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George999

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Kudzu Root Extract ...
« on: October 06, 2012, 01:20:58 AM »

Hello all.  I just experienced a rather dramatic reduction in blood pressure on a recent doctors appointment.  My bp has always been in the 140/90 range for years now.  All of a sudden on the last visit, it was 112/73.  That is lower than I can ever remember it being on a doctors visit since I have always suffered from white coat syndrome.  When I went back over my supplement list, the only new and unique supplement I had been taking was a small amount of kudzu root.  At this point, I don't know whether that had something to do with the drop in bp, but it prompted me to 1) order more of it and 2) seriously look into what it seems to do.  This is what I found:

1)  It causes users to drink less alcohol -> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22578529

2)  It stimulates the immune system -> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23000254

3)  It inhibits cardio vascular disease -> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22922086

4)  It reverses osteoporosis -> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22878391

5)  It reduces inflammation via multiple pathways -> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22644850

6)  It attenuates endothelial insulin resistance - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22314193

7)  It suppresses TGF-beta1 -> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22079205

8 )  It lowers blood pressure via multiple pathways (among them by dilating damaged capillaries -> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=kudzu%20root%20microvascular ) -> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20933075

Here is a good summary -> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21315814

And this is just a start.  All in all I think this is a very interesting herb worthy of further investigation.  - George
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Sargonnas

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2012, 09:39:03 AM »

Could be worth a shot. Keep taking it and report back! ;) Anything that lowers inflammation its a God Send.

This is digressing but... George how its your condition nowadays? I have read like four times in 24 hours the recovered stories threads and I was surprised by yours. It seems alternative medicine couldnt get the Peyrone completely in check over time. I believe Peyrone´s its basically autoimmune, has all the features with those periodic flare ups and degeneration, plus there are solid studies confirming at least an autoimmune factpr. I mean you injury your foot right and it eventually "heals" on its own because you were stupid enough not to go to the physio, maybe it will hurt forever when you run but you can walk etc. The gradual lose of erectile function, the onset of lumps, the increase in pain, inflammation and vasculitis and eventually dephormity or bending due to calcification or osification ( I dont have this yet I think) its telling another story. Your foot doesnt mutates and becomes amorphus and hard. Are you taking Pentox nowadays and using a VED device?
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George999

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2012, 10:53:02 AM »

In terms of Peyronie's, I am doing fine.  I have gone a long time without flareups and with a long continued slow progression toward improvement.  All lumps are gone as is all pain for probably close to a year now.  All that remains is some degree of upward curvature (sideways curvature is gone completely) and some degree of tapering at the glans.  I have never used VED, although I consider it to be one of the best treatments for Peyronie's.  I have been off Pentox for a long time now.  I am not taking ALC.  The only Peyronie's specific supplement I am taking at this point is Ubiquinol.

I have also experienced a huge improvement systemically.  Back when my Peyronie's was really acute, I was getting lumps and pain anywhere on my body where I experienced even minor injury.  For example, I hit the palm of my hand on something, and in short order developed painful lumps in that location in the palm of my right hand.  Lately they have been shrinking and softening progressively and I am very happy about that and the same thing is happening in other parts of my body.  Also lately I have had similar injuries and no lumps have developed, so I really think I have this whole syndrome behind me and it is just a matter of my body slowly repairing the fibrosis that has occurred in the past.  That is why I am interested in anything that can improve micro circulation.  In the past that would be Pentox, but now I think Kudzu might be an alternative and that is what makes me interested in it.  The fact that it might be lowering my bp at the same time makes me doubly interested in it, especially if it will allow me to dump my final prescription med which happens to be a bp med.

- George
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Sargonnas

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2012, 03:04:34 PM »

I also have that hypersensibility of tissues and skin. I am in very marked state of systemic inflammation, numerous tests have pointed it out. If you scratch or hit my skin it flares ups badly, lumps if the strike was strong enough yes, this condition its called Demographiadermia or something similar and its related with my leaky gut condition, which its also backed up by tests of food allergies that demostrated I am allergic to almost everything im eating.

Im intrigued. So it seems you are much better than in that post of 2007 in the recovered thread that honestly discouraged me so much. Thats awesome! I have always been such a fanatic advocate of natural therapies and that post kind of made me think they are a fail for this condition. Indeed I wanna become a naturopath one day. All this improvement occured on its own or you did or take something specific? It seems you have progressed a lot adressing the Metabolic Syndrome, Insulin Resistance or whatever its is. How did you do it? My diet its already perfect, hysterically perfect, so that aspect its corrected.

Postdata: I also like Maca and Horny Goat Weed and used them in the early days of my condition. One increases libido and loads (hehe) and the other guarantees one stiff and uncomfortable morning wood.
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George999

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2012, 05:49:14 PM »

For me it has been a combination of supplements and diet and exercise that have been helpful.  In my case, my blood sugar was way too high, but my docs did not think it was too high and so refused to give me medication.  So I ended up using a powerful supplement, Berberine, to bring my blood sugar down dramatically.  I also eliminated as much as possible all refined carbs from my diet except for an occasional treat.  I got rid of wheat and use mostly rye instead.  I eat a lot more protein and a lot more fiber and lots of fruits and vegetables.  - George
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ashtown

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2012, 06:08:00 PM »

Can I ask what quantities you were taking George? I see this is not a particularly expensive item so I am tempted to give it a try. My only slight hesitation is that I understand my blood pressure has always been normal or even a bit on the low side and that sounds like a major drop you saw there.
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Dec 2013 - Replaced all prescribed medicines with plenty of fresh vegetables, sleep and exercise

Sargonnas

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2012, 06:32:35 PM »

George, you will find this very interesting:

Chronic dietary Kudzu Isoflavones Improve Components of Metabolic Syndrome in Stroke-prone Spontaneously Hypertensive Rats

On the other hand:

Analysis of the estrogenic compon... [J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI

I dont like estradiol. I have it high in normal and sensitive tests and I think its a large part of my Erectile Dysfunction and no libido (setting aside my phisiological problems). Once I managed to lower my prolactin with Mucuna Pruriens ( this drop from 22 pg/ml to 3 was proved by blood tests again, I was crazy with testing at that time lol) and noticed the difference in erections etc indeed I had one spontaneous in the car trip to the blood test o_O. And my prolactin was only slightly high. So imagine lowering estrogen.

On the internet it seems its not clear if the herb its estrogenic or antiestrogenic, some say it binds to estrogen receptors and others that mimics the effects of estrogen in the body:

Kudzu Root Extract Research- Anti-Estrogen - Bodybuilding.com Forums

- Med Melon, Φυσικά Συμπληρώματα Διατροφής

Quote
In clinical practice, it has long been known that phytoestrogenic medicinal herbs often have both estrogenic and anti-estrogenic actions. This variability in action remains to be elucidated in terms of potency of phytoestrogenic constituents, balance of agonistic and antagonistic tendencies and compounds, short and long term effects, as well as the problem of different methodological approaches used to identify estrogenicity. The functional endocrinological status of the consumer/patient adds to this complexity, although this is well understood by clinicians experienced in the use of these agents. For example, Cimicifuga racemosa (Black Cohosh) may be used to help correct estrogen dominance in pre-menopausal women yet supports estrogenic activity in post-menopausal women.

I guess the only way to know its take it for some time and see how emotional or "erectile" do you find yourself. Myself im very emotional with my high estradiol (and estriol in other test) I almost cried watching the first chapter of Naruto today lol And its darn cheap too. Worth a try for sure.

Finally, the herb its good for IBS and stomach spasms. God, do I love researching things, especially herbs. Maybe I was an alchemist or warlock in other life  :P
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George999

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2012, 07:11:54 PM »

A huge key to getting estrogen levels under control is often getting rid of omental fat which is the fat contained in the omentum which is just below your stomach.  That is why waist measurements at the naval offer great insights as to metabolic health.  - George
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skunkworks

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2012, 02:08:08 AM »

So you're off most everything now George? Why did you drop pentox and ALC? How long did you experiment with low dose naltrexone?

Had an a1c test recently?

I've really got to get serious about my diet and exercise again. Was doing really really well when I was eating as close to Paleo as possible and lifting heavy and doing sprints.

George999

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2012, 11:31:57 AM »

I dropped ALC years ago because it was aggravating the neuropathy problem I was having at the time.  The remnants of that problem still exist, which is why I am experimenting with kudzu, which I am really beginning to like.  With Pentox, it seemed to be aggravating my hypertension.  But more importantly, I discovered I could live without it, since Ubiquinol seemed to be fully containing my Peyronie's.  At this point that remains the case, although my uro is willing to supply me with Pentox at any time if I were to ever need it.  But for now, Ubiquinol at 100mg 3X per day is doing the job.

I am still taking the Low Dose Naltrexone.  I tried stopping it a couple of times and experienced some bowel and other problems, so for now I am continuing to take it.  I would like to get off of it just to reduce the number of things I am taking, but for now it is serving a useful purpose and I will continue to take it.

It has been a while since I have had an A1C.  It will be interesting to see the long term effects of Berberine when I do get an A1C.  My wife has blood sugar issues and has been taking Berberine for a few months and just had a follow up A1C, so those results will be interesting to see.

- George
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corvette2010

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2012, 01:09:33 PM »

I just got off of Pentox (after being on it 2x a day for a year) I have no pain and pretty much no curvature. I do sometimes still see a hourglass effect when beginning to get an erection. I am now just taking 1 coq10 (i'm only 29) daily and L-Arginine as well. Will probably continue with that combo for a while as long as i'm holding steady.
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Sargonnas

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2012, 01:22:16 PM »

I just got off of Pentox (after being on it 2x a day for a year) I have no pain and pretty much no curvature. I do sometimes still see a hourglass effect when beginning to get an erection. I am now just taking 1 coq10 (i'm only 29) daily and L-Arginine as well. Will probably continue with that combo for a while as long as i'm holding steady.

Sooo just Pentox did all the work or something else?
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skunkworks

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2012, 07:45:30 PM »

It is good to hear there may be an end date for pentox use, ie/ after a certain amount of time which will be different for everyone, it will have done all the good it can do.

It is very expensive in Aus.

corvette2010

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2012, 04:49:53 PM »

I just got off of Pentox (after being on it 2x a day for a year) I have no pain and pretty much no curvature. I do sometimes still see a hourglass effect when beginning to get an erection. I am now just taking 1 coq10 (i'm only 29) daily and L-Arginine as well. Will probably continue with that combo for a while as long as i'm holding steady.

Sooo just Pentox did all the work or something else?


No clue. Don't think any of us do. I do know that it helped. I couldn't tolerate the 3x a day but could do that 2x a day, one with breakfast and the other with dinner. During the time (it was actually 10 months not a full year), I took ALC for around 2 months, L-Arginine and coq10 for a few months. The only constant was Pentox.
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goodluck

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2012, 11:47:56 AM »

It is really good to hear of improvements people are having.

George, or anyone, have you every tried magnesium citrate to lower BP?  It s also very calming and can help you sleep better if taken at night.

Kudzu sounds interesting especially if you have high BS.

GoodLuck

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George999

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2012, 12:16:37 PM »

Interesting that you should point that out.  It causes me to recall that I just recently increased the amount of magnesium I am taking.  That also could play into my lower BP readings.  Thanks for bringing that up!  Additionally, researchers have discovered that lack of zinc promotes inflammation AND that older people are not absorbing zinc as well as had been previously thought.  Hmmm ...  - George
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james1947

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2012, 09:25:46 AM »

Have some way to check the zinc level in our body?
What is the healthy range?

James
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Age 71, Peyronies from Jan 2009 following penis fracture during sex. Severe Erectile Dysfunction.
Lost 2" length and a lot of girth. Late start, still VED, Cialis & Pentox helped. Prostate surgery 2014.
Got amazing support on the forum

pless

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2012, 01:29:07 PM »

1)  It causes users to drink less alcohol ...
2)  It stimulates the immune system ...
3)  It inhibits cardio vascular disease ...
4)  It reverses osteoporosis ...
5)  It reduces inflammation via multiple pathways ...
6)  It attenuates endothelial insulin resistance ...
7)  It suppresses TGF-beta1 -> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22079205
8 )  It lowers blood pressure via multiple pathways (among them by dilating damaged capillaries ...
Wow!  Kudzu does all the right things.  But concerning #7, by which George999 explains pentox's efficacy with Peyronies, does Kudzu do it enough?  The abstract says:

Quote
... mice were ... treated with puerarin 600 and 1200 mg/kg by gavage for 40 days

The medical lingo is ambiguous to me.  If it means 600 or 1200 mg/kg per day then it implies an extremely high dose which would be very expensive and maybe intolerable for humans.  If it means 600 or 1200 mg/kg spread over 40 days, then the dose is modest. Which does it mean? 
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George999

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2012, 06:16:11 PM »

pless,  I certainly don't mean to imply by any means that kudzu is a replacement for Pentoxifylline, because it is not.  As I have often said, the treatments of choice are Pentox, CoQ10 and ALC.  The rest, including kudzu, is window dressing.  But, for sure, kudzu looks very interesting for me and I am giving it a run in hopes that it may to some slight degree provide benefit for multiple issues, none of which are serious, but a few of which are quite aggravating at times.  - George
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pless

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2012, 09:32:08 PM »

George, you did write "In the past that would be Pentox, but now I think Kudzu might be an alternative and that is what makes me interested in it."  I too am looking for an alternative since reading this abstract. Researchers are unsure what gives pentox its efficacy against Peyronies: its antifibrotic properties; its anti-inflammatory properties; or its microcirculation enhancement.  If the third of these is crucial then pentox may be irreplaceable.  But you did bold items 5-7, and I'm curious to know whether Kudzu suppresses TGF-beta1 as pentox does.  As explained, I'm stumped by one line in the very recent abstract you found.
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George999

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2012, 09:42:29 PM »

And I think it is things like that one line you refer to that would make me hesitant to assume that kudzu could replace Pentox in a practical sense.  HOWEVER, IF a concentrated Puerarin extract were to come along, things might get even more interesting.  - George
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pless

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2012, 10:17:16 AM »

Quote
... mice were ... treated with puerarin 600 and 1200 mg/kg by gavage for 40 days

If this means the mice were given pueranin 600 mg/kg per day, then I would correspondingly take 48 g of pueranin per day, which is unthinkable.  Even if you could buy it concentrated at 100%, that's about 100 capsules per day.  Even if I took one tenth the mouse dose, 4.8 g of pueranin will be hugely expensive and of unknown safety.  I crudely guess a typical Kudzu Root extract capsule supplies 45 mg of pueranin.  Who can imagine the side effects from taking 100 times as much?  So the per day meaning of the quote rules out this benefit of Kudzu Root extract for us.

The quote might mean the mice were given pueranin 600 mg/kg over the course of 40 days.  Then I would correspondingly take 1.2 g of pueranin per day, which is thinkable.  At 45 mg pueranin per capsule that would be 27 typical Kudzu Root extract capsules.  Yes, in this case, a more highly concentrated extract would be appreciated.  Taking one tenth the mouse dose would require just 3 capsules and no need for concentrating the extract more.

It all hinges on the meaning of the quote.
 
The cheap Kudzu Root Extract I bought is 40% isoflavones, as is the LEF product. The isoflavones include daidzein and daidzin as well as puerarin.  Does any Kudzu Root Extract product state the puerarin content?  For the above paragraphs, I crudely guessed 10% of my 450 mg capsule was puerarin.
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Iseilinus

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2012, 10:31:59 PM »

Guys,

I have been taking Kudzu for about a year now. The best way is to buy it from Whole Foods in packets that are sold as a "thickener" for cooking. Its cheaper and organic, too. I use about a teaspoon per day in my morning oatmeal. It thickens it up and gives it a nice consistency.  Does it help with Peyronies? Maybe some; better erections and blood flow. Not much help with curvature.  does it help with blood pressure? I am pretty sure it does, yes. Also with appetite control and weight loss. I got interested in it when I read that diabetic rat study linked upstream in this thread. If I had to choose between Kudzu and Pentox it would be a toss up. They work fine together.  Note that Pentox also reduces blood pressure.   

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pless

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2012, 10:50:47 PM »

It is mostly the isoflavonoid pueranin that makes the Kudzu root medically interesting.  The study cited by George999 used pure pueranin.  How much pueranin is in the Kudzu root thickener (starch extract) from Whole Foods?  Without knowing this you can't say whether it's a cheaper or more expensive source of pueranin than the medicinal extracts. 

From an online article:
Quote
Depending on its growing conditions he total isoflavone content varies from 1.77-12.0% with pueranin in the highest concentration, followed by daidzin and daidzein."
This partly answers my question in an earlier post.  I should change the 10% estimate to 20% (for pueranin the fraction of my capsules).  The quote also points up why taking whole Kudzu root might give you a good bit of pueranin (at the 12.0% isoflavone end of the scale) or very little pueranin (at the 1.77% isoflavone end of the scale).  Further we don't know whether the starch extract includes or excludes the isoflavones. 
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Iseilinus

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2012, 12:03:32 PM »

Hi Pless,

Well, I have a scientific mindset, and like evidence based methods like you do.  Since I have used both standardized Kudzu root capsules, and the starch thickener kudzu, I have tried them alternatively and also tracked my BP onto an excel spreadsheet daily, together with with weight, body fat percentage, BMI, and fasting blood sugar measurements. 

For me, using 2 standardized proprietary kudzu capsules per day (1,226mg) is good for about 5 units decrease in systolic BP after several trials using no kudzu as a baseline. Alternatively, one teaspoon of starch thickener Kudzu  gives a more dramatic result of 10-15 units decrease in the systolic measurement after several trials using no kudzu intake as a baseline.  Also, this result tracked with consistent improvements in other metabolic indicators of weight and blood glucose levels.  So for BP, I am convinced that the starch thickener is more effective than standardized kudzu root capsules.

This result is probably because of the larger quantity of kudzu ingested: for example 1 teaspoon of flour is 2500 mg and 1 teaspoon of sugar is 4000 mg.  I use a heaping teaspoon so my best guess is a daily intake of about 4,000-5,000 mg of kudzu.  So I get perhaps 1,000-2,000mg of pueranin from this using your kudzu-to-pueranin ratios. If I use too much starch thickener, my oatmeal comes out poorly, so that has been my limiting factor. Also, it is not cheap; a packet costs about $8, which is expensive for a starch thickener.

I am not funded by big pharma, and I doubt they will soon be pouring $$ into double-blind placebo controlled studies on something like kudzu that can not be patented and exploited for large profits. I believe that there is a metabolic link/component to Peyronies, so it is possible that kudzu might help with the affliction.  It does not appear to be toxic in any of the literature I have accessed.   


It is mostly the isoflavonoid pueranin that makes the Kudzu root medically interesting.  The study cited by George999 used pure pueranin.  How much pueranin is in the Kudzu root thickener (starch extract) from Whole Foods?  Without knowing this you can't say whether it's a cheaper or more expensive source of pueranin than the medicinal extracts. 

From an online article:
Quote
Depending on its growing conditions he total isoflavone content varies from 1.77-12.0% with pueranin in the highest concentration, followed by daidzin and daidzein."
This partly answers my question in an earlier post.  I should change the 10% estimate to 20% (for pueranin the fraction of my capsules).  The quote also points up why taking whole Kudzu root might give you a good bit of pueranin (at the 12.0% isoflavone end of the scale) or very little pueranin (at the 1.77% isoflavone end of the scale).  Further we don't know whether the starch extract includes or excludes the isoflavones.
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George999

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2012, 10:44:04 AM »

For me, kudzu seems to be one of the best natural BP lowering products I have ever used.  And unlike most BP lowering supplements, it is apparently not just another natural ACE Inhibitor.   - George
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pless

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2012, 04:44:18 PM »

For me, using 2 standardized proprietary kudzu capsules per day (1,226mg)

"Standardized" does not describe the capsules, you must say what they are standardized to. For example, the 450 mg of Kudzu in my capsules is standardized to 40% isoflavones.  So I get 180 mg of isoflavones per capsule.  This doesn't quite say how much pueranin is in the 180 mg, but it might be safe to assume that the proportion of pueranin in the total isoflavones is unchanging.

Do your capsules each contain 613 mg of Kudzu?  Then if they are standardized like mine (and LEF's), they each contain 245 mg of isoflavones.

I use a heaping teaspoon so my best guess is a daily intake of about 4,000-5,000 mg of kudzu.  So I get perhaps 1,000-2,000mg of pueranin from this using your kudzu-to-pueranin ratios.

No no.  My information was that: "depending on its growing conditions the total isoflavone content [of Kudzu root] varies from 1.77-12.0%"

So from 4500 mg of Kudzu root you'd expect between 80 mg and 540 mg of isoflavones.  You have confused my estimate that 20% of my capsule's Kudzu root extract is pueranin, with how much of your Kudzu root starch is pueranin.

If your Kudzu soup thickener were just Kudzu root your heaping spoon would contain between 80 mg and 540 mg of isoflavones, while two of my capsules contains 360 mg of isoflavones (and two of your capsules might contain 490 mg of isoflavones).

But your Kudzu soup thickener probably isn't just dried and powdered Kudzu root.  The Kudzu root isn't all starch and your product is probably a starch extract from Kudzu root.  This means we can't compute at all how much isoflavones to expect from your heaping spoon.

I agree that your blood pressure experiment shows that you're getting more pueranin from the heaping spoon of your Kudzu starch than from your two capsules.  But you can't recommend Kudzu starch to others on that basis.  The "varies from 1.77-12.0%" throws a huge uncertainty into this recommendation.  The Kudzu root providing your starch might be near the 12.0% end while someone else's might be near the 1.77% end. Uncertainty "depending on its growing conditions" is why standardized extracts are preferable to food products for medicinal use.
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Iseilinus

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2012, 11:29:07 PM »

HI Pless,
Your "standardized" Kudzu root capsule sound similar to the specs of mine, which is Nature's Way brand; 613mg, and is suggested for "detrimental health habits".  For those interested in the kudzu starch thickener I use it is produced by Eden Organics and lists only organic kudzu root as an ingredient.  No mention of any "extraction process".  Sadly, my gas cromatography equipment is on the fritz and I only have my crude BP readings to guide me on this.

Being a complete overkill sort of personality, I actually now use both products since I don't eat oatmeal in the evening and I like to have two doses of kudzu every day to get maximum BP regulation benefit.  As as additional selling point of the Eden kudzu starch thickener, there is a great little recipe for apple cherry pudding on the back of the packet.

"Standardized" does not describe the capsules, you must say what they are standardized to. For example, the 450 mg of Kudzu in my capsules is standardized to 40% isoflavones.  So I get 180 mg of isoflavones per capsule.  This doesn't quite say how much pueranin is in the 180 mg, but it might be safe to assume that the proportion of pueranin in the total isoflavones is unchanging.
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pless

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2012, 04:57:46 AM »

Sadly, my gas cromatography equipment is on the fritz

Firstly you need a gram balance.  In my house a heaping teaspoon of cornstarch weighs 5.3 grams.  My idea of a heaping teaspoon might not be yours, and cornstarch isn't the Eden starch, but to move along with the calculation, if the Eden product is made from complete Kudzu root then 5.3 grams of it will contain between 1.77% and 12.0% isoflavones, that is, between 94 mg and 636 mg isoflavones.  Two of your capsules contains 490 mg isoflavones.  So we lack an explanation why the Eden starch was so much more effective in reducing your blood pressure than the capsules. 

If a complete Kudzu root powder costs $8 for 3.5 oz (99 grams), and a Kudzu root extract standardized to 40% isoflavones costs $7 for fifty capsules each with 613 mg, then which is a cheaper source of the Kudzu root's isoflavones? Doing the arithmetic, we find that the complete Kudzu root powder would have to be 14% isoflavones for price parity.  This exceeds the 12% limit figure in the earlier reference.  So in order to claim a thrift advantage for the Eden Kudzu powder it must not be a complete Kudzu Root powder, but perhaps a starch + isoflavonoids extract, or the earlier reference must be wrong.

I know nothing about gas chromatography, but if you can measure the isoflavone content of the Eden product that would be terrific.  If you can measure the peuranin content of the Eden product and the capsules it's even better.

 

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Iseilinus

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2012, 12:37:58 PM »

Hi Pless,

Well, this is the problem with incomplete data and drawing any scientific conclusions.  There are just too many variables in play here. Maybe there is something in my wild oatmeal concoction that has a synergistic effect with the Kudzu. Heck, maybe it is not actually peuranin content that is the main effector; there are many types of kudzu variants as you have stated. Maybe it is some other related ingredient or estrogen/lupinoid compound.

My research budget is less than $20/per month for this stuff, so progress is bound to be slow. Right now I am happy to have a BP result that would cost big pharma many millions to prove and obtain FDA approval for.  As a bonus, my peyronies symptoms are abating a bit and not getting progressively worse any longer.  That could be a coincidence, but I will keep taking the kudzu nonetheless. 

For those considering Kudzu, I have found some net discussions of possible contraindications or side effects, so do your research. Most of this information is theoretical in nature, with a lack of confirmed toxicity cases from kudzu poisoning. The most troubling that I have read of is potential serotonin toxicity in patients using MAO inhibitor antidepressants. Apparently kudzu can affect serotonin levels.  So of course, if you take kudzu, you should consult your doctor.  Who will probably know nothing about kudzu.  Good luck.


I know nothing about gas chromatography, but if you can measure the isoflavone content of the Eden product that would be terrific.  If you can measure the peuranin content of the Eden product and the capsules it's even better.
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goodluck

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2012, 10:27:43 PM »

Earlier in this thread George wrote:

"7)  It suppresses TGF-beta1 "

With respect to our condition,  What does this mean?

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swolf

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2012, 01:34:31 PM »

While reading about kudzu elsewhere I came across the statement that high doses of the isoflavones (daidzein?) present in it can increase theophylline. Haven't read anything conclusive but that's something to be aware of for anyone sensitive to theophylline (caffeine, etc), especially if taking in conjunction with Pentox.
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pizzaman

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2012, 02:34:40 PM »


On the other hand:

Analysis of the estrogenic compon... [J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI


From that study: "The results showed that the high content of isoflavones as well as the high estrogenic activity could make kudzu root extract an interesting candidate for hormone replacement therapy."

I wouldn't touch anything that could be a good candidate for estrogen replacement therapy. Phytoestrogens are particularly bad news for men, since they have the potential to decrease our testosterone by suppressing the HPTA axis. I think it's especially important to keep testosterone levels high as Peyronie's sufferers. I've experimented with just about every other oral treatment it seems, but I'm staying away from this one.
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Sargonnas

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2012, 06:04:36 PM »


On the other hand:

Analysis of the estrogenic compon... [J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI


From that study: "The results showed that the high content of isoflavones as well as the high estrogenic activity could make kudzu root extract an interesting candidate for hormone replacement therapy."

I wouldn't touch anything that could be a good candidate for estrogen replacement therapy. Phytoestrogens are particularly bad news for men, since they have the potential to decrease our testosterone by suppressing the HPTA axis. I think it's especially important to keep testosterone levels high as Peyronie's sufferers. I've experimented with just about every other oral treatment it seems, but I'm staying away from this one.

Abscesses - Akin's Natural Foods

I suspect the isoflavonic nature of this herb its antiestrogenic indeed. And notice the reported blocking effect on the the beta-adrenergic receptors. Its interesting for someone with strong markers of sympathetic dominance like me.

Its a pretty useful herb when you read about it as George noticed.

I am gonna use this in a protocol for sealing my Leaky Gut, because it works for that as well!

Effects of Puerariae radix extract on the i... [J Ethnopharmacol. 2009] - PubMed - NCBI
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goodluck

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2012, 03:14:42 PM »

I just looked up Kudzu in a herb book and it has been used in treating Breast cancer and melanoma.
I don't understant how this stuff works but is seems unclear if it would directy create an uptick in estrogen.
Maybe more so in women than men.???????

My understanding is that that Diadzien ( a substance made in the gut by Kudzu) is estrogen like and binds to estrogen receptos on the breasts cancer cells(and I am sure elsewere)  effectively locking out estrogn and keeping the cancer from reproducing. I quote below.

"Kudzu contains several chemicals similar to estrogen.  One of these chemicals, formononetin, has no effect on the body by itself but is changed by the friendly bacteria in the digestive tract into an estrogen like compound called Daidzien.  Daidzien binds to cells that would normally be activated by estrogen,  locking out estrogen from activator sites on breast cancer cells without stimulating the cancer cells to reproduce......This action also eases the discomfort of fibrotic breast disease."

Again, I don't know enough to say if this would cause the body to significantly increase estrogen production or not.


It later goes on to say that the beta blocker peurarin can reduce a racing heart and reduce swelling in the eye.

It's uses in chinese medacine has been for alcoholism, head ache, stiff necks with pain, angina, high blood pressure, deafness, neurological conditions and cancer.

It goes on to say that it enhances microcirculation which is a large interest to us.

Interesting herb.....  The only thing discouraging me right now would be the estrogenic raising effects, if there truely are any for men.

If it blocks receptor sites I don't see how it could be productive for HRT.  It may cause the body to produce more estrogen but it is being used less efficently.


Sargonnas:

 a good thing for leaky gut is L-glutamine powder.
Herbs like Marshmellow and Slippery Elm.
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goodluck

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Re: Kudzu Root Extract ...
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2012, 02:31:14 PM »

I just got some organic Kudzu root in the powder form from Mountain Rose Herbs.

$6 for 1/2 a pound. 

I am not sure yet how I am going to use. How much would be appropriate? But I thought I would share the source for other members who can't get it at a local store.
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