CAUSES of Peyronie's Disease - started 2005

[ocelot556]

I read an interview that was posted in 2003 (I posted the link somewhere on this board, I can access it if requested) which was essentially a roundtable discussion of doctors who specialized in sexual dysfunction. There was a DO, I believe, who claimed that androgen replacement actually reversed fibrosis in his patients who would not respond to viagra et al.

Now, I'm not sure why this hasn't been addressed more if that is the case, but for some mysterious reason there is a large resistance from medical establishment of using androgens/testosterone to treat anything, even in testing.

Although Jackp didn't see a difference in his Peyronies Disease with testosterone replacement, I assume, it is also assumed that Peyronies Disease has many different triggers. For some, perhaps having those androgens present could contribute to healing?

[newguy]

cowboyfood - I would say that although I do still take the core pentox, l-arginine and viagra, I have developed a somewhat 'scattergun' approach recently, using additional supplements that I think may hold anti inflammation and/or fibrosis effects, but have likely not previously been used to treat peyronies before by many people. I am hoping that as a community, we stumble across something that is of significant worth in the fight against peyronie's.

I too have really got back into running over recent months, and do feel that this has helped me both physically and mentally. I feel that a whole body and mind approach (exercise, oral treatments, ved) is the most sensible approach.

[young25]

I dont knw why everything is out of whack in my case... I am just 25  .. anyways I have started certain  medications to restart my system. I have yet not jumped on T replacement though I have read quite a few reports that T replacement does reverse fibrosis but have no idea about restart. My doc wants to restart my system considering my age.

s&s,

I can share my test results if you want, I have low T but high DHEA.

[newguy]

young25 - You could always give tongkat ali a try

[young25]

young25 - You could always give tongkat ali a try

I did & it gave me skin rashes & eczema. Stopping it cleared it  

[slowandsteady]

s&s,

I can share my test results if you want, I have low T but high DHEA.

Oh well, it would be nice if all of the data were neat and tidy. I suspect that here is a case where a larger sample size would help.

[Overcomer]

I fall into this category.  I had blood work done and my testosterone levels were below normal and I'm 24 years old.  There definitely has to be a connection because the condition commonly effects older men whose T levels aren't as high as when they were younger.  I mean Porn stars make a living doing it and you'd figure they'd all have Peyronie's from the wear and tear haha

Having skimmed over a few of the free abstracts on a few pay-per-view journal article sites, I noticed an interesting claim: That androgens actually supress the actions of wound healing in the penis, and when androgen levels are low, that "boost" to the healing process in the penis can cause peyronie's.

There is this study as well, part of which states that in castrated rats, collagen deposition during wound healing was increased: http://www.nature.com/labinvest/journal/v87/n9/full/3700627a.html

...How many here have had full hormonal profiles done? I have a uro who is interested in getting my blood work, finally, so I will find out soon if my testosterone levels are out of whack. But what do you all think? Could an androgen deficiency be the cause of some Peyronies Disease?

[ocelot556]

Yes, Overcomer. I am convinced that my peyronie's is caused by a short-term intake of propecia, which is designed to lower androgens (since androgens also cause hair loss). I think some moderately rough sexual intercourse during that time sent the body into "heal" mode, and without the androgens to inhibit the wound healing...viola, peyronie's.

My T is low, but within the normal range (the "normal" range is 300-1100 -- 25 years old with a 450 T level seems low to me!). I agree that Peyronie's affecting older men must have a correlation with the fact that T starts declining around middle-age. It's generally accepted in this forum that Peyronies Disease can affect people in different ways and through different mechanisms in the body. I don't think this is why EVERYONE suffers from it, but I think it's a reason why we see so many people well below the "standard" age for peyronie's.

And as an aside, if you watch a lot of porn (ahem...;>) you will notice that a lot of porn stars DO have some form of peyronie's, but I imagine they get plenty of "exercise" in that area of the body to keep up blood flow! :p

[newguy]

octelot556 - It may be the case that certain drugs can tip the balance somehow. I believe it would only occur in individuals already susceptible to developing such problems though, else there would be a peyronie's epidemic in people taking x,y,z drug.

[Wintercookie]

I believe in my case bending of a sub optimal erection during intercourse caused my Peyronies on several occasions.  It seems to me to be a vicious cycle, the more fibrosis the greater the loss of rigidity the more at risk of bending from the less than rigid penis causing more trauma.  However careful one may be when having intercourse it can so easily happen as I know all too well.

My father and brother also both have Dupuytrens Contracture, another fibrotic disorder of connective tissue, which the medical literature has suggested as being linked to Peyronies.  I also have arthritic knees which is another fibrotic disorder.  I have always regarded Peyronies Disease to be in my own mind Arthritis of the penis.

So I am convinced that I am rheumatically predisposed to fibrotic disorders and the trauma of bending my penis during intercourse to be the trigger for Peyronies.  

[newguy]

-  

You makes some good points Wintercookie, and many others have thought along similiar lines. I don't believe that anybody is certain to get peyronie's, but with a family background of related conditions is does make sense to me that you were more at risk.  

[hb]

My urologist told me a humorous story about Injections and Male Porn Stars. He had a patient who was continually injected by the Director of the Porn movie so that they could keep filming over a weekend. I'm sure the actor now has Peyronies or a curvature. This was with Caverject as opposed to Trimix.

Needless to say the actor ended up in the ER by Sunday night.  

[slowandsteady]

I found this study interesting, Effect of nitric oxide on the differentiation of fibroblasts into myofibroblasts in the Peyronie's fibrotic plaque and in its rat model (PMID 12446175):

The myofibroblast shares phenotypic features of both fibroblasts and smooth muscle cells. It plays a critical role in collagen deposition and wound healing and disappears by apoptosis when the wound is closed. Its abnormal persistence leads to hypertrophic scar formation and other fibrotic conditions. Myofibroblasts are present in the fibrotic plaque of the tunica albuginea (TA) of the penis in men with Peyronie's disease (Peyronies Disease), a localized fibrosis that is accompanied by a spontaneous induction of the inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS), also observed in the TGFbeta1-elicited, Peyronies Disease-like lesion in the rat model. iNOS expression counteracts fibrosis, by producing nitric oxide (NO) that reduces collagen deposition in part by neutralization of profibrotic reactive oxygen species. In this study we investigated whether fibroblast differentiation into myofibroblasts is enhanced in the human and rat Peyronies Disease-like plaque and in cultures of human tissue fibroblasts. We also examined whether NO reduces this cell differentiation and collagen synthesis. The myofibroblast content in the fibroblast population was measured by quantitative immunohistochemistry as the ratio between alpha-smooth muscle actin (ASMA; myofibroblast marker) and vimentin (general fibroblast marker) levels. We found that myofibroblast content was considerably increased in the human and TGFbeta1-induced rat plaques as compared to control TA. Inhibition of iNOS activity by chronic administration of L-iminoethyl-L-lysine to rats with TGFbeta1-induced TA lesion increased myofibroblast abundance and collagen I synthesis measured in plaque and TA homogenates from animals injected with a collagen I promoter construct driving the expression of beta-galactosidase. Fibroblast differentiation into myofibroblasts occurred with passage in the cell cultures from the human Peyronies Disease plaque, but was minimal in cultures from the TA. Induction of iNOS in Peyronies Disease and TA cultures with a cytokine cocktail and a NO donor, S-nitroso-N-acetyl penicillamine (SNAP), was detected by immunohistochemistry. Both treatments reduced the total number of cells and the number of ASMA positive cells, whereas only SNAP decreased collagen I immunostaining. These results support the hypotheses that myofibroblasts play a role in the development of the Peyronies Disease plaque and that the antifibrotic effects of NO may be mediated at least in part by the reduction of myofibroblast abundance and lead to a reduction in collagen I synthesis.

So, if I have this right:

• collagen type I is the main type that's over-expressed in Peyronies Disease
• the myofibroblast count is higher in Peyronies Disease
• lysine is bad since it increases myofibroblasts and collagen I
• nitric oxide is an antifibrotic
• nitric oxide's antifibrotic action might be due to it reducing the amount of fibroblasts
• less fibroblasts mean less collagen I

L-arginine increases nitric oxide, as does pycnogenol, and together they are synergistic. Niacin increases nitric oxide synthase activity, as does NAD+. Niacinamide prevents NAD depletion. Niacinamide is synergistic with NAC in inhibiting type II collagen induced arthritis.

s&s

[Hawk]

This is purely an anecdotal account, but I took large doses of Lysine prior to and after surgery for prostate cancer (just prior to onset of Peyronies).  Lysine and vitamin C are touted by some to interfere with the process of cancer metastasis.  Metastasis is the process by which cancer cells break down collagen to migrate through tissue (often blood vessel walls) to migrate to the other areas of the body.  While I have never seen the connection with Peyronies Disease I did know of lysine's connection with fortifying certain collagen and I suspected a connection with my Peyronies Disease.  I was also taking bimix injections during the end of my lysine supplementation.

I stopped all lysine and most vitamin C when I developed Peyronies Disease.

[skunkworks]

I found this study interesting, Effect of nitric oxide on the differentiation of fibroblasts into myofibroblasts in the Peyronie's fibrotic plaque and in its rat model (PMID 12446175):

I just want to say thanks because you have been posting some very interesting stuff recently.

Warning: Size of quote reduced in accordance with forum rule # 7 of NOT quoting entire posts (https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,6.0.html). - Hawk

[slowandsteady]

Thanks. I may be tilting at windmills, but I hope to come across something that makes a difference. And I like problem solving.

[skunkworks]

If you are still sexually functional at 80 would that not put you way ahead of most men in your age bracket, Peyronie's disease aside?

[Old Man]

skunkworks:

No, actually you would be surprised at the number of men who are in my age bracket that can still have sex with no problem. With the advent of the VED and its getting noised around the circle bull sessions, they seem to want to join the VED club and get active again. However, there a number of guys that can still get it up without the use of anything.

Of course, the ED drugs have become rather popular with us old guys too. I do not use any of them since I have the VEDs (three of them in fact) and just rely on them.

Old Man

[slowandsteady]

From this 2006 article in Uro Today:

The investigators found increased tissue levels of TGFβ and beta-catenin in diseased tissue compared with controls. Furthermore, a 10-fold increase of smooth muscle α-actin 2-fold increase of TGFβ 1/3 receptors, transglutaminase II, fibronectin, and HSPA47 in cultured fibroblasts derived from Peyronies Disease plaque tissue compared with controls. Western blot analysis confirmed these findings.

A 10-fold increase in smooth muscle α-actin seems like quite a bit. It might be worthwhile to see if there are any inhibitors of smooth muscle α-actin.

[slowandsteady]

It might be worthwhile to see if there are any inhibitors of smooth muscle α-actin.

Hmm, parthenolide seems to inhibit proliferation of vascular smooth muscle cells. It's a component of the feverfew plant, available as a supplement. People reviewing feverfew supplements on iHerb seem to be using it for migraines.

Another interesting finding is that insulin increases smooth muscle actin from this reference, and we have heard that diabetes worsens Peyronies Disease.

[slowandsteady]

From this article, DHEA Deficiencies in Autoimmunity:

A three-year study involving persons using DHEA supplements showed lower mortality risk, lower incidence of metabolic syndrome, reduced inflammation, improved wound healing, improved endothelial function, improved nerve tissue healing, improved sexual function, reduction of depression, improved cardiovascular health, increased metabolism of nutrients, lower lipid levels, reduced side effects of corticosteroid medications, and possible prevention of atherosclerosis. Conditions thought to be related to diminished levels of DHEA include inflammatory diseases, metabolic syndrome, cancer, osteoporosis and type II diabetes.

My DHEA-S has historically been low (about 50), though I got it up to about 150 taking 100mg of 7-keto DHEA daily though inconsistently, which is the form that raises DHEA levels without raising testosterone. I'm wondering if low DHEA is a trend on this forum.

edit: wow, I'm going in circles. I'd already posted about a possible Peyronies Disease/DHEA connection.

[slowandsteady]

It's Friday, so here's my theory of the day.

I read this article titled Potassium Deficiency as a Cause of Rheumatoid Arthritis.

There should be a lower concentration of potassium in blood plasma during RA. The National Health and Nutrition Survey-III has determined that of 39,695 people selected, there were 840 who said they had been diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis. Of these, 691 had their serum tested for potassium. Of that number 7.8% had less than 3.6 milliequivalents per liter, 34.7% between 3.6 and 4.0, 40.7% between 4.0 and 4.4, and 18.1% above 4.4. Only 18% appeared to be in the normal range. The samples were refrigerated and sent out to outside contract laboratories [22c]. Refrigerating blood increases the apparent amount when it is serum that is analyzed, especially if there is a delay in the analysis. In addition to that, arthritics lose potassium from the platelets as noted above. If some were misdiagnosed, had a remission since being diagnosed, or there was a longer than usual delay in analysis, it could account for the 18% seemingly normal. So this survey showed at least most arthritics low in potassium.

So, could a low dietary potassium intake be involved in Peyronies Disease? I'm not sure. My potassium levels have been 4.2 mmol/L and under for the past few years. Table salt can deplete potassium, as can diuretics.

Too much coffee depletes K according to this page:

A low-potassium syndrome may be involved with some of the symptoms associated with coffee abuse or withdrawal. Significant serum potassium drops occur at doses of 180 mg of caffeine, the equivalent of three average cups, or one or two strong cups. (Passmore).

I've always felt that coffee increases Peyronies Disease pain.

I'm going to try getting more potassium in my diet and limiting table salt. The first article recommended potassium chloride taken in fruit juice, and making sure that one's B1 (thiamine) intake is adequate.

[slowandsteady]

[moved to oral treatments forum]

[slowandsteady]

There is still the matter of an immune response in Peyronies Disease tissue though:

Purpose
We investigated the immunological features and possible autoimmune basis of Peyronie's disease.

Materials and Methods
The sera of 100 patients with Peyronie's disease were tested for circulating autoantibodies, including anti-penis antibodies, by indirect immunofluorescence. Antibody deposition and the immunological activity in Peyronie's plaque tissue from patients with early and long-standing disease were also assessed.

Results
Circulating anti-penis antibodies were not found in any patient although antinuclear antibodies were present in 24 percent. Patients with early Peyronie's disease had IgM antibody deposition, marked T lymphocytic and macrocytic infiltration in the sub-tunical space, increased expression of adhesion molecules by endothelial cells and an increased human lymphocyte antigen class 2 expression by the cellular infiltrate, indicating cellular immune activation.

Conclusions
These results show that some of the features of autoimmunity, in particular the cell mediated response, are present in Peyronie's disease.

The presence of antinuclear antibodies indicates that an autoimmune response is going on. From wikipedia, "Autoantibodies are present in low titers in the general population, but in about 5% of the population, their concentration is increased, and about half of this 5% have an autoimmune disease".

It would be nice to get the full text of this study to see what they considered normal and high levels of antinuclear antibodies. If they used the same criteria as the wikipedia article, then Peyronies Disease sufferers are 5x more likely than the general population to have elevated antinuclear antibody levels. On the other hand, if 24% had elevated antinuclear antibodies levels, then 76% did not, and autoimmunity by itself might not explain Peyronies Disease in the majority of cases.

Another study of 66 men with Peyronies Disease and 20 controls found:

Results
A fair percentage (75.8%) of the patients with Peyronie's disease exhibited at least one abnormal immunologic test, in comparison to only 10% among controls (chi-square = 27.8, df = 1; P < 0.0001). Alterations of cell-mediated immunity (multitest, LTT) were observed in 48.5% of patients, alterations of humoral immunity (lg) in 31.8%, and alterations of markers of autoimmune disorders (autoantibodies, complement activation) in 37.9% of the cases.

Conclusions
Our results support the hypothesis that there is some involvement of the immune system in the pathogenesis of Peyronie's disease, although the available data still appear to be insufficient to formulate a definite pathogenetic hypothesis.

A third study concluded:

We have not found any significant association between the serum markers of collagen diseases in patients with Peyronie's disease, except the rheumatoid hemagglutination test (Waaler-Rose).

This 2006 Russian study (PMID 16708586) found:

Patients with Peyronies Disease were found to carry chronic infection with type II herpes significantly more frequently. There was a significant association of Peyronies Disease with HLA-antigen B8 with high percentage of diagnostic titers of antinuclear antibodies. In vitro effect of intron A and verapamil was found to be dose- and time-dependent. Verapamil has a narrow range of dose-dependence and cytotoxicity in high concentrations. Combined treatment raised the proportion of good results while that of satisfactory outcomes decreased. Viral infection may be involved in pathogenesis of Peyronies Disease. This infection may alter mechanisms of immune regulation and start of autoimmune process in predisposed patients. Combination of magnetolaser therapy with intron A injections is an effective method of acute Peyronies Disease treatment. The addition of specific antiviral therapy raises treatment efficacy by action on one of pathogenetic mechanisms of the disease.

Interesting about the herpes type II association. Are people with autoimmune tendencies more likely to suffer viral infections? If so, that might support the hypothesis of a herpes type II link with Peyronies Disease.

s&s

[slowandsteady]

If herpes type II is involved in Peyronies Disease, one might expect to see interventions that have shown themselves to be useful against Peyronies Disease to also be useful against the virus. Let's look at acety-l-carnitine and vitamin E.

Acetyl-l-carnitine

• In pattent 5,314,689, we read: "It has now been found in a completely unexpected manner that L-acetyl-carnitine has a potent antiviral activity and can be used for treating viral infections, but also in particular for the prevention of such infections with surprising success".
• In the article Acetyl-L-Carnitine for CFS and Fibromyalgia, the author states:

  I suspect that the real reason many CFIDS patients who take lysine to prevent herpes outbreaks see their symptoms improve may be that this increases the body's carnitine production.
  
  In my experience, and that of other clinicians, taking supplemental L-carnitine has not been very helpful, and D-L-carnitine can actually worsen symptoms.11 Taking 500 milligrams of acetyl-L-carnitine 500 milligrams 2-3 times a day, however, can be very helpful. It has no side effects except for its cost, usually $1.00 for 1,000 milligrams. Adding 500 to 1,000 milligrams of L-lysine, which is cheaper, can decrease the amount of acetyl-L-carnitine you need to take by helping your body to make its own carnitine. The body also requires vitamin C (I recommend 200+ milligrams a day) and B-complex vitamins to make carnitine.12 Lysine, B Complex and Vitamin C are all present in the Energy Revitalization System vitamin powder. I suspect that most people can lower their dose of acetyl-L-carnitine after 12-16 weeks-for example, to 500 milligrams a day-or even stop it. Any brand is fine as long as it is pure acetyl-L-carnitine.

• In PMID 16120381, people with HIV on antiretrovirals saw an "increase the number of CD4 cells and reduce lymphocyte apoptosis"

Vitamin E:

• In PMID 12450904, low vitamin E is associated with an increase in herpes infections among those receiving stem cells
• Vitamin E is suggested for herpes according to wikipedia in MID 16813459 and PMID 16405618.

We might add DHEA to the list too, which I've found moderately helpful. It appears to be an immune modulator.

s&s

[slowandsteady]

DMSO was shown to have anti-herpes properties (PMID 12052246).

[slowandsteady]

It turns out that curcumin, my all time most effective Peyronies Disease supplement, inhibits both type 1 and type 2 herpes according to this study.

Edit: by the way, my next supplement to try is red marine algae.

[slowandsteady]

The full text of a review paper Herpes simplex virus: Drug resistance and new treatment options using natural products is available.

[Skjaldborg]

S&S:

That curcumin stuff is apparently a cancer fighter too: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20091028/sc_nm/us_cancer_curry

I may have to try that stuff. It's oil soluble, right?

-Skjald

[slowandsteady]

Yep, I started taking curcumin to begin with because of how it lowers of cancer risk. In addition to its antiviral action, it's also a potent fibrosis blocker, so it's working for you on multiple levels.

It's very fat soluble and much more bioavailable in fat. Sources that complain about its poor bioavailability as a capsule are like people who drive their car into the water and complain that it doesn't work as well their boat. Dry vitamin D doesn't work that well either.

I mix curcumin in oil first and then pour the mixture into a beverage mixed with soy lecithin. I buy this bulk curcumin and take 1.2g in the morning.

In larger doses it can be an immunosuppressant. I thought its mechanism of action was a slight immunosuppression, but now I wonder if the antiviral aspects are more important.

Of course, I really don't know if Peyronies Disease is primarily viral in nature. I'm putting together an antiviral program, and I'll see how it compares to my former program. Fortunately, a lot of the interventions are the same, though I've stopped arginine and pycnogenol for this test and added lysine and quercetin for this test.

[slowandsteady]

There is another avenue of action of curcumin that might be important in Peyronies Disease, but that doesn't seem to involve viruses. From this report,

Kobylarz from the Mulhall laboratory at Cornell Medical Center isolated Peyronie's disease cells from human penises. They then looked at a special protein called p53. p53 is important to the life cycle of the cell because it helps tell the cell when it is permitted to die. p53 is normally located in the nucleus of the cell. But this group has found that in Peyronies Disease cells, p53 gets anchored in the cytoplasm of the cell and binds with another protein PARC. This effectively renders p53 non-functional. The overall effect is that the Peyronie's disease plaque cells multiply instead of dying, which leads to progression of Peyronies Disease. These data may lead in the future to the development of a drug treatment to turn on p53 and thus permit the Peyronie's disease cells to die preventing scar build up.

But, curcumin (and resveratrol) to the rescue. In the article Curcumin and resveratrol induce apoptosis and nuclear translocation and activation of p53 in human neuroblastoma (PMID 15161054):

RESULTS: Treatment induced a dose- and time-dependent decrease in cell viability, cell cycle arrest and induction of apoptosis. Treatment transiently up-regulated p53 expression and induced nuclear translocation of p53, followed by induction of p21(WAF-1/CIP-1) and Bax expression. CONCLUSION: Observations suggest that the cytotoxicity, cell cycle arrest and apoptosis induced by curcumin and resveratrol in NB cells may be mediated via functionally activated p53 and merit further study.

Curcumin was well tolerated in doses of 8g in a phase I study. Maybe more than 1.2g is called for.

s&s

edit: nuclear translocation of p53 is what healthy cells do when damaged to die (p53 goes to the cells' mitochondria and eventually leads to cell death). The Peyronies Disease cells are not healthy and don't die because the p53 is locked up. Perhaps curcumin restores p53 so that cells that need to die do die.

[George999]

Interesting stuff curcumin ...

Scientists say curry compound kills cancer cells

Too bad many of its beneficial properties get toasted in the digestive system.  - George

OOPS - My apologies, I missed the fact that Skjaldborg already posted this.  

[George999]

Perhaps Hawk could excise this whole string of posts and move it to a curcumin thread in the oral treatments section.  It has sort of blossomed here in the wrong place with all sorts of useful information and thoughts and would be better preserved within its own thread under the correct category since most of the posts have little to do with the "causes" category.  - George

[slowandsteady]

Perhaps Hawk could excise this whole string of posts and move it to a curcumin thread in the oral treatments section.

Yes please.

Edit: new thread here.

[GaryNC]

My peyroies came two phases in life.  I must admit that as a young man age 20 I was too rough with my favorite toy.  I started to get some curveature to the right and some plaques started and would go away and another etc for a year or so.  I was stable for a number of years and then noticed some pain and new plaque.  I also noticed after sex or upon waking up with a huge erection that I had small spots in my penis that were holding high pressure blood.  When I stretched and massaged my penis on the tender area this went away.  Any injury can start peyronies.  I did not realize I could get one while sleeping until I found this.  

[newguy]

My peyroies came two phases in life.  I must admit that as a young man age 20 I was too rough with my favorite toy.  I started to get some curveature to the right and some plaques started and would go away and another etc for a year or so.  I was stable for a number of years and then noticed some pain and new plaque.  I also noticed after sex or upon waking up with a huge erection that I had small spots in my penis that were holding high pressure blood.  When I stretched and massaged my penis on the tender area this went away.  Any injury can start peyronies.  I did not realize I could get one while sleeping until I found this.

What's the current states of your plaque and curvature? Are you taking any presciptions treatments for it, or supplements etc?

[chiguy]

Each day I become more and more convinced propecia, the hair loss pill, is partially responsible for peyronie's and ED in some males. There are far too many on it, who are young like me, that have either peyronie's, ED, or both.

When I see Dr. Levine I am going to ask him about the connection. In the meantime, I decided today to stop taking propecia. I would rather lose some of my hair then worry about the effect on my sexual function.

I was reading the propecia side effects forum on the web, and hopefully when I stop taking the pill, I am able to get fuller, stronger erections. The crazy thing is that Merck doesn't admit that these side effects are harmful and of course has done nothing to stop them.

[slowandsteady]

No propecia here, for another data point.

[Ironman]

Hi friends,
I gottem both, Peyronies Disease, and Duy... Here's how I gottem. I am a pianist. Over the years I played very difficult "stride" style pieces, which require the left hand to stretch alot. Indeed, the Duy is in my left had. In addition I play guitar, and, emulating the great Allan Holdswroth, I played, and still do, riffs which require unusual stretching. THis stress, I am sure, damaged the tissue in my left palm, and the resulting "scar" is merely my immune defence against chronic injury. Luckily, my condition here does not cause a contraction and I can still play both instruments, and joint pain is more of a problem than DUY.

As for Peyronies Disease .. well, I'm anonymous so here goes ... I wank, or used to in an unusual way. Rubbing against the bed--not with the hand. Or, humping the mattress. I won't discuss my psychic issues, but I used porn to "cause" arousal--in one period peaking in my 40s I wanked several times a day. Time passed, I grew older. Real love seemed out of reach and, even as I write this, it's been since 94 since I had real sex with a real woman. (I'm 61) In 2007 I had a 3 month wank-fast, for reasons beyond the "scope" of this post, tho nothing physiological, and when I resumed the "self-abuse" (Peyronies give new meaning to that phrase), I felt a pinching pain, and over the next months the upward curve increased. Note, my wanking style, "", rarely resulted in me even seeing my erect penis. If a curve had been nascent I didn't see, nor feel, in a flaccid state, anything. The frequency of wanking, and the fact that my penis was under my weight, crushed more or less against the mattress, I am sure, was the tipping point in my condition.

These injuries, their co-relation, of course, imply that the sufferer has a predisposition to these "diseases"--Please NOTE, I see Peyronies and Duypoytrens both as symptoms of a grander underlying immune disorder--or, is it a GOOD THING? a protection, albeit an overcompensation, against, well, yet more abuse--and so I call them "conditions, not diseases.

Recently a compound curve to the left has emerged, from a mild listing. A strong indent causes the curve and I think I can feel fibroid under the penis. Waking (frequently) overnights to pee, when I have a slight tumescence from a full or full-feeling bladder, I PEE LEFTWARD. THis is, at this point, more alarming than the condition (Peyronies). THe implication is that the urethra is being impinged, at least when the penis is slightly with blood. The leftward stream is gone when I pee while the penis is "cold", devoid of tumescence.

It is disheartening to see a worsening of one's condition, but I have not read anything about Peyronies Disease affecting the ability to pee. THis potential, to me, elevated the problem well beyond an "erectile disorder".

Thanks for reading, who ever, and, as PBS's Tavis Smiley says, Keep the Faith ...

[chiguy]

Some members do complain of urinary problems along with peyronie's. Most doctors say that the plaque won't reach the urethra. A lot of times the anxiety over the changes to your male systems causes an increase in urination and you start to notice things that you didn't before (such as peeing leftward).

I myself am 24 and wake once a night to urinate, but I have done this for years. They say vitamin E relaxes the bladder also, but if that's the case, mine should never awaken.

[slowandsteady]

Ironman, some of what you describe sounds like a touch of OCD. We've discussed using niacin and taurine for Peyronies Disease in this thread. One benefit of niacin (as niacinamide) is for anxiety/OCD. I've had persistent low level anxiety over the years, and a touch of OCD (biting my tongue, for example). With niacinamide (I take 1 gram in the morning), the anxiety is just not there, and it doesn't even occur to me to bite my tongue when nervous.

[BentYoung]

Ironman,

I would have to agree completely that this is OCD related. I went through similar things in my childhood - and consequently now also have Peyronie's and urinary spraying. My OCD is just as prevalent today but centered completely around mental rumination now.  

[Ironman]

Thank you guys for your replies. I don't currently feel under sway of OCD. Ma's death last summer, and an ensuing degree of anxiety I never knew before that, set me straight OCD-wise. Not to mention, aging itself, with or without the humbling condition, works wonders for old neuroses. THe thawts one needs to make in order to wank using porn, or even conjure up old and however dear memories, seemed not worth the sacrifice of a hard-won equanimity. So I wait for love, and a treatment of some sort for Peyronies Disease. Love-wise, I hope that I meet a woman who perhaps enjoys sex not wholly dependent on the usual manuevers. For playing music, in addition to its obvious pleasures, has given me good hands...

[falcone]

Would you think that the procedure to freeze off genital warts on the skin on the shaft of an uncircumcised penis could cause damage in the layers beneath and therefore peyronie's?

[GaryNC]

I was looking at the ages of the men here and the age of onset of peyronies disease.  I got my pyronies through an injury as a young man.  I noticed than many men here got the disease in their 50's.  I realize the older you get the more likely something is likely to happen to you as a matter of odds.  Just wondering if a lower hormone level might be involved as a factor in the onset of peyronies disease.  I have been taking a male hormone supplement for a few years now.  I am 53.  The hair grew back on my legs and I have erections while sleeping again.  The proper hormone level and night time erections might help the penis stay healthy.  If the hair is missing on your legs you probably have a hormone issue.  

[BrooksBro]

Interesting thought.  "Hormones" covers a lot of territory.  To some, it means testosterone, while it may be different to other people.  I started taking thyroid hormones about 1 year before developing peyronie's.  Those hormones greatly improved my libido.  Perhaps if I had not corrected the hypothyroid condition, I might not have developed peyronie's.  Even if there was, I don't plan to stop taking the thyroid hormones.

I learned, among endocrinologists, there is not an accepted level of testosterone below which mandates treatment.  As you described your own situation, is sometimes more important to look at the whole picture than to rely solely on a number from a test.  At least with thyroid levels, there are agreed upon treatment thresholds.

[George999]

Or maybe whatever it is that is CAUSING the hormone levels to be abnormal is ALSO causing the Peyronie's?  There are so many possibilities as to how these issues could be interlinked, it boggles the mind.  - George

[cowboyfood]

Or maybe whatever it is that is CAUSING the hormone levels to be abnormal is ALSO causing the Peyronie's?  There are so many possibilities as to how these issues could be interlinked, it boggles the mind.  - George

Exactly, Cause and Effect assertions are tough to defend.  That is why casual cause and effect arguments on anything other than very simple observations can be destroyed quickly.

[BrooksBro]

In a recent post, I wrote there was not an agreed upon threshold for testosterone treatment.  My statement was not correct.  More importantly for those taking viagra, it appears it is highly important to have a satsfactory testosterone level.

On slide #4 of Dr. Levine's webcast - What to do when PDE 5 Inhibitors Fail: Combination Therapy and Other Options   - http://webcasts.prous.com/AUA2007/pop_up_bio.asp?sid=163&id=288&q=auto&v=auto&webcast=course01&CID=&CLID=2# - he points out poor viagra response when the total testosterone level is less than 400.  When the testosterone level was treated to achieve a higher level, viagra was effective.

This article cites references ranges by age groups.
http://www.mens-hormonal-health.com/normal-testosterone-levels-in-men.html

[jackp]

poor viagra response when the total testosterone level is less than 400.  When the testosterone level was treated to achieve a higher level, viagra was effective

That was not what happend to me. I got my testosterone to the top of the lab total range. None of the ED treatments worked for me. I felt better but no change in ED.

Jackp