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Welcome to Dr. Landon Trost - Directly answering member questions in the "Medical Professionals" section below the Treatment boards. https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,16512.0.html

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Author Topic: Laser Wave therapy  (Read 11593 times)

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lgrace

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Laser Wave therapy
« on: January 20, 2013, 04:50:33 PM »

Hi everyone,

The other day I cam upon this site. This guy claims to have had results with some mysterious laser:

My Healing Journey - Peyronie’s Disease:  (LINK DISABLED BY ADMINISTRATOR)


What do you think? Another scam?

I'm so pissed off nothing works against this disease that nothing seems too eccentric :)

Cheers 
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TooYoungForThis

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Re: Laser Wave therapy
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2013, 05:10:03 PM »

Cant read on my phone. If he advertises a specific brand or product it is suspicious. If it has tue same cheap coding as every other offer spam e mail has for its site then thats a big indication. Anyways, you could always look into hot water soakings. as least that ia know to aignificantly reduce plaque size.
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George999

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Re: Laser Wave therapy
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2013, 05:56:00 PM »

There are laser systems designed to promote tissue healing, so it wouldn't surprise me if something like this worked.  The huge problem is that machines that have to potential to be effective are also extremely costly.  Another potentially effective treatment is DEEP TISSUE IR.  Once again, the problem is getting access to the equipment.  - George
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MattFoley

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Re: Laser Wave therapy
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2013, 08:30:00 PM »

That website looks interesting but at $5,100, I can't afford it.

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Hawk

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Re: Laser Wave therapy
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2013, 09:36:11 AM »

The site has every look of a scam.  A one page blog of a "cure" linking that links to the site that sells the "cure".

It makes ridiculous statements like
Quote
Lots of other people suffering muscle-related ailments have been healed using lasers. Peyronie’s Disease should not be any different considering that it is merely a traumatic muscle injury.

Clearly this guy has no understanding of Peyronies Disease or he hope we have no understanding.

I am also troubled that 2 out of 2 doctors diagnosed Peyronies Disease one month after a penile fracture or penile injury.  How did they know it was progressive Peyronies Disease and not just a normal healthy wound healing response at that point?  Maybe incompetent doctors or maybe a guy that knows little about Peyronies Disease fabricating a doctor's office visit.

I am further puzzled by a member that registered 2 1/2 years ago and put a scam link in his only post.  In fact it appears he has never spent any time on any other board than the "Alternative Treatments" board.  More members should have reported this to moderators.  We depend on your vigilance.
 
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George999

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Re: Laser Wave therapy
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2013, 11:47:07 AM »

Hawk,  Laser treatment is used for healing tissue in general, not only for treating muscles (something you most likely already know).  But, as you so correctly point out, the fact that this guy made the statement he did insinuating that Peyonie's afflicts "muscle tissue" is a HUGE RED FLAG.  He is indeed either a scammer or totally incompetent  and either way not someone you would want to deal with.  These laser systems are usually found at the larger reputable physical therapy practices where they are often referred to as "cold lasers" or something of that sort.  They would be the experts on what these devices can and cannot do.  The Internet is very useful in many ways, but it is also infested with innumerable parasites  just looking to make money off of the misfortune of others.  My advice is to seek treatment from reputable practitioners and not to buy stuff off of the Internet via fly by night websites.

I would also add, it is simply not true that "nothing works for this disease".  There are multiple treatments that DO work.  They may not work for everyone, but that doesn't mean they don't exhibit effectiveness.  It is like saying that "nothing works for infections" simply because some people develop a resistance to antibiotics.  Making unqualified statements like that do a disservice to those reading them and attempt to lead them toward the scam artists.  And I really doubt that those who insists that "nothing works" have really made a serious effort OVER A PERIOD OF YEARS which is what it takes to get results in treating this disease.  Most of them are after a "quick fix" which is what the scam artists specialize in.  And they will insure that you end up, not only sick, but pennyless as well.   - George
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lgrace

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Re: Laser Wave therapy
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2013, 01:15:06 PM »

First of all, I would like to apologize for my first post. My focus was on the technology that the author on the page used, not on the particular brand of the product that he mentions. Nevertheless I understand why it was judged inappropriate and I thank you for removing the link, Hawk.

Yes, I have been a silent member for 2 and a half years. And yes, I haven't posted anything until yesterday. But NO, it is not true that I only browse the Alternative treatments forum. I have read a lot of information on this site and I would like to thank the posters for it. The reason why you think I searched only that forum is because I seldom log into my account. I do it sometimes when I want to search for e key word or to search posts from a specific user (either because I think his ideas are well-formulated and interesting - like George's for example - or because someone seems to have a peyronie's case similar to mine).

Now you think I am some sort of spammer and flamed me right away. I understand the reasoning behind iz but I would just like you to ask yourself one question:

what kind of spammer would wait 2 and a half years before spamming??

And furthermore, I think the title of the post would have been more accurate i f I were a spammer. Something like "coldlaser therapy", or "low level laser therapy", or even "phototherapy" apparently". (I found out about the exact terms as I was reading a bit more into it today at work). But I understand that spammers come in all forms.

I never posted because I never thought it could help me. I vent my frustration elsewhere, and come here to read. Most of the time, I try to forget my condition. But sometimes, I get angry (sometimes because of the pain) and search the internet in the languages I know to see if I could get a new way to approach the disease. That's what happened yesterday. I chanced upon that page and read that this technology is also used for skin problems, cell regenration, scars etc. For some reason I logged in here, did a search, found nothing, asked the question, went to bed.

I got this - guess when - 2 and a half years ago, at age 32. First I felt intermittent pain in flaccid state, no other symptoms. Then, after intercourse, I was horrified to see my glans had started to tilt towards me. I was shocked but from then things only got worse. I searched the net and peyronie's is indeed the first word that pops out when you type in "penis suddenly started bending". I was still hoping I had something else. Went to my GP, he didn't know about it. I drew my penis on a piece of paper and told him I might have Peyronie's. A few weeks later, a urologist confirmed my fears. I remember the day, it was June 21. the longest day in the year. And the shittiest day in my life. He said he had seen cases clear up by themselves. And that I could do nothing. But come back at the end of the year. I think he was sort of pissed of because I had made the diagnosis myself and knew about the disease already. I had stolen his thunder. I asked him questions, he barely responded. Then I got out, and saw him grab a newspaper and go on with his day. He wasn't whistling but he might as well have.

It was about 3 weeks between my visit to my GP and my uro. By then I had read all I could on the net and knew about the pentox. I went back to my GP, told him about it, and he prescribed it right away. I religiously took 3x 400 mg a day, + 3x L Arginin + Vitamin E + Selenium. But it was like throwing apples and bananas to stop a moving train. It started with 2 sort of spots under the glans, and these 2 started to race down the shaft, dramatically narrowing and shortening my penis in the process. I felt like a freak.

What was an matter of pride became a matter of shame.
Health became disease.
Big became small.
Pleasure became pain.

Now I only have - I think - about 1 inch from the body which is not affected by the disease. It is not that it stopped there, it is more like it plunged toward the inside of the penis at that spot. I think that's the spot where the penis bends when I sit. It has been a slow, steady progression.

 Last year, I had 2 calcified lumps at that spot. It was in 2011, when I went to a far better uro. He gave me some topical verapamil. He said it helped some people. Of course, it didn't help me. I asked him about traction, and he said that most of his patients were not satisfied with the results, as any gain in length (or girth probably) goes away as soon as you stop for a while.

I don't have much deviation : both sides sort of evened themselves up. But I have a hinge effect where the 2 calcified lumps are, and hourglass. And of course, big loss of length and girth.

Now here I am, after 2 and a half years, and I am still in pain. I still take pentox, COQ10 (uniquinol) and Arginine. I am saying nothing works because nothing worked for me. Did the pentox slow down progression? Maybe, I will never know. 

Pain is weird, it never hurts in all spots in one time. It changes constantly: left side, right side, inside the body.. That's another question I wanted to ask if somebody had the patience to read this far: until where does the Tunica go inside the body? Can you get peyronie's inside the pelvis, with no visible symptoms on that part?

Well, I am really sorry because my 2nd post is not much better than the first. I should have broken it down and posted it in the proper sections. This post is like a melting pot and I apologize for it, but I wanted to react right away to accusations of being a spammer. It's OK to be cautious but don't give in to paranoia (I wish my metabolism was as wise when it decided to fight off 2 micro-injuries in my penis insted of overreacting like it did apparently).

Sometimes I think that people are a bit too quick to dismiss something as being spam. I couldn't care less about the author on the link I posted, I was only wondering about the technology behind it. And the fact that he doesn't understand the mechanism of Peyronies Disease is absolutely irrelevant for me. If someone can't explain a headache, or explains it wrong, and says aspirin got rid of it, will you conclude that aspirin is inefficient against headaches?

Anyways cheers to all





 

 

 


 
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james1947

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Re: Laser Wave therapy
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2013, 05:45:49 PM »

OK lgrace, you are not a spammer. :)
I suppose you are a good lawyer, your post is very smooth with very reasonable answers. 8)

James
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Hawk

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Re: Laser Wave therapy
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2013, 09:19:27 AM »

lgrace, welcome to the forum.  I want to respond to our area of misunderstanding.  I don't think you were ever flamed.  I think I said I was puzzled, a huge difference!

I am further puzzled by a member that registered 2 1/2 years ago and put a scam link in his only post.  In fact it appears he has never spent any time on any other board than the "Alternative Treatments" board.  More members should have reported this to moderators.  We depend on your vigilance.

You mention that a spammer would have a more accurate title.  Actually, quite the opposite.  The main goal of most spammers is not to sell as a direct result of the post, but to embed links all over the forum to raise there page ranking in search engines like Google.

You also mention that you think we are sometimes too quick to dismiss something as SPAM.  I think quite the opposite.  As much vigilance as we have, we have spammers bust through our security every day.  If we relaxed our guard any, they would take over and destroy this forum, a fact you would not question if you were responsible for the success of a forum.  I think the evidence that we are not too quick to dismiss something as SPAM is the fact that even though we face daily attacks, you were given a full, fair chance to explain your status and to clarify your post.  You did that so we can move on.               
_______________________________________________________________
Concerning your last post.  It was clearly an "unload" and you have nothing to apologize for.  You have a lot to vent about.  I wish you only the best. 
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George999

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Re: Laser Wave therapy
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2013, 10:35:29 AM »

lgrace,  I am sure that most of us and I know that includes Hawk, sympathize with you greatly in your unfortunate situation.  By taking Pentox and CoQ10, I assure you, you are only benefiting yourself even though you may not see the evidence at this point.  If I were you, I would add VED in place of tractionVED and Pentox can be a very good combination.  As for cold laser treatment,  if you can get it from a reputable practitioner, go for it.  ADDITIONALLY, I HOPE you have considered the metabolic side.  The whole refined carb issue to be more to the point.  IF your diet includes excessive refined carbs it can drive your insulin levels up which can be a driving force in Peyronie's.  This can happen WITHOUT either weight gain OR elevated serum glucose levels.  In fact it can actually drive serum glucose abnormally low.  Only years later to glucose levels shoot high and diabetes happens.  Peyronie's is very much associated with diabetes, so IF you haven't considered that side of the equation, you should.  You not only have to fight this disease with things like Pentox, you also have to quit feeding it as much as possible with poor dietary choices.  - George
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lgrace

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Re: Laser Wave therapy
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2013, 04:14:53 PM »

Thank you again, George. You are right, and I have paid attention to the underlying metabolic disbalance that Peyronie's seems to be a signal of. As a matter of fact, I take my Peyronie's as a warning and have changed my lifestyle accordingly. I got Peyronies Disease at 32, and I lived it up in my twenties like I was immortal... So there is plenty in that decade that could be the culprit for the situation I am in today.

To get back to the laser topic, I read a few studies that are quite old (1980's and 90's) but that showed some efficiency. read

Like this for example: (I know it's smallish, but there are a few others also)

--------------------------------------------------------
NON-INVASIVE LASER THERAPY OF MORBUS PEYRONIE – INDURATIO PENIS PLASTICA

Miroslav Prochazka, M. D., Karel Koci, M. D. Rehabilitation Clinic Jarov, Prague; Andrology Clinic Andromeda, Prague, Czech Republic

Induratio penis plastica is a rare affection of male penis though occurrence is reported in 6 – 9 per cent of male population. From clinical, as well as from theoretical point of view this is very interesting kind of proliferous inflammation. Thus dual mechanism of effect of non-invasive laser beam can be employed in implicating overproduction of fibrin (and its resorption) as well as in direct influence upon inflammatory processes.

In our study 40 patients have been followed for more than a five-year period. We combine classical medicamentous techniques (colchicine, E vitamin) together with non-invasive laser of the following parameters: probes 200 and 300 mW, 50 J/cm2 continuous mode + 50 J/cm2 with beam modulated in 5 Hz frequency in one therapy bout. The therapy is applied 20 times in a row, twice a week as introductory series of procedures, followed by, according to clinical results, maintenance series of 3 – 5 procedures 2 – 3 times a year. Furthermore, we have found useful a combination with one more kind of physiotherapy – ultrasound – presumably due to erosion of syndesmotic conjunctions.

Results:

- 100 per cent of patients without painfull erection (mostly from second or third procedure on, as it is usually for the pain that patients are stirred to see a doctor, not for the deformity),

- 60 per cent of patients with significant reduction, or even fade of palpable resistance,
- less than 30 per cent of patients with marked effect on deformity of penis in the course of erection. Lesser effect on deformity during erection can be noticed with patients whose palpable resistance fade away completely. Theoretically, we are of the opinion that it is a result of permanent conversion of syndesmotic stroma of cavernous corpora, persisting even after disposal of overproducted fibrin. In general, better prognosis can be expected with patients with a clear causer of the affection (trauma, catheterization) than with idiopathic forms, or even with forms connected with other and overall affections (combination with Dupuytren´s contractures)

Conclusions:

We consider therapy with non-invasive laser to be absolutely the most effective component of the whole therapeutical complement within the scale of possible therapies of Morbus Peyronie (Induratio Penis Plastica), and therefore we establish it a routine method for all patients suffering from this affection. Its main contribution is high clinical efficacy, with negligible possible rate of theoretical risks (we have not observed any side effects of this therapy), and unique compliance of a method which is not connected with any unpleasant feelings for the patient.

Khirurgiia (Sofiia). 1989;42(4):30-1.

----------------------

Now I understand that going to a clinic for 30 coldlaser sessions and getting some minor (or no) improvement would be rather disappointing. But the difference is that today you can get a portable device and do even more sessions at home (the sessions seem to last only a few minutes daily). In that case, I think it might be worth a shot. It could, in combination with other proven therapies, add another few percent of improvement, and that would definitely be worth something. Besides, the models I have been investigating are primarily used for muscles, tendons, sprains and son on. So if it doesn't work for peyronie, I can always use it when I sprain my ankle next time playing basketball ;)

Besides, all the studies I read regarding cold-laser therapy mentionned it was very efficient against pain, which in my case has been ongoing for 2 and a half years.   

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koss

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Re: Laser Wave therapy
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2013, 02:15:07 PM »

Igrace,if you are interested in laser,you can find my topic in Introduce part of the forum. Also moderator moved some part somewhere in another topic. I cant say,it works,but I will do everything to know it. Because there were some results.
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james1947

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Re: Laser Wave therapy
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2013, 03:50:02 AM »

Difficult to say if it is a scam or not. Some members tried different kind of lasers, I don't remember someone that reported cure of his Peyronies.
A few things are making me suspicious:
* "After one year of agonizing pain and months of online research" and he didn't find our forum? Strange!!! We are very high in google search.
* The web "missing" to explain any other kind of treatment to Peyronies.
* The price of the device is not mentioned.
* No information about how it works.
I am expressing my private opinion, other may think completely different.

James
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Age 71, Peyronies from Jan 2009 following penis fracture during sex. Severe Erectile Dysfunction.
Lost 2" length and a lot of girth. Late start, still VED, Cialis & Pentox helped. Prostate surgery 2014.
Got amazing support on the forum

james1947

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Re: Laser Wave therapy
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2013, 10:13:57 PM »

johnlee

Thanks for the reflections on the subject.
In any case the article uses a lot of technical words that most people do not understand but sounds very professional.

James
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Age 71, Peyronies from Jan 2009 following penis fracture during sex. Severe Erectile Dysfunction.
Lost 2" length and a lot of girth. Late start, still VED, Cialis & Pentox helped. Prostate surgery 2014.
Got amazing support on the forum

peyroniesnofun

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Re: Laser Wave therapy
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2014, 05:50:05 PM »

I was diagnosed with Peyronie's and had a Doppler ultrasound to confirm it. I have a 45 degree upward curve. My urologist recomended interferon but I decided to go with laser treatment instead of shots with another Doctor. I have had 12 laser treatments and I can definitely feel that the plaque is getting smaller. No change in curvature yet. The Doctor said this laser has a full watt of power per treatment. I am going to continue with the laser treatments and then have another ultrasound to see how much smaller the plaque is getting.
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MattFoley

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Re: Laser Wave therapy
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2014, 12:05:41 AM »

peyroniesnofun, do you have Erectile Dysfunction caused by the Peyronie's? And if so, has the laser treatment improved your Erectile Dysfunction situation?
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