Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease

[Liam]

Dan,

Thanks for posting.  I am curious about the onset of your condition.  Did an incident precede the bend?  Did the bend appear quickly and did you notice plaque or nodules?  From start to end how long did you have it?  How long had you had it when treatment began?

Thanks again!!!

Liam

[anderdan]

Liam...

Interesting question... "Did an incident precede the bend?" That is debateable, I suppose. I know that a short time before the problem arose, my wife and I were having sex and, with her on top, I remember that (hard to explain) my penis got bent backwards in the middle. It kind of hurt, but I didn't think anything of it. Maybe that wasn't the cause - no way to know for sure - but weeks later, I started noticing that it began kinking sideways and becoming painful during erection. This was the onset of the Peyronies. I mentioned the earlier incident to my doctor when I went in for the first time because he asked the same question you did. He then said that there is no shortage of debate among those familiar with the disease as to whether it is causes by trauma, or whether it is caused by another reason. Personally, I would probably lean towards the trauma theory, but I'm no expert, that's for sure.

Did it come on quickly? I remember it happening somewhat gradually, but can't remember for sure. According to the medical records, I had the condition for 7-8 months before seeking treatment, so I would guess that it happened gradually over that period of time. I know that it became so painful that I didn't put up with that for long before seeking medical help.

Start to finish? I would say that it appeared gradually over the course of 6-7 months... then I made an appointment to see a doctor... tried some medication and Vitamin E with no success for a month or so... and then had the radiation. Then... it seems to me that I was completely back to my old self in just a couple weeks following the radiation.

Hope this helps...

Dan

[Liam]

Thanks!!!  Very interesting.  

[Tim468]

Dear Anderdan.

Thanks for your kind help in recalling what you did and providing us details. It really helps figure out what we might want to pursue in the future. It seems to have no benefit to you to do this making it all the more appreciated.

Tim

[Duben]

Hi guys this is my first post.  It is my understanding that elastin degredation is a major factor in the loss of elasticity of the penis, as those of us with associated weakening of the erection suffer.  Does anyone know what effect applying a cream with tropoelastin, a precursor to elastin would do?  This company (http://www.dermalastyl.com/) claims to have such a product.  Thanks for your comments.

[George999]

My first thought here is "how do they make it transdermal?" but apparently they have that down, since if its used by the military, one has to assume there must be some science behind it as well as some efficacy (although knowing our government, that assumption could very well be questioned .  Actually, this is pretty fascinating.  It certainly would be harmless enough to try, so, what are you waiting for?  - George

[percival]

Hi Duben
This Dermalastyl looks interesting, but whilst it might smooth out surface wrinkles I have my doubts about it penetrating to the plaque to help with Peyronies Disease. As George says - there's probably no harm in trying it. Interestingly, one of the guys mentioned on the web site is called Dickman - perhaps this is a good omen!
Regards
Percival

PS - it reminds me of a claim made by an old mate of mine for a cream he said he'd invented "to bring lustre to your cluster, and glamour to your rammer" (patent refused)  

[meanmrmustard]

someone on a german Peyronies Disease-newsgroup reported major improvements of his Peyronies Disease and general penile inflammation after being treated with Mesotherapy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesotherapy

He received "micro-injections" into the penis. the injections consisted of unspecified "low-dosed anti-inflammation and pro-bloodflow medication", plus "procain". the injections went merely below the skin and the number of them was about 30 each session, 5 sessions.
______________

I am aware that injections into the penis are something you absolutely want to avoid and can even be the cause of Peyronies Disease. still, it sounds like a success-story that some people might find interesting.

[Tim468]

The link provided did not mention anything about Peyronie's. It did say the following:

"Mesotherapy treatments have been performed throughout Europe, South America, and more recently the United States for over fifty years. However, physicians have been concerned about both the efficacy and safety of mesotherapy, arguing that a lack of scientific study makes mesotherapy a fad with potentially dangerous side effects. "There is simply no data, no science and no information, to my knowledge, that mesotherapy works," according to Rod Rohrich, M.D., Chairman, Dept. of Plastic Surgery, University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center, Dallas. The American Society of Plastic Surgeons issued a position statement not endorsing mesotherapy because to date, there has been no established mechanism of action, demonstrated efficacy, or established safety profile with any of the drugs used in mesotherapy.

The FDA cannot control the use of practitioners injecting various mixtures into patient's bodies because this practice falls under the jurisdiction of state medical boards. Dr. Robin Ashinoff, speaking for the American Academy of Dermatology, says "A simple injection is giving people false hope. Everybody's looking for a quick fix. But there is no quick fix for fat or fat deposits or for cellulite." The American Society for Dermatologic Surgeryinformed its members in February 2005 that "further study is warranted before this technique can be endorsed."

Many dermatologists and plastic surgeons are alarmed about the growing profile of mesotherapy. "No one says exactly what they put into the (syringe)," says Naomi Lawrence, a derma-surgeon at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey. "One drug they often use, phosphatidylcholin, is unpredictable and causes extreme inflammation and swelling where injected. It is not a benign drug." USAToday 8/4/2004. It is currently banned in a number of South American countries. Even Brazil, which is less strict than the USA in drug approvals, has banned the drug for these purposes. USAToday 8/4/2004"

Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

If it helped, it was either due to the fact that sometmes "Peyronie's Disease" gets better (the quotes are for Liam), or that the needle did some breaking up of plaque.

Tim

[George999]

Tim, It sounds to me like "Mesotherapy" is a parallel mode to DMSO in that it is just yet another way to bypass the body's natural layer of protection which is our skin.  If that is the case then it would follow that Mesotherapy would carry NEARLY ALL of the risks associated with DMSO, which are not trivial.  IN ADDITION, it would carry even more risk.  1) It involves physical trauma which may be exacerbated by a lack of skill on the part of the practitioner who is already demonstrating that he or she is not committed to conservative approaches.  2) It allows far more active ingredients to be transported across the skin barrier in a shorter length of time.  And 3) it allows far more potent substances to be used that are only available to medical professionals, and, again, all of this in the hands of a practitioner who is not committed to conservative treatment approaches.  This indeed should be equivalent to multiple red flags.  - George

[bodoo2u]

Has anyone actually been treated for Peyronies Disease with radiation and what were the results? I'm almost willing to try anything now, except surgery.  

[Hawk]

Old Man was treated with radiation.  A member just posted the details of the treatment he had many years back.

The consensus is that it stops pain, maybe by killing nerves.  It can cause ED.  It has not been shown to change the deformity.  I know of no one that offers it.  If you knew you were getting better by 2 degrees a month, would you be happy?  If you knew you stopped improving 2 months ago would it impact your decision?  If you knew you were slowly getting worse would you stop your current treatment?

I would say these are real important questions and answers.  Maybe even important enough to encourage someone to go to the extreme effort of tracking their length, girth, and curve.

[j]

With Xiaflex now in serious trials and some success being reported, I wouldn't even consider a risky shot-in-the-dark like radiation.

[Tim468]

Nemo,

I would tell you that your dick is likely to fall off, if I didn't think that you'd take it seriously and go out on a ledge.

It seems that your head is telling you more than you are able to synthesize and incorporate into your thinking. I feel confused after reading some of your posts, and I take that to indicate that you are confused (often we end up feeling what another is feeling, if we pay attention to it).

Maybe this is a bit too much information overload for you, Nemo. I again challenge you to do something positive for yourself. For you, I think that might entail reading less about Peyronie's and "getting right" in your head about who you are and what you are. Attention to your spiritual growth and development might yield returns for you - as many of us say, for every problem there is a spiritual solution. Right now, "facts" seem to be doing you wrong.

Tim

[Hawk]

Dented,

Welcome to the forum.

I moved your post as Tim suggested.

Please read the "Read This First" section of the forum and don't assume you know the rules or how the forum should be set up.  It explains in clear detail, how to post on this forum and why it is designed as it is.  https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/board,1.0.html


Hawk

[Steve]

Hi All,

Searching around today, I found this posting wiht quite a strange (in my opionion) cause and treatment for Peyronies Disease.  You can find it at http://livingwith.urologychannel.com/peyronies-disease/20080214_4021

To summarize, this person (I don't know that they're a doctor, but based on his 'treatment', I suspect that he is) Peyronies Disease is cuased:

In my experience ([moderator note: contact information has been removed]) Peyronie's is caused by inhaling carcinogenic chemical fumes that chemically cross-link proteins in the erectile nasal turbinates, biochemically rearranging antigenic determinants called epitopes.

And his treatment:

What to do for a treatment? I have tried hundreds of treatments, and found what works well is repeated frequent vaccination with MMR-II (mumps-measles-rubella) shots. ... Dosage: start with one shot per month, then every two weeks, then once a week, then twice a week, then daily.

ps. The daily shot regimen is what makes me suggest this person is a doctor...who else would have access to that much vaccine and syringes?

I'd never heard of anything like this before, so I thought I'd throw it out to the forum for discussion.

Steve

[Hawk]

https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,673.0.html

[Steve]

Oops (that's an embarrased grin).

I guess you can delete my post too...I thought it sounded to strange to have much merit, but thought it could start some discussion.  Now I see that any further discussion is un-necessary.

Steve

[AR]

I'm smiling, but feeling unsettled. How often do we get creepy stuff like this? I was getting ready to dial my daughter's pediatrician.  Thanks for looking out for us Hawk.

AR    

[Hawk]

Actually we are a community and we have all done an excellent job in policing such posts.  It is rare to find a forum on any topic that allows the freedom that we allow, and yet avoids the flaming, attacks, insults, religious/political arguments, and off topic hijacking of the forum.

While I was knocked over by the post, it was another member that took the time to Google this member name and found other examples of his internet activity.  Even then I avoinded deleting the post because I am fanatical about avoiding censorship.  I did move it to Off Topic until the author can defend it.  He posted and has never logged back on the forum.  

Fortunately, the members have all done a great job of keeping this the best Peyronies Disease forum that ever existed.

I may move these posts to the the same topic in a day or two.

[PAR]

I am 37 years old and was just diagnosed with Peyronies Disease about 3 or 4 months ago. I noticed a curving of the penis about 4 months ago. The curve up quickly progressed within about 3 or 4 weeks. I do not have any pain with erections nor do I lose my erections. I started taking L-Arginine because I heard that can help. I made my erections more intense, which I am not complaining about but I recently stopped because I started to break out with cold sores. I also heard ultrasound or proteolytic enzymes may be helpful. Can anyone give me some advice on what may be helpful for someone with such a new condition. I do feel the scar tissue near the head of my penis and it is tender when I push down on it. Any advice would be appreciated.

[nemo]

Welcome, PAR.  There are a variety of treatments guys on this board are using.  You've hit on one - L-Arginine.  There is a popular "cocktail" being used by leading Peyronie's doctors right now consisting of L-Arginine, a drug called Pentoxifilline (Pentox), and Viagra.  The three are supposed to work in combo to attack fibrosis and get good blood flow into the penis to achieve this.  Some of us are also taking Vitamin E (the classic Peyronies Disease standby), Acetyl L Carnitine and Propionyl L Carnitine - all these supplements are easily purchased online.

There are also practitioners of VED therapy (Vacuum Erection Device), and traction, which involves mechanically stretching the penis.  Search either of these terms and you'll find plenty.  

The bottom line is there's no magical cure, sadly.  Many doctors don't know much about Peyronies Disease, and the ones that do pretty much recommend some or all of what I've listed above.  Right now the Pentox seems promising, but so have other drugs in the past - I wish I could be more hopeful. If you're getting good erections and no pain, consider yourself lucky and do a little research to see what you might want to try to maintain or even better your condition - it does happen, so there's always hope.

Good luck brother,
Nemo  

[Tim468]

PAR,

I second what Nemo wrote. No magic bullets, but some promising areas that we can work on. I am focusing on supplements that are anti-oxidants and likely to suppress TGF Beta-1.

And, hey Nemo? Great advice. I wonder if you are finding that when you reach out to help others if your own pain is eased just a little bit. I know that for me this is true. Getting out of my own head is good for me.

Tim

[PAR]

Thanks for the info. Does anyone know if the problem continues to progress. Since I have only had it for 4 months, should I expect it to get worse. It seems like it curved quickly in the first 4 weeks or so. For the past 2.5 to 3 months it has not changed any. Any ideas what to do about the cold sore outbreaks with the arginine. I want to stay away from taking viagra or drugs if possible. Anyone try combining Lysine to help combat the cold sores and does that work. How about Ultrasound. I have heard that may be helpful. Has anyone tried that or gotten good results with it.

PAR

[George999]

PAR, It is hard to top Nemo's suggestions, he did a really great job.  But one thing I would tell you is that some of us here have noticed that dietary sugar, and stuff that raises blood sugar levels like refined carbs, tends to provoke flare ups.  You might want to be cautious about that also.  - George

[nemo]

PAR, I know first hand that no one can predict what Peyronie's will do.

If I were you, I think I'd look at it like this: you had noticeable bending in the first four weeks, very quickly, and now you've gone 3 months without change.  Every day you go that you don't see change for the worse is one day closer to feeling comfortable that you're stable.  Your inflamation process clearly had the capability of bending you, as it did, so the fact that it's taken three months off is a good sign in my book.  That's not to say it might not change on you yet, it may, but likewise, if it moves again it may be for the better.  

Again, good luck,
Nemo

[PAR]

Thanks guys, I appreciate all the advice. I do have issues with blood sugar so I will take that into account and I will look into the arginine and lysine. Has anyone help about proteolytic enzymes, fish oil and ultrasound and their possible benefits?

[flash44]

Does anyone have any information on the use of Low Level Laser Technology to treat Peyronie's?  

[Hawk]

Par,

Several of us have experience with taking different proteolytic enzymes marketed under different brands names.  The problem is that none of us that I know of have any good experience taking them.  My personal opinion is that there are far more cost effective things to spend money on unless the goal is just to spend lots of money.  If that is the qoal, proteolytic enzymes are the perfect solution

[George999]

PAR, The whole proteolytic approach is a waste of time and money in my view.  If you KNOW you have a blood sugar issue, you should spend your time, money, and effort dealing with that as a priority.  It will not only benefit you in terms of Peyronies, but also in terms of general health.  Researchers are now acknowledging that even NON-DIABETIC sugar levels can damage body tissue.  There is much evidence to suggest that Peyronies and other similar diseases are directly related to faulty sugar metabolism.  I would highly recommend to you three books:  YOU The Owners Manual, YOU on a Diet, and YOU Staying Young, all by Mehmet Oz, MD and Michael Roizen, MD.  These books can help you to understand the underlying processes involved and how to reverse them.  While there are lots of strategies that WILL help you with Peyronies from the VED to Pentox, getting your blood sugar WAY down would likely also do wonders for you and greatly benefit you in terms of Peyronies.  - George

[Tim468]

PAR

Agree with George and Hawk. Avoid the enzymatic therapy - it doesn't work (well enough) to use.

Tim

[gnosis]

I am interested in trying acupuncture with peyronie's.  I've used acupuncture for various ailments such as Plantar Fascia and stiff necks. For some ailments it seems to work for me, for others it does not.   I saw that Herazy offered an acupuncture plan, but it seemed like it cost 4 or 5 hundred dollars.  Sounds like a lot for an alternative plan???  Has anyone tried this acupuncture plan that Herazy sells?

[gnosis]

I just started a high ph approach for peyronie's.  I like to try a few "harmless" approaches which intuitively appeal to me along with ones that make more logical sense.
This approach involves drinking water with a higher ph and chlorophyll and a kind of baking soda.  The idea is to maintain a 7.2 to 8 ph in the tissues which is supposed to be ideal for healing.  It involves measuring the ph of your morning urine and saliva.  I was quite pleased that following the instructions, my morning urine tested out at 7 or 7.5 when it had previously been at 5.  

I'm mentioning this approach in case there are others who have tried it and have feedback.  

[Ralf3]

Gnosis,

sounds interesting..you mean to drink this water during the whole day or only a few times per day? How is this kind of water prepared and stored?
Maybe you should tell us something about the other cases that have benefited from it. Thanks

R3

[Iceman]

Hi - Im very new to this and got diagnosed with Peyronies Disease 2 months ago - I have been taking - lets see now:
1) Neprinol
2) Natto
3) Serralone
4) Acetyl L-Carnitine
5) Quercetin Bromelain Complec
6) Vitamin E plus C
7) EDTA chelation therapy
8 ) DHSO with Copper serum
and finally I went to my uro in Sydney who prescribed me Trental 400.
I feel like I am finally seeing an improvement - I am religiously taking all these supplements and applying the oils at night for say 2 hours plus I apply it in the morning and have have it on me during the day - theres really not an issue with this - its fine and clean and not messy - it feels like my lump is finally going down and the pain is definitely reducing.
I am actually flying from Sydney Australia to San Fran to meet with apparerntly the best Uro there so hope fully there will be some more guidance.

One question though, can anyone please tell me honestly if they have had any success with any products from the PDI website ( e.g Neprinol, Serralone etc) - am I wasting my money??

If some one who has been using these products could get back to me that would be great!!

cheers

[George999]

I can certainly give my opinion:

1) Neprinol - Useless for Peyronies  
2) Natto - Useless for Peyronies  
3) Serralone - Useless for Peyronies  
4) Acetyl L-Carnitine - Effective for Peyronies confirmed by at least one study  
5) Quercetin Bromelain Complec - Likely effective for Peyronies  
6) Vitamin E plus C - Likely effective for Peyronies  
7) EDTA chelation therapy - Possibly effective for Peyronies (EDTA is an interesting substance with some strange capabilities)  
8 ) DHSO with Copper serum - Don't know about this one  
and finally I went to my uro in Sydney who prescribed me Trental 400. - Effective for Peyronies confirmed by multiple studies on various forms of fibrosis  

Hope that is helpful.  - George

[Hawk]

George,

I laugh    and then throw something

It makes me crazy to be told that researchers conclusions do not make a thing fact by individuals that take the position that NO research is superior evidence to some research.  

It is like saying researchers conclude the dark side of the moon is much the same compesition as the light side.  They cannot be sure.  Therefore it is made of green cheese!

If you have nothing more than "could be therefore must be" then I cannot argure your point.

Well, I could....

[Iceman]

I posted some comments yesterday and I need to know if there is any feedback from people using Neprinol or Serralone or Nattokinase - I got diagnosed with Peyronies Disease 2 months ago and have speant allot of money importing this product from the US to Australia - is it worth it ? and is there any other topical treatments I can use....please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[nemo]

Iceman, I recall a couple guys on the forum mentioned using Neprinol, but I don't remeber anyone feeling like it did much to help.  

As to topical treatments, I'm afraid conventional wisdom is that they don't penetrate enough to do any good.  Topical Verapamil was the great hope a few years ago, but it never proved to be anything more than a high priced waste of time for most.  

Verapamil delivery through the use of an Iontophoresis device does seem to be more promising, however, but these machines run you about $1,000 (available from a company called Physion).  I'm about to start trying this myself this week.  

Good luck,
Nemo  

[Iceman]

thanks for getting back to me - what about DMSO and copper serum CP - this was recommended on a website called the Peyronies Disease Institute - the said that the DMSO work the copper into the skin and penetrates deep down - have you heard of this?

[Iceman]

sorry for posting my messgae twice as I am unsure of this forum - all I want to know is some feedback on:

1) DMSO + Copper Serum ( part of Thackers Formula)
2) Trental 400 - has anyone used this and has anyone had a positive effect
3) why are there so many positive reports for Thackers formula yet you guys are so negative about these types of treatments..

many many thx

[nemo]

DMSO was an integral part of Thacker's Formula.  Several here tried it, some (myself included) with mild benifits, but nothing too impressive.  As to copper - I've never heard of that being used, but it seems like at one time or another, guys with Peyronies Disease will try any and everything.  

Now, Trental is also known as Pentoxifilline (Pentox), which is a prescription drug that is being looked to with great hope by leading Peyronies Disease doctors (and several of us here).  That one's definitely worth trying.  

Nemo

[bodoo2u]

Does anyone know about this stuff being used for treating Peyronies Disease: recombinant human superoxide-desmutase?

I saw it in a PDF document titled "Male Sexual Function and its Disorders." I found it at this site:

http://edrv.endojournals.org/

[Angus]

sorry for posting my messgae twice as I am unsure of this forum - all I want to know is some feedback on:

1) DMSO + Copper Serum ( part of Thackers Formula)
2) Trental 400 - has anyone used this and has anyone had a positive effect
3) why are there so many positive reports for Thackers formula yet you guys are so negative about these types of treatments..

many many thx

    Copper Serum was never part of the original Thackers Formula. It was only DMSO, apple cider vinegar and castor oil, unless you meant Copper Serum added to Thackers.
    A WHOLE bunch of guys on this forum mixed Thackers and applied it every day in the past, including myself. It successfully turned some guys skin red and made our breath stink seconds after applying it. Other than being a mess to concoct (speaking for myself here) it did nothing for Peyronies. There are horse people who apply DMSO to horses legs for certain ailments and claim it works, but I can't talk to the horse and verify. If Thackers actually worked as some posters in other boards claim, the news would have spread like wildfire and actual case studies would have proven it. So far, I've seen nothing like this, only some random posts and some websites that claim victory with Thackers. DMSO will absorb through the skin and get into your system with lightning speed, as shown by garlic-like breath mere seconds after application. I tossed the DMSO, put the vinegar on salads and used the castor oil in model airplane fuel, and for me personally, those were the best uses for the ingredients. So for me, a former user of Thackers, it is a whimsical formula that needs to be put to rest once and for all as a Peyronies treatment. I have not read nor seen any evidence that someones Peyronies was improved by Thackers as a sole treatment. To me, reading a post or article that claims success with Thackers is not evidence.
     

[ocelot556]

I made a post a few months ago regarding a trip I had to a new Urologist. He prescribed to me a gel from a local natural pharmacy (the same place I get my Arginine and full-spectrum e) that was called only "peyronie's gel" and is said to include only topical ACL-Carntinine and EDTA (which is a chelating agent).

I recently lost my health insurance, so haven't been back to the doctor since he first prescribed this to me, though I contacted him over the phone to enquire how it works. He said that the function of the gel was to soften the plaques, the EDTA specifically acting as a calcium-channel blocker. I'm not sure how that plays a role (as I'm unsure as to how calcium affects fibrosis, but I'm not a doctor...) but whatever the cause, I'm reporting how it's going.

I was told that the treatment takes 6-9 months, and it's currently month 3. I've been somewhat lax from time to time, so it's really creeping on 4 months but I'm still on my 3rd month's supply. You have to apply 5 cc's twice a day, and given that the pharmacist advised I "rub it in good" I'm generally trying to acheive at least a moderate erection  - "half-mast" - before applying. Not always successful, as sometimes I have to apply it in my workplace's public bathroom!

It's not a silver bullet, by any means...and I think over the course of the past few months the disease itself has progressed...but I am confident that this gel had a beneficial effect on curbing the progression of the curve. Additionally, I have been applying the gel most frequently and in higher amounts on one large plaque on the left side of my wanger. It seems as if that plaque, while not diminishing in size, has grown mildly softer than I remember. There is no perceptible decrease in bend yet, but I am heartened by what I beleive to be progress. I can't be sure if it's A) The more longterm use of L-Arginine, B) The fact that I am prompting more erections simply by "preparing" to apply the gel, or C) Have used, very infrequently, Viagra supplements when I feel a bout of inflammation coming on. I beleive that when I take Vitamin E, however, it seems to exacerbate the curve noticably...so I have stopped taking it, thinking perhaps it incites whatever faulty collagen process caused my fibrosis in the first place.

Nothing more to report, other than what I'm going through. I'm hoping that in three more months treatment I will be able to officially confirm or deny if this has changed the rigidity of my plaque. If you guys have appointments with knowledgable uros, please ask about the mix -- I can't find much about it on the net, short of using EDTA as angina medication.

[bodoo2u]

Ocelot,

When you say that the doctor "prescribed" Peyronie's Gel did he give you a legal prescription, or was it something that you could buy from the pharmacist without the prescription? I also want to know what you mean when you say it has helped even as your Peyronies Disease progressed.

Fellas, does anyone else have any experience with Peyronie's Gel, and if so, what were the results?

[nemo]

Yes, Hawk, every time I see that I break out in a cold sweat since I was using a rice sock that was well above that temperature.  I have no idea if I did any damage, but the thought is frightening.

Nemo

[nemo]

Yeah, that's the thing ... I always used the rice sock on my neck at the same temperature, and when I used it "downstairs," it never even remotely felt painful or uncomfortable - in fact, it felt pretty good. I never had any sign of skin irritation or anything that would cause me alarm.  Then, when I read that study talking about damage at just a little over 100 degrees ... well, let's just say it's caused some frightening thoughts to run through my mind.    

[George999]

Tissue is tissue and if the rice sock didn't leave you with permanent damage in the neck it is unlikely it would do permanent damage any where else.  I think where the problem really becomes complex is when you are using something like microwaves that can "trick" the senses and also when you are moving into a clinical environment where a patient might "tolerate" pain thinking that the doctor "knows what he/she is doing".  I really don't think you have too much to worry about other than the fact that it is unlikely to be very effective.  - George

[Iceman]

hi guys - now that ive been shot down in flames and will toss out the:
Neprinol, DMSO + Copper serum, Natto + SErralone - is there anything that I can buy or use ( I am currently on Trental 400 and EDTA chelation drops - which taste terrible) which may help me......I often read that Peyronies Disease treatment is like the scales of justice; you have to keep adding weights whatever they maybe to the other side to tip the scales in your favour - so is there anything that can be recommended? - BTW - not too keen on VED stuff.

Again thx