experience - having gotten Peyronies Disease when I was 21 or so - is that frequent erections adn use of my penis in intercourse "held it at bay". My personal experience is that it got worse when I became single and my sex life slowed down.

"I would not want to use grape seed if I had a recent injury because the larger and  stronger erection would stretch the area."

I discount your tale of a much larger erection - I see no way that a tunica albuginea (TA) can suddenly become so much more compliant that it allows a huge erection. Just to be sure, I am going to go buy some more grape seed extract and vitamin E and take it on an empty stomoch!  

"As to points 2, I recently updated my post below, and it was my experience and one other person that it temporarilly increased the size of the erection.  2 pills of cvs grape seed plus was stronger.  The size increase with vitamin e and grape seed was dramatic.  The size increase was crazy and that's why I cut back on the vitamin E at the time because I thought it was too big, and I'm not joking."

I do not know whether to think that you are making this up, or if you simply had weak erections and finally got a real big and strong one for the first time in years. I do not think that the TA can suddenly become more stretchy - it defies physiology and simple logic. For one thing, I imagine that the chemists who market grape seed MIGHT have emntioned such a side effect prominently!

"As to point 4, I would be careful with using anything in the beginning other than vitamin E, if that, if the injury is not too big, as to my experience.  Perhaps using some kind of blood flow enhancer is beneficial.  I wouldn't go overboard on it.  The studies with viagra and arginine were on people who had problems in the penis due to an extended erection that would have left fibrosis throughout if they hadn't used the medication. However, even with using the medication, this group of people had to use medications to obtain an erection."

Finally you say something that I agree with!

" With peyronie's people have a tear or a wrinkle in the tunica that causes inflammation or causes a plaque."

Not quite right...

"I have a small tear or wrinkle near the head that is not a plaque."

It seems that you have something wrong near the tip that is not easily palpable - that is common for us. Soetimes Docs don't feel it - but if it causes a deformity, then it is probably abnormal.

" I have a plaque at the base.  With a tear, you don't want to have any sexual relations or masturbation for quite some time, perhaps two years or for as long as you have no trace of pain, to let that area heal."

Again, this is advice, and it is not clearly good advice, It does not fit with what worked for me, nor does it fit with the goals of most men here, which is to resume or continue a normal sex life.

"Leaving the area alone is probably the best advice."

I strongly disagree - see above.

"Using grape seed and vitamin E (I don't remember if I was using vitamin E at the time I noticed straightening, but I used it in combination for a short period later) straightened a slightly curved erection, while at the same time, it stimulated erections.  I probably used grape seed of and on for a little less than a month."

Given that your experience fall so far apart from the norm here, and that your curve was so easily fixed, and since grape seed and vitamin E seemed to help you achieve bigger erections, I interpret that data differently than you do. It sounds to me like you had curvature associated with weaker or smaller erections than normal, and when things got better (either healed, or perhaps simply stronger erections) then the curvature went away.

That is most consistent with a mild case of Peyronies Disease combined with a mild case of ED. It is not consistent with a miraculous cure of a tough disease that most (if not all) of us struggle with here.

PLEASE hear this for what it is - I am trying to share with you the benefit of training in scientific thinking and a life of work that includes intellectual rigor. What you have been saying does not make sense. I want you to see that and to see why it does not make sense. Saying it again in different ways does not help make it sensible.

Tim

[tdsc]

The grape seed extract I believe aggravated or inflamed an already inflamed tendon even more.  I've read on tendonitis sites where advil slows down mitosis or some such in cells and can prolong healing in tendonitis, and these are legitimate sites..  I don't disagree with taking advil at the beginning, but my experience with it, was that it inflamed the area due to its blood thinning quality so that you had to stop walking from the burning or aggravation.  It reduces the efficiency probably of the tendon because you have too much blood flowing through it.  If you've ever had tendonitis and used advil or a vasodilator, you would know that it made it stiffer and more painful to walk.  When you cease the medication, the tendons flow smoother.

Erections are probably good.  However, people have erections at night and this hysteria of you have to have frequent daily erections to improve function is not always wise.  If you're not having hard erections at night, that means probably you are in an active phase of the disease, and I wouldn't add erections that escalate pain.  Every time I engaged in sexual relations, even of the lightest kind, always resulted in either girth reduction or length reduction.  Pain was immediately evident afterwards, at first a dull light pain that escalated to a greater pain and red inflammation.  One time this red inflammation spread around the penis and shortened it by some degree.  I had sexual relations on the order of maybe 5 or 6 times after the injury and I definitely associate each act with immediate inflammation.  When I first saw the urologist he said take it easy.  I did, with very light intercourse and it caused inflammation.  I went to the emergency room after I was afraid that I had a ruptured penis possibly, but they said it wasn't, and they advised to stop all sexual relations, which I have, and I have had no further progression of the disease.  I have been careful not to aggravate it, by wearing light clothing and such like polyester or wool, as opposed to jeans or khakis.  I still have light pain, but that has gone down.  It has been 10 months since the injury.  In addition, after each sexxual act, it led to progressive escalations of pain, where at the last time, led to occasional pain that I would rate as near disabling if the area was just aggravated very minorly.  With just my experience, doctors should counsel that it would be wise to not have relations.  The plaque at the base however, was not aggravated by sexual relations.

I agree that it's good to discuss and have different points of view.  Sure, I would use antiinflammatories for pain at first and throughout, but for me, for very short periods of time.

The believe I used grape seed extract alone at first, and noticed a redder, stronger erection.  My erections previous to this were not I would rate weak, they were perhaps not extremely hard due to the pain, but they were not atrophied.   I had full strong erections without any medication and definitely noticed an angle, perhaps 10 to 20 degrees to the left, and the angle decreased to almost nothing probably I would say very shortly after using the grape seed.   I would say using grape seed caused a bit of a stronger erection when used alone and a bit bigger.  I could feel the erection pulling on whatever was causing a deviation in angle, and it was an almost pleasant feeling.  When I added Vitamin E later, I noticed a gargantuan increase in size, especially in the head.  I would probably not want to engage in sexual acts with a larger penis like this because it was probably thinning the tunica.  I admit that it is a bit bizzare.  However, when I used vitamin E alone I notice a bit of a larger erection.  Additionally with arginine at night, the erection seemed larger and more engorged with blood.  However, I never noticed a size increase like the grape seed and vitamin E.  I used the CVS grape seed plus.  I would not use the grape seed if you have experienced inflammation or shortening of any kind recently, because I believe the grape seed inflamed the area somewhat and led to a later shortening when I aggravated it.

[tdsc]

tdsc,

With all due respect, you offered NO evidence for any point except a personal story about your erect penis dramatically increasing in length and girth from a dose of a very common food supplement that makes no suggestion of such an effect.  I find this claim fantastically unbelievable.  I do not believe any substance on earth can result in this response so I am left bewildered by this claim.  Clearly your tunica did not instantly become capable of a greater stretch.  Do you mean that your erections had become small and flaccid and this dose returned it to normal

The grape seed alone probably led to an erection that was at my natural greatest or perhaps a bit larger.  When I added vitamin E, I'm not kidding, it was much bigger.  I don't believe that I can be the only one.  In fact, when I posted on the duputryn's site about this months ago, somebody else replied and said wow thanks I noticed the same thing.

[Hawk]

Tdsk,

Other than this being an impossibility, there are about 4 other reasons this just cannot be.  No amount of claiming it so can change that.  I have no more explanation for your report than I would if you reported that you could shoot 38 caliber hollow points with your penis and that you have the target from the firing range to prove it.  I only know that it could not be an accurate report.  

[tdsc]

I would have to say that is was a temporary (while on the drug) 50% increase.  I would post the reply from another person on a different board who saw dramatic changes, but it can't be found.  This is not an anomaly.  I wouldn't be posting this if I thought it was a slight increase.  The increase was cartoonish (when combined with 400-800 iu of vitamin e, and in fact I wouldn't even use the vitamin e, maybe just a little; when not combined, there was not a dramatic increase but the red blood flow was there) and one you should try for yourself.  I would add that I believe from using grape seed alone, that after having a few daily erections, the penis actually had a red look under the skin like there was very good blood flow, and I never experienced this with arginine, any other substance, or even pentox.  This is not a joke.  You'll have to try it out for yourselves.
Here is a link for pine bark which is similar to grape seed extract and it says it may increase nitric oxide production: http://www.drugdigest.org/DD/DVH/HerbsWho/0,3923,551937%7CPine+Bark+Extract,00.html

[Hawk]

I have tried it, I take it daily.  However, i don't base my rejection on my case.  That would be absurd.  I base it on the impossibility of an oral supplement increasing penis size, much less in one dose.  Get real!  If that happened in 10% of men, the product would sell for thousands of dollars, yet in the case of grape seed extract they somehow fail to even mention it.  It would be their gold mine! No, pound for pound much more valuable than gold!

I believe we have both had our say and that any thinking person can now assess these posts and make there own mind up on the issue.

I have to question the point of your posts and if you are just screwing with the forum.  In any case.  We have both had our say.  At the risk of sounding realistic, it is time to leave the "cartoonish" and to get back on topic.

[tdsc]

You do realize how ridiculous you're acting?  You may have taken the medication and simply not have noticed your erection.  How long did you take the drug, and what else were you possibly taking that could have counteracted it?  Did you take it with Vitamin E as I stated?  It is a lighthearded medication that probably won't do much damage (hopefully none at all if you're careful and have no inflammation), and that was its intent.  

[Hawk]

Yes Tdsk I do take it with vit E as do many others here that have obviously not experienced your impossible observations.  No one supports your claim to a "cartoonishly  enlarged penis" with a single dose of supplements; no members, no nutritionists, no doctors, no pharmacists, and no physiologists or biologists.  

If you actually read my post you will realize my conclusions were not based on the results with me.  They were based on fairly common knowledge and rational thought processes, sorry, nothing "cartoonish" or "lighthearded" to offer.  

[George999]

I spent two months on BOTH grape seed PLUS pine bark PLUS resveratrol PLUS 2200IU of Vitamin E daily.  Perhaps I was doing something wrong because none of the effects were "cartoonish".  I really don't know where you are coming up with all of this stuff.

- George

[tdsc]

We have had at least two people who said they would try taking "cvs grape seed plus" on an empty stomach (two pills).  For those of you who are just reading, it does cause a rush of blood to the penis and although does not create an erection sort of helps it along.  Also, the erections seemed to be stronger and fuller.

[George999]

tsdc, grape seed supplements are powerful broad spectrum antioxidants which can indeed be beneficial for people with Peyronies, but I have never heard of them resulting in a 'rush of blood' anywhere in the body.  The other ingredients are also antioxidants and I can't see what any of them would have to do with blood flow, but if its working for you, thats great.  I would have no problem with recommending this product for Peyronies.

- George

Grape Seed Plus ingredients from the CVS web site:
Per Capsule: Selenium 15 mcg (as Selenium Yeast and Selenium Proteinate); Grape Seed Extract 50 mg (Standardized to Contain 50% Polyphenols, 25 mg); Full Spectrum Antioxidant Blend 130 mg (Green Tea [Camellia Sinensis] [Leaf]; Citrus Bioflavonoids [Citrus Sinensis] [Fruit]; Bilberry [4:1 Extract] [Vaccinium Myrtillus] [Fruit]); Rice Powder; Gelatin; Silica; Vegetable Magnesium Stearate

[Tim468]

tdsk,

If you are not making this all up (my assumption, frankly), then it is really really hard to come up with a rational explanation for your report. That alone makes it sound absurd.

I have tried to understand it every way I can - but you are consistently reporting changes that are FAR outside the mainstream for Peyronie's disease sufferers. The color changes, the intense pain that even requires a different pair of pants, the freakish growth of your penis with supplements that many of us have taken (yes, even with similar brands).

I dunno.. maybe when you took that and got an erection, you bled into the subcutaneous space and it swelled up between the tunica and the skin. That might leave you with a bruise that should have slowly evolved into a purple, then yellow/green discoloration though. So it doesn't make ANY sense...

Perhaps the problems that you are having are related to a different lesion or a different anatomy than usual. Could it be that you have a strange collagen vascular disease like Ehlers Danlos? Are you "stretchy" in other places? I just cannot fathom a way that the anatomy can change the way you state.

Saying that vitamin E or grape seed extract changes the structure of collagen is incorrect. It does not. So, that theory of yours is WRONG.

I could go on. It seems that you are quite resistent to hearing alternative views to your own, despite the patently goofy nature of what you are saying. So I will invoke my personal three strikes rule. When I have posted on a subject three times with someone and they still do not either hear what I am saying or respond to it, I stop. Sometimes I even stop at two posts.

Finally, I must get out of this "debate" before we or someone must invoke Godwin's law, which states "As a thread grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." The corrollary to that rule is that when such a comparison occurs, the discussion must end.

http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Godwin's_Law

Tim

[gibson101]

OK im just taking a long shot here...I was discussing something with a friend recently about diving and teh subject of the hyperbaric chamber came up. Apparenty it can be used in cases where gang green is starting, so it can increase oxygen flow to the tissue. I wont lie, I am young and dont know much about these things but I was thinking could something like that not be beneficial?? You get something called Hyperbaric Oxygen therapy which is used to treat a number of things and one is "wounds that are battling to heal"

Anyway...just a though for discussion I guess. U guys may just dismiss it
Ive been on the PAV treatment for about 2months now...no real improvements yet but no negative developement I guess so keepin hope up

Good Luck to all

[Tim468]

Either this has never been tested for Peyronies Disease or it was tested once in Russia - I cannot recall right off hand. I think the downside of hyberbaric therapy is possible to outweigh the positives.

I know that Michael Jackson was considered (even more) wacko because he bought a hyperbaric chamber. It turns out he was trying to use it to heal his vitiligo (white patches) on his hand (it didn't work apparently). He went back to the one glove, and then finally decided to go with bleaching all of his skin to make it less obvious. They joke about him going from being a black man to a white woman, but I see him as a person in great pain, who has been acting in odd ways to (inappropriately) deal with it. But I digress...

I know of no data to support use of hyperbaric therapy for Peyronies Disease.

Tim

[Liam]

http://www.urotoday.com/287/conference_reports/aua_highlights__may_22_2006/aua_2006__the_effect_of_hyperbaric_oxygen_therapy_on_erectile_function_recovery_in_the_rat_cavernous_nerve_injury_model.html

[gibson101]

to be honest this idea interests me a lot....but i wouldnt know where to start to try get it used + im sure the price of this treatment is quite significant

[Tim468]

IMHO, the chambers might could be used to treat Peyronies Disease if one could find a way to just expose only his mid body to the system, etc.

Old Man

Well, is not a VED a localized form of hypobaric therapy?

Tim

[Hawk]

My understanding is that a hyperbaric chamber is that it has a positive pressure and is oxygen saturated.  I think it is supposed to allow the blood or the tissue (or both) to carry more oxygen than is possible under normal circumstances.  I do not think the ones used for the bends from diving utilized super oxygen rich environments.  I think they only used the pressure to prevent gas bubbles from forming in the blood.

I have now dispensed my total knowledge/assumptions about hyperbaric oxygen therapy

[Tim468]

Nah.. the VED is HYPObaric, not HYPERbaric. It creates a more negative pressure, whereas the hyperbaric chamber creates a higher pressure. Thus a diver can be "taken back down" to a certain depth, and gradually "brought back up to the surface". OTOH, such a chamber can be used to create lower than normal pressures. Thus, in "Operation Everest II", "climbers" were gradually taken to an altitude the equivalent to the summit of Mt. Everest (where all sorts of invasive procedures were done that could not be done easily on the mountain). Scientists studying them had to wear oxygen masks to go into the chamber to work with them; once one of them had his mask fall off and he promptly passed out from lack of oxygen. OTOH, the climbers who had gone "up" gradually did well without oxygen (and put his mask back on him).

I have been to altitude, but I do not recall any positive "VED-like" actions on my penis or erections! That might be because the vacuum I create with the VED is quite more negative than the lowered pressure at 19,000 feet.

Tim

[gibson101]

jusrt thinking about it logically though..for me..who has suffered a thickening and hardening throughout the penis...i can only think that going in as chamber that helps the oxygen and healthy blood flow can be benificial if anything...im very il informed on all these issues but just thinking about it makes loads of sence to me and I do belive is worth following..U know all we need is one urologist who is willing to experiment cause I am sure as hell very ready to experiment

[rcrj]

Hello,
Have any of you seen this article from a year and a half ago?  

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/04/10/wruss10.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/04/10/ixworld.html

The claim is that if it's successful at high risk that you'll have "7 inches semi-aroused at all times", whatever that would be like.

Robert

[Tim468]

I missed that article but did see a picture of the arm before reimplantation. I wondered why they did not use tissue expanders to stretch out the skin on the arm first (which makes it thinner) and have a primary closure instead of needing to graft skin from the leg.

http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/03/22/miraclesurgery.shtml?3rdarm

[Tim468]

It would actually be pretty hard to set up an experiment with this. It would require getting a chamber for regular use - say an hour a day of hyperbaric O2 therapy. It would mean getting waivers of liability and getting it passed by the human subjects review panel. There might not be enough data to suggest that it would help to even justify trying it.

I remember a chiropractor using a large magnet to treat the lung infection for a patient of mine with cystic fibrosis. Although it made some "sense" what amazed me was that he A) just did it, and B) charged her for it!

It didn't help.

Tim

[kenno]

Here is an article from Sweden about Acetyl-L-Carnitine
"...L-carnitine is an amino acid the body uses to turn fat into energy. It is not usually considered a nutrient because the body can manufacture all it needs. Two forms of L-carnitine, acetyl-L-carnitine and propionyl-L-carnitine, have been tried as treatments for Peyronie's disease.

A 3-month, double-blind study compared the effectiveness of acetyl-L-carnitine to the drug tamoxifen in 48 men with Peyronie's disease.1 Acetyl-L-carnitine (at a dose of 1 gram[g] daily) reduced penile curvature while tamoxifen did not; in addition, the supplement reduced pain and slowed disease progression to a greater extent than tamoxifen. ..."

http://www.swedish.org/111803.cfm

[rcrj]

Has anyone experienced tunica albuginea grafts?  There have been various trials that have reported seemingly mixed results, but I wonder what testimonials would come from those who went through it and whether such a procedure will be made available to the public.  Also, what about tunica regeneration, as a part of tissue engineering, or any advances in growing synthetic substances that mimic the tunica to coat the affected area or the entire corporal cavernosa.

Robert

[kenno]

Has anyone tried or seen this 2-AEP?  It says it's for what ails you, sort of like snake oil.  But I'm wondering if anyone has seen it.

http://www.nutritional1.com/ctrk/land.php?vid=3&pid=26

[Liam]

I thik I'll stick to my Flintstones.

http://www.flintstonesvitamins.com/    


Vitamin  Role  
Vitamin A   Helps maintain a healthy immune system.  
Vitamin A as beta-carotene   Form of vitamin A thought to function as an antioxidant, which may provide protection against cell-damaging free radicals.  Beta-carotene is found in dark green and orange vegetables and fruit that often are lacking in children's diets.  
Thiamin (B1), Riboflavin (B2), Niacin, Vitamin B6 Pantothenic Acid and Biotin   B vitamins help your body turn food into the energy it needs to function optimally. Taking B vitamins is important in helping your child grow up healthy and strong.  
Vitamin B12   Essential for normal healthy nerve tissue and healthy red blood cell formation. Especially difficult to get for those who avoid animal products.  
Folic Acid   Essential for growth through its involvement in DNA production and healthy red blood cell formation.  
Vitamin C   Antioxidant necessary for healthy gums and to inhibit damage to body cells. Vitamin C also helps suport immunity.  
Vitamin E   Antioxidant that works to promote heart health and to help protect body cells.  
Vitamin D  Vitamin D helps promote the absorption of Calcium and Phosphorous and regulates how much calcium remains in your blood.  

 


 
Minerals  Role  
Phosphorous  Helps generate energy in every cell of your body.  It is also a key component of bones and teeth.  
Zinc   Promotes cell reproduction and tissue growth and repair. Adequate Zinc intake is essential for growth. Zinc helps your body use carbohydrates, proteins, and fats.  
Iron   Serves as an essential part of hemoglobin, which carries oxygen in your blood from your lungs to every body cell. Iron helps support a healthy immune system.  
Calcium  Builds strong bones and teeth. Calcium helps your muscles contract and heart beat and plays a role in normal nerve function.  
Iodine   The chief component of thyroid hormones which regulate body energy metabolism.  
Magnesium   Necessary for energy metabolism, helps maintain body cells in nerves and muscles, and signals muscles to relax and contract. Magnesium serves as a component of bones.  
Copper   Helps your body make hemoglobin, needed to carry oxygen in red blood cells. Copper also helps your body produce energy in its cells.

[Liam]

http://www.fsphysiomed.com/peyronies-disease.php

Many of us called the pocket on this one.  

Sounds a bit more respectable    It's like medicine for my physiology.



Liam

I've started to add more to this post several times and have stopped due to excessive laughing.  The more I think about this, the funnier it gets, on so many levels.