Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease

[Ironman]

Dr Herazy, thanks for your painstakingly well writ posts and the work you are doing on Peyronies Disease. Motivated now to try gentle massage, starting tonite. Kind of don't think it'll work, but ...long as it don't hurt me. I believe that you are sincerely trying to help men with Peyronies Disease. Thank you again.

[GS]

Guys,

I started the DHT gel therapy on Monday.  It took a while to get the DHT gel.  Based on my research, the DHT gel should help with erections and help to enlarge my penis and it should not cause any problems with my BPH symptoms.  I am using the DHT gel in conjunction with the VED, of which I'm in my 17th week.

So far I haven't noticed anything different, but , like the VED, it's a long term therapy.

If you are interested in getting information on the internet, goggle "doctors opinions of DHT gel".  That way, you'll get a lot less penis enlargement websites.

GS

[GS]

BrooksBro,

I don't think there is any doubt that a less than hard erection can be dangerous when having intercourse, especially with Peyronies.  To be safe, I use 20mgs. of Viagra for intercourse.  I buy the 100 mg dosage and just bite off a small piece each time.  It's less expensive that way.

As far as the testosterone gel is concerned,the way I am understanding it, DHT gel can't be converted to estrogen the way testosterone gel can.  You may want to research that and let us know what you think.

To compound my problem, I have BPH along with Peyronies, so my concern with the DHT gel is that is could cause more enlargement of my prostate.  I can't have that, even if it helps my Peyronies.  I'm reading a lot of conflicting reports on DHT and the prostate via the internet.  Any help on this issue would be appreciated.

Gs

[BrooksBro]

My urologist started me on daily topical testosterone gel (Testim) a few months ago when the testosterone level came back under 300.  This was more for ED than peyronies.  That said, I believe weak erections can lead to injuries which result in plaque formation.  Also, infrequent and weak erections result in less than optimum healthy penile tissue.

My initial favorable response faded.  It appears at least some of the additional testosterone might be converting to an estrogen (estradiol - E2).  I hope to find out if that is true soon, and address that.  Until I can get a definitive test, I am taking OTC Resveratrol and Quercetin, both aromatase inhibitors.  I'll stop them a week or so before my next doctor visit.

I am convinced if I can find a DR who will work with me on androgen/DHT replacement my body would correct itself - unfortunately, most of the Uro's I meet have no interest whatsoever in even considering that a 26 year old's ED and Peyronies Disease are related to low androgens.

[ocelot556]

GS,

This is an interesting thing for your DR. to suggest. I am convinced that at 23 I developed Peyronie's Disease due to short term use of Propecia, which inhibits DHT to prevent hair loss.

I am convinced if I can find a DR who will work with me on androgen/DHT replacement my body would correct itself - unfortunately, most of the Uro's I meet have no interest whatsoever in even considering that a 26 year old's ED and Peyronies Disease are related to low androgens.

Please keep us updated on if you begin this treatment and how it works for you!

[MUSICMAN]

Some of the relationships were more successful than others as far as penetration & sexual fulfillment. However, I have NEVER encountered a woman who ridiculed or teased or even mostly cared what the state of my penis was. Its a problem of confidence more than anything.

Some men have mild bends and penetration is not much of a problem. When a man has a bend that makes penetration impossible you can still have a sex life but far from the norm. As being married for over 35 year, peyronies has taken a toll on our relationship. If I had a 25 deg. bend I would concider myself cured. Medical treatment is financial out of the question. Mental pain for both partners is almost unbearable. So not being concerned that one does not have a perfect penis is not the issue for guys is my condition. If I were in a position to look for a new relationship,  the only woman that would have interest in me  would be one that need the house repaired or some other needs. Yes be happy if your condition still allows you to have a love life but concider the ones that can't.   Musicman

[GS]

Guys,

This may have been covered, but I couldn't find it on the forum.

My hormone replacement doctor wants me to use a DHT topical gel on my penis as therapy.  My research on the internet shows DHT as a penis enlargement hormone, but I don't find anything related to Peyronies.

Can someone point me in the right direction?

GS

[Angus]

   This site is one where posts can be made about Peyronies Disease and discussions had about the subject; this is a site where rules are easily found on the home page. This is a site where these rules are expected to be followed. Those who flame and launch personal attacks against the membership will be banned (Lancaster).
   There are plenty of message boards where men do not have to act and talk like gentlemen... this is not one of those sites.
   Sunny Sky, Old Man is a long-term well-respected member of this forum. He has also endured being flamed many times on this forum by men who couldn't conduct themselves as gentlemen and have a civil discussion on this message board. If you had read this board and past threads and messages you would know this. Please read past threads and messages for a better understanding of the board.
Welcome to the board, Sunny, but please use discretion with your words in posts.

   I will not allow flame posts to get started here or anywhere else on this board.

[Old Man]

Sunny Sky:

Watch your language son! I have been on this forum almost from the day it started and enjoy the position of being the senior member as well a major contributor. You don't state your age, but I will assume that you are not as old as I am.

I use the ID of Old Man simply because I am old - nearly 81 and been around the horn many times. Have had Peyronies Disease and related ED problems for 56 plus years now and so I know a few things about ED and Peyronies Disease. I am also a counselor with my local uro group for prostate cancer, ED along with Peyronies Disease. This affords me a vast resource of medical knowledge about these diseases/disorder.

You would be well served to stop, look and listen before spouting off in the manner you did. I seldom get uptight about anything, but you just don't know who you are talking about on this forum.

I used caps for emphasis to get a point across. Check the background of what led up to that post and you will better understand its language.

Now, if you came here for good information as you say, you have come to the right place. We are all here to help one another. So ask any and all questions you may have about Peyronies Disease and/or ED. You can get a world of information from what is already posted and get answers to questions that arise after you have done your homework. The search engine on the home page will get you into just about any subject you might have in mind on Peyronies Disease and ED.

Welcome to the world of Peyronies Disease and ED, but I am sorry if you have this devastating malady.

Old Man

[sunny sky]

What kind of site is this.  Who is this guy old man typing in all caps and picking a fight.  I came here to get good information.  Can't you men use private messaging for your gossip and conspiracy theories.

Lancaster:


GIVE IT A REST!! TAKE YOUR DRIVAL SOMEWHERE IT WOULD BE APPRECIATED + IT DEFINITELY IS NOT WELCOME HERE. EITHER CLEAN UP YOUR ACT OR YOU WILL BE GONE! THIS IS NOT A THREAT, JUST FOR YOUR INFORMATION. I DON'T USUALLY LET GUYS LIKE YOU GET MY SKIN (MY SKIN IS AS THICK AS AN ELEPHANT) AND YOU ARE NOT EITHER, SO BE FOREWARNED ABOUT CASTIGATING MEMBERS ON THIS FORUM WILL NOT BE TOLERATED!!

Old Man

[sunny sky]

I was told I could take pentox but the Dr's had so many qualifiers conneted to it's use like, "It sometimes works for some men, some of the time."  I turned it down.

Lancaster - what are you saying?? - that pentox is a waste - so what else can you offer - please let me know as Ive been on the pentox for 2 years and I dont want to continue using this if you think its a waste of time

thanks in advance

Iceman wake up. Pentox has studies backing it. Lancaster is some random in a forum.

[CP]

I am using PABA now and it is so much cheaper than POTABA.   I will let you know if it seems to be effective used with vitamin E.

Does anyone have any info on PABA?

[skunkworks]

Lancaster - what are you saying?? - that pentox is a waste - so what else can you offer - please let me know as Ive been on the pentox for 2 years and I dont want to continue using this if you think its a waste of time

thanks in advance

Iceman wake up. Pentox has studies backing it. Lancaster is some random in a forum.

[Iceman]

Lancaster - what are you saying?? - that pentox is a waste - so what else can you offer - please let me know as Ive been on the pentox for 2 years and I dont want to continue using this if you think its a waste of time

thanks in advance

[Tim468]

Dear Lancaster,

No detective work - just common sense. Someone comes to the forum for the "first time" and makes a comment about a dialog I had months earlier that was buried in the middle of another thread, and then makes the comment virtually hidden by changing the font to a small font.

Does it seem reasonable that a newcomer would say that? Or notice that? Or do that?

No, I thought you'd see that too.

For you, and the "newcomer" named BostonBlacky (who has a sort of familiar tone as he talks about how important it is to get high end research going), I do not engage in "detective work" (ballet or otherwise). I, like others, cannot help but pay attention to the world around him, so I notice stuff. Sometimes, I am interested enough to look into it further (and so I found other posts on other fora by a person who had come here to flame a bit)(or maybe it was someone else - who gives a damn?).

But you can rest assured that I am no longer interested enough in Boston Blacky to "investigate him" or to look up his IP of origin, etc. You might even note that I am no longer an Administrator here (and so I do not have access to posters' IP addresses as I used to have).

Although I understand Old Man's frustration at your posting this post, I think more of his frustration is directed at a sort of negative tone in what you say (often, not always). I tried to ask you about that, but you do not really come here, it seems, to engage in dialog. Instead, you come now and then, make a bunch of brief posts (generally negative about therapies that "don't work) and then leave - no responses to the replies or the comments engendered by your posts.

It might work better here if you engaged in dialog - just a thought.

Tim

[Old Man]

Lancaster:


GIVE IT A REST!! TAKE YOUR DRIVAL SOMEWHERE IT WOULD BE APPRECIATED + IT DEFINITELY IS NOT WELCOME HERE. EITHER CLEAN UP YOUR ACT OR YOU WILL BE GONE! THIS IS NOT A THREAT, JUST FOR YOUR INFORMATION. I DON'T USUALLY LET GUYS LIKE YOU GET MY SKIN (MY SKIN IS AS THICK AS AN ELEPHANT) AND YOU ARE NOT EITHER, SO BE FOREWARNED ABOUT CASTIGATING MEMBERS ON THIS FORUM WILL NOT BE TOLERATED!!

Old Man

[Lancaster]

"After finding this forum today I decided to join."
and
"I can see tim now, looking up my ip address to verify I am in MA.  Gotta poke fun at tim's ballet detective work."

BostonBlacky

If you are someone who has come back and are here again, then say it. If you are new, you picked a couple of buried and esoteric things to comment on! Other than noting that you were obviously a former member returning, I could not care less who you are. But it is of interest that you are not honest at the outset. It also appears that you have an axe to grind.

Hohum
-Tim

What? What? and What, again?  Tim, give yourself a rest from the ballet detective work.

-Have a good weekend

This member banned for creating a spam account.

[Fred22]

Thanks, Tim.  Helpful information.  I'm going to try to get back into it soon as the pain has subsided some in the last few days.  Can't use mine in the tub though because I have the Fitzz 3 cylinder and I'm pretty sure it's not a good idea to get water in the pump.  Thanks again.

Fred

[Tim468]

Fred,

We are all different. I do know that when I am "active" it hurts when I pump, and I adjust my technique a bit. This may help for you too.

I sit in the tub in hot water - I like a hot bath and I am not concerned with reducing my sperm count. I do think that this may make it easier to stretch, based on objective measurements of length made while stretching (I always get an extra 1/4 to 1/2 inch of length when I stretch this way - I do not know if that is 'better' though).

After sitting for a while (ie 5-10 minutes), I stand up and soap up. Standing makes it easier by far to use a VED than lying down. I apply a moderate vaccum with the hand pump. At this time (before my penis is really engorged yet) it is much easier to pull scrotum into the VED. I hold it out with the edge of my left hand, and also use a mild "milking action" with the VED. At this time, I frequently break the seal by accident - no big deal, just reseat it and pump up again. If the seal does not break by accident, I usually release quickly - usually within 5 seconds.

This initial pumping is allowing the penis to adjust and inflate - it does not happen instantly! But as you gradually get fuller, the base part starts to seat better and it is not so easy for the scrotum to be pulled in (less room since the penis is now fatter). At this point if I break a seal and take the VED off, I look very full but am certainly not hard or erect. I now pump to a desired pressure. Using a gauge, I personally pump in the A cylinder to about 180 - 200 mm Hg negative pressure. However, for others, this may be too much. Given your history, I might start at a lower pressure like 100 mm Hg negative pressure. For the C cylinder (I rarely use the B cylinder any more since many more weeks than 26 have now passed me by!), I use a lower pressure. The reason I use a higher pressure in the A cylinder, is that the pressure should be applied only to the head and is essentially pulling it out away from the body, with the penis constrained in the tube. In the C cylinder the pressure is being applied to the sides of the penis and it just feels like too much - and it leads to formation of edema in the soft tissue of skin.

I hold the pressure (using the A cylinder) for probably five minutes, then release and re-pump in about 20 seconds.

Others here will release the pressure much sooner (i.e. every 20-30 seconds) and repump after a 10 second wait. Obviously, there is no "best" way to do this. For you, I would start with shorter times at full pressure, and then see if that helps the pain, if not then switch to longer times. (I could create an rationale for either being "better" - more fresh blood is better; versus less fussing around and ups and downs might be better)

When I have pumped to the desired pressure, I am lazy so I sit back down and relax in the tub. When the penis has been stretched out a bit, it is much easier to release pressure and repump it while lying down (unless you wait too long - ie more than 1-2 minutes).

Fred, if you have a nerve going right through a plaque it may be really hard to do any of this without pain. I hope this helps give you ideas that do help.

Tim

[Fred22]

Tim,
 As you said, this should probably be in the VED section but since you posted here I'll go ahead.  I got the Fitzz 3 cylinder model just before Xmas and have attempted initiating the 26 week protocol a couple of times.  However, after about 3 days each time I've had to stop due to an increase in discomfort/pain.  We've discussed my history before and, as you know, pain is one of my major issues (going on 4 years with varying degrees of mild to excruciating pain).  I've been very careful not to overpump but as soon as I get any significant stretch it gets very uncomfortable.  Can you offer any suggestions/insight regarding this problem?  For example, I'm not sure how much of a stretch I should be trying to achieve at this point or how many times I should pump, how long to wait between cycles, etc.  Can you give me a rough idea of the best way to "ease into" this therapy, because I really want to give it a chance.  Do you think VED therapy is useful in reducing inflammation?  I'd appreciate any advice you can offer.  Thanks.

Fred

[Tim468]

Maybe this should be in the VED section...

One can use soap as a lubricant if done during a shower or bath - I do this almost every night. However, it is important to rinse it off very thoroughly to avoid rashes. Also it is absolutely important to trim hair or to shave NOT just before applying the VED as the microscopic cuts from the razor will favor a folliculitis or rash formation. I shave right afterwards to stay trimmed for a better seal - it is fine the next day.

Tim

[mischelstraus]

I am very interested in the focus of your post.
I m sure that your post will definitely be of help to many people.
Nice Stuff.I’m looking forward to reading more from you.

[cowboyfood]

Therefore, a simple and easy breakthrough cure for Peyronie's Disease does not exist.

Skjald

I agree with your premise, but I would slightly modify your conclusion to read " . . . a known cure for Peyronie's Disease does not exist, notwithstanding evidence that some treatments may reduce or eliminate an individual's Peyronie's Disease symptoms."

CF

[George999]

I would just add to Skjald's comments this:

When a cure is found for Peyronie's you will know about it here.  Continually guys are recommending potential treatments on this site.  Invariably, when any possible treatment is suggested, multiple guys usually try it.  That is how desperate we are for something that works in this very large community.  Anything that provides benefit will light up this forum and spread like wildfire.  You can count on that.  The reason nothing has lit up this forum so far is simply because nothing has ever been suggested that has proven capable of curing Peyronie's.  NOTHING.  There are things that help, and because this forum is so large and diverse, those things become common knowledge quickly in this community.  That's reality folks!  - George


PS - Dr. Herazy is indeed a doctor.  However he is a chiropractic doctor which would imply that his professional expertize in dealing with Peyronie's would be limited whether he would admit that or not.

[George999]

Oh my!  How could I have missed such a fascinating string of posts that have broken out on this thread over the past few weeks?  Even Dr Herazy has shown up!  Will wonders never cease?  And along the way we have the bizarre solutions typical of this AT thread plus the critics of more conventional solutions.  The stew is piping hot!

While all of this makes for great drama and entertainment, lets not forget the stuff that works.

1)  A lot of guys here have confirmed that the VED works for them.  That is pretty good evidence that it does work for at least some people.

2)  A lot of guys here have noted a degree of benefit from Pentoxifylline.  I am one of them.  Additionally Drs Lue, Levine and others recommend Pentoxifylline.

3)  A growing number of guys are reporting benefits from traction.  And Dr Levine and others recommend it.

So lets make it clear that if you want something with some evidence behind it that is available now, the above are it.  Lets also be clear that none of the above are likely to cure your Peyronie's, although I suspect someone just starting with Peyronie's *might* be able to achieve a cure IF they catch it quickly enough.

On the other hand, pretty much everything posted on this thread are shot in the dark stuff.  They may work and they may not.  Likely they may not.  They may be safe and they may not.  Caveat Emptor .  And ... They may work for some, but not for others .  Better luck next time!

I have used a lot of supplements since I have had Peyronie's, including a number I actually purchased directly from Dr Herazy.  I never felt "ripped off" by Dr Herazy, but I never felt that I achieved significant benefit from any of his treatments either.  I can say that at least some of the products he sells on his site are very good products and the price he charges for them is reasonable.  EVERY supplement I myself have suggested on this forum is, with a few very rare exceptions, is one I have tried myself.  And every rare exception I have tried to make it clear that I myself had not used it.  EVERYTHING I ever stated I was using, I WAS using.  And I have done my best to report back on the percieved success or lack of.  I have even gone to the point of editing my prior posts with new information (without deleting anything) to clarify things.

I honestly believe that many of the supplements I have used HAVE been helpful for my Peyronie's.  No one gives credit to the level of benefit that blocks progression to whatever degree, but I call that a benefit.  But NO supplement I have ever taken has helped me to the extent that Pentoxifylline has.  That is the honest truth.  ALC is the ONLY supplement that comes close.

I believe very deeply that the root cause of Peyronie's is metabolic.  Additionally, I believe that underlying metabolic problem can and does produce more fibrotic disorders as time progesses.  So I believe it is important not only to treat Peyronie's itself with things like the above three known beneficial treatments, but also to attempt to treat the underlying metabolic disorder.  This is why I advocate things like checking and optimizing serum Vitamin D levels and using Low Dose Naltrexone, all under the supervision and guidance of a physician.  Both are known to work at a very deep level on normalizing immune system function.  There are new studies on Vitamin D appearing on an almost daily basis and all are positive.  There is a worldwide peoples movement on behalf of Low Dose Naltrexone due to the benefits people are receiving from it AND multiple positive initial studies demonstrating benefit from it.  Both Vitamin D and Low Dose Naltrexone relate to inflammation and auto-immunity.  Both are inexpensive and totally safe when used under medical supervision.

And of course, in the future there are things like Xiaflex and perhaps drugs like Pirfenidone.

For all its faults, thanks to guys like Hawk and Tim, this forum is the number one best source for information on how to deal effectively with Peyronie's.  But its messy and there are no simple solutions.  Most of the guys who come here to snipe and snap are just bitter over the fact that no one can offer them a simple solution.  So they berate their doctors, they berate the researchers, and eventually they come here and berate us.  They are furious because they tried something they read about here and it "didn't work".  They make it sound like we were promoting it as a sure solution.  In reality, nothing could be further from the truth.  Everything presented here is vetted by the group.  Anyone who comes here and pulls a recommendation out of its context of surrounding comments and posts is a fool.  And unfortunately, rather than ending it there, they sometimes come back again and make a fool of themselves with their own tirading rants.

-  George

[Skjaldborg]

Several questions arise when an alternative cure for Peyronie's is introduced: why haven't we heard of this before? Is it so novel and unorthodox so as to blindside the medical establishment? I believe the principle of Occam's Razor helps answer this question, which favors the simplest hypothesis that still answers the question.

Regarding (Dr.?) Herazy's treatment, if a simple and effective cure for Peyronie's existed, be it pharmacological or physical in nature, we would already know about it. No breakthrough cure would go under the radar because such treatments are actively sought by established medical professionals who have a thorough understanding of the physiological aspects of the disease. Some very talented people are working on Peyronie's disease right now, some are even dedicating their academic and professional careers on it such as Dr. Lue and Dr. Levine, so it stands to reason that any cure that did exist would be known by these people due to their extensive familiarity with the disease.

Some might argue that the medical establishment would rather contrive an expensive therapy for their own monetary benefit. While this is possible given the greedy and predatory nature of man, it is unlikely because a cure for Peyronie's disease is not destined to be a blockbuster drug given that relatively few men ever get the disease. Furthermore, any truly simple treatment would not be patentable and thus very difficult to monetize effectively.

Lastly, although the world can be a bitter and terrible place (a world in fact where a young and healthy man in his 30s such as myself will get an incurable and painful disease that deforms his penis) I still believe that the doctors I have visited hold true to the Hippocratic Oath in treating me to the best of their ability. I find it highly unlikely that any of the doctors I have seen would withhold a truly breakthrough treatment from me for their own gain if they did know of its existence.

Therefore, a simple and easy breakthrough cure for Peyronie's Disease does not exist.

Skjald

[GS]

I have been using it for about 6 months; I honestly don't think it helped much, if any.

I started the 3 cylinder VED 2 weeks ago and it seems to be helping already.

As everyone else has warned(mainly Old Man), be VERY careful when you start and don't over pump the vacuum pressure.  And, don't use soap and/or shampoo as a lubricate.  It will cause skin irratation.  I wet my penis and scrotum with warm water and then apply plenty of KY.

GS

[zeppo]

Has anyone tried Dr. Herazy's stretching method?  If so, does it work?
Thanks in advance.
Zeppo. 

[Tim468]

My mailbox is now open again - thanks for letting me know it was full.

I have tried traction as well as the VED and found that the VED worked well enough (though not perfectly) and the traction - for me - caused a little trauma at the "pinch point" where the sling attached. I have used two different devices types for traction and found both to be too cumbersome for me to make time for.

Tim

[ohno]

Sorry about the last post being in this thread. I tried to send a private email to Tim but his mailbox was full. I realize this should be under traction or ved.

[ohno]

Hi Tim, I'm more than a little curious why you chose ved. When I weighed the differences between traction and ved I came down on the side of traction because (and in spite) of the length of time involved. You know, kind of like braces on teeth. I don't have a problem with ED just plaque with pretty bad hourglassing. Did you ever try traction and if not, why not (believe me the time involved - 4 hours a day for 4 months now has been more than a little inconvenient - so I get that part of it.)  I am not doctor as you are and don't consider myself much smarter than the average bear. Being a doctor, your opinion carries a lot more weight, so I would love to hear your reasoning. Thanks so much and thanks for all of your contributions on the forum. Ohno

[Old Man]

Dr. Herazy:

Well now, after reading your dissertation in response to my questions, I find there is still no VIABLE reason not to believe and confirm that VED therapy can and will help eliminate Peyronies Disease problems for most men. Again, I state that if used properly, in moderation and with common sense (if that is possible with one who has Peyronies Disease) that VED therapy can be successful in most cases. However, ONE CAVEAT, the user of a VED must have patience and not get over zealous in his approach. Over pumping the pressure can and will cause further damage as you state, but that risk is far outweighed with the good that VED therapy does. VED therapy when used properly is a case where less is better than more.

I too have been personally acquainted over the years with the Osbon family who owns the current Augusta Medical Systems company in Augusta, GA. Julian Osbon owner of Augusta Medical Systems, and the son of Geddings Osbon who started the old Osbon Medical company are respectable business people and have the interest of Peyronies Disease sufferers at heart. Geddings Osbon developed the VED as a result of his personal battle with Peyronies Disease and I as well as others personally know that the company is not selling a bill of goods when it comes to the VED. The FDA ruled against their Soma Correct VED due the lack of clinical trials, sure, but they did not fold under that pressure and came back with another VED that has proved to be successful for so many of us on this and other forums. It seems that once men realize that VED therapy can help them, they never come back on the forum to report their successes or failures if that should happen.

So now, you have your opinion and we (myself and forum members) have ours. I will not address this issue witih you any further. The testimonials of men of this forum is enough satisfaction for me to know personally from them that VED therapy is the way for them to achieve at least some relief from Peyronies Disease symptoms. So, you keep your position about this issue and we will keep ours. Just read the prior posts to this post to see what support these guys have for my position on this issue. I do not ask for any compensation nor have received any - just have the interest at heart for men who suffer from this horrible mess no matter how it was acquired. My experiences over the past 56 years have taught me volumes about Peyronies Disease, probably more than most doctors will ever be willing to take the time to learn!

Thank you for your answer, but I still just don't buy into your theory. May God bless you in your endeavors!

Respectfully, Old Man (80 plus and still counting!!!)

[Tim468]

Dr Herazy,

1) You do charge a lot of money for A) items available for a lot less money (ie vitamin E) and B) of completely unproven efficacy (I.e. nattokinase).

2) You have now heard from an MD who uses the VED (me).

3) Regarding your arguments about the VED, I used to believe most of them as well. In particular, the issue of where the stretching is applied, and hence where the change occurs. However, if the stretch is differentially applied to the normal tissue and it thus becomes longer or of greater girth and the scar does not, the net effect is still straightening. In my case, straightening with a dent (where the scar is). In my book, that is still better than a 45 degree curve. It makes for good debate, but the effect is still the same.

As hokey as it is (it is just a starting point, not a religious dogma), the use of three cylinders is important. I personally think that the narrow cylinder, which effectively applies a longitudinal stretch to the penis, is the most important.

Overuse or abuse of the VED leading to Peyronie's is documented in the literature. The pressures applied (when written up in the medical literature) are amazingly high. Perhaps common sense is not common - I agree with you about the ways men make mistakes when it relates to the penis.

Finally - Old Man has found a successful way to deal with his Peyronies Disease. I am not so sure that he is still "in the fight for recovery". I think it might be better to say, "Isn't it grand that you found a pathway to recovery and are willing to share it with others"

"For free", I would add.

Tim

[Iceman]

dr herazy - I reckon that you are a total rip off merchant peddling the same BS lines across all your marketing material - across your websites + now on this site - mate ive used the VED and its been great - I stopped using the VED over Xmas as I was overseas and did notice that the difference in size and curvature when I came back and resumed my VED usage - I have bought some of your BS waste of money products and zip happened v- you are a total FU**ing leachg mate!!

Be honest for once - the only reason you knock the VED is because you DONT SELL the ved - blind freddy can see this!!

OK so my advise to you mr herazy  ( cause your aint no doc) is to go back to that hole you crawled out of keep your tin pot sales spiel to yourself - and if I ever hear from you again Im personally going to fly to the states and kick your front teeth in!!!

[j]

Dr. Herazy, I note that you also own the domain dupuytrens-contracture.com so I assume you're the founder of the "Dupuytren's Contracture Institute" (although no actual names appear on that site).  Have you also cured yourself of Dupuytren's, using some combination of the products being sold through that site - such as this bundle, priced at $510.52:


- Integral E 400/400 (60)
- Gamma E 500 (60)
- Topical Vitamin E Oil
- Fundamental Sulfur (100)
- Nattokinase 1500 (120)
- Fibrozym (100)
- Dusa-Sal DMSO Gel (4 oz)
- Scar-X  (1 oz)
- PABA 500 (100)
- Quercetin-Bromelain (100)
- Genesen Pointers

[therazy]

Greetings Old Man,

Thank you for your thoughtful inquiry about my opinion of the VED.  I realize there can be a difference of opinion amongst well-intended people.  I am not presenting this information to you as a statement of absolute truth about Peyronies Disease treatment, because at this point there doesn’t seem to be any.  I only wish to present my reasons based on my personal and professional experiences, training  and education. 

TRH:

Would you care to explain further why you do not recommend treatment/therapy using the VED?

I have had Peyronies Disease for over 56 years now, tried just about any and everything throughout those years up to and including topical X-ray treatments (45 to be exact) with no results.

After introduction of the VED after a radical prostatectomy in 1995, the VED was RXd for the resulting impotency due to non nerve sparing surgery (not available at that time). After a year of a protocol that my uro and I worked out, the Peyronies Disease disappeared and it is now in remission.

I work with that local urological group by demonstrating use of the VED for Peyronies Disease with some of their patients. So far, there has been remarkable results with these men. VED therapy is a safe and viable method of therapy for Peyronies Disease if it is done with common sense and caution to preclude any further trauma.

So, please elaborate a bit more on why you do not see fit to recommend VED therapy for Peyronies Disease.

There are several reasons I hold this opinion to not advocate the use of the VED for Peyronie’s disease:

1.  Many men over the years have written and told me they directly trace their Peyronies Disease back to use of a VED.  This is not necessarily from repeated use (although I have reports of that, also), but from a single use of the VED.  These men state they did not overuse or abuse the device.  Afterward the penis was either bruised or painful, or both, and soon thereafter they demonstrated telltale signs and symptoms, and were diagnosed with Peyronies Disease.   

Although it does happen, I do not hear of many people who are pleased with VED results; from my experience, most people report no benefit or a negative experience of some type.  Part of this one-sided report I know is simply because the men who like the VED and benefit from it do not come to my website looking for alternatives.  I suppose it is the same way that men who use Alternative Medicine successfully, and have recovered from Peyronies Disease to the best of their ability, no longer visit forums such as this one.  Only those with poor responses continue to look for answers that might eventually lead them to discuss their problems with me.
     
2.  You offered your opinion that the VED is safe “if it is done with common sense and caution to preclude any further trauma.”   That is just the reason, in my opinion, the VED is unsafe.  No VED user can tell ahead of time, with any reasonable degree of certainty or expectation, the level of vacuum force that is safe or unsafe until it is too late.  This would be like saying, “Nitroglycerine is safe if you do not shake it up too much.”  Well, what is too much shaking of nitroglycerine, and what is too much VED vacuum force on a penis?  You won’t know until you do damage.  Increased safety with the VED demands a decreased vacuum force, resulting in reduction of any potential effectiveness.  My opinion is that most men would want to be as aggressive as possible if the idea behind the VED is to stretch the tissue within.  This is where the problems can start.

3.  This next reason is actually related, but different from, your same statement given above that “VED therapy is a safe and viable method of therapy for Peyronies disease if it is done with common sense.”   I am a man.  I know how this is, as we all do.  Men are often driven by urges and instincts that blind us from common sense when it comes to our genitals.  We see evidence of this in our politicians, business leaders, church leaders, teachers, entertainers, and sports stars and perhaps under our own roof, that men do not use a lot of common sense or restraint – or hardly any – when it comes to their penis. 

Why would Tiger Wood go catting around with scores of hookers and less beautiful women, and eventually risk the most lucrative and enjoyable sports career ever developed, when he is married to a Swedish model, the mother of his child?   It is my observation that this frequent lack of common sense and restraint in regard to sex and the penis is what drives men to use the VED to the excess that eventually injures the tissue.  Sure, the VED maker will warn about the dangers of overuse and abuse.  But when a man looks down to see himself looking larger than he has ever been in his life, I believe it is far too easy for most men to get carried away and overuse the VED.  I have heard these stories over and over.  Some get away without injury that results in Peyronies Disease, and others do not.  To my mind, it is not worth the risk, especially when you keep 4. in mind, next.         

4.  A few years back I was communicating heavily with the good people who make the Osbon SommaCorrect Vacuum Erection Device.  They market their VED as an erectile dysfunction device and wanted to market it also as a Peyronies Disease treatment device.  They needed some positive medical research to support that claim, so they were doing research with, as I best recall, the University of Michigan School of Medicine.  I was monitoring that study because, if successful, it would make me rethink my position about  the use of the VED for Peyronies Disease.  I was also interested because it would open the door to include their particular VED as part of the Peyronie’s Disease Institute lineup of Alternative Medicine therapies.  Bottom line:  The study was abandoned because of poor outcomes and the report of some injury.   

5.  Since a VED stretches all tissue within the vacuum, it can damage the veins of the penis, such as the deep and superficial dorsal penile vein.  This can happen if the valves of any veins are distorted in the stretching process.  As a result it is possible they will not close properly, causing a mild or severe, local or area-wide, reduction of the ability to become erect.  (I believe this is the reason the notorious porn legend, Johnny Wad Holmes, owner of a massive penis, could not develop an erection that could be inserted easily. It was not necessarily that he was too large, but that he was too soft. He had to guide and coax his member into place, lubricating himself with saliva from his fingers to help it in.  In many scenes his frustration with himself is visible.   Rumors are that many of the close-up shots of intercourse in his movies were a stunt double.)  So, even if the VED helps develop a kielbasa size organ, there is a serious risk it would have difficulty becoming erect.           

6.  When used conservatively, the VED will develop only a partial semi-hard erection at best.  Attempting to insert or have active intercourse with a partial erection is dangerous for anyone – and could be a total catastrophe for a man with Peyronies Disease.   The problem is that a partial erection is essentially weak and unstable, leading to the potential for buckling and sudden bending during the rigors of active sex.  This sudden bending is how many cases of Peyronies Disease begin; if a man already has Peyronies Disease this could easily aggravate an already bad situation.   

7.  Take a thick rubber band, and cut out a small part of it in the middle so that you now have a thin section between the two thicker sections. Now, what happens when you pull on that rubber band?   Most – if not all – of the stretch that occurs in this modified rubber band will occur in the thinner, weaker part. The thicker uncut portion will not stretch because the thinner part participates almost completely in the stretching action.  This is also why paper towels and stamps will tear along the perforation.   What does this have to do with the VED?   A lot.  The scars of a penis with Peyronies Disease are fibrous and dense when compared to the other normal penile tissue.  This is why bending and all kinds of distortion occur when a man with Peyronies Disease develops an erection – the scar tissue does not stretch as the rest of the penile tissues.  So in this way, the scar is thicker and less flexible, and the normal healthy penile tissue by comparison is more thin and flexible – just as in the rubber band mentioned above. 

When a VED – or a mechanical penis stretcher – attempts to stretch the penis and the Peyronies Disease scar that might be present within it, in my opinion, it is only healthy and normally flexible tissue that will participate in the stretch and not the thicker and less flexible scar materials.  It is my further opinion that the only tissue being stretched by the VED – or the mechanical penis stretchers – is healthy non-Peyronies Disease tissue.  If this were not the case, then paper towels and postage stamps would not tear at their perforations. I believe this is simple physics in action, and the explanation for the old saying, “A chain will break at its weakest link.”  After using the VED – or a mechanical penis stretcher – you might have a larger organ, but it will still have Peyronies Disease scars within it because the more flexible tissues will always absorb the energy of the stretch before the fibrous tissues are able to participate.

8.  Of the many MDs who have consulted with me over the years about how to treat their own Peyronies Disease, I have never had one who said he used a VED.  I think this is perhaps a weak reason, but it is still an interesting observation. 
I hope this explains my reasons for my opinion about using a VED for Peyronie’s disease.  I am grateful to read your reasons you believe in the use of the VED, as you do.  While I know there are men who say they benefit from the VED, I suppose I am lead to my position by a different series of experiences and information.   
 

Also, did your study include more than the ten men you mention in your post?

The small study we did to refine the manual penis stretching concept was with only ten men.  Part of the reason I felt that ten men was an adequate number of volunteers in this case was because we were not starting with a brand new idea.  We were only attempting to see if the proven information and standard soft tissue techniques could be applied to a new area for a new problem – and it seemed to work. The idea that soft tissue can be stretched using a very gentle traction “force” is well-known and established within the field of manual therapy.  Applying these concepts and techniques to Peyronie’s disease was just a small side-step.  Since the results were generally favorable, there was no reason for more review.

Since offering the stretching video about a year ago, many men are now using the concept of gentle manual penis stretching.  Because these basic concepts and techniques were fairly well developed during that original work, only a few men have offered subsequent ideas for improvement or additional refinement of the technique.  As such, this treatment concept continues to be refined and improved over time, and has shown to be a good additional tool in our kit.   

Thank you for helping Peyronies Disease men with your VED work.  I am sure you are very gratified you can provide that kind of assistance.

I am sorry to hear of your prolonged and extensive search for help with your Peyronies Disease.  It is wonderful that you are still in the fight for recovery. I applaud you, Young Man, er, Old Man.

Dr. Herazy

[chiguy]

Has anyone on this board ever utilized Dr. Herazy's treatments and if so, was the program successful?

[therazy]

Greetings ohno,
In answer to your questions:

Two questions:
What does it mean that you "subsequently treated myself successfully"? (no more curvature, plaque,etc?)

Yes, I treated myself with Alternative Medicine concepts and eventually all three scars were absorbed and my compound distortion of 35 degrees to the left, 10 degrees up with a counterclockwise torque was eliminated.  Since that time I have no remnants of Peyronie’s disease.   

How could anyone who has suffered from this disease try to profit from it? (ie, why not tell us all on this site how to try to help each other - that's what people do here. Could your withholding helpful information be considered aiding and abetting suicide?)

I suppose the answer is for the same reason that you must earn a living by being paid for the work you do.  I have chosen to earn a living telling people about using Alternative Medicine to beat their Peyronies Disease.

If a urologist developed Peyronies Disease, and had a surgeon do a Nesbit procedure on him, would you then expect that urologist to not charge for the Nesbit surgeries he did from that point forward?  I think not.

In your last comment you suggest I am withholding information about Peyronies Disease treatment. Each day of the last eight years I have spent a great amount of time, effort and money to explain in detail how I was able to help myself resolve my Peyronies Disease problem, as well as offer help to those who wish to attempt to do the same.   Detailed treatment information is freely available to anyone who wants to visit my website, sign up for my monthly newsletter, or read my blog.  Each day men use my toll-free number to call from around the world wanting information about their Peyronies Disease treatment; these phone calls last from five minutes to an hour.  Each day I write many long and detailed email replies and blog posts to Peyronies Disease questions.  I do not change anyone for the hundreds of hours I spend each year offering personal consultations to the many Peyronies Disease men and women in need. 

Even though you might not have come across any of my information before now, I have been involved with spreading the word about Alternative Medicine Peyronies Disease treatment for many years.  On a daily basis I address an audience of people who wish to use a non-drug and non-surgical approach to Peyronie’s disease.   The only reason I submitted a post to the Peyronie’s Disease Society was to expand upon a few points brought up by Hawk that I thought needed correction and clarification; he was kind enough to allow me to do so.

No one who ever asked me a question through my website, newsletter or forum, or read my books, could possibly accuse me of withholding my thoughts and opinions about Peyronie’s disease treatment.  TRH 

[Tim468]

TRH,

Thank you for coming here.

I think the principal context in which you are viewed is as someone trying to make a buck, and when that appears to be the starting point, all the rest starts to become suspicious.

Of course, one could say that about anything - a scientist publishing in a peer reviewed journal is trying to get promoted, or a better grant. And so on.

But there is a theme of grandiosity in your claims that is only somewhat tempered by your post here, which does not read as much like an ad for the lottery, as do your website claims.

The Central Limit Theorem of statistics suggests an answer to the dilemma we discuss here.

Ten men is not enough - and this is the central dilemma faced in such research. The next ten men might end up with totally different results, and this is the result to many, many promising theories and practices advocated in the past (ie vitamin E, interferon, etc).

So your ideas may make sense, but that does not make them either correct or even close.

And my son is "in discussion" with his English teacher regarding his unfinished homework - according to him. But he is still grounded until it's done.

In a word, one cannot sell or advocate a treatment without having proved it works and expect to get praised here unequivocally or without both criticism and some cynicism.

Tim

[Tim468]

"After finding this forum today I decided to join."
and
"I can see tim now, looking up my ip address to verify I am in MA.  Gotta poke fun at tim's ballet detective work."

Right....

BostonBlacky

If you are someone who has come back and are here again, then say it. If you are new, you picked a couple of buried and esoteric things to comment on! Other than noting that you were obviously a former member returning, I could not care less who you are. But it is of interest that you are not honest at the outset. It also appears that you have an axe to grind.

Hohum

[Old Man]

TRH:

Would you care to explain further why you do not recommend treatment/therapy using the VED?

I have had Peyronies Disease for over 56 years now, tried just about any and everything throughout those years up to and including topical X-ray treatments (45 to be exact) with no results.

After introduction of the VED after a radical prostatectomy in 1995, the VED was RXd for the resulting impotency due to non nerve sparing surgery (not available at that time). After a year of a protocol that my uro and I worked out, the Peyronies Disease disappeared and it is now in remission.

I work with that local urological group by demonstrating use of the VED for Peyronies Disease with some of their patients. So far, there has been remarkable results with these men. VED therapy is a safe and viable method of therapy for Peyronies Disease if it is done with common sense and caution to preclude any further trauma.

So, please elaborate a bit more on why you do not see fit to recommend VED therapy for Peyronies Disease. Also, did your study include more than the ten men you mention in your post?

Old Man (80 years old and closing in on 81)

[ohno]

Two questions:
What does it mean that you "subsequently treated myself successfully"? (no more curvature, plaque,etc?) and

How could anyone who has suffered from this disease try to profit from it? (ie, why not tell us all on this site how to try to help each other - that's what people do here. Could your withholding helpful information be considered aiding and abetting suicide?)

[therazy]

In the spirit of disclosure, my name is Theodore R. Herazy, DC and I have operated the Peyronie’s Disease Institute website since 2002.  This is a website devoted to a detailed discussion of Alternative Medicine treatment of Peyronies Disease, using a synergistic group of therapies that are available for purchase on this site.  The initial concepts and practical steps for non-drug and non-surgical treatment of the man who has Peyronies Disease were based on my own investigation and the thinking of three MDs with whom I was practicing when I developed Peyronies Disease and subsequently treated myself successfully.         

I was just recently made aware of the below post that referenced my website and a small private research project I completed in 2008, and thought it would be good to address the issues he raised.  I have communicated with this forum Administrator who approved that I respond to that post.  Thank you for the opportunity to address this audience concerning this forum post.

This statement just makes me roll my eyes   

This video presents detailed instructions to stretch and improve the six basic types of Peyronies Disease deformities:
     1. Twist
     2. Curve
     3. Bend
     4. Dent (also called a ding, depression, or hinge)
     5. Hourglass
     6. Bottleneck
Further, additional information is included that explains how to successfully stretch a combination of distortions, since very often two or more penis distortions appear together.

Assuming manipulating one's penis could improve it (which is a huge assumption),

It is not an assumption.  Soft tissues of the body when abnormally contracted can be stretched and, hence, improved.  Therapeutic soft tissue stretching has been done for thousands of years – it was just never applied to Peyronie’s disease until I did it. 

Begin with the fact that the lesion of Peyronies Disease is a soft tissue structure containing collagen, fibrin, and elastic tissue fibers, of similar composition as other soft tissue structures (tendons, ligaments, fascia and organ matrix).  These structures are capable of contraction and therefore they can also be influenced to stretch.  Soft tissue responds to lineal traction force when it is correctly applied, sometimes at a surprisingly fast rate.  In fact, physical therapists spend great time and effort stretching surface scars that occur after surgery or trauma to lengthen them, as well as internal scars referred to as adhesions.  Soft tissue stretching is successfully performed by doctors to increase distance between compressed spinal vertebrae, as well as on burn units, post-surgically in bladder repair, bone grafting and breast augmentation, many forms of cosmetic surgery, as well as ballerinas, athletes and contortionists.  Professional body builders spend a lot of time stretching soft tissues.  Anyone who has used a VED (although I do not advocate it for Peyronies Disease), knows that it can temporarily stretch penile tissue.  African women who wish to create the illusion of a longer neck will stretch the neck and shoulder soft tissues to lengthen their soft tissue. 

The PDI gentle manual method to stretch the Peyronies Disease lesion is totally different from the concept of the mechanical penis stretching devices that are heavily promoted.  Unlike the mechanical penis stretchers that can cause injury to the penile tissue, sometimes starting or worsening Peyronies Disease, gentle manual penis stretching cannot harm the penis when done as instructed.  The only “force” used is about an ounce – extremely small; so small that one of the difficulties encountered in teaching this technique is to have the user lighten his contact touch so that he does not create defensive resistance to the lengthening process within the scar tissue.   

Lastly, I want to make sure you and your forum readers do not make the PDI gentle manual penis stretching method something that it is not.  I am concerned that you are viewing this stretching method as a solo therapy, just as the mechanical penis stretchers are advertised as a solo therapy.  This is not the case with the stretching method I developed.  It is not intended to be used alone to help Peyronies Disease, just as none of the therapies on the PDI website are recommended to be used alone. 

The basic idea behind the PDI therapy concept is the use of multiple therapies to enhance therapeutic synergy – “ganging up” on the problem with multiple therapies.  This is what was done when the PDI gentle manual penis stretching method was developed.  All 10 men in our work group were using other therapies in addition to the stretching method.  What was noted as a result of including the stretching technique into their existing plans was that their results were noticeably increased in eight of the 10 cases; the two men who did not see good improvement were not using aggressive therapies; the eight who got added benefit by including the PDI stretching method were using aggressive therapies.  Using multiple therapies is not good research, I know, but I am not a researcher and I notify people on the website I am not doing research.  I am interested in helping people who have Peyronies Disease to get better, and I think I can do that outside the format of formal research.  My readers either accept that idea, or they do not.

where would one even begin to get the knowledge on how to manipulate these various deformities and combinations successfully

Graston, Barnes, Upledger, Hammer, McAtee, etc. are just a few of the many educators in the general area of soft tissue stretching, who have lectured for decades to a worldwide medical audience. Detailed knowledge, experience, and technical training concerning soft tissue stretching and lengthening are readily and widely available within the broad world of physical therapy, osteopathic medicine, chiropractic, physiatry, and sports medicine.  Perhaps you were unaware of this wide universe of information within the healing arts that relate to soft tissue manipulation.   

The idea and basic technique to safely and gently stretch the Peyronies Disease scar had to start with someone, so I must answer that the original idea of soft tissue manipulation started with me.  Perhaps I am the pioneer in this area of gentle manual Peyronie’s scar stretching you ask about.  But I only built upon a larger body of experience and knowledge from people far smarter than I.

There are no pioneers to build on, no such research.

Not so.  Refer to the previous answer.  There are hundreds of research papers and texts that document the efficacy of soft tissue manipulation and stretching.  However, none of this information was previously applied to the penis in Peyronies Disease, until I made that step.  Does that make it automatically impossible or false?  I think not. 

Many medical discoveries and innovations are made by taking well known information about “A” and applying it to a new situation like “B,” if there is reasonable reason to do so.  That is all that I did.  It was really a simple and easy idea to develop once it occurred to me.  After explaining this concept, many people comment that it makes a lot of sense to them.  This is the hallmark of a good idea – it seems pretty simple and obvious once it is presented.   

Where did I get the idea?  Forty-one years of practice experience; many hundreds of hours of post-graduate training and education; successful personal treatment of my own Peyronies Disease; common sense, ingenuity and a little luck applied to basic anatomy and physiology; and, desperately looking for answers and different synergistic therapy concepts to help all the men I communicate with 365 days a year for the last eight years.  Many therapeutic concepts and advancements that are currently endorsed and accepted by the medical community started outside it, although they were initially rejected and castigated because they did not originate from the “right” source.  My gentle manual penis stretching idea might be one of them – time will tell.

Did he try several methods with dozens of patients for each method and fail?

A complete explanation is available on the PDI website. 

Concerning the size of this study:   I am currently in discussion with the urology department of a leading U.S. medical school to investigate another therapy that is applicable to Peyronie’s disease treatment   The medical director of that institution suggested for the pilot study that we use 10 randomly chosen men with Peyronies Disease.  For my pilot study I worked with 10 randomly chosen men.  You see, ten is an acceptable number of subjects in the early stages of research.  Additional information about my guidelines and protocol are presented at that link that Believer gave in his original post.  No one – certainly not me – has ever said I conduct classic research like a multimillion dollar university or a multibillion dollar pharmaceutical conglomerate.  All I have ever said is that I will leave the formal research to others who are capable of performing on that level, and I will attempt to put together ideas and information from existing published research, as well as my own knowledge, training, experience and ingenuity, to find what helps the Peyronies Disease of men who choose  to participate.  No guarantees can be offered, and there can never to a promise of “cure.”   

Within the PDI concept a man attempts to initiate a healing response by rehabilitating his tissue using a wide variety of synergistic Alternative Medicine therapies.    As we point out on the PDI website, “We do not attempt to treat the Peyronies Disease scar, we attempt to rehabilitate the man who has the Peyronies Disease scar so he is better able to heal it.”   Every man who has ever been diagnosed with Peyronie’s disease was told by his MD to come back in six months to determine if his problem has cleared up – meaning, healed.    Everyone understands that the Peyronies Disease scar goes away on its own – heals – in a percentage of cases.  The PDI treatment concept is to do all that is possible to make sure each man heals his Peyronies Disease scar to the best of his ability.  This is the basis of what is explained in detail on the PDI site.   

The gentle manual penis stretching technique is a part of that effort to promote natural tissue repair and healing; manual stretching is not all that is suggested, and it is not all that can be done to promote scar repair. This overview for recovery from Peyronies Disease is a world of difference that separates the standard medical approach and the Alternative Medicine approach of PDI.     

Did he just have the gods of penis health smile down upon him so he got right on the first attempt what has elluded mankind for several hundred years?

Who said I got it “right on the first attempt?”   I never said that; I never wrote that anywhere.  Those are not my words, but your own. 

What percent of patients respond, 100%

I think it is safe to say that no drug, medical technique or procedure used to treat any medical problem has even shown to be 100% successful.  Viagra works for only 60-75% of men.  Aspirin and Ex-Lax and insulin do not work for everyone.  A simple shot of Novocain from the dentist does not work 100% of the time.  None of the drugs used to treat Peyronie’s disease (verapamil, POTABA, cholchicine, etc.) work 100% of the time – most of them far, far from 100%.   

Did he use objective measurements to verify the results

Yes, to the extent that was possible.   Just as pain is not objective, but subjective, not everything studied in the medical area can be studied objectively.  I did the best I could under the circumstances I find myself – and the men with Peyronies Disease who find me.  The alternative would be to do nothing. There is currently too much “nothing” being done for Peyronies Disease. 

Is it better to do the best you can and work within certain reasonable limitations, or to do nothing and make no contribution to the body of Peyronies Disease knowledge and therapy?   I chose to do the best I can under the circumstances of having limited funds and reliance on limited access and unreliable cooperation from a worldwide community of men with Peyronies Disease. 

My efforts and the results of men who use the PDI concepts are not perfect, but nothing in life is 100%.  We are pleased with good progress with many cases of Peyronies Disease who use the PDI concepts.

If so why aren't the particulars of that data displayed in large bold flashing print

The results and data are prominently reported on the website as follows:       

“Of the 10 men participating in our research project:
     8 – saw moderate to significant improvement of curvature,
     2 – saw no progress with their curvature, and
     10 – (100%) saw moderate to marked improvement of sexual ability”

Has he even met enough Peyronies Disease patients in person during his life-time to comprise a decent study assuming he had the design criteria for such a study

I do not know what a “decent” number of Peyronie’s disease patients are. 

In my early years practicing in holistic medical clinics I encountered men with Peyronies Disease periodically, but none of the MDs or I had much to offer them.  It was only after I developed my own Peyronies Disease that I threw myself into the subject for my own selfish reasons.  Since 2002 I have almost exclusively worked with Peyronies Disease cases from around the world.  I consult with 6-12 men daily via phone and email concerning Alternative Medicine treatment to increase their ability to heal and repair the Peyronies Disease lesion. 

Because I am conducting an Alternative Medicine website intended for men who are currently under the care of a medical doctor – a stipulation we make consistently throughout the PDI website – it is not necessary that I examine or diagnose each case.  When men come to me in the PDI website, they are already diagnosed. 

My first contact with most men I work with is through my book, “Peyronie’s Disease Handbook.”    This book presents a wide array of information to increase the odds of recovery from Peyronies Disease, but none is more important than teaching men how to determine the size, shape, density and surface quality of each scar they have.  Each man is instructed how to document this vital data for his own use; it is not necessary or practical that I personally do so. Subsequently, I spend considerable time and effort answering questions about Peyronies Disease care from around the world.   This is how I make contact with thousands of men with Peyronies Disease.   

In using Alternative Medicine the treatment effort is focused not to the condition, but to the individual needs of the person who has the condition to facilitate the best healing response can occur.   My purpose and effort is spent teaching men how to become an expert in their own personal condition to enable them to effectively manage their own Alternative Medicine rehabilitation.   If this can be accomplished then the body should demonstrate an increased ability to heal the Peyronies Disease, just as every MD hopes will happen during the initial six months of waiting. 

One of the reasons that men with Peyronies Disease are so distraught with their current state of affairs is that there is so little medical help available to them.  This is so because it has been put into our heads by the drug industry that we must wait for the drug industry to conduct multimillion dollar studies to save us from Peyronies Disease.  But, their research is slow and generally not forthcoming, and essentially non-existent for Alternative Medicine treatment because of its low profit potential.  I have worked with far too many men who speak of suicide because of their Peyronies Disease, or contemplate penis amputation because of multiple surgeries that have gone bad, or families that are ruined – because they fail to recognize that there are additional options available other than drugs and surgery. 

The body is designed to heal itself.  Some cancers heal without medicine.  Broken bones, pneumonia and tuberculosis can heal without medicine.   Why should it seem so impossible or crazy that a man can heal his own Peyronies Disease?  All MDs know that the body can heal Peyronies Disease, right?  If not, then what is “come back in six months and we will see if your Peyronies Disease goes away” all about?   When a man has his Peyronies Disease just go away during that first 6-12 months that is an example of the body healing the Peyronies Disease scar, right?  A lucky percent of men have their Peyronies Disease just go away without doing anything about it.  That is why MDs tell men to return later to see if the Peyronies Disease did not just spontaneously resolve – heal – itself.  For this reason my direct contact and intervention is not what Alternative Medicine treatment is all about.  A medical doctor who prescribes drugs or contemplates surgery certainly needs to have his/her patient in the office; my work is different.

The goal of the PDI concept is both simple and complex:  To discover what a man must do to boost his immune response to encourage his Peyronies Disease to heal.  With this idea in mind, my PDI website advocates various synergistic methods to determine if it is possible to help men heal their own Peyronies Disease scar.   This can be done in a long distance situation with the owner of the Peyronies Disease scar in control of his situation, not me.

Does he just assume this might work, and if so why didn't he clearly state that 

I state my case clearly in my website.  For a review of the information concerning theory, philosophy and methods for Alternative Medicine treatment of Peyronie’s disease, as well as information about the gentle manual penis stretching method, I invite you to visit the Peyronie’s Disease Institute website.   The gentle manual penis stretching method I developed is just one small part of the overall approach a man can use to help his body heal his Peyronies Disease problem. 

Because Peyronie’s disease is such a complex and tenacious problem to treat it is necessary, in my experience, to use a wide variety of therapies to address the sluggish immune response from as many different angles and levels as possible – all at the same time.  PDI does not present magic cures and guaranteed results, only hard work and extended therapy to stimulate and support a healing response that takes time and reinforcement to complete.

The entire thing just leaves me shaking my head !

I hope this information helps.  TRH 

[Angus]

    A suggestion to all that are letting this degenerate into personal attacks and name-calling: please read the "Read This First" section at the top of this forum. The rules of the forum are listed there numerically. These are not suggestions on how to behave: they are rules. Conduct yourselves as gentlemen, please.

[boston blacky]

First let me correct a distortion Skjaldborg just made.  Lancaster did not suggest george is disparaging or offensive when george suggests various supplements.  Lancaster discussed two separate issues, neatly discussed in three paragraphs.  I was able to differentiate the two issues.  Skjaldborg you got your issues crossed or you distorted intentionally and that touches on the original issue of pettyness and triteness.  And Lancasters second issue was the myriad anecdotal supplements that keep getting resurrected here.  

After finding this forum today I decided to join.  I have read numerous posts by george.  Most of his herb and spices and a few esoteric supplements are anecdotaly effective.  But perhaps taken all together they can have some anti fibrotic effect.  I doubt it though.  

We need real medicine not mickey mouse supplements.  I salute george and others for their daily research and daily posting of  real "effective" treatments for fibrosis not localized in the penis.  But I think your time would be better spent sending your research to research labs that are affiliated with men's urology issues.  To wit; I found good research being done with idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis that increases mmps.  I forwarded the research papers to a local university and basically asked them to ride the "coat tails" of the successful lung fibrosis treatment by transferring the application to penile fibrosis.  I got a positive response back and now I am at the front of the list, when they open up trials.  My unit may fall off before that happens but hey, I am at the front of the line all the same.  I also got a positive response from a research lab in NC doing work increasing i(nos) expression.  I peruse clinicaltrials.gov and centerwatch.com for key words like MMPs, fibrosis, long term NO donors, cytokines, you get the point.  Then I compile what I need to and send that along to Dr. Levine, Dr. Munnarez, Dr. Carson, universities, hospitals etc.  I easily find out who is on their research team for men's urinary health and I c.c. them also.  I have respectfully gotten good feedback and I expect my activity will one day start a penile fibrosis trial using the same resources tried for cardiac fibrosis or pulmonary fibrosis etc.  I would strongly encourage everyone here to be more vocal in this manner instead of perpetuating petty posts. 

Lancaster, I am in Boston, and we have a doctor here who does the treatment you questioned about.  I will comment on that in you steroid post.  I can see tim now, looking up my ip address to verify I am in MA.  Gotta poke fun at tim's ballet detective work.

[Skjaldborg]

@Lancaster,

Your argument is a bit muddled in that George is not disparaging or offensive when he suggests various supplements to other members. The bee sting poster, on the other hand, used ad hominem attacks to belittle anyone who did not agree with him. To my knowledge, the supplements George suggests have been proven SAFE for other purposes, unlike bee stings, which have not.

Also, there's nothing unethical about recommending treatment one hasn't personally tried. I don't use VED or viagra but I recommend that users new to this forum ask their urologists (or other forum members) about these treatment options because they have been proven safe and effective for other people. Many members will recommend surgery if someone has severe symptoms, although they may not have had surgery themselves.

This forum is one of the better-run sites I have seen precisely because it is well moderated. I am closed minded when it comes to posters pushing clearly dubious treatments (treatments that have no medical studies purporting beneficial treatment of anything) because they do a disservice to those who visit this forum seeking information.

Best,

Skjald

[Lancaster]

I don't think Hawk bans users for personal petty reasons.
If you would like to offer substantive discussion on Peyronie's Disease, it is welcomed.

Oh, hawk has had his moments of pettiness. 

And chiguy, if you yourself would like to offer substantive discussion on tunica fibrosis how about you
do some research and get back to us on this issue http://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,1063.0.html

-thank you

[chiguy]

Lancaster,

I don't think Hawk bans users for personal petty reasons. In fact, I think Hawk has much better things to do with his time. This is after all, an internet forum. We don't know each other and we probably will never know each other on a personal level. Therefore, I think this argument you make is without merit.

I think the point that the other forum members made regarding the bee venom posts are twofold. One, beestings are extremely dangerous, especially on a level mentioned by the poster of the beesting cure. There is a ton of work to be done regarding any treatment since there is no scientific data, control groups, etc. Two, this forum continues to grow and survive after several years. This is because forum members continue to post legitimate topics and threads. Compare that to other internet medical forums and all you will find is garbage, spam, and ridiculous posts from people that have nothing better to do with their time.

If you would like to offer substantive discussion on Peyronie's Disease, it is welcomed. There are many sufferers and although not too many people post on this forum, plenty of people read it on a daily basis.

[Lancaster]

What troubles me, is that instead of direction and guidance from you guys, i see mostly jokes, triteness, dismissals, and then ultimately the "warnings" of censure when someone exacerbated by your coldness becomes frustrated and "cocky". i've witnessed this same scenario in the past with others.

And I too have witnessed the same trite dismissive bad behavior also.  This group and the moderator can be very petty.  I have seen hawk ban good members because of his own personal petty reasons...shame!  I have seen tim do google searches and wrongfully accuse members of being ballet enthusiasts...oh shame again.

I am very open to beestings posts.  I have known for years that bee keepers have less incidence of arthritus.  I am not going to get myself repeatedly stung but I might think of trying a supplement such as royal jelly.  

Let's face it, there is absolutely no other treatment suggested here that will cure your cronic tunica albugenia fibrosis.  Skjaldborg, member george has suggested a battery of supplements over the years, none of which he takes himself and none of which will stop your tunica fibrosis.  I guess that puts george in the same category as beesting.  Skjaldborg, you are guilty as charged also.    

[Skjaldborg]

The bee venom poster in question was pushy and insulting (as lwillisjr noted). The treatment he was pushing is not backed up with medical studies and it could be dangerous to those with bee allergies. I guess that makes me close minded when it comes to offensive posting behavior and dubious treatments. Guilty as charged.

-Skjald

p.s. any advancements in Peyronie's treatments are going to be born out of good science and hard work, not an instant message from someone in an internet forum.