Progression of Peyronie's Disease

[Liam]

This link has a radiograph of Peyronies Disease.  I've seen many questions about the size and shape of the plaque.  You know the worth of one picture.


http://www.ijri.org/articles/ARCHIVES/2004-14-2/gastro_Imaging-153.htm

[howcanthisbe]

so im trying to hold onto a glimmer of hope here. Does anyone ever get better? I mean I can take a up bend and even some indentation but when it comes to ED, I cant take that. As long as I can have pretty normal sex im ok, so do you guys think alot of people with Peyronies Disease can have a normal sex life? Thanks

[Hawk]

Yes i think a lot of people with Peyronies Disease have a normal sex life.  Many on this forum.  I also think that many more make reasonable adjustments that are quite satisfying for them and their partner.  Truthfully some are more impaired with greater challenges.  Their degree of happiness depends largely on their attitude and what they choose to dwell on, because that part is still a choice.

I wish I could totally put your mind at ease but I have no idea if I will wake-up tomorrow.  If I do, I am determined to make the best of whatever I get dealt.  You have to make the same choice and take heart that things are seldom as grim as they first seem.

[Liam]

Howcanthisbe,

I reread your first post.  Anything is possible.  But, if you've been two years and have no more problems than you say, you are home free.  Anything could happen, but it doesn't sound bad.  It may not even be Peyronies Disease. (only a doc can tell you for sure)

As far as ED.  You were on target about alcohol consumption causing ED.  Drinking 24+ beers in a night, I don't know how you were walking.  Instead of worrying about vitamin E and supplements, you should start worrying about alcohol.

Try a Google search of Erectile Dysfunction and Alcohol.

Good Luck!

Liam

[howcanthisbe]

Thanks Laim and Hawk. Im just worried about not being able to have sex eventually, if I could stay at the state im at right now I would be fine. I just need to keep my head up, ive heard the VED use helps alot of people if done correctly for a extended time. So its good that there is a little hope that the condition can get better with proper care. I think my main problem is right now that im 23 and single. When I get a girlfriend it will greatly ease my mind if she doesnt notice it or doesnt see it as a problem. Just thinking of the condition steals my youth away, I need to get my head straight and see if it gets any worse. Thanks for the support.

[Tyler]

23, i feel your pain man, i am 16. To me my youth is gone. I will never go "skinny dipping" "Streaking" or even attempt to have sex with the light on unless i can figure out a way to fix my problem. Im sorry you had to develop this so young.

[torontoguy]

my case: peyronie diagnosed two years ago. I am healthy, no smoke, no drink, good habits, no crazy stuff during sex, not recalling any injury. However I have herpes virus, diagnosed 4 years ago, with several recurrences during the first year, and not very bothersome in the last 2 years.
onset: feeling slight pain during erection on the top of my penis, first third starting from the belly. No bending or erection issues
diagnosing method: felt a nodule pea sized near the base in flaccid state, in the top rigth and I feel it by holding it with my thumb on top and pointing finger in the bottom side. During erection nothing is felt. Went to two doctors, they ordered ultrasound and ultrasound revealed some calcification.

treatment: doctor recommended wait and see, just take vitE 400, which in fact I had already being doing it 1y before the diagnostic, as part as my supplements cocktail (vite,b, c, multivitamins)

progress:
1-after diagnosed and manipulated by the doctor, started having pain even in flaccid state, it lasted for 1month, then no pain in flaccid state. In erection state, slight pain lasted for 4months more
2-after 1y, slight bend to the left, slightly up, small bump in the top where it seems the lump would be however not felt during erection.
3-as of now, I think that the erection in the base of the penis is not as strong as it used to be and if I have the lady on top I lose the erection.

my concern: despite the lump staying similar in size and position to what it was before, if I manipulate it, e.g rub it briefly with my fingers as I have been doing in the last two years to evaluate its progress, I start having discomfort in the penis, scrotum and sometimes the anus, hard to explain, a mixture of tingling+burning+freezing, that last up to 12h.

Has somebody experienced something like this, eg. discomfort or pain only after manipulation?

Other thing: if I masturbate I feel somediscomfort like that above afterwards but milder; if I have sex I feel ok.

I don't know about the concept of plaque, what I feel is a nodule or  near-round/smooth-edged mass, in the top-right, however my slight bend goes to the left. I am panicking about this pain, thinking it might be this is not peyronie after all but a rare form of cancer.

[ComeBacKid]

TorontoGuy,

Within a few days after starting my Acetyl L Carnitine, my pain totally went away and has basically stayed away, every so often I will get a slight tremor of pain.  I don't believe there is one medical study showing that vitamin E has any efficacy, I know I"ve been on it for the past three months and it did nothing for the curve.  I was also on it for 6 months right after I got the disease and it did nothing.  Most doctors who don't know much about the disease will tell you to take something, thats what my first urologist did.  Basically they don't want to look clueless so they have to give you something to do for treatment. The pain after manipulation was common for me during the first year I had the disease, anytime I would get done with masterbation or a sexual act I had an aching pain, at that time I was told to only take vitamin E, had I known about the ALC I would of been on that in a heartbeat!  The dosage I'm on is 2,500 mg daily, divided into two doses, one in the morning and one at night, after food, if you take it on an empty stomach you will have an upset stomach.  

[Christine]

Hi guys,

We have a discussion going on in the Ladies room and one of our members would like to ask a question.  Does anyone have any suggestions for allieviating the pain that is caused by the condition in the beginning stages?   I know that it is trial and error but can you give me some of the things that you have tried specifically for the pain?  

Any suggestions could be very well appreciated!!

Blessings,  Chris

[ComeBacKid]

Christine,

Acetyl L Carnitine relieved the pain for me within days, and several others have told me it did the same for them.  I take 1250 mg twice a day, once in the morning after food, and once at night after food.  Studies show that ALC may also help reduce the curve.  This is the best advice I have to get rid of the pain, I buy mine at wal mart but you can get this at GNC or any vitamin shop.

ComeBackid

[Christine]

Thanks ComeBackid.    I probably should have posted the quote to let you know what he is trying already.   Here it is

I was wondering.... does anyone know how long the pain associated with Peyronies Disease lasts?My boyfriend has had the pain for the last 5-6 months and does not seem to be getting better. Any suggestions on ways to alleviate it? He is presently taking vitamin E, Bromeline,  Acetyl L Carnitine, Advil and Arginine.   He started the Acetyl L and Arginine almost 2 weeks ago. .....

So as you can see he is already trying that.   Any other suggestions?

[ComeBacKid]

Christine,

Is he trying epsom salt baths, or warm bath soaks in general, they probably couldn't hurt and may increase bloodflow.

ComeBackid

[Christine]

I suggested that after reading what Rico and others have had to say for it.  She is going to suggest and have him start that.  It makes sense that it could help to relieve the pain.

[Rico]

Christine,

I suggest that you have your husband start MSM, Fish oil(omega three), MSM is a sulphur, it has been used for athritis pain, and I believe that peyroines  has been described as athritis of the penis. Also IMHO when you start mixing your aminos, without putting together a proper blend for tissue healing, you can once again IMHO:), be throwing off some of the other aminos. They all need to work together. Myself I believe that the brands the weight lifters and athletes use make sense, they are for tissue repair and added circulation, much research has went into these products. It is a competitive market place and since the 80's, they have been on the market. By buying this mix, you are getting the proper balance. Also I have put together a diet plan that is for inflammation, it helps. The MSM and Fish Oil (omega three), I think will stop the pain in 10 days. Glutamine will help with the delivery also of NSAID(advil), but like I said I would buy a blend, we talked about some of the ones on a early post under supplements...remember  "This Shall To Pass"  God Bless You Both!

Rico

[Christine]

Thanks Rico.   Not my hubby I am referring to but I was asking for a gal in the Ladies Room who is trying to find some answers for her boyfriend.    Am sure she will take your words of wisdom to heart.   Poor guy is willing to try anything and I told her that you guys will have the answers better than I certainly would.

[Rico]

Your welcome, I have learn much from  the group here. I do believe the body can be missing something, MSM has been the answer for many. Remember that peyronies if on the top side, there are many nerves in this area, more if closer to the top by the glands. I had no pain with mine. Dmso is known to shut down the nerve endings, hence no pain, I have been banged up my whole life, so dealing with these types of issues isn't the same to others, and everyones pain is unique, one has to learn to adjust. Pain is away of protecting the body, in some cases it is the time when the body is healing, but when it is nerves then you need to stop the inflammation or deaden the nerve endings, I know some guys who got tattoos over injure area of there body to deaden the nerves there, it worked. Can anyone say Barber's Pole:)!

Please, if you give me more details on his condition or tell him he is welcome to send me a message...Thank you.

Rico

[Kimo]

Christine,,,kimo here,,,,I have gotten peyronies twice in 7 yrs and have suffered a lot of pain both times...What i used to take away the pain is very controversial usually no one believes me But it has worked for me both times..I used a magnet, i would wear it over the area of pain at night while sleeping and after a few nights my pain would be gone..The stronger the magnet the better it works.....It may not work for everyone but it really helped me....This is just my experience..If you need anymore help feel free to e-mail me, my address is listed...........kimo

Subject line on this post edited for easy reference.

[falcone]

hi all this is my first post. Someone in another mens health forum recommended this forum to me, I was hoping you could help me.

until recently - maybe 2 months, I was unaware of what Peyronies Disease but stumbled upon it when i clicked on a thread where someone was saying they had a curved penis and someone had suggested Peyronies Disease. was but I had always noticed i had an upwards curved penis, and not just a little, its seems to curve more drastically suddenly towards the top from a certain point. Im only 21, but ive noticed my erections arent as strong as they used to be, although i can get full erections they are not as they were in my early/mid teens (but i suppose noones really are).

i also am capable of penetration so it hasnt stopped me having sex. I can never remember a plague or any pain but recently i feel my erect penis is smaller, and even so flacid? as in its suck itself in quite considerably, im really worried and depressed bout this now. Is it possible for your flacid penis to be smaller as a result? + do you think I may have Peyronies Disease?

thanks in advance everyone,
Falcone    

[zigwyth]

Welcome falcone. It may have been me that recommended this site if you were on Healthboards. Regardless, we have a great group of guys here and several are reaching out in various ways to men that are afflicted with Peyronies Disease. Gain as much knowledge by reading the material here. Don't be afraid to ask ???s. And by all means, try and search out a reputable Urologist in your area. ComeBackid may be able to guide you. You can send private messages to other members as well by clicking under their name. Remember, we are all in this together. You are not alone. Good luck. Christina, Epsom soaks. I use Dead Sea Salt myself. VASO from GNC products has many of the ingredients most men here agree with all in one capsule. Not promoting-just what Rico found for me! I even tried a warm salve of Aloe Vera, Emu oil, Apple Cider vinegar and Crushed Motrin. It helped ease the pain. And last I have a half tube of very expensive Transdermal Verapamil he can have. My pain went away within 2-3 days after applying this, but no other help at all. Could have been a coincidence. Just in case Hawk is reading this:haha-Zig

[Rico]

Falcone,

Do what ever you have to do, get to a doctor, a urologist as soon as possible. The wondering will stress you out. I waited six weeks, too long, once I went in, I was well read on it, was in denial still, but when told I had peyronies, I had mixed feelings, first was disappointment, more in the wait and see what happens approach by a top notch urologist, but a feeling of relief, knowing where I was and now I knew what to deal with. You are young, treatment in the early stages is more receptive. You might also come across a doctor who is proactive in this. Please make a appointment today, once even the appointment is set for you, you will feel a sense of relief, you are being in my opinion the most sensible proactive you can be.... I will say a Prayer for your quick recovery...

Rico

"Subject line on this post edited for easy reference"

[Tim468]

Falcone,

When you go to the urologist (and you WILL go - right??), emphasize that it is *changing* and worsening. The flaccid length of the penis does shorten over a year of no treatment (recent data shows it goes from about 12.5 cm to 11.5 cm - the stretched tight flaccid length)(which correlates to the erect lenght).

The point is to not let him say it is a congenital curve that you wre born with, because he will add that if it is, that you should do nothing, especially since you are able to have intercourse. Now, it is possible that your penis is shrinking up because of stress from worrying! So try to relax, bathe in warm baths, stretch it out, use it - do all that. But still get an evaluation - you might benefit from some of the treatments we already do.

Tim

"Subject line on this post edited for easy reference"

[falcone]

thanks guys, Ill make a appointment with my GP tommorrow and ask him to refer me to one. its weird, cause i cant really remember if its gotten worse or not it terms of curving as because you see your penis every day you probably just take changes as the new norm and dont notice. All i know is it feels like my penis has been sucked in when flacid, I remember this happening to me about the same time last year, when i came back from my holiday - which is when ive noticed it this time, and I think it got better im not sure.

It's really getting me down, especially at the prospect of it being pernamently smaller, could do without it at my age. heres hoping its just stress or something but i dont know how that could affect the erect state.

Oh and one more thing, Ive used viagra maybe 10 times in the last year, just basically out of curiosity and improved sexual performance but gave me headaches etc so i dont use it anymore but last time i used it during sex was probably about a month ago -what affect does this have on peyronnie's - i heard its bad- and could this maybe have done damage and be responsible for the shrinking?

and thanks for the help and support i really appreciate it
falcone  

"Subject line on this post edited for easy reference"

[Liam]

Viagra has not hurt me.  Use the search on the forum and you will find research showing Viagra, Pentoxifylline and l-arginine are getting some favorable results in the lab.  Hear are three to get you started.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14996430&dopt=Citation

http://repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3908&context=postprints

http://peyroniesassoc.org/EffestsofPentoxifylline.htm

I'm sure you know to research everything yourself.  Don't just do something because it is on the forum.   You will get some great ideas.  But, you will run out of hours in the day if you tried everything suggested  .

[Mr BLBC]

OK.....
So I'm relatively new at the Peyronies thing and I have a question.......

I'm taking the supplements that have been recommended for pain.....

But which pain.....?

Daily sensitivety pain, for no reason throbbing pain, brush up against the kitchen counter pain......

Or erection pain.......

Mr.BLBC

[Rico]

I sent you a personal email Mr. BLBC on the pain issue. This pain is cause by the pinching of a nerve. The plaque becomes inflammed or matted. Once the inflammation phase is over, then the pain subsides. I believe it is very important to stop inflammation as soon as possible. Arginine and other supplements and epsom salt baths and a proper diet will help with this. Reducing ones alcohol content and rest and stress control is another way of helping with this pain. Of course location of plaque, near the tip for example is more prone to pain due to more nerves in this area.....I never had pain, I think this was due to the location being more towards the bottom on the septum, and I didn't get a pinch nerve.....Plenty of water, fruits and veggies with low fat protein will also help along with msm and omega three, and the amino acids....alc, arginine, vit e....

These supplements are meant for all the pain you asked about Mr. BLBC, these play hand in hand....pressure on the nerve can be cause by bumping or the pressure from a erection ect.....I had scar tissue in my back neck to a nerve, if I wasn't rested, not eating right, out drinking ect...it would flare up, when I took care of it, it subsided and became stable....sometimes you have to stop and take some time out for self care and think long term, if there is pain, then you should rest it till it subsides...

God Bless,

Rico

[Tim468]

Pain may also be due to inflammatory changes in the tissue. Therefore, not only taking supplements, but probably NSAIDs like advil may be a very important part of healing. Ibuprofen not only makes it hurt less, but it may stop the biochemical process that causes some of the inflammatory changes.

I know of no data that prove that Advil helps reduce the advancement of Peyronies Disease in the early "active stages", but I know that my body feels better and the feelings I associate with advancing and active Peyronies Disease are gone after taking it for a week or so.

Tim

[Hawk]

This may be splitting hairs but I am not sure we can say that Peyronies Disease pain is caused by pinching of a nerve.  In the absence of exact scientific information on the cause of pain, I think we could safely say something like, "Pain is caused by inflammation surrounding the the nerves or actual inflammation of the nerves themselves".  Maybe Tim or others have the background to know if pain can be caused by sources other than "pinching a nerve".  I assume that nerve receptors can be stimulated to signal pain through other mechanisms and that maybe they can just be hyper-sensitive.   I have also never heard any authoritative source conclude exactly what causes Peyronies Disease pain.  

I have had only very slight pain even though at different times, I have curved down, then to the right, back straight, then up.  I also have an indentation near the underside at the base.  Individually, these curves have all been fairly minor but I think they must indicate scaring in multiple areas of the penis.  Collectively, they have caused some reduction in length and girth.  The only palpable plaque was near the indentation.  That plague has diminished (very common) to next to nothing leaving the indentation.  

[falcone]

hi ive made a appointment with my GP and im gonna ask him to refer me to a urologist to see if I infact have Peyronies Disease.

everyone talks about plaques, ive never had one so whats the deal with my curve and shortening?

p.s
this might be crazy but ,i fell my curve has changed a little for the better, really quickly at the cost of some length and girth this possible? - i didnt mind the curve i would hav rather it been bigger  

[Hawk]

Falcone,

Many men never have "plaque" or scar tissue you can feel.  Many on this site would indicate this fits their experience.


There are two things in the natural progression on Peyronies Disease that can cause a curve or bend to become less prominent.    

1.That is a reduction in the scar tissue associated with a restoration of more normal tissue on the short side (or the inside) of the bend.  The first is totally good but unfortunately it is not common.

2. The addition of scar tissue on the long side (or outside) of the bend to draw it up equal to the other side.  This second cause is a mixed blessing because it reduces bend in a way similar to a Nesbit Tuck which is when they use a certain medical procedure to surgically stitch the long side shorter.   It straighted the penis by making the long side equal to the short side.  When this naturally occurs, it is an indication that the Peyronies Disease is still in an active stage of scaring and inflammation.

The above are natural causes of curve changes and do not cover surgical procedures, VED, traction devices etc.

[Rico]

Hawk,

That is a good point, it might not be the right term, pinching, pressing might apply. When inflammation is present it causes swelling, hence the effect on the nerves in the area....

Falcone you can have peyroines with not plaque, I never thought I had plaque either, two months later, the doctor said a area of my septum was scared, 1.6cm, I can tell now, and my curve didn't show up for two months either, but I had and still do a hour glass at the site....

Even though the plaque can resolve, or better word I think is subside or shrink, the underlying tissue is different, it has been replace with scar tissue, and this tissue doesn't have the elastic properties of the  tunica prior to peyronies. That is why the theory behind the VED is to stretch this area to make it more expandable and regain lost length and width....

Tim is right on NASID, it works for pain and inflammation and goes to the source, and is a good way to stop it at the time. If the body has inflammation going on, you do to fix it....if you have say gum disease, inflammation in your gums, this can trigger inflammation in your hold body, that is why one needs to fight inflammation on a whole body approach in my opinion....it might sound crazy, but going to the dentist could help with your peyronies in a mild way, helping stop the pain associated with the peyronies, of course it isn't going to get your length, curve reduce ect.....but this approach to total over all health cannot be over looked either IMHO.....

Best regards,

Rico

[Tim468]

I second Rico's suggestion to go to the dentist. It is clear that periodontal disease can accelerate cardiovascular disease (which may share some commonalitites with Peyronies Disease in terms of mechanisms). A holistic approach is very important.

Pain is an exceedingly complex issue. It is far more than simply pressing or pinching on nerves, although certainly that can cause pain. The direct stimulation of nerve fibers by actively inflammed adjacent cells may be a form of "cross-talk" that does not have anything to do with mechanical deformation of the nerve (such as what would happen with nerve impingement or compression).

I am glad that I have the pain. It tells me when the Peyronies Disease is active, and when it is quiet. And it is not intolerable for me, and it is treatable.

Tim

[Rico]

Tim,

I agree with you that the best way to say it is - direct stimulation of nerve fibers - this covers all the bases. "CROSS TALK"  also is so true, I know when pain travels, it is a good sign to me, as you said it is a signal for you to understand what is going on, your body is talking to you...in a sense protecting you also from futher damage....there is a fine line of working through pain also, breaking up scar tissue ect...one has to be careful not to further damage the area.....

I keep coming back to ved, but I believe why it got such a bad rap with the FDA is that people with peyroines and ED were using it, pumping too much and putting on the rubber ring on there unit to hold the erection for a long period, this cause too much pressure early and cause more damage.

Most athletes can't wait to get back into the game, they rehabilitate to quick, causing more damage to the injury sight....myself included.....slow and steady, listen to your body, provide it with the supplements and rest it needs....I have read the VED protocol for 26 weeks, it says for the first three weeks to use the small cylinder for 5-10 seconds and repeat 10 times, for me when I get mine that I have order, it will be on the 5 seconds to I can gauge the feeling for awhile, I think less is better in this case, but the memory aspect(consistency is more important), till your plaque and surrounding tissue gets use to it...I also believe it makes sense to me to warm up first also, not just run home and being cold to start pumping ect...and some sort of cool down period....

I'm going to park for lunch now....circulation:)...

Rico

[Tyler]

Hello everyone,

I am sorry i havnt been on for a bit, i have been very depressed lately and feeling hopeless, im sure youve all been their. Anyways i found that i dont think about my problem when i fish so i have been fishing everyday, sometimes even all night . Anyways, i feel very blessed lately. My parents have scrounged up the money to take me to the two top urologists that deal with peyronies. One, was at Stanford University whos name i am forgetting at the moment but he prescribed me Vit E twice daily 400IU and Potaba 8 tabs three times a day. I followed this treatment for 2 weeks, i have also been using topical verapamil for about two months and i am around my 6th month of the disease. Today i went to the second top urologists as my mom wasnt happy with potaba after she looked into it. His name is doctor Lue (spellcheck) at UCSF. He gave me an ultrasound which i have been wanting and said i had no calcification (thank you lord) he gave me a prescription for Trental 1 tab three times a day and told me to stop everything else but VIT E. Before taking the trental i wanted to see if any of you were familiar with it. And i think i will continue you the TV just incase. Thank you all for your help, and i would love your input. God Bless

-Tyler

[Liam]

Trental is the brand name of pentoxifylline (pentox) that has been the buzz here for several months.  Use the search for this site (top right corner of page).  Search "pentox" and do another search for "pentoxifylline".  You should find plenty of research on it.

Good luck!

Liam

[Tim468]

Tyler:

First of all, welcome again. Self-care is an amazing thing to do - it will help you in ways that you never imagined. And, you are blessed indeed to have caring parents with whom you could share this process, and who could give you help.

Lue is good. Stick with him. Keep your fingers crossed about the Trental; stay on the vitamin E, and if things do not change at all, or get worse, ask him if you should also be on Viagra and arginine. The published reports of improvement (only a total of four reported cases so far!!!) suggest that all three are part of the plan, although the papers say that it is unclear if any one of the three drugs, taken alone, might do the job.

Tim

[Rico]

Forum members,

I find it interesting and also what goes along my way of thinking, Dr. Lue told Tyler to stop everything except the Pentox. I think we all can go over board with supplements, never know what is working or not....if someone is taking tradzone, why would they take maca also. ALC enhances mood brain function, why take goto kola(redundant).....a over load of one amino can block another, I really do believe in a blend that compliments each other with research behind it....water soulable vitamins aren't a issue, you will get them out of your system, maybe peeing out some money that is all....this shot gun approach in my opinion can do more harm than good.....one should sit down and look at each supplement, what is the reason for taking, arginine is great for blood flow and wound repair along with glutamine and ornithine, if you are going to do hard drugs, trazdone, pentox, potaba ect.....be careful, if the doctor recommends, pentox, arginine, and trazdone for you, then that is all you should take...once again vitamins and mineral supplement don't count if you are taking one that is also in a blend.....when I saw the doctor put together a plan like the pentox, arginine and tradzone, I thought he was on the right track....when I read someone is doing trazdone, pentox, gota, alc in huge amounts, arginine,  maca, horney goat weed, enzymes, msm.....I have to wonder what his liver and kidneys are thinking....

I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but if you write down the amino acids you want in your plan and take it to a health store, you will find it, in powder form that you can drink with juice or pill if that is what you want....put together in a lab that body builders and athletes are using for circulation and tissue repair....one multi/mineral vitamin/   now address you own medical needs also, ED, stress ect....I believe the arginine and alc are the two best choices out there right now, what is put in the blend will enhance them.....now for example you would say, do I want horny goat week/maca or nox3, trazdone or will more exercise give me the same results, natural is better, I'm not saying one is better than the other, just not so many.....try a different fruit or vegetable, this could be the mineral your body is missing also for better health, If you look at the great athletes they attack it from nutrition 33% good diet and supplements for tissue recovery, 33% physical training....in are case VED three cylinder 26 - 52 week protocol....33% mental preparation....for us this is to cope with the condition, maybe this is where the tradzone, mediation, baths, walks, the forum, love ones ect......
Being loped sided, just throwing the pills left and right down, won't cure you, it might even make it worse...most people would probally do better also by adding more water to there diet than another pill also....Personally I'm not excited at all about Pentox from what I have read.....I wake up with erections so I have choose not to take trazdone, although I do have stress, but I going with walking and meditation instead......the remolding of the scar tissue with the three cylinder I put my most hope into along with the amino supplements and DIET, along with self care from every aspect of ones life, go to the dentist if you haven't in the last six months, stop the inflammation, pears and apples stop inflammation also, eating one apple is the same as brushing your teeth 500 strokes, yes it cleans them, just eat one and rub your finger on your teeth afterwards....rinse you gums with peroxide also, for about thirty seconds, this will kill the bacteria that is causing inflammation in your gums....which can travel thoughtout your body.....the next time you see a bottle of some oil that you are going to pay 20 dollars for, buy a bag of fresh fruit instead....

Rico

[Tim468]

I think that one has to be judicious in how and when you add, and has to decide whether or not to substitute one thing for another.

For instance, I might take horny goat weed for it's phosphodiesterase inhibiting characteristics, if I was not taking viagra. If I was taking viagra, then the horny goat weed would be superfluous.

But one thing to remember is that all of these things do not work through the same mechanisms. The key is to go slowly, build layers of care AS NEEDED, and to consider stopping something that does not work (but to give it time).

ALC/PLC work one way; treazadone another (it is a very unproven thing for Peyronies Disease - folks are taking it for ED or "better erections" at night), trental is yet another kind of drug, as is verapamil. If the "best" thing is not working, then change it!

I have focused on specific amino acids, since there are published data supporting their use for Peyronies Disease. Other AA's may interfere or even diminish the effects I am working for, so I do not do a broad spectrum of those.

Natural is fine, but not always "better". The whole idea of pushing a biochemical process may require loading up on precursors to the action you want to force ahead (called "mass action" in biochemistry). You may not be able to do that with "normal" levels, especially if you do not do a specific sort of healing well in the first place.

Tim

[howcanthisbe]

recently I noticed some pain in the penis area off and on for almost 2 days. Now it has been gone for 4 days the pain, but can Peyronies Disease flareups be so short lived? I think my curve has gotton slightly worse and the dent has gotton slightly bigger. Its a horrible feeling to think this can get worse so fast any day. Is this normal progression?

[Rico]

Abe said, "The needs of the many are more than the few", I think Spock said this on Star Trek also:)!

Tim it is obvious you have a background in medicine and that is why I feel you are a huge asset to this forum, you keep some of us loose cannons at bay...

I have to stick by my guns on the amino acid mix for body builders, they do work in in conjunction which each other and promote tissue healing and circulation....I have check the amounts also of the arginine ect...and they are in accordance with what is suggested to take for are condition.....

If it isn't broken don't fix it.......there isn't any reason that I see to not follow the three cylinder 26 week protocol....

On the amino acids blends, once again much research has been put into these, they do work together, tissue repair is tissue repair....circulation is circulation......

The old saying of Abe means to me in this case is that many of us are busy, and have limited knowledge of the medical world and chemist labs, but we do know that we should take arginine, so why not make it easy on ourselves and go with a blend that a lab has researched, read the label, it even has instructions on when to take ect....and it works.....read the research xyenice has put into their products...marketing you might say, well it sells off the self, why, because it works, the nox in it will give you oxygen blood flow like you never felt before, I know, I use it.....but I do exercise also with it....

This is also a natural approach to peyronies, amino acids are the building blocks to your body, it is not a hard drug....or some harsh chemical......

When I say natural is always better, it is if that choice is apples to apples, ie....if you take tradzone and sleep better and get more erections, if by walking several miles and doing some from of exercise and a better diet gives you the same results, this I believe for the long haul the natural way is better.

I must say that someone is going to Dr. Lue and he is saying pentox, makes me wonder if these guys are chasing there tails, the medical community never wants to go with a mechanical approach, they are at arms with chiropractors, it embarrasses them that they have Dr. on there business card....but I believe they have to come to the conclusion soon that there pharmaceutical drug influence ways might not be the program for us, it is usually backed into, how do we make money off of this? do I want to put my name on a traction devise? what are the liabilities? how do we fit it on a rat's dick to see if it works? AA4500 I have no reason to believe in this product....this is going to bring back the elasticity of your tunica...PLEASE!...talk about pissing on your back and telling you it is raining!!

They have to face the fact the VED is going to be are best approach and get behind it with what ever can enhance it.....if they must, go pump up some rat dicks for the FDA.....

Rico

[Tim468]

HCTB:

Peyronies Disease can progress very rapidly, and it is VERY depressing. It has happened to me, and it is so frustrating to say the least.

Keep pushing ahead, and at least tell yourself that you are doing what you can.

Tim

[Rico]

HCTB,

Are you taking arginine? Also the plaque will spread over the injury, a 1.5cm will spread to 3cm...the flare up probally has to do with inflammation and the nerves surrounding the edges of scar, you might notice some swelling and this will seem like the scar is bigger also and will be make your curve more prominent also.....think about any changes in your diet, or lifestyle, ect...right before the new inflammation started....I know some people will smile at this, but take a couple of long hot epsom salt baths to reduce the swelling....if you can get some long sleep periods in also, rest is so important during this time, and I believe it is critical to stop the inflammation now.....do you have a high fat diet? are you exercising, stress, ect....what trigger this?....are you taking fish oil(omega three)? nasid and msm during flare up? and sometimes a good flush will help, I mix 8oz of organic maple syrup with six lemons in a gallon of distilled water, this spike all your mineral needs....

Rico

[ComeBacKid]

What is the theory behind Pentox for it to work?  I know it will thin your blood people have said in the past.  Has anyone on this forum used the drug and saw a resolution in their bend, or gain back any size, how many people are currently trying the drug right now?  

[Fighter]

Rico or Tim,
I am into weight lifting and I take arginine and ALC. You talk about the right blend is there any other Amino's that I should consider? I am on a high protein diet and I got to say I feel good and my Peyronies Disease has been in check for the most part.

Thanks

[Rico]

If you are into weight training and your peyronies is stable, maybe you are taking the right amounts of argininge and alc....your age and diet are another factor....red meats and nuts and raisins are full of amino, and especially arginine....talk to some of you friends at the gym or a trainer and find out what they are taking, If you want to tell me more about you diet, age...ect...I will tell you what I would take if I was you....I don't take protein supplement, like a soy or egg base, mine is more for muscle gain and oxygen pump and tissue recovery, but most of the good ones are along these lines, some choose to use one or two different amino acids to compliment the other, but once again, you can get redundant and these blends are going after the same results....mine doesn't have alc in it, so I add that for instance, but I think I will go with maybe the vasco that zig is taking next time, What so you think of it Zig The Twig?

Rico

[Rico]

ComeBackid,

The theary is the same as potaba and all the other anti fibro they give you. The studies I read, there was slight improvment on this one guy, 10 degrees after six months, and another 5 degrees after two years, with no gain in lost length, OH Yeah! Put me on that for three or four years.....

Now I don't want to discourage anyone, and if you are young ect......maybe it will work for you....

My urologist told me that if he was me he would do topical verapamil and potaba, I asked him if it worked, he couldn't even look me in the eye, he looked at his feet and said "Some guys have said it made there plaque softer", WHOOOOOPPPPPEEEEEEE!!!!!  I reach out and shook the pecker checkers hand said no thanks doc, and haven't been back!!

Has anyone seen the movie Clueless!  Thank God For the VED!!  I wouldn't be surprise if Levine and Lue and all the rest will be shooting the bee venom in next....wait I heard that might work:)!!!!!!!!

Has anyone tried shaking dried chicken bones over there unit......

[falcone]

does masturbation/sex have any effect on peyronnies i.e worsening it etc?

[Tim468]

I think the theory of pentox is exciting.  Pentoxifylline modifies and affects the production and release of TGF-Beta, a proinflammatory cytokine (cytokines are molecules that modulate or cause inflammation). It also prevents the release of Tumor Encrosis Factor (TNF) which also promotes inflammatory events.

TGF-BEta is postulated to cause some of the inflammatory cascade of Peyronies Disease by stimulating collagen gene expression, which is turned off by the use of Pentox. One problem is that using it after the fact is sort of closing the barn door after the cows get out, but insofar as inflammation is an ongoing process, it can help turn off and reduce the ongoing (increased) production of collagen. That, in turn, might allow the natural "turnover" process to allow for degradation of existing collagen. I think that a combination therapy of turning off production (Pentox) coupled with a degradation promoting drug like Verapamil may prove most helpful.

Pentoix has a lot of exciting potential IMHO. And I would gladly take it for two to three years to get better. After all, I have been gradually getting worse for 30 years.

[Tyler]

Does anyone know if Taking Potaba, And Pentox would be a bad idea together? The pharmicist says they dont interact.

[Rico]

Tim,

I agree with you, the barn doors have been closed, the scar is already there...inflammation does need to be shut down and as we suspect, this can be different in each person and there over all health...it is the culprit in most diseases, I put most of my early effort in stopping this inflammation and feel it is stable after four months, the first two I did nothing but the shot gun approach and the freaking out phase:), which the stress will only make it worse....inflammation will not go away if you are not rested and stressed out, the first time you see your bent dick, it puts you in shock, we have all been there....

I have read articles on pentox from years ago, one study was back in 2000, this has been around awhile. The other drugs also, anti fibrin types, I feel the same way as you do, the barn doors are shut, the cows can't get back in....yes one has to stop the inflammation...but is this the best choice....maybe a couple of epsom baths will do this...diet, taking a hard look at your lifestyle, what makes you feel good, bad, what foods work for you ect....

I feel that the reason we all response sometimes different is that the scar itself is different, some might be short, some long, some deep, if you have a small deep scar, no hour glass, when it goes away or subsides, the bend and lost of length might not be as bad, or they say it healed itself(did it)?, or was it the severity of the scar, mine is bilateral, and I might be swallow but covering a longer bilateral area, this causes hour glass and even if the scar improves, the elasticity of the tissue doesn't change....small tear, large tear.....the "A" typical peyronies like they show in there pictures is not what everyone has also, that is why I read each post and try to read between the lines, does his symptoms sound like mine, or is he in a different boat.....if you have a bent dick...it is peyronies, take two vit e and call me in the morning...we know it is more complicated than that, and there might be several different types of this condition....just think of all the conditions you know of...candycane, hook, bent to the left, bent to the right, hour glass, multiple bends and twist, pain, no pain, lost of length, lost of girth, dents, buckling at base......Maybe Dr. Lue looks at a young person, new to peyronies and says pentox....I don't know his rhyme or reason, they are not going to sit down and talk about your life style, diet, ect...you fill out the first visit forum, they get some history...I had peyroines for two months when I meet my doctor, potaba, the fibrin was there already....Well I'm going to jump in a hot epsom salt bath now, not for dick either, my legs are sore from running and doing some leg work....

Best regards and God Bless...

Rico

[ComeBacKid]

Tyler,

Your doctor should be able to answer that question, what did he or she tell you?  I have not heard from one single person say that pentox or potaba worked for them.  I've read tons of studies, come to think of it even that topical verapamil, Iontophoresis, and ALC all work on reducing the curve, I tried all three and guess what... they didn't work on me.  I don't want to discourage you from trying these drugs, go for it, but be cautious of all these so called "medical studies."  Come to think of it, those traction devices according to the webiste calculator are saying that Want IT and SteveW should have gained at least an inch by now.  

By the way, did those two guys who saw results from topical verapamil join our forum?  

ComeBackid