Can an implant restore size? Or can lengthening surgeries be performed with it?

[Curbside]

My disease is progressing and I have severe Ed, size loss, and curvature. I'm wondering, is there anyway to restore lost size pre implant? if I have to get one, I'd like to begin doing that. Also, are there other surgeries that can be done with an implant to increase size, like lengthening procedures?

[tomas1]

I think if you can use a VED (vacuum device), you can restore lost size.
I'm not sure how that works with Peyronies, but it did work for me.

[TonySa]

Be sure to use traction (and maybe VED) to regain lost length before the implant.  With time the implant will also increase your size w daily cycling.  

[hope794]

Be sure to use traction (and maybe VED) to regain lost length before the implant.  With time the implant will also increase your size w daily cycling.

Hello TonySa, i've got a question: what do you mean with "implant will also increase your size w daily cycling"?

I mean, let's say that my flaccid stretched lenght is, for example, 15cm. I undergo an implant surgery and after the surgery my penis lenght is 14cm. Will the implant get me back to 15 with time? Or more? What about girth, is it the same as your stretched flaccid girth or it is "standard"?

Thank you really much

[TonySa]

It could very will get you that lost 1 cm and maybe more over a year.  Girth is dependent on which brand you have.  Coldoplast Titan cylinders are wider than AMS.  I believe you can gain girth with daily cycling as well especially if you lost girth due to Peyronies.

[samsung]

Is it dependent on your girth or the girth of the cylinder brand? Meaning does your penis have anything to do with it or is it just based on whatever the girth of the cylinders are?

[hope794]

TonySa, thank you for your reply. I'm sorry, but i didn't understand well your answer, probably because of my english which is not so perfect. Can you please explain better, with more details and examples?
Thank you really much bro.

Hope794

[Pfract]

curbside: there is plenty of diaries, stories, and even the tech link on my signature with information for you to read on everything implants. Please give the links a look and report back to us.

[TonySa]

Yes, you gain length and girth w implants.

[redbullmaster]

Guys can we stop giving out false information about implants increasing size after cycling.

In most causes men get implanted see there penis is smaller than before the implant.
Then after 6 months, a year they get back there original size.

Yes some men have gained length and girth, but I think this is the exception and not the rule,
it's not guaranteed.      

Traction and VED is the way to go before an implant to hopefully restore any lost size.
But again nothing is guaranteed and results can verily and in some cases it has made things worse for some men on here.

The only surgery is the sliding technique which can add size, but the risk is a loss of your penis.
Or if they cut the plaque to release the short side of your penis to restore  your size.  

[Pfract]

Guys can we stop giving out false information about implants increasing size after cycling.

In most causes men get implanted see there penis is smaller than before the implant.
Then after 6 months, a year they get back there original size.

Yes some men have gained length and girth, but I think this is the exception and not the rule,
it's not guaranteed.      

Traction and VED is the way to go before an implant to hopefully restore any lost size.
But again nothing is guaranteed and results can verily and in some cases it has made things worse for some men on here.

The only surgery is the sliding technique which can add size, but the risk is a loss of your penis.
Or if they cut the plaque to release the short side of your penis to restore  your size.  

Redbullmaster: I disagree with you. I understand what you are  saying, and i add that what we needed the most and we are lacking immensely is visual proof of said size increase after cycling. By this, i mean implantees taking pictures of their penises with rulers by the side, and gradually documenting the process throughout the year, with the same ruler, in the same place and angle.

I ask you kindly, if you can back up your claims? For the sake of transparency and argument backing?  For example... traction and vacuum can be used post implant therapy to regain size too, but few people talk about it unfortunately. Even with my attempts to bring it up in conversations.
I am not attacking you here, but just saying that a lot of the times people state things but it's hear say based on posts they read, from users that didn't understood their condition fully and did no research on it even.  Further worsening the problem.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21091884

[redbullmaster]

Most of my information is from FT, where if you read though the implant forum, most members report a loss of size after surgery. But regain the pre implant size normally from 6 months up to a year later. The more aggressively you cycle the implant the quicker the size comes back.

Merrix says he got more size back and if you want to know about implant surgery, his is a must read journey.
There's few others but not many who clam size increase of time.

But every penis is different and some will respond differently than others im guessing.

I've had an implant a couple of years ago, settled about 7inchs, not measured it lately as its an unhealthy hobby to obsess over penis size. Which I have been more than guilty off over the years, i will remeasure in the next couple of days to check size.

"traction and vacuum can be used post implant therapy to regain size too"
I have heard of this and even i did it myself, you do get a bigger penis straight after using one as the head is fully enlarged and more girth.

I didn't keep it up as I was in a dark place and chucked all my equipment and didn't want it found if I did something permeant.
So know idea if it would work or not, but remember you may shorting the life of your implant by using it. or even break it, if your not careful.

But we were talking about cycling the implant on its own not causing it to get bigger, using a VED is a different subject.
One I'm open to and think makes sense, may work better with a AMS than a Titan, as the AMS is more built to grow  

Also if we had a medical study, where patients are measured before an implant after an implant and up to 5 years later we would have a clearer picture of the results. So I do agree with you on this point

[TonySa]

Red, if you're referring to my comment above yours-scroll up and read all the thread.  I was summarizing my earlier statement that there is increase in length and girth w daily cycling.  The OP is not English speaking and he asked again so I simplified the response.  Both studies and men's experience all confirm gains in size w regular cycling for both AMS and coloplast.

[redbullmaster]

Hi Tony,

"I was summarizing my earlier statement that there is increase in length and girth w daily cycling."

I said this as well, but not above their starting size.

Most men report, lets say there penis is 6inch before surgery, after surgery there penis is 5.3 inch's.
With Cycling they can get back to the 6inch penis, but that's it, they stop there.

"Both studies and men's experience all confirm gains in size w regular cycling for both AMS and coloplast."
Please link
   

[Pfract]

Most of my information is from FT, where if you read though the implant forum, most members report a loss of size after surgery. But regain the pre implant size normally from 6 months up to a year later. The more aggressively you cycle the implant the quicker the size comes back. Merrix says he got more size back and if you want to know about implant surgery, his is a must read journey.
There's few others but not many who clam size increase of time.

Exactly what i said about hear say and people not researching their condition. Whilst there are definitely members there that share about their procedure, situation and measurements you have others that the only thing they do is share a story and nothing more. What good of a picture does that give you? what kind of proof do you have about it? How to know that the gains are really substantiable?
    Years ago he posted pictures of his result. His erection angle is amazing, flaccid state super natural indeed. But he hasn't posted that many more aside from a few others during all this time. He is also militant to the extreme on Dr. Eid's work. And whilst i am all in for going to Dr. Kramer/Eid, i do question his motives sometime. When i say i really am, i mean it. I've also been following his diary and story even before his diary... So heading back to 2014. All this to say exactly what: "a lot of words, claims, hearsay, barely any proof from members on: "i got 1 cm back on my penis, here's photos to back it up".

I've had an implant a couple of years ago, settled about 7inchs, not measured it lately as its an unhealthy hobby to obsess over penis size. Which I have been more than guilty off over the years, i will remeasure in the next couple of days to check size.

Aren't we all guilty of that tho? as long as you are able to live your life normally and are not pestering urologists on the daily about your penile size and what you can do to make it bigger, than i wouldn't think it's a bad thing what you mentioned.

"traction and vacuum can be used post implant therapy to regain size too"
I have heard of this and even i did it myself, you do get a bigger penis straight after using one as the head is fully enlarged and more girth. I didn't keep it up as I was in a dark place and chucked all my equipment and didn't want it found if I did something permeant.
So know idea if it would work or not, but remember you may shorting the life of your implant by using it. or even break it, if your not careful.
But we were talking about cycling the implant on its own not causing it to get bigger, using a VED is a different subject.
One I'm open to and think makes sense, may work better with a AMS than a Titan, as the AMS is more built to grow  

I am a bit sad that i just posted the article and the impression i get is you didn't read it.

Also if we had a medical study, where patients are measured before an implant after an implant and up to 5 years later we would have a clearer picture of the results. So I do agree with you on this point

We do, and i am trying to locate it on pubmed as well. Should of saved them either in a bookmark folder on my browser, on download the papers and save them on my computer for later reference. I admit i failed at that and i am trying to do different now, as it is of great value in discussions like these.

[redbullmaster]

Hi Pfact,



FT is the best resource we have at the moment, I was just pointing out one clam on there. its up to people to reach there own conclusions, from there own research. I've made it clear I'm in the camp that most men wont get bigger than before the implant.

 "I am a bit sad that i just posted the article and the impression I get is you didn't read it."

I read it and even said I'm open to the idea, but its one report and nothing to do with cycling the implant which is where we need a study conducted.
I look forward to reading yours, once you find it
 
For this idea to work you will need a revision surgery to fit a bigger implant.
Depending on age of the patient, plus if the implant breaks early, how many revision surgery's do you want to have.
As each one increases risks like infection and penis numbness from near damage from the surgery.

So having an extra revision isn't practical or a good idea for most men.

Maybe using a VED so though out the life of the implant, it will increase and your next implant will be a bigger size and I see the appeal of doing it.
But you still waiting 12 years or longer before you see results.

[Pfract]

FT is the best resource we have at the moment, I was just pointing out one clam on there. its up to people to reach there own conclusions, from there own research. I've made it clear I'm in the camp that most men wont get bigger than before the implant.

Hoping that people will reach "their own conclusions" is not the best of things we can hope for. A lot of info on FT is regurgitated without any validation whatsoever. A LOT of dubious claims too. Remeber  donnies magical penile stretching routine? where is he now?

I read it and even said I'm open to the idea, but its one report and nothing to do with cycling the implant which is where we need a study conducted.
I look forward to reading yours, once you find it

Not the pdf i was looking for, but i found something super recent and much better. Have a look: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7108986/

Trends in operative management

Interestingly, the measured length of penile corpora and implant length shows a trend towards slight but significant increase over time. These findings were obtained from manufacturer data so causality cannot be inferred; whether this represents (ranked of in order of decreasing likelihood based on our collective opinion) a trend towards more aggressive sizing on the part of surgeons, a trend towards greater desire for implants among patients with larger phallus size, or a shift in population penis size over a very short interval of time is unclear (18). Regardless of cause, there is obviously an upward limit on the size of implant that can be placed without major risk, so we do not foresee this as a trend that will continue indefinitely.

For this idea to work you will need a revision surgery to fit a bigger implant.
Depending on age of the patient, plus if the implant breaks early, how many revision surgery's do you want to have.
As each one increases risks like infection and penis numbness from near damage from the surgery.

Risk of infection yes, does increase with greater amount of revisions exponentially. Is it because of the procedure itself, surgeon, or something else? not sure. But nerver damage? haven't seen any information on that. Care to Share?

So having an extra revision isn't practical or a good idea for most men.

It's something unavoidable, especially for young patients. As we have younger and younger ones, it will be interesting to see how they will fare in the long run. Assuming they share their diaries. Speaking of those, i have been following some implantees for 5 years now.

Maybe using a VED so though out the life of the implant, it will increase and your next implant will be a bigger size and I see the appeal of doing it.
But you still waiting 12 years or longer before you see results.

Where have you came up with the 12 years? As above... cycling regularly your implant will lead to a bigger one being installed in your next revision. I remember reading yet another paper, were the discussion as to why this happened was they where unsure. Even in cases like the Titan and the CX which don't expand in length mechanically like the LGX. Doctors are thinking it's the internal pressure on the penis the implant causes that causes the growth, or the crus that gets "worn out".... in the perinium area... Will try to find that .pdf if i don't forget about it.

Anyway, i'm loving the discussion and i would love it to go on!

[redbullmaster]

Hoping that people will reach "their own conclusions" is not the best of things we can hope for. A lot of info on FT is regurgitated without any validation whatsoever. A LOT of dubious claims too. Remeber  donnies magical penile stretching routine? where is he now?

Not the pdf i was looking for, but i found something super recent and much better. Have a look: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7108986/

Unfortunately we read things and ignore the bits we don't like and believe the things we want to hear.
You study is a case in point, if you researched the cross reference points of the paper https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26475275
your see there is no useful information, the bit of about increasing implanted cylinder sizes tells us nothing useful

Your study is like a uni paper, someone research other papers over the last 45 years and put it in a report.
Its the same as on FT or this forum, we need to take responsibility as adults and not just blindly accept things we read as fact.  

Risk of infection yes, does increase with greater amount of revisions exponentially. Is it because of the procedure itself, surgeon, or something else? not sure. But nerver damage? haven't seen any information on that. Care to Share?

This is based on reading that the more revisions you have the more likely to lose sensation in your penis due to the operations.
Like you I've been reading about this for a long time and don't have to hand all I've read over the years.
I rather this not be true so if I'm misinformed on this, I'm happy to be wrong.  

Where have you came up with the 12 years? As above... cycling regularly your implant will lead to a bigger one being installed in your next revision. I remember reading yet another paper, were the discussion as to why this happened was they where unsure. Even in cases like the Titan and the CX which don't expand in length mechanically like the LGX. Doctors are thinking it's the internal pressure on the penis the implant causes that causes the growth, or the crus that gets "worn out".... in the perinium area... Will try to find that .pdf if i don't forget about it.

https://www.urologicalcare.com/penile-implants-prosthesis/life-expectancy-of-penile-implants/
I took the average to be 12 years from that, but I've seen up to 20 years as well.

Anyway, i'm loving the discussion and i would love it to go on!

Me too I like a good debate,  

[TonySa]

Hi Red, you can find those studies in the implant section of the forum.

[Pfract]

Unfortunately we read things and ignore the bits we don't like and believe the things we want to hear.
You study is a case in point, if you researched the cross reference points of the paper https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26475275
your see there is no useful information, the bit of about increasing implanted cylinder sizes tells us nothing useful

Your study is like a uni paper, someone research other papers over the last 45 years and put it in a report.
Its the same as on FT or this forum, we need to take responsibility as adults and not just blindly accept things we read as fact.  

This paper i posted was co-authored by none other than Tom F. Lue, which i presume you know is very well known in the field and this board as well. Whilst it definitely does not give you details, there are papers out there that do atest to daily cycling leading towards your penis getting bigger somewhat. Unfortunately, and i don't understand why, there aren't any pictures on said study. To me that is the only fault.

Here is the link to a paper that has more info: Patient satisfaction and penile morphology changes with postoperative penile rehabilitation 2 years after Coloplast Titan prosthesis | https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5000799/

This is based on reading that the more revisions you have the more likely to lose sensation in your penis due to the operations.
Like you I've been reading about this for a long time and don't have to hand all I've read over the years.
I rather this not be true so if I'm misinformed on this, I'm happy to be wrong.  

I do have to really try and find that paper. I don't know if it was from Dr. Kramer, but yes, i have a fairly good impression that the only thing one is risking is the infection. At least on the peno-scrotal method. Other than that, what numbness are you supposed to feel? provided all your operations go well? the implanted is inserted through the scrotum and closed back up again. As for the infra-pubic method, the cut does go where the neuro-vascular bundle is, so i believe so that you would be at increased risk for numbness, which is actually a risk since the first surgery to begin with, for that particular method. But then again, i want to to read the paper to be sure.

https://www.urologicalcare.com/penile-implants-prosthesis/life-expectancy-of-penile-implants/
I took the average to be 12 years from that, but I've seen up to 20 years as well.
Me too I like a good debate,

I accept those numbers, but for me... i'd say they are more suitable to the older population that don't have sex that frequently compared to younger implantees. I don't know if it's my bias or actually the case, but on FT you do see more of the younger guys needing revisions and their implants failing before that amount of time. Not all of course but... Like those Titan tubes breaking, and the leaks, and the pump malfunctions and whatnot.

I took the liberty of editing your post, so the quotes are displayed right. Hope you don't mind.

[Larry]

My length more than doubled and I gained an inch with my implant.

Larry

[Pfract]

This paper i posted was co-authored by none other than Tom F. Lue, which i presume you know is very well known in the field and this board as well. Whilst it definitely does not give you details, there are papers out there that do atest to daily cycling leading towards your penis getting bigger somewhat. Unfortunately, and i don't understand why, there aren't any pictures on said study. To me that is the only fault.

My point was all Tom F. Lue did, was read a bunch of other people's papers and then write a paper on their research.
Same as us on here, we read things and then reach are own conclusions

You can't even compare both. We rear information here that whilst i consider it to be important and somewhat valid it has to be taken into consideration that it's shared by users themselves, most of the time with no data to back it up. This is why for years, i have been defending that a lot of the claims sometimes done in this board should either be backed up with evidence (photos with name tag somewhere on the side), or deleted/tagged (dubious) outright. Example: "i sat at home, quit my job, and did traction for 8 hours a day and now i am cured" or "my amazing pill/stretching combo made me gain 3 meters in penile size". Is it so? then share proof with others, so you can encourage and reassure others as we all strive to follow proper treatments here.

Even though it's a paper on other medical papers, at least it aggregates the best data and the consensus on said subject. And allows you to put things into perspective on current state of affairs, from Doctors who actually treat Erectile Dysfunction/peyronies.

Here is the link to a paper that has more info: Patient satisfaction and penile morphology changes with postoperative penile rehabilitation 2 years after Coloplast Titan prosthesis | https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5000799/

"perceived penile length that was longer"
This is one of the lines in the above paper, which is irrelevant to true data

From this side if feels that you are cherry picking points now. Because, in my understanding, that part of the text is related to "patients complaining that their penis is smaller, whilst in reality they have maintained or actually gained size". As the table so confirms.

"This study confirms with extended follow-up of our initial study the use of the Coloplast Titan cylinder, combined with optimization of cylinder length, and daily inflation for 2 years postoperation, results in patient satisfaction with penile length and girth of the implanted erect penis. Penile measurements before, at the time of surgery, 1 year, and 2 years later suggest this regimen can maintain or even increase girth and length when compared to the patient's immediate postoperative measurements."

Sorry your study supports what I've been saying, increased postoperative measurements.
Cant find the preoperative measurements and that table has been writing to be unreadable.
As I can't find a chart to see what n s.d. P mean. if you could decipher what it means for me, that be great?

And what would be the issue with only having post op measurements if those attest to the implant's capabilities of making you gain penile size with inflation through cycling post IPP surgery in a time frame of two years? That chart tells you the several areas where they measured the penis on, and the size difference VS time. Do you really need to know the size the penis was before vs the gains in cm's the patient had? given that this was measured in office with proper methods and not somebody on the internet bragging about their size?

As for pre-op gains, we have that martin Dineen paper on "vacuum therapy pre-op for 6 weeks stretches the penis" to share insight on that. I take it you are familiar with that paper?

Not a jab but, you not being able to read the table does not mean it does not have valid data on it.

I do have to really try and find that paper. I don't know if it was from Dr. Kramer, but yes, i have a fairly good impression that the only thing one is risking is the infection. At least on the peno-scrotal method. Other than that, what numbness are you supposed to feel? provided all your operations go well? the implanted is inserted through the scrotum and closed back up again. As for the infra-pubic method, the cut does go where the neuro-vascular bundle is, so i believe so that you would be at increased risk for numbness, which is actually a risk since the first surgery to begin with, for that particular method. But then again, i want to to read the paper to be sure.

I Have to do more research, you may be right on this, but my point remains, less operations is better than more revisions. As who want's to keep going to have there implant replaced every 5 years or less.

This i agree, but what are younger patients to do? Be around 30yo and deal with a couple of revisions to the rest of your life? or enjoy a soft penis till you are 50-55 or 60 and then have the implant, for fear of the revisions? I get your point but...

My length more than doubled and I gained an inch with my implant.

Larry

See what i was talking about redbullmaster? i don't doubt that Larry has had some size gain from his implant. I read his story and i take it the chances are high  you did so too. But, he drops by on the board, writes this post and users are left to wonder. Is it true? Where is his photo with penile measurements or some other type of before or after pics? How much in size has he actually gained since his ipp? what about his daily inflation? how much of this is he just recovering his previous non-Erectile Dysfunction/non-bionic size? Is it actually a size gain, or a size recover?  

[Larry]

Will the implant get me back to 15 with time? Or more? What about girth, is it the same as your stretched flaccid girth or it is "standard"?

With daily cycling twice a day, every day and VED once a day every day, both for 30 minutes (VED and implant at same time) both for 30 minutes, I more than doubled my length and gained about an inch in girth.  Photographic proof is on here somewhere but if you send me your email address, I will send it to you.

Larry


#edited: to correct the quote being wrongly used.

[samsung]

Maybe I'm missing the point but I gotta agree with pfract here, pictures or it didn't happen. This forum is basically a bunch of useless nonsense without data and evidence. Even then it is still largely a bunch of b.s. anyway. Treatments offered here don't work. And if they do, great. Show me pics or you are a liar.  

[redbullmaster]

Hi Pfact,

I know you hold Tom F. Lue in high regard,but my point is I could have written that paper.
Its not his research,he just read other papers and wrote a report.

My point is when I research my issues over the years, I listen to people on here and on other boards.
Listen to doctors and do research online with different medical papers and reach my own conclusions.

I'm not always right and have been wrong and spent money on doctors from advice from on here.
Unfortunately I have found that there's not one rule for all of us. We could all go to the same surgeon and all come out with different results.

From this side if feels that you are cherry picking points now. Because, in my understanding, that part of the text is related to "patients complaining that their penis is smaller, whilst in reality they have maintained or actually gained size". As the table so confirms.

Without a pre measurement in the table I can't take it seriously.

And what would be the issue with only having post op measurements if those attest to the implant's capabilities of making you gain penile size with inflation through cycling post IPP surgery in a time frame of two years? That chart tells you the several areas where they measured the penis on, and the size difference VS time. Do you really need to know the size the penis was before vs the gains in cm's the patient had? given that this was measured in office with proper methods and not somebody on the internet bragging about their size?

Because it only relates to how much its grown post op, If after surgery the penis is 5.5 inch's
Then two years later it's 6'5, that looks good, but if pre op it was 6.4 0r 7.5 then its a different story.

As for pre-op gains, we have that martin Dineen paper on "vacuum therapy pre-op for 6 weeks stretches the penis" to share insight on that. I take it you are familiar with that paper?

This have been well known that VED is good to restore damaged penis and help with size.
But before my Sliding technique surgery I was 7.8 in a VED, my penis is only 7 inch's now.
So how much size did it add? was doing it a lot longer then 6 weeks too.

but, you not being able to read the table does not mean it does not have valid data on it.

Also can you read the table,as it makes no sense to me?
Please if you can, can you tell me how to read it for my education?

See what i was talking about redbullmaster? i don't doubt that Larry has had some size gain from his implant. I read his story and i take it the chances are high  you did so too. But, he drops by on the board, writes this post and users are left to wonder. Is it true? Where is his photo with penile measurements or some other type of before or after pics? How much in size has he actually gained since his ipp? what about his daily inflation? how much of this is he just recovering his previous non-Erectile Dysfunction/non-bionic size? Is it actually a size gain, or a size recover?

I agree it's hard to take anyone word without pictures, but not every man is willing to post them.
Maybe those who have the courage to do so, will start doing it with bone pressed measurements and in a couple of years we have a better picture

[TonySa]

I really don't get the point of all this back and forth trying to prove something...

[samsung]

I won't budge into the rest of the content of this particular post because that isnt why I interrupted. I only said what I said to make the point that everyone on this forum says a whole lot about VED, traction, diet, fasting, etc. with zero proof of its efficacy. PROVE that eating sugar causes peyronie's. PROVE doing traction straightens your dick. Pictures. Before and after. Or it is all a conspiracy theory forum. Worthless. The only thing I see so far that straightens a penis is an implant or surgery because I have seen pictures. All other treatments personally have done little for me. Arginine and cialis helped with rigidity and maybe traction added some length (or maybe it was the cialis). But I have photos and proof. And a measurement journal. If you say fasting helped you, great. I don't believe (person X) though and neither should anyone else.  

[redbullmaster]

My whole point was about trying to keep to facts, that from everything I read and seen. That cycling of the implant won't make you have a bigger penis in two years time.

I've seen posts from some members on FT who say theirs have got bigger, but not much proof of it.

Trying to keep expectations realistic to the out come of this type of surgery.

I'm happy to be proven wrong, as I have an implant, so would love to wake up and be x amount bigger after aggressive cycling.



 

[Pfract]

I really don't get the point of all this back and forth trying to prove something...

Tony... The point is to spur debate, and argumentative discussions on the topic Samsung created. And i really commend Redbullmaster's effort here. He is actively engaging on the conversation in a non-offensive way and generally either he is backing his data or making very good points. And i wish a lot more people were like this. It's better from everybody than just lurking. But that requires effort.

Maybe I'm missing the point but I gotta agree with pfract here, pictures or it didn't happen. This forum is basically a bunch of useless nonsense without data and evidence. Even then it is still largely a bunch of b.s. anyway. Treatments offered here don't work. And if they do, great. Show me pics or you are a liar.

My take on this is that you are on the offensive side with your comment, and for all effects, you are still here and have been for some time and also done a variety of treatments and things and have not posted much visual evidence either. If you feel it's that much of a BS, why not actively combat that yourself? do different and give the example?

Hi Pfact,

I know you hold Tom F. Lue in high regard,but my point is I could have written that paper. Its not his research,he just read other papers and wrote a report. My point is when I research my issues over the years, I listen to people on here and on other boards. Listen to doctors and do research online with different medical papers and reach my own conclusions. I'm not always right and have been wrong and spent money on doctors from advice from on here. Unfortunately I have found that there's not one rule for all of us. We could all go to the same surgeon and all come out with different results.

It's not just me Redbullmaster. He is been around for ages; authored many papers, co-authored some more and for all effects has an open office and treats patients for this. No matter how much your bias agains't him is, because of failed treatments or unexpected outcomes you may have had before with certain doctors, it does not make him less knowledgeable on this. And what he did was a compilation of current trends and what maybe in store. Does not make it less valid in any way. Even if you say he didn't wrote any of that, look at how many medical papers are in the references? You can't ignore that.

In this manuscript we speculate on the future of penile implants, based in large part on the historical perspective and recent developments in the implant surgery space. We include recommendations on future technical innovations, post-operative management, and novel implant designs that may revolutionize the future management of Erectile Dysfunction

Without a pre measurement in the table I can't take it seriously.

I can't for the life of me believe this. You have patients that had an implant installed. In this case, they measured 15 guys. It says in the paper. And in two years, they measured their penis actually getting bigger. Regardless of how much they were before surgery, they gained some size with their implant in two years. But because the paper doesn't say how much they where pre-op, the data has no validity to you. Almost as if their length gains are not valid because you don't find it credible enough. Seriously?

Because it only relates to how much its grown post op, If after surgery the penis is 5.5 inch's
Then two years later it's 6'5, that looks good, but if pre op it was 6.4 0r 7.5 then its a different story.

It amazes me that i read this coming from you. Especially considering you have an implant. I take it you knew that if an implant is properly sized to you, (let's use a titan in this case) with dog ears when flaccid, that then you are the same size as before surgery once all the swelling goes down and you cycle it for a few weeks... There have been plenty of documented journals on FT with pictures, with guys taking photos of their penis with rulers on the side before surgery and after surgery. Attesting to "you are not going to loose surgery if you choose a good surgeon". Even in this very board we are, there are implant diaries with  pictures of before and after! The example you are using there, the person would be undersized and it would have a floppy glans. Cases of that have been seen on FT too...

This have been well known that VED is good to restore damaged penis and help with size.
But before my Sliding technique surgery I was 7.8 in a VED, my penis is only 7 inch's now.
So how much size did it add? was doing it a lot longer then 6 weeks too.

You should know that the stretched length inside the tube does not correspond to your real length, unfortunately. Can you gain size by vacuum pre-op? i believe so.. https://file.scirp.org/pdf/ASM_2013012514045982.pdf

ABSTRACT Introduction:  The  inflatable  penile  prosthesis  (IPP)  has  been  used  to  treat  erectile  dysfunction  for  40  years.  Loss  of  penile length following IPP remains the single biggest patient complaint. We describe a preoperative and postoperative patient  preparation  protocol  to  assist  in  setting  realistic  patient  expectations  and  decreasing  the  complaint  of  reduced  penile length. Materials & Methods: 750 Patients are instructed to use a vacuum erection device for 10 minutes each day  for  up  to  2  months  prior  to  IPP  implant.  After  two  months,  maximization  of  cylinder  length  is  accomplished  re-  gardless of IPP manufacturer. Cylinders are left partially inflated in the post-operative period and daily inflation for 3 months immediately upon patient tolerance. The average implanted cylinder length has increased dramatically with the preoperative vacuum usage when compared to the authors' previous implantations and when compared to the national average  of  implanted  cylinders  obtained  from  one  manufacturer.  Results:  Preoperative  use  of  the  vacuum  device  has  allowed  maximization  of  cylinder  length.  After  the  vacuum  program,  patients  tend  to  experience  less  pain  following  implantation  allowing  earlier  device  instruction  cycling  and  use.  The  average  implanted  cylinder  length  continued  to  increase annually for the first 5 years as the protocol evolved and seems to have remained stable for the last five years. Conclusions:  Preoperative  vacuum  usage  and  postoperative  capsule  management  has  nearly  eliminated  patient  com-  plaints  of  reduced  penile  length.  We  believe  this  to  be  the  result  of  larger  size  cylinders  being  implanted  when  com-  pared to our previous implantations absent of the patient participation protocol.

Coloplast  one  of  the  two  American  manufacturers  of  IPP  devices  indicate  that  the  national  "average"  cylinder  length  implanted in the United States increased in 2002-2007 from 18.1 cm to 18.7 cm. Today in our practice we average 22 cm.  amongst  the  patients  employing  the  vacuum  proto-  col.

There is device manufacturer statistics on penile implant size. Contradicting even further your "there is no data!" even more.

Also can you read the table,as it makes no sense to me?
Please if you can, can you tell me how to read it for my education?

Search online for How to understand statistically information on tables, in research papers. Look for "statistics".

I agree it's hard to take anyone word without pictures, but not every man is willing to post them.
Maybe those who have the courage to do so, will start doing it with bone pressed measurements and in a couple of years we have a better picture

This is part of a greater problem. I don't even know if i should reply to it here, or split into a new topic. But i add: Where were the pictures of your journey? ...

[redbullmaster]

It's not just me Redbullmaster. He is been around for ages; authored many papers, co-authored some more and for all effects has an open office and treats patients for this. No matter how much your bias agains't him is, because of failed treatments or unexpected outcomes you may have had before with certain doctors, it does not make him less knowledgeable on this. And what he did was a compilation of current trends and what maybe in store. Does not make it less valid in any way. Even if you say he didn't wrote any of that, look at how many medical papers are in the references? You can't ignore that.

My point was after reading his medical papers, they didn't contain any proof to cycling making the penis bigger after time. That's why I dismissed his paper, because he used anecdotal evidence to support his paper.

I can't for the life of me believe this. You have patients that had an implant installed. In this case, they measured 15 guys. It says in the paper. And in two years, they measured their penis actually getting bigger. Regardless of how much they were before surgery, they gained some size with their implant in two years. But because the paper doesn't say how much they where pre-op, the data has no validity to you. Almost as if their length gains are not valid because you don't find it credible enough. Seriously?

But there was 40 men in the study, why only measure 15?

I think a baseline is very important in a trail.

If we too believe the clams without photographical evidence for proof.

We need to know how much above pre-op this aggressive cycling improves the length and girth of the penis.
If the average after two years of cycling is .1cm bigger its not worth it for most men to bother to do this routine.

But if it's .5 or 1inch bigger, then most of us would want to do the routine.
We need to know if the gains are worth the work to reward aspect.  
 

It amazes me that i read this coming from you. Especially considering you have an implant. I take it you knew that if an implant is properly sized to you, (let's use a titan in this case) with dog ears when flaccid, that then you are the same size as before surgery once all the swelling goes down and you cycle it for a few weeks... There have been plenty of documented journals on FT with pictures, with guys taking photos of their penis with rulers on the side before surgery and after surgery. Attesting to "you are not going to loose surgery if you choose a good surgeon". Even in this very board we are, there are implant diaries with  pictures of before and after! The example you are using there, the person would be undersized and it would have a floppy glans. Cases of that have been seen on FT too...

This has been my whole point from the start, I believe this to be true. I'm not arguing this point at all.

I was referring to the paper saying aggressive cycling can increase the length above your natural size

You should know that the stretched length inside the tube does not correspond to your real length, unfortunately. Can you gain size by vacuum pre-op? i believe so.. https://file.scirp.org/pdf/ASM_2013012514045982.pdf
There is device manufacturer statistics on penile implant size. Contradicting even further your "there is no data!" even more.

Sorry I didn't add enough information to make my point.
Using a VED and traction device I got my penis up to 7.8 in the tube from 7.3 after about 1 year.
But I didn't see that size make my penis any bigger in length with a implant.
What I did get was more girth to over 6inches at the base, but drops to 4.5 near the head.

So I do think it's possible to gain size, but think it will take most men 3 to 4 years of constantly doing it, to get good results.

ABSTRACT Introduction:  The  inflatable  penile  prosthesis  (IPP)  has  been  used  to  treat  erectile  dysfunction  for  40  years.  Loss  of  penile length following IPP remains the single biggest patient complaint. We describe a preoperative and postoperative patient  preparation  protocol  to  assist  in  setting  realistic  patient  expectations  and  decreasing  the  complaint  of  reduced  penile length. Materials & Methods: 750 Patients are instructed to use a vacuum erection device for 10 minutes each day  for  up  to  2  months  prior  to  IPP  implant.  After  two  months,  maximization  of  cylinder  length  is  accomplished  re-  gardless of IPP manufacturer. Cylinders are left partially inflated in the post-operative period and daily inflation for 3 months immediately upon patient tolerance. The average implanted cylinder length has increased dramatically with the preoperative vacuum usage when compared to the authors' previous implantations and when compared to the national average  of  implanted  cylinders  obtained  from  one  manufacturer.  Results:  Preoperative  use  of  the  vacuum  device  has  allowed  maximization  of  cylinder  length.  After  the  vacuum  program,  patients  tend  to  experience  less  pain  following  implantation  allowing  earlier  device  instruction  cycling  and  use.  The  average  implanted  cylinder  length  continued  to  increase annually for the first 5 years as the protocol evolved and seems to have remained stable for the last five years. Conclusions:  Preoperative  vacuum  usage  and  postoperative  capsule  management  has  nearly  eliminated  patient  com-  plaints  of  reduced  penile  length.  We  believe  this  to  be  the  result  of  larger  size  cylinders  being  implanted  when  com-  pared to our previous implantations absent of the patient participation protocol.

Coloplast  one  of  the  two  American  manufacturers  of  IPP  devices  indicate  that  the  national  "average"  cylinder  length  implanted in the United States increased in 2002-2007 from 18.1 cm to 18.7 cm. Today in our practice we average 22 cm.  amongst  the  patients  employing  the  vacuum  proto-  col.

VED in most cases is about restoring length loss from Erectile Dysfunction issues, Peyronies and size loss from prostate surgery's. Not adding more size to the penis natural size, just not possible to add much or any more size in just two months of use. Think 6 months would be the min needed to start to add size with a VED, but much longer with traction to get real benefits.

 

Search online for How to understand statistically information on tables, in research papers. Look for "statistics".

It was the paper you used as your proof, so was hoping you could read it and understand the table and pass that information onto me. Hopefully you understand it fully as it's part of your proof.

As the sceptic part of me wonders if the paper was commissioned by Coloplast or was an independent study.

This is part of a greater problem. I don't even know if i should reply to it here, or split into a new topic. But i add: Where were the pictures of your journey? ...

I have no interest of putting my penis on the internet, even if it would help other men.
Also not making any claims that proof is needed to be seen to back up those claims.
Maybe its selfish not to post, maybe I will post one day, but not sure the benefits of me doing so.

[Pfract]

But there was 40 men in the study, why only measure 15?

The more, the better? I agree. Does it make it less valuable? No. Still valid for all accounts.

I think a baseline is very important in a trail.

We do have. Again.... manufacturer data from several years, that show average implant sizes have been going up. What better proof do you want than this?

If we too believe the clams without photographical evidence for proof.

Are you suggesting that these doctors fabricated the data to pretend cycling for two years your implant will allow you to gain size? Motivation being?

We need to know how much above pre-op this aggressive cycling improves the length and girth of the penis.
If the average after two years of cycling is .1cm bigger its not worth it for most men to bother to do this routine.
But if it's .5 or 1inch bigger, then most of us would want to do the routine.
We need to know if the gains are worth the work to reward aspect.  
 

Why do you get to decide it is not worth it for most men to follow this routine? The purpose of this is to inform that there are gains to be had, regardless of the reason, given that apparently doctors are not sure yet, why it happens. And then, it's up to each individual person to proceed or not with this. Or it should be.

So I do think it's possible to gain size, but think it will take most men 3 to 4 years of constantly doing it, to get good results.

VED in most cases is about restoring length loss from Erectile Dysfunction issues, Peyronies and size loss from prostate surgery's. Not adding more size to the penis natural size, just not possible to add much or any more size in just two months of use. Think 6 months would be the min needed to start to add size with a VED, but much longer with traction to get real benefits.

This is one of the main reasons why i advocate so much for people to share proof of their claims. That and to keep track of it. On the other hand, it is a job that somebody could do, other than the user. But it takes time and effort, to index all of that information.  

As the sceptic part of me wonders if the paper was commissioned by Coloplast or was an independent study.

Normally on pubmed, and on these papers, they state if they have conflicts of interest or not. I could not see that info on this paper unfortunately. Regardless of the conflict of interest that there maybe, the data is still valid. It is generally accepted that once you go for a revision surgery later, you will have a bigger implant. Again... manufacturer data on all the implants USA-wide....

I have no interest of putting my penis on the internet, even if it would help other men.
Also not making any claims that proof is needed to be seen to back up those claims.
Maybe its selfish not to post, maybe I will post one day, but not sure the benefits of me doing so.

I think the last part of your post speaks for itself. Everybody want's to see pictures and proof, but nobody wants to contribute further worsening the vicious cycle. I really don't see whats the problem in somebody sharing a non identifying picture of your penis online. Nobody would ever knew it would be you. I also understand there has to be a middle ground on this.Respecting privacy concerns whilst doing good to the community. In the long run, it would be of great benefit. Examples on this very community:

-showing guys with bad peyronies and ED that an implant can be an excellent solution for their case, once they get over the fact that they will have to get an IPP
-showing that you could solve indentation and bad curvatures and also regain your pre-peyronies size, even if your penis doesn't get bigger.
-show that the gains are in fact true, by periodically taking pictures of your penis and keeping a journal. And sharing your doctor also.

In the end, more people go to said Dr. More people get proper care and are satisfied with their result. Said Dr. treats more cases and gets more experience and so on. Everybody benefits. Reflect on this....  

[redbullmaster]

We do have. Again.... manufacturer data from several years, that show average implant sizes have been going up. What better proof do you want than this?

From reading FT most men are doing VED because of sites like FT and this one.
Not because doctors are suggesting VED as a pre-op work out.
Might just be more men with bigger penis's are getting implanted.
Or better surgical technique, for fitting the right implant.

Are you suggesting that these doctors fabricated the data to pretend cycling for two years your implant will allow you to gain size? Motivation being?

This isn't uncommon for governments, company's, court cases to pay for expert scientific or medical advice.
Which always supports their clams, then other experts turn up and then dispute it.

Why do you get to decide it is not worth it for most men to follow this routine? The purpose of this is to inform that there are gains to be had, regardless of the reason, given that apparently doctors are not sure yet, why it happens. And then, it's up to each individual person to proceed or not with this. Or it should be.

I didn't say it's up to me, I agree it's up to each individual person to proceed as they wish.
But if we knew say 40% got .5 bigger 50% stayed the same and 10% got 1 inch bigger.
Then men could make informed decisions if they wanted to do this treatment for two years.

But if the average is only 0.1 percent bigger, I think most men wont do the treatment.
But then this is the penis we talking about, so maybe they all will.

This is one of the main reasons why i advocate so much for people to share proof of their claims. That and to keep track of it. On the other hand, it is a job that somebody could do, other than the user. But it takes time and effort, to index all of that information.

This would be a handy refence to have on this site, but it would take a lot of work to do.
A before and after board with bone pressed measurements would be a useful board.

Normally on pubmed, and on these papers, they state if they have conflicts of interest or not. I could not see that info on this paper unfortunately. Regardless of the conflict of interest that there maybe, the data is still valid. It is generally accepted that once you go for a revision surgery later, you will have a bigger implant. Again... manufacturer data on all the implants USA-wide....

My surgeon did tell me the same thing, my next implant would be bigger.
But not sure if that's maybe wear on the bone from where the implant rests on.
I have asked this on FT from members who have had revisions done.
But never got an answer that their penis was bigger, some said their implant was though.

I think the last part of your post speaks for itself. Everybody want's to see pictures and proof, but nobody wants to contribute further worsening the vicious cycle. I really don't see whats the problem in somebody sharing a non identifying picture of your penis online. Nobody would ever knew it would be you. I also understand there has to be a middle ground on this.Respecting privacy concerns whilst doing good to the community. In the long run, it would be of great benefit. Examples on this very community:

-showing guys with bad peyronies and Erectile Dysfunction that an implant can be an excellent solution for their case, once they get over the fact that they will have to get an IPP
-showing that you could solve indentation and bad curvatures and also regain your pre-peyronies size, even if your penis doesn't get bigger.
-show that the gains are in fact true, by periodically taking pictures of your penis and keeping a journal. And sharing your doctor also.

In the end, more people go to said Dr. More people get proper care and are satisfied with their result. Said Dr. treats more cases and gets more experience and so on. Everybody benefits. Reflect on this....

I will think on what you say, I have kept all my pics from before my  first surgery and then after all 3 of them.
But I haven't took bone pressed pics, just how my penis looks at the time.

[nanthor]

Sorry to have to ask this but this thread refers to "FT" a lot. Can anyone tell me what or where that is? I'm new here, I assume it's a separate forum or a part of this forum but I'd like to find out. Thanks, Bob.

[samsung]

F r a n k talk dot org. Another cock and balls forum like this one.

[bustedchubb]

Well, technically this is a malfunctioning cock n balls (C&B) site... LOL!

[nanthor]

Thanks, Bob.