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Welcome to J Francois Eid, MD - Directly answering member questions in the "Medical Professionals" section below the Treatment boards.
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Author Topic: PEMF (Pulsed Electro Magnetic Field Therapy)  (Read 7571 times)

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Obsie

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PEMF (Pulsed Electro Magnetic Field Therapy)
« on: May 23, 2013, 03:31:09 AM »

Hi guys

Since I started my Peyronies Disease journey, I found out that the matter is not well understood, and that there are very little studies done. You know that already. So I was thinking about alternative therapies, but not the voodoo style : only those who are based on proved clinical trials. Although I trust the placebo effect to be present with every medication, I would only willingly use something with proven results. But urologists and researchers do not know about every possibility. I have been working with PEMF in Russia in the past, and yesterday I suddenly thought "what if it worked with Peyronies Disease"? So I googled it and found pretty much nothing.

I wondered if anyone has tried this? PEMF is a well known technique which induces small electrical changes at cellular level, promoting cell mitosis and improving oxygen levels, to sum up briefly. It is used to help healing of damaged structures, mostly bones, joints and tendons, for instance in osteoporosis and arthrosis. It is also used as a pain reliever and by veterinaries in the US. There are no known side effects and the technique has been used for ages. It is not a "cure all" system, but for different reasons I have the idea that it could be helpful in Peyronies Disease.

I would start by trying one of these cheap patches Menstrual Cramps Relief, Get Rid of Period Cramps Drug Free| Allay which are used against menstrual pain. There are also other patches available at ActiPatch | Heal Your Pain

There are also portable machines for home use. They are quite expensive though. Check this site Buyers Guide - PEMF Therapy Information- PEMF Devices & Machine Reviews for more information about this technique. The author is a lot into biorythm and stuff like that which I do not personally find scientifically relevant, but if you skip that the rest is pretty much up to date. However he promotes mostly whole body mats, but there is little scientific evidence that these have any effect.( by "scientific"I am referring to double blind trials). There are, on the other hand, conclusive studies for portable devices, for instance for the treatment of venous leg ulcer: "Investigator's global evaluations indicated that 50% of the ulcers in the active group healed or markedly improved vs. 0% in the placebo group, and 0% of the active group worsened vs. 54% of the placebo group (P<0.001). Significant decreases in wound depth (P<0.04) and pain intensity (P<0.04) favouring the active group were seen"

This study is relevant to our case because venous leg ulcers and Peyronies Disease have some elements in common, and those figures are impressive : 50% healing vs 0% in the placebo group is very significant. Although it s strange that no placebo effect was found.

So, it would be really interesting to see if someone has tried this on their penis, or if some of our distinguished British members are willing to try. (Although the product may be also sold in the US?)

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james1947

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Re: PEMF (Pulsed Electro Magnetic Field Therapy)
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2013, 04:43:49 AM »

Obsie

Can you elaborate on:
Quote
but for different reasons I have the idea that it could be helpful in Peyronies Disease.
&
Quote
venous leg ulcers and Peyronies Disease have some elements in common

James
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Age 71, Peyronies from Jan 2009 following penis fracture during sex. Severe Erectile Dysfunction.
Lost 2" length and a lot of girth. Late start, still VED, Cialis & Pentox helped. Prostate surgery 2014.
Got amazing support on the forum

drshashikant

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Re: PEMF (Pulsed Electro Magnetic Field Therapy)
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2013, 02:14:08 AM »

hey friends,

recently i have been recommending this PEMF device for all my patients.
Specially because out of 10,000 devices sold less than 4% have been returned for refund to the company, also i found that it is not possible to have placebo effects if a device is tested and improves performance of animals. this device, earthpulse, his owner's dog lived quite long and slept on his machine for many years, he was playful till his last few days!

here is the link -
Link deleted by moderator

all the best!
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Obsie

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Re: PEMF (Pulsed Electro Magnetic Field Therapy)
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2013, 01:31:00 PM »

James,
I am just back from a trip to Russia, landed a few hours ago so I have little time, but here's my idea: basically it is about fiboblasts. Since Peyronies Disease is most likely the result of a microvascular trauma in men with genetic factors involved, the result is a local thrombosis which brings in a protein called fibronectin that allows fibrin to be stored at the trauma site, making a pattern for fibroblasts (the cells responsible for collagen production during the wound healing process)  to follow, which creates a net of fibers that lead to plaque. Of course this is oversimplification but you get the idea. In veinous ulcer a somehow similar process is happening, and since this therapy is successuflly used in that case, I thought why not. I talked with a professor in Moscow last week, he is not aware of any trial regarding Peyronies Disease and PEMF but he thinks it could be interesting. He is not a specialist in that field though. He introduced me to a specialist in the field,so I will follow up on this. If anyone is interested let me know.
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greybeard

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Re: PEMF (Pulsed Electro Magnetic Field Therapy)
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2013, 06:20:19 PM »

A little concerned when I googled this topic, especially as nearly all the threads I could find were from commercial sites.
However, I found this link -
Pulsed electromagnetic field therapy (PEMF therapy)
from a Physics forum, and found it quite illuminating.
It does need careful reading, but the point I found most useful was the basic idea, commonly overlooked, that an anecdote, however dramatic for the person involved, does not add up to scientific evidence proof.
I'd guess that most of the contributors here will stick to their own path, because they've found what works for them, but each individual case doesn't prove anything in general.

But then my scientific training took a lurch when a chiropractor stuck acupuncture needles into my frozen shoulder to good effect, so I suppose my position is one of wide-eyed wariness as regards PEMF - too much like copper bracelets and magnetic water softening for my taste.

John

EDIT Sloppy writing/thinking due to old age and late night !
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Obsie

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Re: PEMF (Pulsed Electro Magnetic Field Therapy)
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2013, 03:32:19 AM »

Thanks for the link.
There is a lot of scientific evidence regarding PEMF, it was used for years (and still is) in Russia, in very specific cases in physiotherapy. It is not a cure all thing. I saw that new-age kind of guys are attracted to it, as well as companies without ethics. I disregard this as only background noise. The people who first talked to me about this, years ago, were scientific professors in the medical field in Russia and they are people whose opinion matters. They described it as routine physiotherapy stuff for bone fractures. It is still used widely in many clinics or hospitals across the country. It is not pseudoscience, but it must not be confused with magnetotherapy (wearing magnets) which is quackery.

Some people used it for Dupuytrens disease, and noted postive results in the acute phase.

One meta study reports poor results with PEMF Therapeutic effects of whole-body devices applying pulsed electromagnetic fields (PEMF): A systematic literature review - Hug - 2011 - Bioelectromagnetics - Wiley Online Library
But it concerns full body mats which make very little scientific sense. So not all PEMF is equal.


The studies which report good results are those which focus on a specific area for instance spine discs or knee joint. In most cases, best result is obtained in addition to another therapy such as traction on Hip Flexor Contracture in Post Polio Syndrome.

Since it is non invasive and without risks, I consider it would be interesting to try. After all some people are using topical creams, which we know won't work.
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greybeard

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Re: PEMF (Pulsed Electro Magnetic Field Therapy)
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2013, 04:00:10 AM »

Hi Obsie. I think we're coming from the same direction, but you know more than me.

As I also have Dupuytrens, I'm keen to look at other approaches, so I should like to know more details of the circuitry employed in the 'portable' versions. Looks like a diy approach would not be out of the frame. Do you have any appropriate links ?
As I'm also keen on trying a heat treatment for both Duy. and the Peyronies Disease problem, I'm looking at assembling a I.R. heat pad from leds, but so many projects.........!

Regards
John
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Obsie

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Re: PEMF (Pulsed Electro Magnetic Field Therapy)
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2013, 12:34:23 PM »

John,
I am more versed in biochemistry than electronic circuitry to be honest, although intuitively it does not seem such a difficult thing to do for someone who has soldering skills and some electronics physics understanding I guess. It seems to me that pemft.c om presents the basic facts you need to know in order to assess wether you can DIY or not.
I googled "pemf diy" and found plans and stuff but I have no idea if it is any good so you will be on your own :)
I dont have the reference to the dupuytens study, in my recollection it was a russian study. Will try to find it.
Here is an interesting video from an american MD about the benefits
PEMF - Lecture by Dr. Terry Williams, DC - YouTube

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Old Man

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Re: PEMF (Pulsed Electro Magnetic Field Therapy)
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2013, 05:00:05 PM »

Obsie and Greybeard:

Just to let you guys know, I am 83 YO and I have been building my own PCs (computers) for many years now. here are three on line in my home at the moment running very high quality programs and operating systems.

 I am sure there are sites where you can find the instructions on how build most any electronic device.

Old Man

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Age 92. Peyronies Disease at age 24, Peyronies Disease after
stage four radical prostatectomy in 1995, Heart surgery 2004 with three bypasses/three stents.
Three more stents in 2016. Hiatal hernia surgery 2017 with 1/3 stomach reduction. Many other surgeries too.

greybeard

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Re: PEMF (Pulsed Electro Magnetic Field Therapy)
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2013, 04:57:23 AM »

Hi Old Man. I think I'll pass on this one.
The percentage of gobbledegook far outweighs any reasoned science I can find in a couple of days reading, so I'll concentrate just on getting my infra red pad operational.
At least the theory of relaxing muscles by warming them up is plausible.
 ::)

Regards
John
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Old Man

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Re: PEMF (Pulsed Electro Magnetic Field Therapy)
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2013, 12:39:57 PM »

John:

I seem to remember that the IR therapy has been discussed before on the forum. Believe there is a post somewhere back in the archives where some member had or tried to build one. He gave some information about how he was going to do it.

Just a thought.

Old Man
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Age 92. Peyronies Disease at age 24, Peyronies Disease after
stage four radical prostatectomy in 1995, Heart surgery 2004 with three bypasses/three stents.
Three more stents in 2016. Hiatal hernia surgery 2017 with 1/3 stomach reduction. Many other surgeries too.

greybeard

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Re: PEMF (Pulsed Electro Magnetic Field Therapy)
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2013, 05:51:43 PM »

Old Man
Yes, it was that posting that prompted me to pursue it as a benign approach, especially as I have Dupuytren's, and a bent finger to test it on first  :D

When I get to starting some tests, I'll start a thread with details of the device.

John
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Old Man

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Re: PEMF (Pulsed Electro Magnetic Field Therapy)
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2013, 08:46:40 AM »

John:

I too have DC in both hands as well as Ledderhose in both feet. My mother had these same conditions as I remember. She passed away in 1963 well before any knowledge of these conditions existed. Her doctor told her it was what they called then: ''drawing arthritis''. Now, we know better.

DC surgery on my left hand left me in good shape for a while, but the symptoms are now coming back. It is becoming more and more difficult to cope with the bending in of the ring and pinkie fingers. Before surgery, all of the fingers curled in at about a 45 degree angle which led to many accidents in handling items. Hopefully, there will be some remedy for these maladies soon according my my hand surgeon.
However, he is not a proponent of Xiaflex ever helping DC or Peyronies Disease.

Old Man
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Age 92. Peyronies Disease at age 24, Peyronies Disease after
stage four radical prostatectomy in 1995, Heart surgery 2004 with three bypasses/three stents.
Three more stents in 2016. Hiatal hernia surgery 2017 with 1/3 stomach reduction. Many other surgeries too.

Fpinsoles

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westerntown

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Re: PEMF (Pulsed Electro Magnetic Field Therapy)
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2022, 09:04:13 PM »

I see a chirporactor once weekly to work on spinal correction, and pelvic floor. Everyday after our sessions i use the pemf for 3000hz. I feel it in my hips and sacrum when using. That being said, I dont know if its helping, however, i recently have been feeling better for a multitude of factors (got some relief in my lower back doing back stretches and core work) and if the pemf helped that would be awseome, however Id imagine it didnt. Its important to note, I never used the pemf on my penis. And i dont think you should- the chiro would have likely mentioned if that was a possible avenue to explore. Just my 2 cents, take care now
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20, late 2020 masturbation injury leads to semi erect hourglass, then try manual stretching leads to pudendal neuralgia like symptoms, corpus spongiosum and glans do not fill, severe Erectile Dysfunction- floppy unstable erections that feel like water balloon .
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