Colchicum vs Pentoxifylline

[Cesur]

Hello everyone

   First of all I want to say we will be okay, Keep strong 💪

   Diagnosed with peyronies 1.5 month ago. My uro prescribed me 3*1 colchicum 0.5 and vitamin E daily 400. After I saw forum  everyone mention about  pentoxifylline. My question is can I take pentoxifylline with colcihicum and Vitamin E. ? Can it be make bad interaction? How mg pentoxifylline can enough  daily ?
 

[pey ron]

Colchicum is more dangerous. They shouldn't interact.

[Cesur]

Why ?

[Realvinni2000]

  it should be an outdated therapy that nobody uses novadays

[Hontas]

 Use colchicium if you are young and use pentox if you are older thats about it. Clinicial trials mean jack crap, they dont know your pathogenesis.

[james1947]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19170411
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2050116119300923

...there was no statistically significant difference in medication type of pentoxifylline or colchicine

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4857830/
According to this paper, Pentox helps with Peyronies, Vitamin E not recommended, Colchicine has no effect.

A randomized, placebo-controlled trial, with 78 patients, did not demonstrate difference in plaque size or curvature for those using colchicine.

Proposing to every forum members to learn the subject (in any subject), backing his advise with documents before advising to other members.

James

[Hontas]

Anyone with a scientific background would know studies dont mean anything if your pathogenesis is different but hey, everyone has an opinion. If you want to prescribe pentox to someone with 0 ed you probably are hurting him more than helping him

[Cesur]

I have just curvature. No ED

[james1947]

Hontas

Use colchicium if you are young and use pentox if you are older thats about it. Clinicial trials mean jack crap, they dont know your pathogenesis.

If you want to prescribe pentox to someone with 0 Erectile Dysfunction you probably are hurting him more than helping him

Can you backup those two sentences?
Otherwise, your advises have no value

James

[Hontas]

James

Ok, so clinically older people tend to have more Erectile Dysfunction related fibrosis, and that is due to lack of blood flow and oxygen. Pentox is the go to drug for solving that problem. However most young people have perfectly normal erectile function but have an autoinflammatory disease or risk factor due to their genetics. They probably lack the adequate control for serum cytokine levels, and colchicine is the perfect drug to adjust that to lower inflammation and possibly even reverse fibrosis(in my case). Cialis could help both as cialis also has anti inflammatory aspect to it from some clinical trials as far as i know.

Pentox increases inflammation by actually reaching to those "problematic" inflammatory cells and supplying them with blood and oxygen. Its perfectly against what you want in a young persons pathology. I had a post summarizing how DAMPs and PAMPs play a role and how some drugs are for meant for certain people only, if you want to read or maybe talk about that you can look into that topic as well

[Hawk]

Hontas,

I am sure I have had as solid of a background in the scientific method as any non-professional here.  I am not a professional scientist or medical person but science has been my passion for 60 years.  I excelled at college level Biology, micro-Biology, physiology, and chemistry.  I have spent the last 20 years pouring over and learning to understand medical studies and clinical research for Peyronies Disease, cancer, and other diseases.  I have discussed these issues often with medical doctors in my circle of close friends.

To say clinical "studies dont mean anything if your pathogenesis is different", is so misleading.  First of all "your pathogenesis" is not used properly in that sentence.  I assume you mean the pathogenesis of his particular instance of the disease.  Next, if you understand the nature of randomized trials then know that a wide range of clinical factors are found within those studies, especially if they include a large sample.

Finally, there could be nothing less scientific than for a non-medical person to conclude that a person he never met and knows nothing about has clinical factors that are not represented in numerous clinical trials.  It also stretches the imagination to conclude that you know his clinical factors and understand the research well enough to confidently recommend a treatment discredited by research.  It is concerning that you would not only recommend such a course but that you would do so with completely bold, confident statements as though they are established facts when they are not established by any study or trial.

It is one thing to say what you would do to treat your disease and quite another to boldly dispense scientifically rejected solutions to others.

My suggestion is that such behavior is reckless and falls under the warning of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".  

[Hawk]

Cesur,

If you have not done so I would recommend that you read this link on or twice. https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,3180.0.html

Also, you should be aware that Colchicine can have serious side-effects, not unlike chemotherapy for cancer.  Very few leading doctors specializing in Peyronies Disease prescribe it any more.  I took it 15 years ago when first diagnosed.  It did nothing positive for me and reduced my white blood cell count.  

[Hontas]

Hawk

I am pleased to say to you that colchicine is scientifically proven to be helpful in certain cases as are other oral treatments in other type of cases,

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12656907

so the point you are making is based on a confirmation bias of "colchicine is bad". It does not in fact stem from an article or any proven thing. I am sure you have background in those fields but the fact is that i know i studied this as much as any other person in this forum as well, and i know for a fact that this disease has a lot of different ways to show up, and most of them don't even get close to be related to each other.

It does not matter how i put it, whether it be "different pathogenesis" or different types of peyronies(in terms of cellular causes).  They are not the ... well, same. If they were, we could find a universal treatment or cure already. But rather we have different oral treatments for different type of cases. I honestly don't care if someone "disagrees" with me, i can talk long about why they are different in terms of actual pathology or people can simply read one of my topics which totally goes in line with other scientific articles. It's just that i don't think anyone in the world with the capacity of cancer research scientist, looked into peyronie's on cellular level. It's not rocket science, its just that we don't have any drugs to solve it other than certain biologics at the moment.

In my opinion, people get stuck in small things that cause peyronies but forget to look into the bigger picture. Its not about TNF-a, IL-6 , or the gene this gene that. It's a chain of events that could be broken from the ground up, however since genetic mutations and variations are into play i can't estimate how to go on to solve it. Its all personalized. I can only generalize certain type of risk factors and mostly Erectile function, which can show us easily that the entire pathology is actually different. You can have cold hands both due to sclerosis or just a common eczema with the "same symptoms"(at least to the normal human eye or senses). But the pathology isn't the same is it?

[Hawk]

Hontas, I understand that like the rest of us that you wish you had more answers and solutions. However, you throw terms around in sentences that sound like you don't understand those terms. You also make bold claims with little to no evidence.  Much of what you state are things that apparently you alone claim to understand better than anyone else.  No leading doctors or trained research scientists agree with you.  Doesn't that hit you as a little odd ??

I certainly have no "confirmation bias" which means I want Colchicine to be bad.  I very much wanted it to be good.  My stance is totally evidence-based from:

1. Most major Peyronies Disease clinicians abandoning it in favor of drugs proven more effective and less damaging to the body.
2. The majority of studies that indicate it is no better than a placebo
3. The manufactures and FDA's acknowledgment of serious potential side-effects, many of which can be permanent.  https://www.drugs.com/sfx/colchicine-side-effects.html
3. Personal anecdotal experience of bad side-effects with no benefit.

So rather than confirmation bias, that equals an evidence-based understanding.

Your evidence is one 20-year-old study of 45 people comparing Cholchacine and vitamin E to Advil.  The study is so ridiculously small that one spontaneous improvement on either side could heavily skew the findings.  It was not even a blinded study with no mention of it being randomized. The study itself even acknowledged that it did not compare Cholchcine to any other oral drugs or supplements and such studies are needed.  Show me a double-blinded, randomized study with forty-five hundred men that compare Cholchicine to a PAV cocktail or even to ALC, Arginine, and Ubiquinol.    

I refer you and other readers to https://peyroniessociety.info/index.php/weighing-the-evidence/

PS: Since we walked on Cesur's topic I will likely move these posts into their own topic.

[Hontas]

Hawk i think i made myself clear in my last post as i don't see myself arguing with you, since you are still assuming that the disease is same for everyone for every age and every person. Without that assumption none of the things you have said(the articles and double blinded randomized placebo studies) has a scientific meaning, and i just don't agree with that assumption. Also you just also assumed that no leading trained research scientists don't agree with me(definitely looks like ad hominem to me), which is clearly a big false(you can look at the article i linked).  I am sorry to say that but its a fact that most of the scientific community's approach on this disease is flawed. Most of the peyronies experts are just experienced in motor related stuff like surgery, only a selected few know the reasoning behind it and has enough competence to actually prescribe stuff. That is not to say i know more than them, i just know that they are looking at it from the wrong perspective.

Surgery won't solve a lifelong metabolic disease. I don't see any oncologist just operating someone's lymph nodes due to cancer and saying "You are cured now". They even selectively give medications to people with certain risk factors and genetic test results. It's what should happen here as well. I have never seen something more scientific than cancer related treatment in medicine community. Most of the medicine community and articles otherwise are just marketing or biased research with little to no respect to the word "science". Any person that is a STEM graduate will tell you that and i am sure you are aware of this as well. Using just statistics are for the people who can't solve the real underlying problem. That includes me, you and the whole world for this case, in fact.

This has way more genetic and environmental components other than just lack of blood flow, dupuytren etc. I have read some articles that don't even include basic English in them as they were more about cancer rather than peyronies, and i can tell you that its not as simple or straight forward as it looks from outside. I can show some leading scientists that i agree with and they consistently tell what i am writing here,

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4501350/

But I can't show you a double blinded, randomized study with placebo that shows ANY drug is worthwhile, unless the majority of the people in the study was from a certain age or had similar risk factors(surprise, most studies use people with mean age of 50 ish). Most of the studies are based upon people with average age 45-50 and that even shows that that research is totally meaningless for a person with an unusual finding at the age of 25. If you or any other scientist actually think its scientifically meaningful to treat a 30 year old the same as 60 year old in terms of oral drugs or therapy, i can just have a chat and prove how utterly wrong that is, in scientific terms. If we want to talk science it shouldn't contain ad hominem's or assumptions. I am here to talk what is a treatment and what is not. If we want to call each other how wrong we were and attack each other, we have all day long but i don't see that happening as i thing with the age you are at you should see it as childish as i see it right now.

Taking all of this into account, its always harmful to say to someone that the drug is useless. It might be useless for 59 people but can directly stop the metabolic stress on the 60th person curing his condition.

Cesur i suggest you read articles that have a study population based on your age and risk factors and at least try every drug you can.

[Hawk]

WOW!  Where did you get your vast unsurpassed knowledge and training?  It would be amazing if we had the worlds foremost expert on Peyronies Disease right here on the forum.  Someone that has insight no one else has.

I am utterly without words!

Until you have clinical trials and evidence-based peer reviews.  Make sure you ALWAYS declare those as YOUR UNSUPPORTED PERSONAL OPINIONS IN EVERY POST or put them here -> https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/board,48.0.html

[Paolo]

I feel sorry for Hontas, he should be enjoying a fulfilling sex life at 29 Years old, peyronie's is a F^@$!ng curse for all  sufferers had I suffered it at his age or younger, man I don't know what I would have done. The only thing is acceptance that the penis you once had, and loved is now just a treasured memory.
It is sad that no current treatments are successful, not Xiaflex, Pentox or others, why, why can't the body not heal itself of this crap?

I know I am wrong but sometimes the forum seems a talking shop of misery, very rarely is there a post on improvements, those mostly come from surgery outcomes  
Paul.

[Hawk]

Peyronies Disease has trouble healing itself because Peyronies Disease is an autoimmune healing condition.  It is the body trying to heal itself in overdrive.  It is healing gone awry and making scar tissue where it is not needed for repair.  The more active the immune system the greater the problem, like Rheumatoid arthritis, Lupis, Psoriasis, and MANY other conditions. None of these have cures.  

Also, we are at a stage of development that many conditions get relief mainly from surgery outcomes.  We can say that about everything from broken bones to appendicitis, and cancer. and a hundred other conditions in between.  The miracle is that we live in a time when a skilled surgeon can cut into the body while you are 100% anesthetised and fix stuff.  The majority of mankind never had anything like that.

[Fix This]

Hi all, just stumbled across this post.

Apolgies for the slight change in subject. I can make a seperate post if required ? Hawk , in relation to your last message here relating to peyronies being an autoimmune condition. You mention that the more active the immune system the greater the problem. On this matter,  Would a higher functioning immune system only be a contrubuting factor to peyronies in the acute and initial stages do you think?  

I've had my peryronies following one penis trauma incident just over a year ago. I would consider my peyronies to be well into the stable phase now as there is no pain. At the time of my injury I was taking quite a high dose of vit C every day ( yes I stopped soon afterwards when I found out it could contrubute to peyronies development ) . I was also taking a probiotic tablet every day ( which I still do )  . The main reason I used to take both of these was to keep my immune system strong and stop me from getting colds. I used to travel abroad a lot with work ( musch less now ), I used to smoke ( I stopped after Xmas ), and I used to be partial to a drink when working away ( much less now again!). So both the Vit C and probiotic tablets could have contributed towards the scar / plaque formation after the injury it seems.

So , I'm wondering whether the current inclusion of a probiotic tablet every day is potentially making my peyronies worse or preventing it from improving? Any thoughts on this? I could easily remove the probiotic from my daily intake. I just take ot to stop me getting colds, especially since I stopped with the Vit C

Many thanks

Fix

[Anbil]

Hawk i think i made myself clear in my last post as i don't see myself arguing with you, since you are still assuming that the disease is same for everyone for every age and every person. Without that assumption none of the things you have said(the articles and double blinded randomized placebo studies) has a scientific meaning, and i just don't agree with that assumption. Also you just also assumed that no leading trained research scientists don't agree with me(definitely looks like ad hominem to me), which is clearly a big false(you can look at the article i linked).  I am sorry to say that but its a fact that most of the scientific community's approach on this disease is flawed. Most of the peyronies experts are just experienced in motor related stuff like surgery, only a selected few know the reasoning behind it and has enough competence to actually prescribe stuff. That is not to say i know more than them, i just know that they are looking at it from the wrong perspective.

Surgery won't solve a lifelong metabolic disease. I don't see any oncologist just operating someone's lymph nodes due to cancer and saying "You are cured now". They even selectively give medications to people with certain risk factors and genetic test results. It's what should happen here as well. I have never seen something more scientific than cancer related treatment in medicine community. Most of the medicine community and articles otherwise are just marketing or biased research with little to no respect to the word "science". Any person that is a STEM graduate will tell you that and i am sure you are aware of this as well. Using just statistics are for the people who can't solve the real underlying problem. That includes me, you and the whole world for this case, in fact.

This has way more genetic and environmental components other than just lack of blood flow, dupuytren etc. I have read some articles that don't even include basic English in them as they were more about cancer rather than peyronies, and i can tell you that its not as simple or straight forward as it looks from outside. I can show some leading scientists that i agree with and they consistently tell what i am writing here,

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4501350/

But I can't show you a double blinded, randomized study with placebo that shows ANY drug is worthwhile, unless the majority of the people in the study was from a certain age or had similar risk factors(surprise, most studies use people with mean age of 50 ish). Most of the studies are based upon people with average age 45-50 and that even shows that that research is totally meaningless for a person with an unusual finding at the age of 25. If you or any other scientist actually think its scientifically meaningful to treat a 30 year old the same as 60 year old in terms of oral drugs or therapy, i can just have a chat and prove how utterly wrong that is, in scientific terms. If we want to talk science it shouldn't contain ad hominem's or assumptions. I am here to talk what is a treatment and what is not. If we want to call each other how wrong we were and attack each other, we have all day long but i don't see that happening as i thing with the age you are at you should see it as childish as i see it right now.

Taking all of this into account, its always harmful to say to someone that the drug is useless. It might be useless for 59 people but can directly stop the metabolic stress on the 60th person curing his condition.

Cesur i suggest you read articles that have a study population based on your age and risk factors and at least try every drug you can.

I actually found alot of insight in your post. I'm wondering what stage your at now regarding your peyronies treatment? I got prescribed colchicine myself and am wondering whether to try it or not. Based on the side effects it seems like quite the nuclear approach however.