Demystifying Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid) for use in Peyronies Disease

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Holistic

Demystifying Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid) for use in Peyronies Disease


DISCLAIMER: This post is not in any way offered as prescription, diagnosis nor treatment for any disease, illness, infirmity or physical condition. This is for informational and educational purposes only about vitamin C.  Any form of self-treatment or alternative health program necessarily must involve an individual's acceptance of some risk, and no one should assume otherwise.  Persons needing medical care should obtain it from a physician.  Consult your doctor before making any health decision.


History

Human ancestors millions of years ago were able to produce C in the body by converting L-gulonolactone into ascorbic acid via the liver. They also lived in environments that provided natural foods high in Vit C. However, over the course of an evolutionary accident that removed the production capability 40 million years ago compounded by physicians and other authorities call to reduce ascorbic acid intake, most people now days are deficient in Vit C.

What is Vit C

It is a water-soluble vitamin which means it is quickly coursed and eliminated through the body in a day. C is an antioxidant which means it prevents malignant cells from oxidizing and can prevent free radical damage in the body.
It has a uniqueness in the fact that it can be given in massive doses with a high degree of safety.

Mechanism Of Action
The pharmokinetics are more complicated than that of a regular drug and are not fully known.

Role in the body
Most important role is the ability to form and maintain healthy collagen, the body's structural and ground substance. Without collagen, the body would not hold itself together.

It is a detoxicant and neutralizes toxins such as bacterial, drug, animal and carcinogens in the body. It even has been shown that it increases the effect of drugs and medicine to make them more effective. It is a virucide and bactericide which makes it effective in alleviating many bacterial and viral diseases.

Role in cancer/cancer like cells

Cancer cells are selfish cells which uses local oxidation to drive growth and create C-reactive proteins (CRP) and Reactive oxygen Species (ROS) which are markers of inflammation. Lack of anti-oxidants will provide carcinogens to increase. The use of ascorbic acid reverses that process by destroying cancer cells and improving the health of the rest of the body.

Cancer and its modern medical treatments are significant stressors on the body and deplete it of vitamins.

"Present-day cancer therapy thus virtually ignores the potential of ascorbic acid as a biochemical stress combatant, a detoxicant, an anticarcinogenic agent, a means for maintaining homeostasis, and a mechanism for improving the well-being and survival of the patient."

Vit C is an anticancer agent which kills cancer achievable through oral supplementation. It kills cancer cells by generating hydrogen peroxide and other oxidants. However, Vit C in tumors acts as an oxidant vs anti-oxidant. This means C targets the cells and generates a selected oxidation factor to kill the cell. It does this by C converting itself into dehydroascorbate which creates hydroxyl radicals. This destroys cancer through apoptosis and other ways. So it basically creates a hostile environment for cancer. However, this can only be achieved via high levels of C.

Starving a cancer cell can be a potential treatment thus a good reason to avoid carbohydrates and sugars.

I discuss Cancer because Peyronies Disease shows similar behaviors to cancer in the sense of inflammation and oxidative stress. Peyronies Disease is not cancerous though. But has similar properties from the research I've looked up

Role in vascular disease

The main structural component in the vascular system that provides strength and elasticity is protein collagen. The synthesis of healthy collagen requires the presence of ascorbic acid. If too little ascorbic acid is present in the making of collagen, it will be weak.

Linus Pauling states human cardiovascular disease (CVD) is primarily a degenerative disease caused by ascorbate deficiency. Ascorbate deficiency results in morphic changes in the vascular wall. The body avoids fatal depletion of ascorbic acid and then increases plasma concentration of vasoconstrictive factors like lipoprotein a Lp(a) and fibrinogen...hallmarks of atherosclerotic lesions.

Low ascorbate causes decrease collagen and elastin which drives Lp(a) to strengthen the vessels. Increased ascorbic eliminates the need to produce Lp(a) to protect the walls. It essentially replaces Lp(a) which is good.

High fat diet or cigarette smoking can decrease ascorbate in the body. Which means smokers need more C. Collagen and elastin are the principle factors in the cellular matrix in the body. Deficiency leads to incomplete formation and weakens the extracellular matrix.

"A most exciting paper by G.C. Willis (20) appeared in 1957 entitled "the Reversibility of Atherosclerosis."  In this study atherosclerosis was induced in guinea pigs by depriving them of ascorbic acid.  Some guinea pigs were then given large doses of ascorbic acid and it was found that in these animals the beginning atherosclerotic lesions were rapidly resorbed while the more advanced atherosclerotic plaques on the artery walls took longer.  There was a steady decline in the incidence of the lesions in direct proportion to the duration of ascorbic acid therapy.  The significance of these observations for man is tremendous -- they open the way to the megascorbic prophylaxis of atherosclerosis -- but they never were tested further."

The work of Dr. Klenner has helped Atherosclerosis with ascorbic therapy.

It has been said that Peyronies Disease is similar to atherosclerotic issues of the penis. Applying the logic for the body to the penis may help.


Role in tissue dysfunction (i.e. peyronies)
"Repetitive microtrauma of the penile tissue during sexual intercourse is thought to be the initiator of a local autoimmune reaction in genetically susceptible individuals. This leads to abnormal healing and consecutive development of Peyronies Disease."
When the body undergoes stress from many organic causes, it produces a reactive oxygen species (ROS) which is a marker of inflammation with cytokines. Also seen in cancer, there are reports of increase in Peyronies Disease. Read more in the article in the sources (role of antioxidants in Peyronies Disease).

When Peyronies Disease happens, there is an irregular formation of collagen. The normal collagen in the penis is Type 1, the irregularity is the overproduction of type 3 which is the firm tissue that you feel. You can read about the Peyronies Disease phases and collagen lay out in the article in the sources (recent pathophysiological aspects...) there is also a laying of Fibrin which isn't good. Fibrin attracts other cytokines like TGF-b1 which is a major cytokine in Peyronies Disease. Discussed in the above said article.

The use of Vitamin C with Peyronies plays a good role. As you can read based on theories of Peyronies Disease being atherosclerotic in nature and overproduction of type 3 collagen, Vit C attacks the inflammatory cells and helps provide stability to the area and lays down healthy tissue. There are no studies on Vit C and Peyronies directly but when applying theory to the body, one can apply mechanics to this local inflammation. Which may make Vit C valuable when treating Peyronies.

Deaths or toxicity from Vit C

An annual report of the American Association of Poison Control (AAPC) enters published a Journal Clinical Toxicology that shows zero deaths from any B vitamins and no deaths from Vit A,C,D,E or from any other vitamin. Since records start from 1983. If there was a death where a vitamin was involved, the vitamin was not the cause. The AAPC uses a 4 point scale to determine the responsibility of the death (1 being undoubtedly responsible and 4 being probably not responsible). One death in 2006 there was one vitamin death but with other factors involved, the vitamin was labeled a 4 and was negated.  Source: U.S. National poison data system.

Taking too much C at once will give the body a bowel tolerance (saturation). This results in loose stool. It goes away with reduction of ascorbic acid. I myself have taken up to 26 grams of ascorbic acid per day for a few days when I was sick and was fine. People have taken up to 100g when having a cold or flu. Ive taken about 10-16 grams daily on average for a course of months and was fine. No issue. Look at the sources below and research for yourself on the safety and uses of Vit C. The Vitamin Website below (doctor yourself) by Andrew Saul has a ton of information backed by evidence of Doctors and clinical studies on doses of Vit C.




Sources

Clinical Guide to the use of Vit C by Dr. Klenner: https://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorbate/198x/smith-lh-clinical_guide_1988.htm

The Healing Factor by Irwin Stone (pretty cool book): The Healing Factor: Vitamin C Against DiseaseC

Niacin The Real Story by Abram Hoffer

Vitamin C and Chemotherapy, Hickey and Roberts, J. of orthomolecular med. 2008. 23(4)

Vitamin Cand Cancer: Is there a use for oral Vitamin C?, Hickey and Roberts, J. Ortho. Med. 2013 28(1)

Role of Oxidative stress in Peyronies. Sikka and Hllstrom: https://www.nature.com/articles/3900880

Recent Pathophysiological Aspects of Peyronie's Disease: Role of Free Radicals, Rationale, and Therapeutic Implications for Antioxidant Treatment—Literature Review. Paulus et al. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28744308/

Solution to the Puzzle of Human Cardiovascular Disease: its Primary cause is Ascorbate Deficiency Leading to the Depostion of Lipoprotien(a) and Fibrinogen/Fibrin in the Vascular wall. Rath and Pauling. https://www.dr-rath-foundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Solution-to-the-Puzzle-of-Human-Cardiovascular-Disease.pdf

Vitamin web page free of ads and AMA sponsers: DoctorYourself.com: Andrew Saul's Natural Health Website
32 yo. Unknown cause. 1st plaque proximal left base near pelvis 9/19. Expanded and shrunk after 8 mo by 50% (still working on it). Minor bend but malleable. 2nd small plaque 5/20 superficial distal right just under tip. Currently growing. No bend.

TonySa

PxD 2 yrs 9/16.  Failed all treatment. 9/11/18: excision, grafting & implant Dr Karpman MtnView Ca, AMS CX 18cm + 3-1cm RTEs.
Pump failed.  2/11/20 Dr Karpman installed Titan 22cm +1cm RTE.

Holistic

Thank you TonySa!

Im a big fan of Vit C and orthomolecular medicine and after I cruised through posts of people being unsure about what vitamin C does to the body orally or topically, I figured I'd help clear the air.
32 yo. Unknown cause. 1st plaque proximal left base near pelvis 9/19. Expanded and shrunk after 8 mo by 50% (still working on it). Minor bend but malleable. 2nd small plaque 5/20 superficial distal right just under tip. Currently growing. No bend.

drew67

I've been doing vit C IV 30-35 Grams twice a week for several months.  no improvement

pey ron

Please go to PROFILE then FORUM PROFILE to replace this signature line text with your profile info such as
age, date of onset, symptoms, treatments tried,
relationship status, etc
** You will waste less time and get better answers **

Paolo

Sadly a lot of Vitamin C has lead contamination, be careful if you are mega dosing it. Most Vitamin C originates in China, be careful.

If you are going to do this it gets expensive as the 'safest' C is Quali® - C and originates from Scotland.

I may try mega-dosing vit C but if I do it will be with this type, also Liposomal C is very, very potent.

As with all supplements do research them, there is a LOT of garbage out there.

Paul.
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.

Bent Ding Dong

@Paolo, is Quali® the only kind of vitamin C that's not made in China?

My lead levels are high and I have vitamin C every day, it's probably this! Might have to get myself some Quali then.

Age, 40's.

Had peyronie's for more than 10 years. Developed glans lump, then had poor erections and soft glans.

Made a lot of progress over the years with diet and avoidance of sugar and high carbs. Still have the lump but it's much smaller now.

Paolo

Yep, it is due to the manufacturing processes, don't over-sweat it, we are talking PPM (parts per million) of lead, it gets problematic when you are taking many grams, that s**t adds up!
Hey, I grew up in the seventies when they were putting that s**t in petrol!

That is (one) of the reasons why some supplements on initial inspection appear expensive, in this case you get what you pay for, just my 2c  :)

By the way manufacturers are 'sneaky' if you ask for a COA (Certificate of Authenticity) lead is never, ever mentioned (I wonder why lol).

Paul.
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.

Bent Ding Dong

Hmm, OK. We are so dependent on China, even most of the drugs are made there or the chemicals needed to make them come from there.

I know this is off topic but what else besides vitamin C contains lead in it that I should be worried about?
Age, 40's.

Had peyronie's for more than 10 years. Developed glans lump, then had poor erections and soft glans.

Made a lot of progress over the years with diet and avoidance of sugar and high carbs. Still have the lump but it's much smaller now.

Bent Ding Dong

Oh and another thing Paulo, is Liposomal Vitamin C made in China?
Age, 40's.

Had peyronie's for more than 10 years. Developed glans lump, then had poor erections and soft glans.

Made a lot of progress over the years with diet and avoidance of sugar and high carbs. Still have the lump but it's much smaller now.

Paolo

No Liposomal C is super safe and made with Quali-C  and now nitrogen (no oxygen) so no oixidation can occur.
Look for the trade mark Quali-C and you good to go  :)

Lipolife have a Distributor in New Zealand AmTech
Tel: 0800 268 324

https://www.amazon.com.au/GMO-Free-Vitamins-Ingredients-Bioavailability/dp/B085KX3ZX9/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?dchild=1&keywords=Buffered+Vitamin+C+%28Quali-C+Sodium+Ascorbate%29+250g&qid=1597066661&sr=8-2-fkmr0

https://www.amazon.com.au/Liposomal-Vitamin-1000-Liquid-Absorption/dp/B00YM8JRZU/ref=sr_1_12?dchild=1&keywords=quali-c&qid=1597067048&sr=8-12

If you get one of the above then let me have your honest assessment of it, please  :)

Isn't Cilantro and Chlorella supposed to be good for heavy metal chelation, hmmn  :-\

Did you have hair analysis confirming your toxicity of Lead and other metals??
Paul
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.

Holistic

Vitamin C is not the main cure all for Peyronies Disease. However it can help. I took oral C for months around 12-16 G and didnt see anything drastic but reading the literature, it provides a hostile environment for bad cells that lead to inflammation etc. however due to the lack of vascularity in the tunica albuginea, it may be hard to get the vitamin there.

To combat that, some have saturated C in water and applied it with DMSO which is what I am starting to do along with ACV.

As far as lead and C...I dont know what everyone is buying but I but pure C powder from a brand called NOW. I dont get many capsules due to additives. But I have them. Pure C crystals is Pure C. I do know brands like Natures Bounty have had Lead in some supplements but those are pills and capsules. You shouldnt have to break bank to get pure C. Just look up Andrew Saul's website about VitC (source at the bottom of my post). It will have more than enough info evidence based thatn youll need.
32 yo. Unknown cause. 1st plaque proximal left base near pelvis 9/19. Expanded and shrunk after 8 mo by 50% (still working on it). Minor bend but malleable. 2nd small plaque 5/20 superficial distal right just under tip. Currently growing. No bend.

Bent Ding Dong

@Paulo, I have had both hair mineral test done and the laser scan for testing the toxicity.

I have seen some liposomal C advertised that doesn't mention Quali-C so I assume it's not the real deal?

How good is liposomal C, can you feel it doing anything? Will the liquid absorb through the skin on the penis?
Age, 40's.

Had peyronie's for more than 10 years. Developed glans lump, then had poor erections and soft glans.

Made a lot of progress over the years with diet and avoidance of sugar and high carbs. Still have the lump but it's much smaller now.

Paolo

Hi there, the Liposomal C if it's quality is gonna mention that Quali-C is incorporated in it.

You can also get pineapple formulated Quali-C but its very expensive.

You really can only take Liposomal C orally as it is absorbed 85% via stomach, normal Ascorbate powder about 25% absorbable, that is why you need 'big' doses of Ascorbate via oral route. You can see then that oral Liposomal C is the best route just my 2c.

What about the products I linked into on my previous post, both with Quali-C, one a powder the other Liposomal.

Take care, Paul.
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.

Bent Ding Dong

OK but people on this forum are having DMSO and ascorbic acid applied topically to the penis with some success, was wondering if lipo would work better. Are the particles smaller than your standard ascorbic acid?

Those products that you listed look great. I'm trying to consider if it's worth paying about 10 times more for it though. Do you notice the benefits from it more so than standard vit C?
Age, 40's.

Had peyronie's for more than 10 years. Developed glans lump, then had poor erections and soft glans.

Made a lot of progress over the years with diet and avoidance of sugar and high carbs. Still have the lump but it's much smaller now.

Holistic

I would check out the dmso+X page to look for smaller particles and that was the purpose for creating that thread. A lot of things were labeled and explained. You'll have to read through

A lot of vitamin users would say that all u need is the cheapest ascorbic acid that is pure. You dont need the most expensive. Sure people could argue why expensive is better but honestly if people are reporting benefits with just the basics...no need to complicate things. Just be patient.

Ascorbic acid's mechanism for the body is nothing but beneficial.  
32 yo. Unknown cause. 1st plaque proximal left base near pelvis 9/19. Expanded and shrunk after 8 mo by 50% (still working on it). Minor bend but malleable. 2nd small plaque 5/20 superficial distal right just under tip. Currently growing. No bend.

peyroniesurprise

31 yo, Hourglass Peyronies likely because of masturbation

Treatment: Vit E and fish oil (vitD+E), no more masturbation; good improvement so far, less hourglass both in flaccid and erect state, little to no pain during erection now

Holistic

32 yo. Unknown cause. 1st plaque proximal left base near pelvis 9/19. Expanded and shrunk after 8 mo by 50% (still working on it). Minor bend but malleable. 2nd small plaque 5/20 superficial distal right just under tip. Currently growing. No bend.

jan.schaller1958

I do not find any of these claims convincing.

Regarding Vitamin C supplementation:


,,There is some evidence that regular use of supplements may reduce the duration of the common cold, but it does not appear to prevent infection.[12][13][14] It is unclear whether supplementation affects the risk of cancer, cardiovascular disease, or dementia.[15][16] It may be taken by mouth or by injection.[9].........

,,Cancer
There are two approaches to the question of whether vitamin C has an impact on cancer. First, within the normal range of dietary intake without additional dietary supplementation, are people who consume more vitamin C at lower risk for developing cancer, and if so, does an orally consumed supplement have the same benefit? Second, for people diagnosed with cancer, will large amounts of ascorbic acid administered intravenously treat the cancer, reduce the adverse effects of other treatments, and so prolong survival and improve quality of life? A 2013 Cochrane review found no evidence that vitamin C supplementation reduces the risk of lung cancer in healthy people or those at high risk due to smoking or asbestos exposure.[41] A second meta-analysis found no effect on the risk of prostate cancer.[42] Two meta-analyses evaluated the effect of vitamin C supplementation on the risk of colorectal cancer. One found a weak association between vitamin C consumption and reduced risk, and the other found no effect from supplementation.[43][44] A 2011 meta-analysis failed to find support for the prevention of breast cancer with vitamin C supplementation,[45] but a second study concluded that vitamin C may be associated with increased survival in those already diagnosed.[46]
Under the rubric of orthomolecular medicine, "Intravenous vitamin C is a contentious adjunctive cancer therapy, widely used in naturopathic and integrative oncology settings." [47] With oral administration absorption efficiency decreases as amounts increase. Intravenous administration bypasses this.[48] Doing so makes it possible to achieve plasma concentrations of 5 to 10 millimoles/liter (mmol/L), which far exceed the approximately 0.2 mmol/L limit from oral consumption.[49] The theories of mechanism are contradictory. At high tissue concentrations ascorbic acid is described as acting as a pro-oxidant, generating hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) to kill tumor cells. The same literature claims that ascorbic acid acts as an antioxidant, thereby reducing the adverse effects of chemotherapy and radiation therapy.[47][48] Research continues in this field, but a 2014 review concluded: "Currently, the use of high-dose intravenous vitamin C [as an anticancer agent] cannot be recommended outside of a clinical trial."[50] A 2015 review added: "There is no high-quality evidence to suggest that ascorbate supplementation in cancer patients either enhances the antitumor effects of chemotherapy or reduces its toxicity. Evidence for ascorbate's anti-tumor effects was limited to case reports and observational and uncontrolled studies."[51]

Cardiovascular disease
There is no evidence as of 2017 that taking vitamin C decreases cardiovascular disease.[52] One 2013 review found no evidence that antioxidant vitamin supplementation reduces the risk of myocardial infarction, stroke, cardiovascular mortality, or all-cause mortality (it did not provide subset analysis for trials that just used vitamin C).[15] Another 2013 review found an association between higher circulating vitamin C levels or dietary vitamin C and a lower risk of stroke.[53]
A 2014 review found a positive effect of vitamin C on endothelial dysfunction when taken at doses greater than 500 mg per day. The endothelium is a layer of cells that line the interior surface of blood vessels.[54]

There is no evidence that taking Vitamin C supplementation has any affect on Peyroines Disease or its progression.  
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TonySa

Jan, we get it your anti-supplement, however there's studies that show efficacy as well as those that do not.  People should use what they believe will work for them-confidence and individualization in treatment are important factors as well.  Different strokes for different folks...
PxD 2 yrs 9/16.  Failed all treatment. 9/11/18: excision, grafting & implant Dr Karpman MtnView Ca, AMS CX 18cm + 3-1cm RTEs.
Pump failed.  2/11/20 Dr Karpman installed Titan 22cm +1cm RTE.

jan.schaller1958

Tony, people can use what they want but the article has a clear pro-vitamin C bent to it with no mention of contrary studies. My citation, which came from the English Wikipedia, was far more balanced in discussing the vitamin C matter.

I do agree with one of the statements in one of the citations in the pro vitamin C Artikel :

,,Peyronie's disease (Peyronies Disease) is a chronic inflammation of tunica albuginea of the corpora cavernosa that causes an inelastic plaque resulting in penis deformation. Although its etiology is not completely known, there is general consensus that Peyronies Disease is genetically transmitted and secondary to penile trauma".

That's what I've always said. The best evidence of the cause of Peyroines is genetic predisposition and secondary penile trauma (although many men have no recollection of penile trauma of any sort. I don't).

Plus, no one can explain the huge range of age at which Peyronies Disease arises. With a median age of 55-60, there's obviously a lot we don't know about Peyronies Disease. Why would it arise in a 22 year old in one person and 55 in another? To suggest vitamins have anything to do with this is obviously absurd. It's even more absurd to suggest that vitamin C offers any treatment benefit once Peyroines arises.

Plus the article states, "
It has been said that Peyronies Disease is similar to atherosclerotic issues of the penis. Applying the logic for the body to the penis may help."

If Peyroines were similar to atherosclerotic issues of the penis one would think everyone would have Erectile Dysfunction from Peyroines due to reduced blood flow in blood vessels in the penis, but that is often not the case. Yes, Peyronies Disease does cause ED. But, not necessarily in everyone, which means that issue is also not fully understood. I never had Erectile Dysfunction, but have cardiac artery disease, at least of small arteries around the heart. So are we to believe that a 22 year old has atherosclerotic issues in the penis only, but no where else in the body? How likely is that?  I think the likelihood is zero.  
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jan.schaller1958

,,Jan, we get it your anti-supplement, however there's studies that show efficacy as well as those that do not".


If the results can't be repeated they are worthless. I'm pro-Science and anti -pseudoscience. That's all. Did you know people advocated Vitamin C to treat HIV, and interferon? Did, you  believe that still because a few fools believed that in 1983? Get real.

 "People should use what they believe will work for them-confidence and individualization in treatment are important factors as well.  Different strokes for different folks." Did you say that in 1983 when AIDs was whipping out half of gay men like you? Why is Peyroines any different other than that Peyroines doesn't kill you?
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Holistic

Quote from: jan.schaller1958 on October 25, 2020, 08:58:39 PM
I do not find any of these claims convincing.

There is no evidence that taking Vitamin C supplementation has any affect on Peyroines Disease or its progression.

Thank you for the post! Everything needs a good balance. This post is not meant to be pro or con but to inform since I found posts of people not understanding what Vit C is or does. The main line is that if anything, Vit C is not toxic compared to allopathic medicine. Yes one can take too much at once and have diarrhea. But theres evidence that people can orally take up to 100g and be fine. This should at least provide a sense of security to those who may want to explore Vit C.  True there is no direct evidence that Vit C does anything to Peyronies Disease. Doubt there will be any medical science anytime soon. Maybe in Orthomolecular journals maybe. This is not meant to provide hope in Vitc being the one thing that does it all.

However, Everything in the post is backed by a legitimate study or source. Feel free to cruise the references i provided at the bottom of the original post. I myself am skeptical for supplements doing much in heavy cases. Especially for Peyronies Disease. I did supplements for a year with mega doses of Vit C orally and dont think it made much difference. Now Im taking a different route and doing Vit C with DMSO to transdermally deliver. I too go by evidence and science. and everything I do is researched first for safety and personal knowledge. And there is evidence that the properties of Vit C do have proven benefit at the molecular and biological level.

If youre looking for more evidence on Vit C and cancer, you may want to check out the "orthomolecular treatment of chronic disease" which is all evidence based trials and treatments.

Be well,

32 yo. Unknown cause. 1st plaque proximal left base near pelvis 9/19. Expanded and shrunk after 8 mo by 50% (still working on it). Minor bend but malleable. 2nd small plaque 5/20 superficial distal right just under tip. Currently growing. No bend.