Peyronies Society Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Highlights of Oral Treatments  (Read 29824 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Liam

  • Major Contributor
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1013
  • ...grab some scalpels and settle this like doctors
Highlights of Oral Treatments
« on: September 02, 2006, 03:24:04 PM »

This area contains highlights from the main Peyronies Disease Discussion Forum topic on "Oral Treatments - Vitamins, Precription, Herbs, Supplements,...".  This area contains information on variety of oral treatments, discussions of their use, and links to research.

As with all the topics on this newly diagnosed board, these topics are read only highlights copied from the main forum.  Go to the main forum to join in the exchange by posting questions and comments.
Logged
"I don't ask why patients lie, I just assume they all do."
House

Angus

  • Solid Contributor
  • ***
  • Country: us
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 308
Highlights of Oral Treatments
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2007, 11:33:59 PM »

 The following is a one-post compilation of highlights from hundreds of posts in the Oral Treatments thread. Individual posts have been copied into this page and no grammar or wording has been changed from the original post. Entire posts have been copied where possible to retain the context of the original post. The posts are entered in chronological order from the top of the page to the bottom, so the oldest posts will be read first and the most recent posts will be read last. This IS a work in progress and will be added to and edited so check back often.

             Highlights of Oral Treatments



************************************************************************
Joshua            « Reply #44 on: September 28, 2005, 08:16:27 PM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do not suffer from Erectile Dysfunction However; I am always interested in erection boosters/enhancers. I use NOS and 5 grams of liquid arginine almost nightly to bolster my erection strength and help attack Peyronies Disease plaque.

I think strong frequent erections are the best medicine for Peyronies Disease therefore I tried trazodone for a few nights to test Hawks theory.  The first night it flat knocked me out. I went to sleep and had a great nights sleep. I tried it again the second night and I had an endless rock erection. My erection was so strong it almost ached. I woke up in the middle of the night with one of the hardest erections I have ever had. The only thing I didn’t like was it seemed like it took much longer to achieve an orgasm. However, this blows anything I have ever tried out of the water. I have used it here and there for erection strength but I don’t want to become dependent on it so I have backed off lately. Thanks Hawk for the tip! Guys get some of this it works! I am about to hit one right now



***************************************************************************

Hawk     « Reply #45 on: September 28, 2005, 09:33:09 PM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe Joshua posted that the only reason the first dose knocked him out is because he took a 100 mg tablet.  While that is still a light doses for depression, all you need for nght time erections is half of a 50 mg tablet taken WITH FOOD.

It is dirrt cheap, may help you sleep, no adverse effects.  It is usuall prescribed from 100mg to 450 mg daily so you can see how insignificant 50mg is.  If you have a good GP and explain what you want it for, most will redily comply because it is an insignificant dose except for the erections.

So far it has worked on 3 for 3 people tried it.  I take it almost nightly.


***************************************************************************



Hawk     « Reply #48 on: September 29, 2005, 08:03:43 AM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: Old Man on September 28, 2005, 10:55:42 PM

Question for Hawk:

Since I have a radical non nerve-sparing prostatectomy that left me totally impotent, do you think that the trazodone would work for me? I can achieve only a partial erection on my own either manually stimulated or with help from the wife. The VED has been the only means of achieving a good solid erection since the surgery.

Also, does it require an RX? Old Man
Answer- Old Man - If you can get a partial erection without taking anything, you are ahead of me.  I can get a partial erection only with Viagra.  If you ever get even partial night-time erections I am fairly confident it will work to give you good night-time erections.

Will it work for daytime Sexual Activity? This is a very difficult question.  I am almost embarrassed to say I have never really tried it.  The reason is that my solid erections only occur while sleeping and last only shortly after I wake-up.  Right now since I may still be rebuilding nerves, (17 months after a prostatectomy), getting solid erections sometimes is important.  Because of that I take trazodone when I know it will work.  I use viagra and and/or a VED for sex.  I have woke up with solid Trazadone erections only to have them fade away within minutes of waking up.  I can only deduce that I have stress/anxiety factors kicking adrenalin into my system.  When adrenalin receptors in the penis detect adrenalin, it guarantees loss of erection.  In fact it is how they treat prolonged erection (priapism)

RX -  You do need an Rx for trazodone.  My family doctor is the best.  He actually takes time, talks to me, and allows me to be a partner in managing my health.  I told him I wanted an Rx for 25 mg of trazodone per night.  His response was "if you are having sleep problems that is barely enough to have any impact.”  I explained that I have heard it causes erections, that I need erections for blood flow, and that I refuse to follow Dr. Mulhall’s advice to continue penile injections for blood flow because of the Peyronies Disease.  I also told him I have some manageable depression issues anyway.  He told me 25 mg of trazodone is way to small to have any likely impact on depression but we would try it.  For the erections.  The very first night it worked great. It continues to work.

Trazodone was tested and marketed for depression.  It has a very long history and they have found it also works for mild to moderate sleep problems.  It is prescribed at 100mg to 450 mg daily for depression (the larger dose is divided through the day).  It is prescribed at 50 mg prior to bed for sleep problems.  It only takes only 25 mg for erections which are listed only as a side effect.  In essence, I take it for the side effect.  Does the side effect kick in with everyone?  I don't know.  I personally know three people who have tried it, and all three have experienced the side effect..

PS: It does not make me groggy.  I awake refreshed, I can skip a night and I still sleep fine without it so I see NO dependence issues at such minimal doses.  It is cheaper than aspirin.

I may move these posts to “Erectile Dysfunction” and also leave a copy here.


***************************************************************************


DCaptain    « Reply #120 on: December 21, 2005, 12:50:11 PM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cortong,

Happy holidays.  I can chime in on the Nattokinase end.  I did try it for about a month and a half or so - I took 60 pills worth.  These were very small pills (only 50 mg each), so I would often take 3-4 a day.  I noted no effect on the Peyronies Disease either in terms of plaque size or curve, although obviously I only took them for a short time and gave up.

One caution - I would say Nattokinase definitely has some effect on the blood.  I got a bit light-headed the first time I took it, and this basically continued, although it lessenned over time.  Nattokinase supposedly lowers blood pressure as well, so that may be it.  I don't know as I don't have a monitor to check BP, but something was definitely up with the Nattokinase.  I don't know if anyone else had the same happen, but I'd just say be sure to be careful. 



**************************************************************************


Gandalf            « Reply #277 on: June 07, 2006, 10:10:01 AM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've noticed that Acetyl L Carnitine stopped the slight pain and discomfort I had as soon as I added it to my treatments on my Peyronies Disease.  I truely believe this to be effective in stopping the pain and possibly preventing the curve from getting worse.

Gandalf


*************************************************************************


Tim468              « Reply #290 on: June 16, 2006, 09:44:11 AM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please remember that Pentoxifylline modifies and affects the production and release of TGF-Beta, a proinflammatory cytokine (cytokines are molecules that modulate or cause inflammation).

TGF-BEta is postulated to cause some of the inflammatory cascade of Peyronies Disease by stimulating collagen gene expression, which is turned off by the use of Pentox. One problem is that using it after the fact is sort of closing the barn door after the cows get out, but insofar as inflammation is an ongoing process, it can help turn off and reduce the ongoing (increased) production of collagen. That, in turn, might allow the natural "turnover" process to allow for degradation of existing collagen. I think that a combination therapy of turning off production (Pentox) coupled with a degradation promoting drug like Verapamil may prove most helpful.

Obviously, much clinical work in the form of blinded studies needs to be done.




**************************************************************************


wantitstr8             « Reply #333 on: June 28, 2006, 11:09:27 PM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just to let you guys know, I've been on Pentox and Arginine for about 5 weeks and I am seeing definite signs of improvement.  Curvature has been reduced by about 20 degrees and erection quality is as good as it was prior to the onset of Peyronies Disease.  I am also using traction and taking Neprinol and Vitamin E.  I have also had 5 Verapamil injections...but am seriously thinking about stopping those at my next visit.  Not sure Pentox is a miracle drug but I really think it is helping.  I also think traction seems to be helping.  I have found some lost size (I think from traction).  I'll keep everyone informed on progress, not sure this is a miracle "cure" but something seems to be getting this under control...from a timing perspective, I can correlate the improvement to beginning Pentox, Arginine, and traction.  I may just be seeing the natural progression of my particular affliction, however, I'll take the coincidence...


************************************************************************


Liam                  « Reply #371 on: July 05, 2006, 09:25:49 AM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADNO - arginine derived nitric oxide

In a laymans understanding,  l-arginine is a precursor to nitric oxide.  Nitric Oxide is what causes smooth muscle in the blood vessels of the penis (and other places) to relax.  This increases blood flow and, in turn, improves oxygenation and the removal of CO2 and other waste products.

This is the same basic principal that allows the "big three" Erectile Dysfunction drugs to work.

It is believed by some increased bloodflow may improve  the symptoms of Peyronies Disease.

Here is a link to one of many article I have found.  It does not address l-arginine but, does a good job of explaining how NO is used for an erection.

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/press/2002/MARCH/020318.htm




******************************************************************************


George999               « Reply #381 on: July 07, 2006, 03:17:17 PM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In terms of Vitamin E, I did some very careful observation and most certainly noted an effect from it, and that effect was much greater with the latest type premium product containing all eight toco's.  My observation involved repeated changing the amount and type of vitamin E and then observing the effects on my erections during the time period immediately following.  What I admit to being unclear on concerning vitamin E are whether or not those benefits are long term in some way or whether they are basically just treating the symptoms short term.

As for metoprolol/Lopressor, I would add that ALL beta-blockers should be suspect for people with Peyronies and most doctors are not aware of this even though this is very old news.  In particular, note these citations: Peyronie's disease and systemic lupus erythematosus syndrome associated with metoprolol administration: a case report - PubMed
Labetalol-induced Peyronie's disease? A case report - PubMed

In response to Kevin's comment about the "payload" carried by the blood, one can get into the whole issue of mental stress, aldosterone and resulting inhibition of plasmin, the body's enzyme for disolving excess plaque.  Hypertension, as well as other conditions can also result in excessive releases of aldosterone.  I think that this is important, in that if your blood is filled with a plaque friendly chemistry, no amount of vitamin E or other such approach is going to do the job.  I am currently using two approaches to deal with this factor.  First of all I am using aloe vera.  I take two aloe vera soft gels a day, one before lunch, another before bed.  They are dirt cheap.  Aloe vera is known for its ability to diminish scar tissue.  Taken internally, it has been shown to inhibit bradykinen (a smooth muscle inflamitory agent) and prostaglandin.  Additionally, it has been shown to reduce bad cholesterol, increase good cholesterol and reduce blood sugar.  I did not initially take it for the Peyronies, but rather for an intestinal ailment.  I also had severe heart palpitations which my doctor was unable to treat without resorting to draconian means.  Within 24hrs after taking the aloe, the palpitations stopped and stopping and starting the aloe turned them on and off like a switch.  I've now been on the aloe well over a year and eventually realized that the aloe might be helping my Peyronies as well.  Only the soft gels provide the above benefits, but they are very uniform and consistant, available from a wide range of manufacturers.  They also are effective transdermally.  If you cut open a softgel and apply the contents, you will notice the effect on the plaque right thru the skin.   Aloe has an irritating effect specifically on scar tissue and causes it to shrink and harden.  This effect is transient and after some hours the plaque will again soften to its former state.  It has a similar more subtle effect when taken internally, but my experience is that with continual use, the plaque eventually softens even with the aloe.  I have no proof at this point that this is a positive process, but I strongly suspect that it is and thus view aloe very positively with regard to Peyronies.  As for the safety of aloe, there are a few minor interactions mainly with steroids and people with diabetes or hypertension should be aware that it can affect their numbers, but it has been used for years as an herb and there are really no high profile safety concerns.  Beyond that lies the infamous Neprinol and its constituent ingredients which are all purported to address the issue brought up by Kevin.

As for Tim's post, I have also found maca to be a very interesting supplement in regard to Peyronies.  For those of you who might not be aware, maca is a Peruvian radish that has very intresting effects on the body.  It has been consumed as a food for years by the people of the Andes and is thus pretty much guaranteed to be safe.  How it actually works has really never been precisely figured out, but it is able to modify the body's response to certain hormones with actually changing the hormone levels themselves.  It is suspected that it acts indirectly on the pitituary gland but this has never been proven.  What is known is that it can make a man more sensitive to testosterone without actually affecting testosterone levels.  Similarly it modifies a womans response to estrogen.  It, like aloe, is dirt cheap.  I am currently taking a gram a day.  The results are subtle, but generally include noticibly increased libido, and more frequent and intense erections.  There are some studies and they show that it significantly boosts fertility for men and thus probably generally addresses sexual health in terms of prostate, testes, etc.

So I just throw these thoughts out to consider, since these supplements aren't normally associated with Peyronies.




**************************************************************************



George999                    « Reply #395 on: July 08, 2006, 07:42:33 PM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The pharmacology of aloe vera is quite a fascinating study, here are a few interesting examples:

Blood soluble drag-reducing polymers prevent lethality from hemorrhagic shock in acute animal experiments - PubMed

Note the effect of aloe on blood flow apparently due to the fact that it literally lubricates the vascular system.

Prevention of atheromatous heart disease - PubMed

How is that for a stunning study?

Isozymes of superoxide dismutase from Aloe vera - PubMed

This is just one study investigating some components from aloe.  Aloe vera is loaded with exotic substances.


****************************************************************************



Gandalf     « Reply #475 on: July 28, 2006, 10:48:10 AM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I took trazodone last night, half a pill before I went to sleep.  I woke up twice being half awake and had solid erections, when I woke up today I had excellent bloodflow and my member was hanging bigger than normal.  This drug is really cheap only $4 per month with my insurance copay.  I think this can only be a good thing, especially after reading this out of the library here on the site:

"Oxygen levels appear to affect two substances that are important in achieving
erection: transforming growth factor 1 (TGF-B1) and prostaglandin E1. The
smooth muscles in the penis produce TGF-B1, a component of the immune system,
and one of its roles is to produce collagen. Collagen contributes not only to
structural tissue in the body, but is also the material that comprises scar
tissue. Prostaglandin E1, among its other functions, opens blood vessels and
suppresses collagen production. There is some evidence that when oxygen levels
become too low, TGF-B1 production increases and prostaglandin production
decreases. If oxygen levels become too low, smooth muscles atrophy and collagen
is overproduced, causing scarring and loss of elasticity and reduced blood flow
to the penis. Infrequent erections deprive the penis of oxygen-rich blood.
Without daily erections, collagen production increases and eventually may form
a tough tissue that interferes with blood flow in the penis."

It also reads on that nightime erections give much more oxygen to the penis than daytime erections. I also read that erections caused by a VED can't supplement natural erections, cause they bring in no fresh oxygen. 

It would seem to me that if trazodone can give one nighttime erections and bring in fresh oxygen when its most pure, this could be a good thing to possibly help heal the peyronies plaque, or prevent further collagen development.



**************************************************************************


Hawk               « Reply #480 on: July 28, 2006, 01:37:31 PM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trazodone is long-established, well tested,  with a long history of being safe and well-tolerated.

It is not habit-forming.

I comes in 50mg, 100mg, 200mg, and 300mg tablets

Starting dose for adults being treated for depression is 50mgs 3 times per day

Even at daily doses of  600mg (in divided doses), It is very rare that it causes any level of prolonged erection is males with or without erectile problems.

It is unheard of for a 25mg dose to cause prolonged erection in anyone, much less one with compromised erections.

At 25mg, Its success rate for restoring nocturnal erections is very consistent.  This is an astounding 1/6 of a beginning intake and 1/24th of a maximum intake of this drug. 

It is dirt cheap

It has been used in many Erectile Dysfunction clinical trials with and without other substances such a Yohimbe.

It has a few drug and alcohol interactions

Trazodone - Wikipedia   (this is one of about a million links)


***************************************************************************


Tim468          « Reply #619 on: August 23, 2006, 10:29:25 PM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is my rationale, and an update on how I am doing:

Horny goat weed for it's phosphodiesterase activity that makes it work "like" viagra. It may not be much cheaper, though, unless you look for a good deal. Mine just came with Maca in it (I didn't notice when I bought it). It is definitely leading to harder erections for me (see below).

I take the maca because I believe that my testosterone levels are low, and this can affect that axis by either reducing other androgens, or increasing bioavailable testosterone. I took it to promote healthier erections and libido. Not sure of any effect yet.

Finally, in a head to head comparison I read, "Korean Red Ginseng" led to no different effects than placebo on a lot of erectile dysfunction scores. But it did do one interesting thing.. it lead to longer erections at night, which is what trazadone does. Basicly, think of viagra as opening the flood gates to let blood into the penis, and trazadone as a drug that prevents the blood from draining out. Well, the ginseng worked better than trazadone on that one thing. So, I postulate it may have an alpha adrenergic blocade effect (like trazadone).

So, I happened to start both at once, and I have been waking up - um, as hard as a rock. I have stopped both, and I plan to selectively restart one at a time (I am starting with the Red Ginseng - actually a mix of all three common ginsengs), to see if I can figure out if both or only one is needed.

Tim




*****************************************************************************


George999                 « Reply #624 on: August 24, 2006, 12:49:21 PM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There have to be a number of physiological conditions that can encourage the kind of scarring that causes peyronies.  So, depending on what the cause(s) is/are, the solution might be different for different individuals.  zigwyth inquired about horny goat weed.  So, now that Tim has posted his comments, let me add the following.  Horny goat weed is one of those herbs deeply rooted in Chinese herbal medicine that is now becoming popular in the west.  Horny goat weed contains icariin.  Icariin is known to be a PDE-5/PDE-4 inhibitor.  Many people who suffer from impotence have the problem because of an excessive amount of PDE-5.  PDE-5 is the regulatory substance for nitric oxide.  In the case of male sexual function, too much PDE-5 causes impotence.  On the other hand too little PDE-5 (or too much inhibition of existing PDE-5) causes priapism and other bad effects.  So it is extremely important that PDE-5 levels be properly controlled.  The same is true with hypertension (and perhaps other aspects of metabolic syndrome).  Too much PDE-5 in the vascular tissue and that tissue atrophies and hardens in the absence of nitric oxide.  But similarly, even in the vascular system, PDE-5 is necessary to prevent an overproduction of nitric oxide which can result in hypotension as well as other bad effects.  Liam brought up Cnidium Monnier. Cnidium Monnier is another Chinese herbal substance which is claimed to be a PDE-5 inhibitor.  At this point Cnidium Monnier is less known in the west and is usually found only as a component of more complex (usually body building type) supplements.  The problem then becomes, what are the effects of these other substances, or if I buy the Cnidium Monnier directly from the Chinese herbalists, what sort of toxic payload might the Cnidium Monnier be carrying along with it.  Certainly it is an interesting herlbal substance, but at this point I am not daring enough to incorporate it.  I am also put off by the lack of solid research behind it, at least horny goat weed has some solid research in terms of its effect on PDE-5.  The other interesting aspect of horny goat weed is that it is a CNS depressant (it acts against cortisol) in contrast to substances like yohimbe which, while being a vascular relaxant (via a non PDE-5 channel), also tends to be an anxiety stimulant.  Unlike horny goat weed, Viagra inhibits not only PDE-5 (nitric oxide pathway), but also PDE-4 (inflamation) AND PDE-3 (optic issues), and thus is a non-specific PDE inhibitor.  Both PDE-5 and PDE-4 effects may be helpful in the case of peyronies, since nitric oxide not only dialates blood vessels, but is also known to disolve plaque (collagen) and rejuvinate atrophied tissues.  And of course the anti-inflamation effect of PDE-4 inflamation is important for obvious reasons.  Levitra and Cialis tend to be more PDE-5 specific with Cialis being known for its extremely long lasting inhibition of PDE-5.  Incidently cocoa is a broad spectrum PDE inhibitor which could cover a range of topics and studies are showing that consumption of cocoa results in demonstrably improved health.   zigwyth also inquired as to why  horny goat weed is often combined with maca.  The answer to that question goes back to the whole concept of Chinese herbalism.  While western medicine seeks to isolate and employ highly refined substances a 'mono therapies', Chinese herbalism takes the opposite approach constantly seeking to find synergies between naturally occuring substances.  Thus there are some interesting synergies of horny goat weed with maca.  Maca is also know to improve sexual function through different mechanisms and is reputed to increase alertness and energy without stimulating the central nervous system.  Maca also contains high levels of arginine which is a perfect fit with the PDE-5 suppressing capability of horny goat weed.  Horny goat weed opens the channel, maca supplies the fuel.  All of this is very subtle, but also very incremental, with results claimed at least to become more obvious over time.  Going back to Viagra, Viagra was initially developed as a medication for hypertension, then its sexual effects were noted and the rest is history.  There is a lot more money for the drug companies in fighting impotence than there is in fighting hypertension.  At this point Viagra is actually marketed queitly under another brand name for the treatment of pulminary hypertension and Cialis is in the midst of trials for the treatment of essential hypertension.  The more one studies the research, the more the links between metabolic syndrome and peyrones (and other degenerative diseases) become obvious.  I certainly hope this information is helpful to better understanding of these substances.  It is all observations that I have gleaned through many hours of searching the internet and comparing notes.  If anyone has further questions, or corrections, please feel free to chime in.  We are all learning from each other, and through that, hopefully finding things that are helpful.  And I can attest for one that there is much I have learned right here on this forum.  God bless you all.

- George


*****************************************************************************



George999       « Reply #706 on: September 01, 2006, 01:54:38 PM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The first things I always try to look at with a given supplement OR drug are:

 1) Known levels of toxicity (Some supplements commonly sold in health food stores are toxic in and of themselves or become toxic once a certain level is reached).  In my mind Vitamin A is a PRIME EXAMPLE.  To few people are aware of the toxic potential of Vitamin A and the fact that cod-liver oil, a popular supplement contains high levels of vitamin A.

2) Known levels of contamination risk (Some supplements, due to their source, are much more prone to contamination than others.  Some carry the risk of contamination from heavy metals such a lead or mercury.  Others from pesticides and herbisides.  Still others from more exotic and insidious sources.  In some cases, certain herbs are grown in an enviroment where other species grow that happen to be known and potent carcinogens.  Want to add some of that to your diet?  Not me!)

3) Known side effects.  (Even highly beneficial supplements can have side effects.  Is there benefit worth the pain?)

4) Known interactions with other drugs and supplements.  (Most of these are minor and are simply things to be aware of, others are potentially deadly.  It is important to learn and know the difference.

5) Known effects on other nutrients.  (Most natural nutrients either increase or deplete levels of other totally unrelated nutrients.   This is just one of the problems with alpha-tocopherol as a stand alone nutrient.  But also increased levels of vitamin E along with increased levels of vitamin A CAN gang up to deplete vitamin K which CAN lead to serious clotting issues.)  All of this is actually related to interactions, but often studies, as well as individuals, tend to overlook the possibility that the problem is not being caused by the nutrient itself, but by its collateral damage which could be easily corrected if addressed.  In fact an interesting case would be the matter of statin drugs which not only deplete cholesterol (a possibly beneficial effect), but also deplete levels of serum CoQ10, an essential nutrient.  This in and of itself can lead to heart failure and few health professionals pay attention to this subtle but important side effect/interaction that could be easily remedied.  My strong belief is that everyone on statins should also be concurremtly on CoQ10 supplementation, it would do them no harm and could very easily extend their life, since statins actually block the bodies ability to synthesize CoQ10.

My point here is that you all out there, including medical professionals, make it a point to pay attention to the subtle effects of various supplements and drugs, and not be afraid to ask questions and expect straight up and verifiable answers.

My sincerest appologies to all for beiing extremely off-topic here, but I believe these are some essential issues concerning supplements and drugs in general.

- George




**************************************************************************


Hawk                « Reply #1020 on: October 15, 2006, 06:10:07 PM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is likely that I take more supplements than anyone on this forum.  I did so before Peyronies Disease as part of adjunct treatment for aggressive prostate cancer that I was told had a 50% chance of returning.  Much of it is based on Ph.D.'s in nutrition, naturopathic medicine, and MDs from Cancer Treatment Centers of America.  For decades, as a bodybuilder, I studied the most sound information I could find on supplements.  I suspect that IF we knew everything yet to be discovered, that we could prevent and cure virtually all diseases if we only knew every fact about nutrition and knew what was going on in our bodies and when it was occurring.  When is that first cell getting ready to mutate into cancer, when is that trigger getting ready to produce scar tissue or other auto-immune response?  The problem is that the scientific community collectively has not even scratched the surface on either of these topics so we have a few facts with 99.9% of the picture hidden.  There are hundreds if not thousands of nutrients that have yet to even be identified.  New ones are isolated yearly with little understanding of their effect or their interaction within a complex body.  We know NOTHING of their role as it relates to interaction with other nutrients.  Why do smokers get increased rates of cancer if given the antioxidant beta carotene?  Why does milk kill the benefits of dark chocolate?  How and when may arginine be either beneficial or detrimental to Peyronies Disease.  Does vitamin C protect cancer cells along with normal cells, or does it enhance chemo and radiation therapy?  The list is 5 miles long before we even discuss the impact of timing or the interaction of one supplement with another.  Add the complexity of individual chemistry.  Why does Tim get fewer side effects from Cialis when Cialis gives me killer backaches and Levitra leaves me free of known side effects?  We worry that Viagra may not be evenly distributed in a pill but seldom question how an MD arrived at the recommended dose that is the same for Peyronies Disease patients whether they are a 265 lb man with total Erectile Dysfunction or a 145 lb man without Erectile Dysfunction.  They both get prescribed 25 mg per nite.  Would 15 or 35 mg be better

Next, let's add the fact that supplement manufacturers do not need to register their products with FDA nor get FDA approval before producing or selling supplements. Manufacturers must only make sure that product label information is truthful and not misleading (in theory).  FDA's post-marketing responsibilities include monitoring safety, e.g. voluntary dietary supplement adverse event reporting. The Federal Trade Commission regulates dietary supplement advertising.   With these loose controls and thousands of products hitting the market with new names yearly, independent labs find that many supplements have less than 1/10 of the active ingredient that is advertised on the label.  Many have heavy metal contamination or other ingredients including prescription drugs mixed in.  While this is the minority, our belief that we are taking the same supplement dosage as another is often based more on faith than knowledge.  Often people here say I "believe in arginine" or whatever.  Or I believe you should cycle off of supplements.  Those statements of belief (faith) rather than knowledge (I think), maybe more appropriate than we wish they were.

I hope none of us ever conclude that we have nutrition figured out and that we remind ourselves and others that visit here that we are often panning for gold in some random local creek.  We hope we just might make that lucky find instead of the equally likely possibility that we could fall in and drown.


***************************************************************************


George999            « Reply #1224 on: November 28, 2006, 10:56:46 AM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Walmart $4 drug list is here: http://i.walmart.com/i/if/hmp/fusion/genericdruglist.pdf and currently only trazadone is on it.  Not Pentoxifylline and certainly not Viagra which has several more years to go before going off patent .




***************************************************************************
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
4 Replies
2285 Views
Last post December 14, 2020, 02:14:00 PM
by iceberg1
5 Replies
2805 Views
Last post April 11, 2018, 01:05:43 PM
by ForestLover
0 Replies
1742 Views
Last post October 10, 2018, 07:56:48 PM
by Hawk