ORAL TREATMENTS - GENERAL - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements

[percival]

Musicman,
I too have a lot of experience in taking Potaba, and I regret to say that it did not give me any noticeable improvement after 2 years on 12 g/day (yes that is 12 grams per day).
However, there have been proper tests carried out which do show some benefit in some cases (I think you will find them on this forum)
My own feeling is that it will probably not reverse the damage done by Peyronies Disease, but it might, in some cases, slow or stop its progress.
With the wisdom of hindsight, and my own experience (echoed by many on this forum) Peyronies Disease worsens during times of great stress - eg. major family, job or financial problems -so this would be the time to take Potaba.
As such a high dose is needed, it is not the sort of medication that anyone would want to be on permanently anyway.
It is still a conservative treatment offered by some GP's and it might be one step better than doing nothing and hoping for it to get better on its own.
There is however the cost element. My supplies were 'free' on the National Health Service in the UK. If I had to purchase it privately, I would really question its benefit.
Why it should be so expensive I do not know, since the average undergraduate chemistry student could make it.
It is a very water-soluble substance which probably accounts for the need for a high dose - most of it must get excreted quickly (very quickly if it makes you throw up!). You would think that if Potaba showed some benefit then more active forms of it would have been developed by now.
Just my thoughts on the subject!
Good luck
Percival

[nemo]

Hey Guys,

What is the usual amount of L-Arginine those of you who are taking it use?  I've got a couple bottles of GNC brand in 500mg capsules, but I'm not sure what the recomended dosage is for Peyronie's.  Can anyone help?

Thanks,
Nemo

[nemo]

Come on guys, I know someone out there is taking L-Arginine ... how much you taking?

Nemo

[PainIsGrowth]

Nemo,
I've used to take 3 grams of regular L-arginine per day, since that is the recommended dose from Dr. Levine.  Some guys take more, some less.  Right now I'm taking 1 gram of VASO FLOW l-arginine a day, and its helping some.

[Liam]

Hi Nemo,

l-arginine 1000 mg three times a day

I am not taking it now due to some stomach issues thanks to other meds.  I used to double up at night (2000 mg).  It was too much on my stomach, though.  Reflux big time!

[Hawk]

I have taken as high as 6000 per day with no problems.  I helps erections noticeably.

[nemo]

Thanks, gents!  

Any benifit to splitting them up (like 1000mg, 3 times a day) versus one lump dosage at night, for instance?  Either option perceived to be better?

Nemo

[Liam]

Three times a day is recommended unless you have a time released brand.  There are many many good discussions on this subject of which I don't remember all the details.  Look at the highlights section.  Also, try searching this topic.  Sometimes we used PAV to refer to pentoxifylline, l-arginine and viagra.

[california]

Hey guys,

I'm new to this forum but have been interested in all the positive response about Vasoflow.  I was wondering how much and how frequently people were using the product and at what times? (with meals, before sleeping, etc).  Also, for those with ED issues, do you find taking it a certain length of time before activity is beneficial?

Thanks for any input in advance.  I've learned a lot from this forum and been able to resonate with a lot written here.

[gibson101]

Hey all

I need some help

Can someone who lives in california or LA please recommened a place to go to get full spectrum vitamin E!!Ive been to a couple of places but dont find it there..unless its called something else???Also been looking for VASO FLOW but have been unsuccesful in a couple of places!!Is there a certain store that may sell all these things??

thanks.

[PainIsGrowth]

For the full spectrum vitamin e, buy it online at www.vitacost.com.  they have everything, very good prices, and have been reliable.

for the Vaso Flow, get it at www.bodybuilding.com.  Cheapest place to find it online, and very fast delivery.  Best of luck.

[George999]

California, How often you take VasoFlow will depend on the effect you get from it.  VasoFlow is very unique in its design.  It is one of the few Arginine supplements that is in liquid form.  It is also formulated to be timed release and gives a very smooth effect.  IF you are Arginine resistant, which many of us seem to be, you will have a much greater effect from a much smaller dose of VasoFlow as compared to a generic Arginine supplement due to it containing other substances which facilitate its enhanced effectiveness.  Personally, I take one VasoFlow Softgel three times a day.  Once about an hour before breakfast, once between lunch and supper, and again before bed.  It works better on an empty stomach.  I usually take it with Horny Goat Weed and Maca and that seems to work well.  It has good directions on the bottle that will probably answer your other questions as well.  Like PainIsGrowth, I get it from bodybuilding.com.  They have both great prices and great service.  - George

[california]

Thanks George.  I had bought it off Vitamin Shoppe but bodybuilding.com defintiely seemed to have better prices.

[gibson101]

thanks painisgrowth

one more question ...does the full spectrum vitamin e go by a different name cause I cant find one that says "full spectrum e" maybe im just missing it???

[PainIsGrowth]

Heres a couple examples.
http://www.vitacost.com/MegaFoodNutritionalTherapeutixVitaminEComplete8
http://www.vitacost.com/Carlson-E-Gems-Elite-Natural-Vitamin-E
http://www.vitacost.com/Twinlab-Super-E-Complex-1000-IU-250-Softgels
http://www.vitacost.com/NSI-Gamma-E-Tocopherol-Complex

[Tim468]

http://smallplanethealth.com/solaray-bio-e-gamma-plex

Soalray makes a good one (I don't normally order it from this site - but it is a good example of full spectrum)..

Ingredients Amount  %Daily Value  
Natural Tocopherol Mixture:    ~  
d-Delta-Tocopherol  120 mg  ~  
Rice Tocotrienols (providing 5 mg Tocotrienol)  30 mg  ~  
d-Gamma-Tocopherol  300 mg  ~  
d-Beta-Tocopherol  5 mg  ~  
d-Alpha-Tocopherol  70 mg  ~  
Vitamin E (as d-Alpha Tocopherol)  400 IU  1333%  
Selenium (as Yeast-Free l-Selenomethionine)  200 mcg  286%  

[Hitman]

AOR ortho-core has a good breakdown of full spectrum Vitamin E.

"In summary, our current study demonstrates that gamma T and its major metabolite, but not alpha T, inhibit COX activity and thus possess anti-inflammatory activity. Our data combined with the cited human and animal studies suggest that gamma T may be important in public health. It may be that the inclusion of both alpha T and gamma T in vitamin E supplements is more effective in human disease prevention, especially considering that alpha T supplementation depresses gamma T in human plasma and adipose tissue"

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/97/21/11494.

[George999]

Good find Hitman!  I really suspect that some of the negative effects of Vitamin E that have been reported in recent studies are due to a depression of Gamma-T levels rather than an elevation of Alpha-T levels.  Vitamin E is really a whole family of interactive components and the fact that most of the health sector has ignored everything but Alpha-T for years has actually inflicted subliminal damage on people who are only getting Alpha-T in their multis and thus are pushing their Gamma-T levels down to a point that is detrimental to their health.  - George

[Hitman]

yes indeed George. Too much of the alpha form is very common in multis these days even though Vitamin E has 8 different forms. also synthetic versions of Vitamin E used in research articles to make such vitamins appear to be of little benefit. The synthetic form is d-l I believe so and its 8 different stereo-isomers of  the d-alpha form of Vitamin E.

[ComeBacKid]

I found this study on pentox and some interesting points out of it that caught my attention, since I have gotten sick many times while taking this medication.

http://www.med.ucla.edu/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=207

"Pentoxifylline has immunosuppressive actions by interfering with neutrophil adherence and inhibition of lymphocyte activation.5,6 Trental (pentoxifylline) 400 mg three times per day for one month was effective in reducing the number of recurrent aphthous stomatitis episodes for up to 9 months post therapy. No side effects were reported"

I was wondering what the heck neutrophil adherence and lymphocytes are so I looked them up!

Neutrophils


Lymphocytes

Both of these things seem to be a key player in the immune system.  I don't want to discourage usage of pentox, but anyone considering the drug should take this into consideration, especially if they are older, or more prone to getting sick, or already have some kind of virus or disease!

Comeback

[Hawk]

CBK,

I find this very interesting, new (to me) and worthy of discussion.  I think there is much more to be said on the topic.  First, I may be tired but that study was one of the most challenging I ever tried to read and I can stay with most of them if I take it slow.

I found it interesting that the pentox for 1 month reduced aphthous stomatitis which is some type of ulcer outbreak in the mouth.  I don't know if that is common herpes canker sores or not but how does supressing the immune system help that

Anyway, I notice they also mention colchicine.  I have long known and warned that colchicine can supress white blood cell count.  That is monitored with a complete Blood Count (CBC) test.  That is usually not a reason not to take it but with colchicine (much more nasty than pentox). The responsible protocol is to take a complete blood count (CBC) to get a typical reading prior to starting colchicine and then do a check after the drug has been taken for about 6 weeks to compare to make sure it is not suppressing production.  One concern is this statement

Pentoxifylline has immunosuppressive actions by interfering with neutrophil adherence and inhibition of lymphocyte activation.

I wonder if a CBC would determine neutrophil adherence and inhibition of lymphocyte activation?  It would clearly reveal supression of neutrophil production because they use a CBC with use of colchicine.

[George999]

Nice find CBK!  This certainly would be a factor to discuss with one's physician.  It would also make one wonder whether long term treatment with Pentox would be worth the risks, if those risks included such things as greater susceptibility to cancers and such.  That is where it would be a good thing to know more about the affected body chemistry.  Perhaps Tim can provide some insights here?  The immune system is so very complex and parts of it can be impaired to some degree without huge risk and other parts are better not to fiddle with.  And of course, a lot depends on the individual as well.  Some people even have somewhat overactive immune systems and that is why they actually treat certain afflictions with immune suppressants.  In any case, this connection needs to be thoroughly investigated with as many people around here taking or considering taking Pentox.  - George

[ComeBacKid]

"In the past, radiation therapy was used to decrease the strength of the immune system, but now immunosuppressant drugs are used to inhibit the reaction of the immune system. The downside is that with such a deactivated immune system, the body is very vulnerable to opportunistic infections, even those usually considered harmless. Also, prolonged use of immunosuppressants increases the risk of cancer."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunosuppressive


If pentox is an immunosupression drug,  it appears it could increase the risk of cancer, however i see little scientific data here.  Probably wouldn't be good to be on pentox longer than a year or so.

Comeback

[ComeBacKid]

Hawk,

I thank you for challenging me somewhat, cause instead of going to bed I did some more research.  You asked...

"I found it interesting that the pentox for 1 month reduced aphthous stomatitis which is some type of ulcer outbreak in the mouth.  I don't know if that is common herpes canker sores or not but how does supressing the immune system help that "

At first I thought yeah your right this doesn't make sense.  If pentox supresses the immune system in some direct or in-direct way, how could it help rid one of a herpes canker sore, essentially why would it boost the immune system in that situation but not in another situation right?

So I got to thinking, in order to solve this problem, one needs to know what causes a herpes canker sore?


"Although the exact cause is not known, aphthous ulcers are thought to form when the body becomes aware of and attacks molecules which it does not recognize.[9] The presence of the unrecognized molecules garners a reaction by the T-cells, which trigger a reaction that causes the damage of a mouth ulcer. People who get these ulcers have lower numbers of regulatory T-cells.[9]"

So as it appears to me, the herpes canker sore is caused by ones immune system attacking molecules.  

When someone would take the pentox, which occording to my theory weakens the immune system, ones "body," or immune system would not attack the unrecognizable molecules, hence perhaps that is how the pentox helps one who gets canker sores chronically?  This would make sense for this scenario and still retain my theory that pentox supresses the immune system in either a direct or in-direct way which is not totally understood(and may never be.)  I dunno this is just how I'm seeing it now that I think about it more, what do you guys think?

Comeback

[newguy]

When someone would take the pentox, which occording to my theory weakens the immune system, ones "body," or immune system would not attack the unrecognizable molecules, hence perhaps that is how the pentox helps one who gets canker sores chronically?  This would make sense for this scenario and still retain my theory that pentox supresses the immune system in either a direct or in-direct way which is not totally understood(and may never be.)  I dunno this is just how I'm seeing it now that I think about it more, what do you guys think?

Comeback

I guess on occasion we should step back and ask ourselves what damage we might be doing to our bodies in our pursuit to deal with peyronies. The answer could be 'very little', but do we actually know an awful lot about drugs such as pentox, and how safe they are in the longterm?

[Hawk]

I guess on occasion we should step back and ask ourselves what damage we might be doing to our bodies in our pursuit to deal with Peyronies. The answer could be 'very little', but do we actually know an awful lot about drugs such as pentox, and how safe they are in the longterm?

New Guy,

The question you brought up should be asked every time we take any prescription medication for any reason.  This also applies to with many over the counter remedies like Aleve, as well as many supplements.

As drugs go, Pentox is probably go a longer more observed and better documented track record than most prescription drugs that the majority of people on this forum are taking for colestorol, high blood pressure, arthritis, ED, and numerous conditions.

But... you are right.  Every drug has potential side effects.  In fact every treatment has potential side effects including VED, traction, surgery, hyperthermia, and ESWT

[Hitman]

the side effects are very individualistic in nature. everybody has a different chemistry and some people's bodies respond very well to certain drugs.

[ComeBacKid]

Newguy,

Your right, we should take a closer look at all these therapies, unfortunately the medical community still isn't doing much for peyronies disease!!!!   They don't recognize that there are more people out there who have it then they think, and the $$$ really is there to be made.  The reason I made my post, really is because I thought I discovered something new about pentox.  I recgonized that I got three colds in three months, and may now have picked up a virus, that ones immune system can fight off in about 6 months.  I seem to have the virus slightly more severe than the average mate.  I put these things together and questioned pentox having an impact on ones immune system.  I also recalled from the past some of tim's, hawk's, and george's comments on it, vaguely.  I did a little homework and seem to uncovered new information about it.  I wanted to pass it on to you guys to make you aware, some people may not be able to afford to take a hit in their immune system.  If I find any more information out I'll pass it along so everyone can stay informed on this medication.  As I watch TV and see more and more drugs and medicines being prescribed, than afterwards they list 20-30 possible side effects, one has to wonder, is this really good for the body?   Will any medication such as birth control for women, or something like accutane, which i was on in the past, disrupt the body in any negative way?  I know for me that being on accutane at age 17, made my joins so stiff i had to quit running cross country, and missed an entire season, this can't be healthy at all.  I just think theres a lot of things about all these drugs we don't know, may never know until its to late, and things the drug companies know but don't want to tell us!

Comeback

Comeback

[Tim468]

Neutrophil adherance does not affect viral infection, as those white cells do not lead the battle against viruses.

Lymphocytes can be involved in viral disease fighting.

Getting three colds is much more likely to be due to bad luck than immunodeficiency - this is a common problem we all face which is to figure out cause and effect. I tend to believe now in taking the slow release vitamin C because I have not had a significant cold since I started it over 1.5 years ago. But I am not really sure, any more than CBK can be sure that Pentox affected his vulnerability to colds.

Personally, I am more interested in getting my penis straight and functional and it seems that follwoing up on the testosterone connections might be more fruitful than the pentox pathway. Like many of us, I yearn for a thoughtful urologist and an algorithm to guide our hand. I yearn for the day when urologist will gather data in a thoughtful manner, and then make decisions based on our biochemical individuality such that our odds of getting better are best.

Otherwise, we are all, like CBK, in the dark.

Tim

[Hawk]

Tim,

Can you give a lay description what role neutrophils have in our immunity and the possible impact of pentox?

As NewGuy indicates this can be crucial info for some.  I think due to the age of many Peyronies Disease patients that we do have to exercise caution.  On one hand, prostate cancer is a testosterone fed cancer.  Prostate cancer in a slow-growing form is present in many older men.  Compromised immunity may add to this or a host of other problems.  I am puzzled why pentox unlike colchicine does not seem to list impact on white cells as a side effect.

I do know neutrophil count (as opposed to adherence) is a major concern in chemo patients.  If reduced adherence renders them unable to perform their task, I would think this is significant.  I also wonder if this is typical.  The suppression of white blood cell count by colchicine is not a typical side-effect but a possible side-effect.

While we don't need to cause a phobia of testosterone when it is clearly needed, or of pentox, we need to know that these substances are not targeted "smart drugs".  Everything from food to meds, to herbs and supplements impact a dynamic system.

[George999]

ON THE OTHER HAND ... Haven't I heard somewhere speculation that Peyronies may involve an autoimmune factor?  If so, perhaps this is actually a means by which Pentox is beneficial to Peyronies patients.  (I know that this is off the wall ... but I just decided to throw it in as a thought provoker).  - George

[Hawk]

Haven't I heard somewhere speculation that Peyronies may involve an autoimmune factor?  If so, perhaps this is actually a means by which Pentox is beneficial to Peyronies patients.  (I know that this is off the wall ... but I just decided to throw it in as a thought provoker).  - George

That is almost a verbatim quote that I made to Comebackid in a pm conversation.  Regardless, it does not negate the other concerns.

[ComeBacKid]

Are you implying via your comment, that you agree that pentox weakens ones immune system in a direct or in-direct way?  What do you think of the UCLA study?

Comeback

[Tim468]

I don't have time for a long (or even short) answer to your question right now, Hawk. I will try to get to it in a bit.

Pentox does not "weaken" the immune system. That is a poor description of its' effects. Rather, it "modulates" the immune system. If you have inflammation, "modulation" (or suppression) may be a good thing. If you are normal, then you shouldn't be taking anything.

The entire point of taking Pentox is to downregulate the TGF generating system (which is part of a "normal" immune response) when that system is out of control. Pentox has many other effects, such as effects on platelet aggregation and adherance, TNF production, etc. These are effects on the immune system.

Whether the overall effects are good for you or bad for you depend on why you have Peyronie's, what caused it, what systems are upregulated, and what else you are taking or doing to your body. Unfortunately, we do not have (and when it is possible, we do not get) a method of diagnosis that is thorough and complete and thoughtful that looks at immune function, TGF, overall autoimmune function etc. All that is still in the realm of experimental medicine, except almost no one is doing the experiments.

Tim

Tim

[George999]

Tim's post points out a simple fact of life that most patients are quite unaware of.  The very characteristics that make a drug/herb/supplement (even food) effective in treating a given condition can also cause it to have risks.  Human physiology is very dynamic.  Its processes and subprocesses are legion.  And they are all interconnected.  A cynical perspective concludes that "you fix one thing and break another".  But the reality is that every individual and every case is different.  That is why we have physicians who are trained to recognize those subtle differences and prescribe accordingly as much as possible in order to avoid the pitfalls.  But it is also a major pitfall to have a simplistic view that no risks are acceptable.  That would preclude one from ever using any medication, most supplements, and even some food products.  And I have to tell you, what really cracks me up is people who complain about the imagined side effects of their medications while they puff away on their cigarette.    Most certainly we should be aware of possible side affects and know as much about them and their implications as possible, but we have to retain a balance and recognize that everything in life that offers benefits also holds risks.  They need to be assessed and managed but not allowed to terrify us into inaction.  - George

[George999]

Here is a typical example of how just about everything you ingest can have a downside:

http://www.healthday.com/Article.asp?AID=607889

- George

[nectar]

Extarnal apply to skin cooper or/with oil vitamin E  by DMSO  is safe    is it good and work also for plaques

thank you from now / Nectar  

[Hawk]

Nectar,

There are no studies, surveys, or even random reports that Vitamin E applied to the skin with or without DMSO would penetrate to Peyronies Disease plaque.  DMSO only carries substances that have a certain molecular weight.  I have no idea what the molecular weight of Vitamin E is our the weight of the base it is dissolved in.  Even if the vitamin E was carried by the DMSO, it would be questionable whether it carries it the entire way to the plaque, beyond the plaque, or to the network of blood vessels.  In fact we know it carries it into the blood stream or the DMSO would not be detected on the patients breath.

I will move these posts to the DMSO topic.

[roadblock]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17764527&ordinalpos=23&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Apparently taurine has some activity against TGF beta...kinda what we are all looking for I guess. Upside is it's cheap and readily available...goes into the "can't hurt" category most likely. Also, looks like we have documentation that it has reversed fibrosis of at least two different kinds...in the lung and pancreas.

Stay positive!

[Liam]

Taurine is in Red Bull.  Interesting.

[Tim468]

Interestingly, taurine did not lead to reversal of fibrotic pathways when use alone, but did do better than control when combined with N-acetyl cysteine (NAC).

http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/52/2/499

The other chemical that helped in this model of diabetes related fibrosis (collagen deposition was measured by skin levels of pentosidine) was Oxerutin (which is another flavanoid like Rutin).

I don't know if they checked all three together. They said in the conclusion: "Treatment with oxerutin and combined treatment with NAC plus taurine gave the most encouraging results, whereas the results of taurine-only treatment were either negligible or negative and therefore suggest caution in the use of this molecule in single-drug treatment courses."

In a rat model of renal fribrosis, they found that taurine: "treatment with taurine reduced the TGF-beta 1 mRNA levels in 24- and 30-mo-old rats by 40%. Taurine also completely blocked increases in type I and type IV collagen expression in mesangial cells in response to TGF-beta 1."

http://ajprenal.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/278/1/F122

The jury still appears to be out on taurine, but anything that reduces collagen production and TGF pathways is worthy of further evaluation.

Tim

[gibson101]

I stumbled across this....im not very knowledgable at all with this stuff but is the statement below a load of balogne??......one more question..is there a difference between peyronies and scar tissue??i didnt spontaneously develope peyronies...i injured myself and then about after a month my little guy turned hard....i know it is scar tissue....i dont have any pain though...im jst flying a little blind though as i dont know what will help or make it worse...ive been on pentox and cialis and sum other things for +/- 7months now and have not seen any significant worsening so that is good i guess..i was told by doc to wait a year cause that is how long it usually takes to do its business......bt i was told by one doctor overseas that some medicine can wash out the scar tissue bt i havnt been able to go to him again bt from my reseach and stuff it doesnt seem there is

"there is product on Jon Barron's website www.baselinenutritionals.com called PHi-zymes that will dissolve the scar tissue. Go to his website and click on catalogue/shop and you will see the PHi-zymes listed there. Category C has the best price. These were originally called Proteolytic enzymes but has reformulated them and renamed them.
This is taken from his website....
If you take a healthy dose of a wide ranging proteolytic (protein digesting) enzyme formula between meals, the enzymes can make their way into the blood stream with a broad array of potential health benefits. This formula can help reduce inflammation and swelling in the body, clean out and repair the cardiovascular system, dissolve blood clots and scar tissue, digest fibroid cysts, and digest Circulating Immune Complexes, which helps eliminate autoimmune disorders and allergies. For athletes, it can also improve performance and reduce recovery time. Note: this formula is so powerful, so unique, so remarkable that Jon Barron has filed a patent on it. pHi-Zymes are an absolute revolution in systemic proteolytic enzymes.* "

sorry if this is a waste of time

[j]

A small informal study on NAC for Dupuytren's has been going on in Germany for some time:
   http://www.dupuytren-online.info/dupuytren_NAC.html

Here's an abstract on the possible effect of NAC on TGF-beta:
   http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16563228

I've seen posts from a couple of people with Dupuyten's who've tried NAC, but no positive results yet.

[ninjagaiden]

For those interested in Taurine treatment,
I suggest taking the Red bull (good advice Liam) along with a couple of JD on the rocks, since whisky helps the taurine to be assimilated in the blood faster...
Add some crisps, crackers, sausages, foie gras...
...and you got yourself a nice aperitif!  

I'll remove this silly comment on demand, I know it's not the right place (but I could not resist Liam's half serious comment).

More seriously, does taurin goes in the "can't hurt" box as roadblock said? there are 2 versions on the Web I just found:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurine  : very positive, Taurine will solve many of your life problems...

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurine   : hmm, the french site has a more contradictory POV. I can translate on demand (10$ per line  ) but apparently, it has some side effects (again, it's hard to tell since they say "no research could precisely determine whether Taurine could be safely used or not as a supplement "), but they say that GI's who were given Taurine during the Vietnam and Korean War as an antidepressant and in order to increase their mental vigilance has resulted in headaches and some brain haemorrhage...

I wonder how the mouse tells the research guy that she's got headaches...

If you try it, check how much you can take per day, cause too much of a good thing could be a bad thing.
I think it could be used in a combination maybe for anti-fibrotic purposes, but I don't want to be hyper-focused all day long.

The PHI-zymes mentioned by Gibson101, I don't know, but I'm very cautious with revolutionary treatments with no scientific backup. There are so much stuff supposed to improve overall health, naturally, no side effects, blablabla, buy 3 for the price of 2... When you look at the description, this is a miraculous enzyme.
A few days ago, I looked for some natural supplements against fatigue, many of them were miraculous as well, especially the "Avena Sativa" supplement, supposed to naturally increase testosterone in human beings, reduce fatigue and so on...
When you look at Avena Sativa, its common name is "oats".
Take a bowl of Quakers' oats every morning and you'll be strong as a horse!

When they say it's a new, miraculous complex of "blablabla", ask them what the "blablabla" is composed of, then check in books or on the web. Most stuff sold at high prices is bull...t. And as George999 means, it's hard to tell the side-effects of everything we swallow, so many complex reactions and interactions... and so many contradictions on the web  .
I would rather take a topical treatment than something that goes all over the place in my body and will cause god-knows-what minor or major reactions.
But I'm just paranoid I guess.

[DannyOcean]

Hey guys.  It's been a while since I've been on here but have a couple of questions.  My Peyronies Disease basically seems unchanged over the last six months.  I'd love to say that I've improved but I don't think that's the case.  On the other hand, things don't seem to have gotten worse, I can have intercourse and don't have any pain so I consider myself fortunate.

Anyway, here are my questions:

#1 - I've been taking Horny Goat Weed a couple of times a day.  However, I also take a 25 mg dose of Viagra before sex, as much for protection (I feel less likely to re-injure myself if I have a harder erection) as for any medicinal properties.  I'm wondering two things.  One, is there any danger of taking both HGW and Viagra at the same time?  I seem to recall someone saying something about this back in the day but couldn't find the post.  Second, I'm wondering if I could just up the HGW consumption and do away with the Viagra (which is expensive, gives me a stuffy nose, etc.).  I saw Tim post that he does 5 grams(?) of HGW daily and that was the equivalent to about 50 mg of Viagra.  Seems like a lot so made me wonder...

#2 - Many people here seem to rave about Full Spectrum Vitamin E so I thought I'd start that.  Any recommendations for brands, etc.  I searched Amazon and didn't come up with much.  

Thanks guys for all the help!!!

[pal-31]

Hi all,

Just a quick question, I have missed one dose of my 2 x 400mg daily. I have been on it for 5 months. Is this such a big deal or not really ?

I know this seems to be a trivial question but I kind of feel bad about having to miss a dose.

Thanks in advance,
Pal

[Hawk]

Pal,

I am not a medical professional but I cannot imagine any patient taking pentox for any condition that has not missed a single dose in 5 months.  Stressing over it for an hour will cause more harm than the missed dose.  Forget about it and continue on your course.  

[Tim468]

Pal

Us docs live for patients like you... don't worry - no big deal.

Tim

[George999]

As some of you may know, over the past month I have been experimenting with Tongkat Ali LJ100 Extract from Herbal Powers (reputed to be the TA expert).  What led me to this is the fact that Tongkat Ali is believed to boost Testosterone levels which is believed to be beneficial in terms of Peyronies.  At this point I feel it appropriate to share what I have learned through that process.

The label on the bottle basically advises 2 to 4 caps per day, no more than 8.  The label also advises frequent short breaks and intermittent long breaks.  I decided to do 4 per day, 5 days on, 2 days off.

The first week by day 4 I was experiencing increased energy and significantly enhanced libido, slept well at night and just feeling great.  By the 5th day, my energy level was climbing, but my libido was slipping and I was experiencing some insomnia on the 5th night.

The second week my libido was so-so, my energy levels where rising through the roof and the nights were becoming hell as I shortened the regimen from 5 days to 4.

The third week, libido continued so-so, my energy levels continued high, sleeplessness continued, and my blood pressure was noticeably on the rise. and I was getting very cranky and irritable.  I was also noticing some weight gain going on.  Mainly due to the rising blood pressure, I cut the TA off completely on the third day.

My plan at this point is to take a 6 to 8 week break.  Now at the end of the fourth week (with no TA), my energy levels are still high, my libido hasn't taken a dive (really no better or no worse than before starting the TA), my weight is moderating, I am no longer irritable, and my ability to sleep at night has returned.  I am also convinced that this stuff does work, although I don't have a great deal of confidence in being able to get it to do what I want it to do without driving me insane.

At the point I take another shot at it, I will try it at 2 per day instead of 4, and hope it works out better that way.

I will keep you all posted.

- George

[Tim468]

George,

I have had trouble fidning articles that document increases in testosterone with Tongkat Ali. Do you have any good references? The socalled world's expert listed on the sites doesn't seem to have any peer reviewed publications. That does not mean it is bunk - I am just wondering.

In terms of your findings. When you say "getting it to do what you want it to do", do you mean reduce curvature of fibrosis? If so, are there any indicators that you plaque or curve are better?

Wonderingly, Tim