ORAL TREATMENTS - GENERAL - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements

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soxfan


Hawk,

I know my source from my steroid using days and he simply caps the tadalafil powder.He runs a clean operation and all of his product is lab tested. :)

Cheers.

gibson101

Gents

Just would like to post on my development. I experienced a hardening penis and shortening after attempting something called jelqing 3months ago. I finally only got a pentox perscription about 3 weeks ago. I have seen improvments since then...i.e better/softer flaccid hang + fuller erection. Before the pentox I had been taking 1/4 10mg cialis daily which did not have the same effect as its had since ive started the pentox. I will be gettin the arginine soon to add that to the mix. I know there had been some doubts to pudders reports on this matter but I am experiencing the same and keeping my faith up!!! :) I have developed a bizaar lump on my lower back though since taking pentox that I think is some kind of blood clot which I will be getting checked out. But that is the only side effect so far.

Hope you are all improving :)

Gibson

ComeBacKid

Hey Gibson,

Glad to hear of your improvements on pentox, yes you should get the lump on your back checked out.  As I told you and others have stated, I noticed the increased flaccid hang, and fuller erections.  I believe these effects are from the blood thinning effects that allow the blood to fill up in the penis better.  Anyway just stick with the pentox for now, I'm approaching the 3 month mark now.

ComeBackid

Liam

It is hard to imagine Pentox causing a lump on your back.  By all means, get it checked out.

Remember, there isn't an indication of cause and effect, just because two things happen in the same time frame.  

I drank bloody marys and the Gators won.  If I drink bloody marys during a game, the Gators can't lose.   Sounds like a plan.

Liam
"I don't ask why patients lie, I just assume they all do."
House

mark501

There is a new form of of L-Carnitine. I believe it is an ester of  Propionyl L-carnitine bound to Glycine, an amino acid.  The one source I have found so far is quite a bit more costly per gram than the propionyl L-carntine (PLCAR powder).  The new product is called GPLG.   In a PubMed report of 1992 from Kaohsiung Medical College in Taiwan, they note a decreased percentage of glycine (and alanine) in Peyronie's Disease (in tunica albuginea) which implies abnormal composition of collagen or presence of noncollagen protein. Has anyone on the forum been taking the PLCAR powder? Any side effects? Has anyone been taking L-Glycine supplements to treat peyronie's? Mark501

myrddin

Quote from: mark501 on February 27, 2007, 11:18:32 AM
Has anyone on the forum been taking the PLCAR powder? Any side effects? Has anyone been taking L-Glycine supplements to treat peyronie's? Mark501
Back in December/January I took a bottle of GPLC capsules (500mg 2x/day) just to try it in place of ALC for a while.  I only took it for about a month then ran out.  Nothing dramatic happened, nothing worse or better, during that time.  I decided to go back to ALC because I saw nothing to justify the premium price I'd pay if I took it long term.  If I saw further studies showing the effectiveness of Glycine in Peyronie's, I'd try it again.  The price isn't that much more than ALC, and if it proves to be seriously effective, it would be worth it.

Griswold

I first saw the effects of Peyronies about three years ago.  I went to a urologist and he said the usual: no cure and try vitamin E.  After much stress and frustration I sam no inprovement, only things getting worse.  I decided to try some things on my own and did some research.  I decided to try a combination of VariCare (contains Butcher's Broom, Horse Chestnut, and Gotu Kola) and Bromelain.  I guess the thinking is that the VariCare helps circulation and the Brmelain helps to reduce the plaque.  The dosing of the Bromelain is pretty high - I tried this for 30 to 45 days, took a break for a month or so and then tried another round of the same dosage.  I started to notice immediate improvement, and the pain, indentations, and curvature continued to improve.  I went about a year with no worsening or symptoms, until recently when I noticed some indications.  I'm going to try the same round of VariCare and Bromelain and see what happens.

Is there anything new out there?  Is there any truth to Pyrotabs?  Does the pump help with strengthening or restoring lost length?

George999

The best thing you can do is to scout around and review the past posts on this forum.  But I will tell you straight up, in my experience full spectrum vitamin E helps, bromelain and horse chestnut should be helpful (but horse chestnut carries some risks, ginkgo is probably a bit safer), I don't know about butcher's broom or gotu kola off the top of my head.  Pyrotabs are a rip off, don't go there.  The pump (VED) is very legitimate and many are finding it helpful, you can learn more about it on this forum.

- George

drtedlucas

 :(  Wonderful to find this group.  I have heard a lot about a Dr. Lu in San Francisco. Does anyone have his contact information?

Thanks.

Ted

othello

Has anyone had any experience with Pentoxifylline (or Trental)? See article attached.

I contacted Dr Lue recently and he said:

"We have 20 out of 85 that showed a reduction of calcium deposit and scar tissue after taking the medication for 6-12 months."

I also recently found this site, which looks encouraging: http://www.auxilium.com/pipeline_peyronies.html.

They seem to think our condition is related to Dupuytren's contracture - a condition that prevents you from opening your hand completely - a condition that my wife has!?!

Any comments?

Liam

Othello,

Thanks for posting.  You will find whole sections here discussing both meds dating back over one year.  There are some great insights here.  Visit the website and see the read only section of the forum.  Don't ever worry about posting old info,though.  It is a good reminder for us and maybe someone new will see it and get help.

Liam
"I don't ask why patients lie, I just assume they all do."
House

Hawk

Othello,

Welcome!

I wanted to add to what Liam said and encourage you to go to the SEARCH button near the top left side of the screen.  Type in the word you are interested in and put a check mark in front of Show results as Messages.

Our read only highlights of the topics are here: https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/board,18.0.html
When you go there, it looks a bit like you are here on our main board but it is not for posting and has a condensed highlights that will bring you up to speed faster than reading all the posts here on the main board.

Our web site is at www.PeyroniesSociety.org
Prostatectomy 2004, radiation 2009, currently 70 yrs old
After pills, injections, VED - Dr Eid, Titan 22cm implant 8/7/18
Hawk - Updated 10/27/18 - Peyronies Society Forums

Hawk

Since L-Norvaline seems to play a role in preventing an intake of L-Arginine from being converted to arginase,
I am interested in trying L-Norvaline in conjunction with my L-Arginine intake.  I seem to recall it is somewhere between difficult and impossible to get L-Norvaline alone and that there is a product or two out their than include it with L-Arginine in a packaged formula.  I thought that product was Vasoflow but the site I checked did not mention L-Norvaline in connection with Vasflow.  Could anyone clear this up and give me a vendor with a good price?

Also this site on Vasoflow warns
QuoteConsult your healthcare professional before use if you are being treated for high blood pressure or erectile dysfunction.
We know how these warnings go, but can anyone deduce why the ED warning since arginine is a precursor nitric oxide and it helps ED?
http://customnutritionwarehouse.com/vasoflow-p-1224.html?osCsid=df52a71a54566d9d621b090fc1082e9e

Thanks
Prostatectomy 2004, radiation 2009, currently 70 yrs old
After pills, injections, VED - Dr Eid, Titan 22cm implant 8/7/18
Hawk - Updated 10/27/18 - Peyronies Society Forums

myrddin

This excellent article link brought up in the "Causes" thread,
Quote from: roadblock on March 15, 2007, 09:20:55 PM
http://www.nature.com/ijir/journal/v14/n5/full/3900873a.html
recommends some routes of treatment, one of which seems easy to try since it uses supplements:
QuoteS-adenosyl-L-methionine (SAMe) to increase glutathione levels, and polyenolphosphatidyl-choline (PPC), to reduce lipid peroxydation, are in clinical trials for liver cirrhosis (Wu J, Zern MA. Hepatic stellate cells: a target for the treatment of liver fibrosis. J Gastroent 2000; 35: 665-672). Our work on the antifibrotic effects of NO suggest that this strategy may be complemented with the stimulation of NO synthesis to destroy ROS (iNOS induction or gene transfer, long-acting NO donors, L-arginine).

I've never heard of combining SAM-e and PPC as a treatment before, but but they are widely-available supplements, and according to this article, it may be helpful to add them to some of our NO-increasing treatments.  Has anyone else here heard of using these supplements before, or tried them?  


I include the entire "suggested therapy for Peyronies Disease" section below for easy reference.  The numbers you see are references to supporting medical articles, and can be found in the original articled linked to at the top of this message.
QuoteBased on the information discussed, we believe that a therapy for Peyronies Disease based on the biochemical pathways responsible for fibrosis and contracture will be focused on some of the targets listed below. The basic principle is that although the intensification of plaque degradation by manipulation of collagenolysis is the most obvious goal, results to date suggest that collagen synthesis and tissue remodeling appear to be continue throughout the plaque life. This implies that the blockade of new collagen deposition through removal of pro-fibrotic factors can be an effective therapeutic strategy, since the endogenous collagenolytic and tissue repair mechanisms may then eliminate the existing excessive and/or abnormal fibers. The list of promising therapeutic targets to be investigated may include the following groups (see Figures 4 and 5, for potential targets):

NO/ROS (nitrosative/oxidative) ratio: the existing studies on antioxidant compounds (vitamin E, superoxide dismutase) to reduce ROS levels should be pursued and expanded with novel antioxidant agents. As an example, S-adenosyl-L-methionine (SAMe) to increase glutathione levels, and polyenolphosphatidyl-choline (PPC), to reduce lipid peroxydation, are in clinical trials for liver cirrhosis.142 Our work on the antifibrotic effects of NO suggest that this strategy may be complemented with the stimulation of NO synthesis to destroy ROS (iNOS induction or gene transfer,148,149 long-acting NO donors, L-arginine).

TGF1 action: since this gene appears to be one of the primary effectors of fibrosis and contracture, the use of antisense gene transfer to reduce its synthesis,143 antagonists to block interaction with its receptors (relaxin, synthetic peptides), neutralizing antibodies, or inhibitors of TGF1 activation (latency-associated peptide (LAP), inhibitors of tissue transglutaminase), should be explored in Peyronies Disease as in other fibrotic conditions.54,143 One interesting anti-TGF1 strategy is based on the use of decorin, already reported as having beneficial effects in the animal model.144

Endothelin/AT2 system: endothelin receptor blockers, angiotensin-converting enzyme (ACE) inhibitors and angiotensin (AT) receptor antagonists,54 may have effects similar to those reported for kidney and cardiac fibrosis, discussed above.

Myofibroblast apoptosis and differentiation: the NO-based therapy may induce myofibroblast apoptosis and the disappearance of the cell widely believed to intensify fibrosis and lead to the contracture. For this reason, inhibitors of fibroblast cell growth, such as colchicine,145 should be tested in conjunction with potential inhibitors of their differentiation, such as INF, effective for the treatment of keloid scars and inhibiting myofibroblast function, which has been recently applied for Peyronies Disease treatment.146

Collagen catabolism: an obvious target, though collagenase has not been successful.147,148 New avenues should include promotion of endogenous collagenase expression and blockers of endogenous metalloproteinase inhibitors,147 as well as more effective ways to deliver the enzyme (tissue uptake facilitators, electroporation.148

Inhibitors of post-translational processing of collagen: this strategy is being actively pursued for other fibrotic conditions, Therapies would include blocking proline hydroxylation, the cleavage of C- and N-terminal extension peptides by specific proteinases, and the inhibition of lysyl oxidase catalyzed inter- and intra-chain crosslinking, all steps operating in the deposition of collagenase-resistant fibers in fibrosis.54 A number of agents are currently in animal and clinical trials.

Inhibitors of elastin degradation: not yet explored, but possibly elastase inhibitors may be useful, particularly considering that elastin peptides resulting from its degradation may be strong ROS inducers.150 The integrity of elastic fibers is very important for the function of the TA.

Calcification and ossification: Calcium channel blockers other than verapamil151 may be effective, albeit by a mechanism more complex than simply preventing calcification. The considerable elevation of OSF-1 in the ossified Peyronies Disease plaque suggests that the blockade of this or related genes, or of the differentiation of stem cells in the plaque34 may avoid its irreversible hardening at late stages.

Ancillary pathways: the promotion of fibrin degradation by conventional fibrinolytic intervention may remove a persistent pro-fibrotic factor; the considerable MCP-1 expression in PD137,152 suggests that current anti-inflammatory approaches (corticosteroids, antihistamine) should be expanded to include novel non-corticosteroid anti-inflammatory agents. However, this may be counteractive if it blocks iNOS expression and NO synthesis. Thymosin , currently used for promoting wound healing,153,154 may have prospects in Peyronies Disease, based on the natural up-regulation of this gene observed in the Dupuytren's nodules.

Hawk

Myrddin,

Good post.  This needed to be referenced under this topic.  Thanks

I have not had time to study this but I venture to make one comment that may be applicable.

If one of the objectives is to raise gutathione levels with SAM-e, I think maybe it can be done as efficiently and MUCH cheaper with N-Acetyl Cysteine (NAC).  Our friends over at our sister site - Dupuytrens Society, frequently address NAC. http://www.dupuytren-online.info/other_therapies.html

I have taken it because it also shows clinical benefits for combating prostate cancer.

Here is an information page with a company I consider a bit pricey.  I post only as a quick find on some useful information about NAC and glutathione. http://www.lef.org/abstracts/codex/n-acetyl-cysteine_index.htm

Puritan Pride sells NAC at a fraction of the cost they sell SAMe
Prostatectomy 2004, radiation 2009, currently 70 yrs old
After pills, injections, VED - Dr Eid, Titan 22cm implant 8/7/18
Hawk - Updated 10/27/18 - Peyronies Society Forums

myrddin

Thanks Hawk.

Upon further research it appears there is also some evidence that "antifibrogenic action" may be gained from PPC.

Source:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=abstract&list_uids=12024107&query_hl=13&itool=pubmed_docsum
It analyzes DLPC, "the main phosphatidylcholine species of PPC", and finds that it "fully blocked TGF-beta1-induced increase in alpha1(I) procollagen mRNA expression and decreased collagen accumulation in media."

BTW, I'd never heard of PPC before, so here's a definition - "PPC is Polyenylphosphatidylcholine (PPC) is a soy extract that helps maintain the fluidity and integrity of cell membranes. PPC also promotes the break down of collagen in the liver; excess collagen can interfere in the detoxification process. PPC's health benefits may not only be to the liver but may also support the stomach, pancrea, and cardiovascular system."

Tim468

Vasoflow is described by the manufacturer at http://www.sann.net/vasoflow.html

It can be purchased more cheaply at by using Froogle or a similar search engine.

PPC should be useful, but as the authors point out, many therapies that "should" work do not seem to.

I believe that it might be that sometimes we are doing the right things to get better, but not enough to combat (successfully) the combination of factors that affect us. That is why I endorse the methods that some here epouse to take a more holistic approach to health and to increase the anti-oxidant therapy in general.

Tim
52, Peyronies Disease for 30 years, upward curve and some new lesions.

George999

Just to answer Hawk's question regarding VasoFlow and ED.  I think that the interactions that they are concerned about here have to do with the potential effect of VasoFlow on blood pressure.  Anyone with hypertension is likely to be taking BP meds and if they were to stuff themselves with VasoFlow (which is really a very optimized Arginine formula), they could conceivably drive their BP down dangerously.  And in the same manner, anyone with ED is likely to be taking Viagra or something akin to it.  Viagra, as I have mentioned before here, was initially developed as a BP drug and is known to lower BP.  The combination of BP and VF, if pursued over-aggressively could cause the same problem.  Also, I would like to point out that after trying MANY different forms of Arginine and having all kinds of problems and little benefit, I finally discovered VasoFlow.  It is really formulated for body builders, but since I am not really into body building, but am primarily taking it for Peyronies, I now take only one in the morning and one in the evening.  I find that to be quite sufficient and I find it much more effective and far less 'harsh' than the usual Arginine products.  And the way I take it, it is probably quite cost effective even though it would be expensive for a body builder who is going to be taking four to six of the capsules twice a day.  I also have hypertension and have found that as long as I watch my BP and make sure it doesn't go down to far, I can do OK.  In fact, I just encountered that issue (my systolic readings were sitting right on 50) and I quit some of my medication and that brought the systolics up to a more reasonable level of around 60.  So I would think that if you have ED you would need to watch out for excessive drops in BP when you take the Viagra and perhaps also be aware of increased risk of Priapism perhaps.  Other than that, I don't know what they might be concerned about.  Also, VF DOES contain L-Norvaline.  If you go back to the manufacturer website and punch 'Scientific Facts' on the side menu, it will take you to a review of the ingredients.

Jourdelune

Hello everybody,

I had read the posts from now to October 2006.

I don't really mind to read them all, but I am a bit curious.

Some people over there, take some supplement for years to treat their Peyronies Disease?  Any improvement? Stabilization?

My Peyronies Disease has start after an surgery in my belly. (2 years ago) I was taking MSM/Glucosamine/Choncroitide (spelling) for some carpal tunnel prevention. (I am a analyst developer) And some VIT E, here and there (usually after a hot and warm week-end).

The Uro diagnose a Peyronies Disease but cannot find scar tissues.  I have a little bend to the left and it could be painfull here and then, but I cannot stand to not having sex less then 10 hours a week. ( i really love it with my lover and my spirit cannot live without it)

Actually,  I take since 1 year and a half:

Vit E 400 UI (more of it is really hard to the liver and can alter his health in our old times)
Vit C 500mg X2 a day (PDI described the effect of it.  Over there I read that it could cause Peyronies Disease...  but on the web, I didn'T find any evidence of that)
Fish Oil ( here and there - I usually eat organic flax seed powder )

What had disturb me the most around the forum, is the warning around Vit C and MSM.  The PDI website claim they help and prove with some studies their claims.  The web give good mention about MSM and Peyronies Disease.

I cannot find anywhere the warning about it, but a lot of post of Rico about it.

Can you give me some source, some web page to verify the claim?

Last summer, I had tried the Fibrozym and Nattokinase enzyme system.  Took it for 4 month.  I add MSM and bromelain, for the last two month of that enzyme treatment. I didn't find any progression on my curve.  A bit more firm and last longer erection, but that's it.

I stop the enzyme and continue with Vit E, Vit C and MSM.

My Peyronies Disease is not worse than before taking supplement and is not better.

So for now on,  I will try the quercetin/bromelain (on PDI website), L-Arginine, Nattokinaze, Vit C, Vit E, MSM, Grape seed extract (that thing really have some good effect on the circulation system and it is nice for overall health - that will replace fish oil since I used flax powder seed) .  

I got a nice MSM cream that really give some freshness of my unit.  I put it on the Peyronies Disease side of it and i got some good feeling about that.  Since, I do that, my flaccid state seem to have improved.  A lot of time, my flacid unit looks like normal again.  But not when I am in erection. I used that since the last month.  

From 2 weeks, I got a severe irration, swelling and the like around the  top of the skin of my unit.  I read a lot on the internet to look for something that can reduce scar tissues or prevent them.  I found that Emu Oil seems to have a lot of thing to help me when I abuse sex.  That Emu Oil act like Copper Peptides but with no irritation at all.  Emu Oil act like DMSO in bringing anything deeper in the skin.  So, combining ViT E and Emu Oil around my scars is the real thing for me.  Perhaps I will add something to break the scar tissues in that oil to bring it deeper and safer than the DMSO/Copper combo.

But perhaps I should stop the Vit C and MSM...  

I should add Gingko/HGW has well.  ( I don't want to take chemical pharma patent to heal myself, so those herbs could give me same benefit )  But at least, I don't have erection problems, so perhaps I will add them after 2 month of my new cocktail :D.

I have seen a naturopath (don't know how to write it in english, but the people that do study on the natural supplement and their relations with the body) and she claims that to be really effective, any cure from supplement should have a "purification body" phase.  Which means like a 1 week vegetable/fruit diet and after that a formulation of herbs to help clean liver and kidney.  So perhaps, to raise the effectiveness of every think we take, we should clean our body with that thing then restart our Peyronies Disease cure.

I take Doctor's Best product (cheapest of all on iherbs.com) but I am not sure about the Consummer Report...  Perhaps, I should switch to NOW FOODs like George I had done.

To resume my post :

Something new that can help :

- MSM cream
- Emu Oil
- Grape Seed extract (will try it)
- Quercetin (will try it - I got a lof of uncle/aunt that died from cancer and that thing seems to prevent the formation of it)

Perhaps those are old solution that have not work for anybody...  

It is recommand by naturopath to take a "cleaning cure" of the body before taking a new regime of supplement to help their effectiveness.

Does MSM and VIT C really worsen the state? ( i have in the same condition for 2 years ) Please, give me fact and studies.

Please give me all the feedback you can,

Jourdelune

bodoo2u

I read on this forum where using Neprinol can be counterproductive. I couldn't find the posts again, but several people said that after improvement when using Neprinol, and then stopping, their conditions were worse than before. I bought a bottle and began using it, however, I am afraid to continue after reading that disturbing information.

Help me, please!!!!

Angus


  The forum has a powerful search function at the top right of the page. Type in Neprinol and the posts with "Neprinol" in them will appear. There will be many to read... I'm sure you'll get your answer there... and welcome to the forum!  

Tim468

Your post covered a lot of ground, so it will be harder to address it en toto.

Some thoughts:

A Naturopath may claim to have a way to help fix Peyronie's disease, but I do not believe her. For me, "data talks and bs walks". Have her show you one study that demonstrates efficacy to her methods - she will not be able to do so. However, there is merit to making some changes one step at a time to see if they are helpful.

Vitamin C is not of proven benefit, and may promote collagen formation (helps make scars). However, it is part of a good anti-oxidant diet, IMHO, and will be neutral or mildly helpful to your health, but not helpful for your Peyronies. I take 1000 mg a day using a timed release capsule that allows the Vit C to be given to me gradually, instead of dumped into my system all at once and hence urinated out an hour later.

I do not have an opinion about nattokinase etc. They seem like they should help but are of unproven benefit.

Although I cannot recommend Emu Oil or MSM, I personally use both alternate nights at bedtime to rub in. I have seen no benefit from either, but no harm. I might add that in the last thre emonths, my Peyronie's has stabilized after getting worse (clearly worse) off and on for the past two years. It is not superstition, but caution that makes me make changes to what I am doing now only very slowly!

Finally, although you may feel that your well-being depends on having sex 10 hours a week, you might want to rethink that. Nothing wrong with that at all, but it is also true that you can love somebody without acting sexually constantly.

Tim
52, Peyronies Disease for 30 years, upward curve and some new lesions.

bodoo2u

Quote from: Angus on April 03, 2007, 07:03:38 PM

  The forum has a powerful search function at the top right of the page. Type in Neprinol and the posts with "Neprinol" in them will appear. There will be many to read... I'm sure you'll get your answer there... and welcome to the forum!

Thank you, Angus.

George999

bodoo2u, I would suggest that any substance that is capable of in any way restraining or reversing Peyronies is also capable of creating a backlash or rebound effect when you stop it.  This would be especially true if one were taking the substance in large amounts.  I took Neprinol for a number of months, but not in the large amounts they advise.  My primary concern about Neprinol is the fact that it has never be subjected to independent testing and it is extremely expensive.  That is why I never consumed it in the quantities promoted for it.  For the same expenditure I can buy a whole range of potentially helpful supplements and make pretty extensive potentially helpful lifestyle changes as well.  And for me, as I have expressed many times before, there is some underlying condition that allows Peyronies to develop in the first place and as long as that is not addressed, no amount of efficacious drugs and/or supplements are going to cure the problem.  First you remove the causative factors, then you attack the specific issue of Peyronies.


George999

According to Wikipedia cAMP (Cyclic Adenosine MonoPhosphate) is a molecule that is important in many biological processes.  One of those process relates to Collagen, an important factor in Peyronies Disease.  Ironically, some of the same raw materials are used by the body for the production of both Collagen AND Nitric Oxide. And one of the roles of Nitric Oxide is to break down Collagen.  Thus this biological 'switch' determines whether our bodies are accumulating or dissolving collagen at any given point in time.  Since Peyronies plaques are composed largely of Collagen, achieving a reduction in Collagen would probably be 'a good thing'.

A number of substances in our body play a role in managing this switch.  They include such factors as: PDE-5, TGF-beta-1, Arginase, and cAMP.  Of these, all except cAMP have been discussed at length on this forum.  There are available supplements which modify the activity of each of these and in this post I would like to discuss issues surrounding cAMP which I suspect has been somewhat neglected.

The link between cAMP and Collagen is pointed out in this study:

"An increase in cAMP from 40 to 73 pmol/mg protein was effective in suppressing collagen production ..."
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=370713

So the question becomes "What supplements might I be taking that would increase cAMP levels in my body?

1) According to this study (and several others) Osthole contributes to an increase in tissue cAMP levels:

"Osthole (50 mumol/l) enhanced the increase in tissue cAMP and cGMP levels induced by forskolin and sodium nitroprusside, respectively, and in higher concentrations (100 and 250 mumol/l), itself increased markedly tissue cAMP and cGMP contents. Osthole (10-250 mol/l) inhibited the activity of cAMP and cGMP phosphodiesterases in a concentration-dependent manner. It is concluded that osthole exerts a non-specific relaxant effect on the trachealis by inhibiting the cAMP and cGMP phosphodiesterases."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8170504&dopt=Abstract

Note that the term "phosphodiesterases" refers to the breakdown of cAMP and cGMP, which when inhibited by Osthole results in the accumulation of cAMP and cGMP.  Osthole is a component of the herb Cnidium Monnieri which is an ingredient in SAN VasoFlow.  Note that one of its other effects is the relaxation of smooth muscle tissue.  Very interesting, no?  Note also the mention of Forskolin and how Forskolin and Osthole together create an enhanced effect.  Another study pointing out the relationship between Forskolin and cAMP follows.

2) According to this study Forskolin is a powerful upregulator of cAMP:

"But under the same conditions, the melanocortin 1 receptors of fair-skinned mice do not generate a strong signal. To bypass this "block" in the tanning pathway, the researchers gave the mice forskolin, one of several drugs that activates cAMP."
http://www.nci.nih.gov/ncicancerbulletin/NCI_Cancer_Bulletin_092606/allpages/print

Forskolin is a component of the Indian herb Coleus Forskohlii which is available as a stand alone supplement or as a component of several weight loss supplements (Forskolin also ramps up the metabolism of fat).  Forskolin should be used with care by those with hypertension or certain cardiac disorders caused by weakened heart muscle because it can, over time radically improve those conditions.  If you suffer from ANY serious medical condition other than Peyronies you should coordinate the use of Forskolin with your physician.

These are just two additional possible vectors that can be applied to Peyronies issues.  At this point I have been taking SAN VasoFlow for some time and just upped the dosage from two per day to three per day.  I credit it to some degree with the fact that I have been able to successfully get off of my blood pressure medication after 18 years of hypertension.  But diet and exercise were crucial in that achievement as well and I would suggest that they are crucial in successfully dealing with Peyronies as well.  I am convinced, for example, that aerobic exercise is a powerful up regulator of Nitric Oxide which is very beneficial over the long term in reigning in Peyronies.  Right now I am seriously looking at Forskolin and will probably be employing it as well.  I think it is pretty cool since it addresses not only cAMP, but it also has been shown to promote weight loss, lower blood pressure, contribute to cardiac health AND prevent urinary tract infections.  Thats a pretty impressive list!

- George

hopeful

Hello  This is Hopeful.... where did you get the MSN Creme?- DO you reccomend it?- How old are you and how bad is your Peyronies Disease?



Quote from: Jourdelune on April 03, 2007, 11:03:23 AM

I got a nice MSM cream that really give some freshness of my unit.  I put it on the Peyronies Disease side of it and i got some good feeling about that.  

JAKE52

Been a while since I've seen much discussion about efficacy or treatment with Pentox.  Has anyone experienced or heard of any success with this supplement?

Rico

The good doctor posted his new batch of answers to his Q&A .... he feels that viagra and cialis will only do one good if they take it at the onset of peyronies, but once the scar is there, well Like Tim always says, it is like closing the barn doors after the cows are out..... he only prescribes it if you are having problems with erections....

pentox and arginine he feels is cheap vs the high price cost of say viagra....he thinks the sceince might make sense for these products and low side effects.... but the jury is still out if they will really help much.... kind of you got nothing to lose deal:)...

Pentox is cheap and this is why maybe it is first choice by Lue.... I got off it after three months and feel better, stomach that is and went back to ginkgo  and get the same hang.... I do like cialis if I'm going to let the horse out of the barn.... seems to work best for me.....

Anyway his Q & A might be of some interest to you all, take care and God Bless.....

Rico
"The Sun Also Rises"

Tim468

Hi Rico,

Just wanted to point that out if others thought they were biologically equivalent.

Do you have a link to the Doctor opinion you are talking about?

Tim
52, Peyronies Disease for 30 years, upward curve and some new lesions.

George999

I would just like to point out here that it is really fortunate that Pentox is as inexpensive as it is.  As for Viagra/Ciallis, Horney Goat Weed (Icariin) is almost certainly a closer analog to Viagra/Ciallis than is Ginkgo to Pentox.  Viagra/Ciallis is given at a rather low dosage level for Peyronies anyway.  And, of course, Arginine is basically a commodity item and can be had in some really advanced formulations like SAN VasoFlow.  So, once one has the prescription for Pentox, the heavy lifting on the part of the physician is done.  The patient can then round that out with HGW, VasoFlow and Broad Spectrum E and have what is probably one of the best, if not the best, treatment for Peyronies currently available.  So, regardless of Lue's rational behind prescribing ONLY Pentox, it does make sense.  Viagra/Ciallis are probably among the most over priced medications on the market.  Go figure.  But fortunately they are probably not essential for the effective treatment of Peyronies.

- George

Rico

George,

Where do you get that pentox cures peyronies or is the best treatment out there..... Levine seems to think different..... pentox is cheap and easy to prescribe... helps with blood flow.... and go say ginkgo is no way like pentox like goat weed is like Viagra is absurd.... they are not even close.... Horny goat crap compared to cialis or Viagra..... Levine just said that pentox isn't going to do much after the fact(scar is there already), if you have a injury to your penis and start on it right away it will slow down the scarring.... I took pentox for over four and half months...and I have taken ginkgo.... I get a better hang from the ginkgo and no side effects.. nothing gets me more erect than cialis or Viagra..... arginine works for blood flow...... I would have concur with the Old Man and doctor Levine.... Levine goes with the fast size and the Old Man of course the VED, the use of these devises is your best chance to some improvement as of now..... Levine says you can improve up to 30 degrees but that is about it.... so if you are 90 then you will be 60, you can do the math....he like the needle also, maybe it is the perforation that is working and not the verapamil????   Once again if you scar is there already you can take pentox to the cows come home and all of the pav and it isn't going to reverse your condition, it will help with blood flow and maybe stop it from getting worse.... time also seems to do the same....become somewhat stable in some cases....  I have had this crap for a year.... what works for me because of the hinge effect is..... cilias for sex..... gingko and arginine for good blood flow and VED to stretch the plaque......  Levine said that 90% of his patience have ED because of peyronies..... or I should say some sort of disfunction, maybe it is in the head or physiological.....  and he only prescribes the cialis or Viagra if you have this problem..... he also said the pav cocktail can't do you harm, the science seems good behind it, but no evidence that it works, and it has been around for a long time.... If Pentox wasn't so cheap I wonder if that would be the first choice?

Rico
"The Sun Also Rises"

Hawk

Rico,

First off lets be clear that, because Dr. Levine says he thinks something, it does not make it so.  I am sure he would be the first to agree with that statement.  I am very sure that he deliberately says "I think' and "I don't think".  Dr. Levine is a rational thinker and chooses his words carefully.  He does not claim to know since he would have no way of knowing without large, controlled, blinded, randomized, studies.  It is important for us to understand his opinion but it is also important that you not overstate his opinion.  Other doctors have seen resolution in mature plaque.  Like Levine, they do not know that it is effective in such situations but there is some evidence.

So what we have is some evidence that pentox can resolve mature plaque, some opinion that it cannot, and no proof of anything, including no proof that it even prevents advancement of new scar tissue.  The fact that it did nothing for you after just 4 months contributes nothing to the body of incomplete evidence.  First you cannot expect the gradual tissue normalization to occur in that time frame.  Next, you can never know if you would have gotten worse during that period without pentox

HGW and Viagra are similar in type but not strength as far as how they act as a PDE5 inhibitor.  Ginko and Pentox in fact effect the blood in ways that are less similar to each other.  That does not slur Ginko.  it does not even say Ginko is not as good as Pentox.  Those issues were not addressed in Georges statements.  George's point is:

There is better evidence for Pentox than most other oral treatments.
Pentox is cheap
There is evidence for Aginine.
Arginine is readily available.
There is evidence for small doses of Viagra
Viagra is very expensive
HGW is cheap and is a weak PDE 5 inhibitor similar to that of a 1/4 tablet of Viagra

Conclusion: As I understand it, George thinks that if you must substitute, that it makes sense to go with the 2 cheap standards of pentox and arginine, and if you must substitute, then substitute HGW for the costly Viagra.  You may disagree, but no one could say that George's opinion is unreasonable.

Prostatectomy 2004, radiation 2009, currently 70 yrs old
After pills, injections, VED - Dr Eid, Titan 22cm implant 8/7/18
Hawk - Updated 10/27/18 - Peyronies Society Forums

Rico

Hawk,

I respect George's opinion, but I don't agree with horny goat weed being closer to Viagra than pentox is to ginkgo.... Mayo Clinic has a report which they study the two.... so they look at them as being in the same arena....

George said the the pav is the best treatment out there for peyronies today.... I disagree... and wouldn't want members of the forum to be mislead..... I think that for some maybe VED might be the best forum... or the fastsize and verapamil shots...... Maybe VED alone, maybe the knife is best for them..... I think that the pav is good for blood flow and keeping the tissue healthy.... if one can have a chance of correcting his curve by 30 degrees with VED wouldn't they want to give that a chance also?  

I have said my self that I thought that the pav was the best it seem to be out there for oral supplements..... I don't agree with that anymore.... no evidence on that.... or very little.... we are all different, so there is no best treatment for anyone.....

I have also read post for the pentox lovers on the forum and guess what, they don't take pentox..... go on it for awhile and then post..... I went on it, and I have a VED... and use arginine, I have found that ginkgo works better for me, this is real life..... I believe if you don't have a ved then you don't have a peryonies treatment going on also..... it is hard to do and follow up on.... I haven't done it like I should, pentox made me get red dots of blood when I used it... they are just starting to go away now.... so I will resume with it......

The best treatment is the one that you find works for you....

Rico
"The Sun Also Rises"

Hawk

Quote from: Rico on April 18, 2007, 01:39:19 PM
Hawk,

I don't agree with horny goat weed being closer to Viagra than pentox is to ginkgo....

W H Y
?

I think the facts disagree with what you think on this issue.
Prostatectomy 2004, radiation 2009, currently 70 yrs old
After pills, injections, VED - Dr Eid, Titan 22cm implant 8/7/18
Hawk - Updated 10/27/18 - Peyronies Society Forums

Rico

Pentox is prescribe for claudication.... this is what it was made for.... Mayo Clinic gave Ginkgo a "A" rating for Ginkgo and Claudication...
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/ginkgo-biloba/NS_patient-ginkgo

Rico
"The Sun Also Rises"

Hawk

Rico,

I think you missed my point and my question.  We all know that Ginko thins blood and can increase circulation (as well as increase bleed time), but it does so in a different manner than pentox which actually changes the shape and size of blood cells.

HGW acts in a manner very similar to Viagra (both are pde5 inhibitors)

In light of these facts how can you not agree that HGW is closer in method of action to Viagra than ginko is to Pentox?


Prostatectomy 2004, radiation 2009, currently 70 yrs old
After pills, injections, VED - Dr Eid, Titan 22cm implant 8/7/18
Hawk - Updated 10/27/18 - Peyronies Society Forums

George999

Just to clarify my position.  When I indicated that I thought that the PAV approach was the number one best treatment for Peyronies, I was referring to available oral treatments and not attempting to compare PAV with VED or other approaches.  And I stand by that statement.  And for the record, like Rico, I take Ginkgo and not Pentox.  I have never indicated otherwise.  Rico can read anything he wants into that situation, but the reality is that even though I am taking Ginkgo myself, I honestly consider it second best by far to Pentox, but Pentox requires a prescription and at this point I haven't pursued that track.  That does NOT mean that I won't pursue it in the future.  I do think that Ginkgo is likely equally effective to Pentox in terms of blood flow which it achieves by an entirely different mechanism.  And, when it comes to Peyronies, blood flow is important.  Where I suspect that Ginkgo falls short is in terms of TGF-beta-1 activity.  I have seen nothing in the research indicating that Ginkgo is anywhere near as active against TGF-beta-1 as Pentox is, and with Ginkgo (unlike with HGW), you can't just take more of it because you would be killing your platelets and risk bleeding to death.  I also stand by my claims regarding Horny Goat Weed.  If you get a good, uncontaminated brand of Horny Goat Weed, it will work just about as well as Viagra at a fraction of the cost IF you take enough of it.  But if you are taking a lot of it, you need to be sure that it is not full of lead.  Some products out there are, I can assure you of that, so be careful.  Puritan's Pride and Vitamin World products are pretty much guaranteed to be clean.  I use Nature's Way and I think they are fairly careful.  Rico had a bad reaction to Pentox.  That can happen with any drug and even with supplements.  I fully understand why he has chosen NOT to take Pentox.  But that doesn't make Pentox a bad drug, and it doesn't mean that it is universally ineffective against Peyronies.  I think he is giving it a bad rap due only to his negative personal experience with it.  I had a lot of problems with Arginine, but I kept trying different things till I finally found a formulation of Arginine that I could tolerate.  A lot of stuff is like that.  It is easy to just throw the baby out with the bathwater due to one or more bad experiences, but I am convinced that Peyronies can be beaten with the stuff available today if one has sufficient tenacity and determination.  And that includes those of us with old tough plaque.  I am not impressed with defeatist rhetoric.  I think it is a waste of time and energy and prefer instead to spend my time pursuing a solution.

Tim468

Rico,

I cannot understand why you persist in making comparisons between drugs/supplements that are not supported by pharmacology.

"Blood thinner" is a vague term and can (and does) refer to different mechanisms.

Pentox and Ginkgo do not work the "same" when it comes to TGF Beta1 inhibition. Ginkgo does not affect TGF, so to compare them is simply erroneous.

Icariin and Sildenafil (the active ingredients in Horny Goat Weed and Viagra) work through EXACTLY the same mechanism.

SO, yes, HGW and viagra ARE "the same", and Gingko and Pentox are NOT "the same", aprticularly when it ocmes to TGF. Their role in changing coagulation is through different mechanisms, as far as I know, to boot.

The facts in the matter are easily found. Therefore, I cannot understand you preiodically repeating this error on the boards. Is it forgetfullness or do you disagree with this?

Tim
52, Peyronies Disease for 30 years, upward curve and some new lesions.

Rico

George I have been pro active in my peyronies and just stated what has worked for me  and what hasn't..... I find it hard to believe that anyone that is sold on pentox wouldn't  go to the doctor and get some.... I took it for almost five months.... along with the full pav... didn't miss a day.... now I'm on ginkgo and arginine and cialias along with VED and the Dash diet plan along with working out, and I do think this is a positive approach..... If you think that pentox would reverse your plaque, then you should take it... like I said, I'm surprise your not if you feel so positive about it.... I got sold on it and try it and have study it also and have come to my conclusion on it....  they say the science makes sense, but the evidence isn't there.... I went to the doctor, got the prescriptson, five months.....I took it:)....

Some of the first articles on pentox are over five years old..... I haven't seen anything from Lue or anyone else on it since.... why isn't this forum saying I love pentox.... the only ones I hear promote don't take it..... I rather hear from someone who is actually using it and what it did for him.... that is evidence.....

I don't even want to compare horny goat weed to cialis.... in my book looking at them in application and function there is no comparison.... you say if you eat enough and it doesn't have lead in it and eat alot of it you can get the same effect..... that is enough to make me  choose Cialis..... I really like cialis, don't care much for Viagra..... I bought a couple hundred dollars worth six months ago, still have a good month supply left or more.... I found now that I can cut up a 20 into half for when I'm tried and if I feel good with a shot of arginine I can get some good wood with 5mg.....

The biggest problem I had with the pentox was the stomach problems and over all health(feeling) of my body, heavy legs.... I stay on it though for over four months(almost five).... and kept reading about it and trying to stay positive, people on the forum said the doctor told them that after several months it was going to do what it was going to do..... DannyOcean and others where on it..... I talk to my doctor and he didn't want me to stay on it any longer either.....

Once I got off of it, I started to feel much better, eating right, able to work out harder ect.... legs felt great.... but I stayed on the blood flow formula, just switch out pentox for ginkgo.... tgf beta1 blocker, maybe not the same..... once again there is no proof(evidence) on this....

I would put up with stomach problems, heavy legs, ill feeling like I did for almost five months for another five years if I thought for one minute it would help and there was any support to this....

I will find the article I posted before on here on ginkgo and the tgf beta1 blocker... don't you remember George.. you told me this was a good find and you now believe in Ginkgo....and it was like pentox...

Rico

"The Sun Also Rises"

George999

Rico, I don't think I ever said that Ginkgo was not active against TGF-beta-1.  There are studies out there that conclude that it is.  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16923344  My concern is that Pentox has been around for ages and has been demonstrated to be active against a broad spectrum of fibrotic diseases.  In fact the evidence for Pentox in relation to Peyronies is probably weaker than for any other major form of fibrotic disease that it has been tested against.  This, alone, is an indication to me that, if anything, the effectiveness of Pentox against Peyronies may actually be underestimated.  And I would maintain that even five months is not much of a test for Pentox.  I think five years would maybe be a more realistic time frame.  But I also would tend to agree with you that there are indeed other factors which are equally important.  Especially diet and exercise which I believe are hugely important.  Reduction of Omental fat and inflammatory factors simply can't be emphasized enough.  But having done that, I still feel that Pentox can be an incredibly effective tool.  I know that I am not taking Pentox myself.  I also know that I have been a very strong advocate of the VED and I am not using a VED.  I don't think you have to use something yourself in order to see the benefit of it.  I, like everyone else on this forum, have my own set of health problems.  And to be quite honest, Peyronies has taken a back seat to hypertension which I have been far more concerned about.  At this point I am thankful to be off of all my prescription hypertension medication and I would like to keep it that way.  Pentox is not really high on my list of effective treatments for hypertension and HGW is.  Therefore, at this point, I haven't pursued Pentox.  But that option is definitely open in the future.  I am glad to hear that what you are taking is working for you and that you are doing well.  If you haven't yet done so, go and visit http://www.realage.com, you'll find a lot of fascinating stuff there.  - George

Hawk

Quote from: Rico on April 18, 2007, 06:14:30 PM
I don't even want to compare horny goat weed to cialis.... in my book looking at them in application and function there is no comparison.... you say if you eat enough and it doesn't have lead in it and eat alot of it you can get the same effect..... that is enough to make me  choose Cialis..... I really like cialis, don't care much for Viagra.....

;D what a classic Rico response to Tim's post.  I see a familiar pattern we have learned to love  ;D Tim uses absolute fact to make a point.  You ignore it and other facts as though you hope they will go away.  Then you make a baseless statement offering no more than "in my book" as a reason.  I think we would all love to read that book sometime Rico.  Whats in it ???   ;D

We are all glad you like Ginko.  It is a good product.  We are glad "your book" says it works just like Pentox.  We are also glad you like your hundrends of dollars of Cialis and that "your book" say it works through totally different channels than HGW.  Since we have never been offered "your book" we are stuck reading boring facts.

Peace and happy reading  ;)
Prostatectomy 2004, radiation 2009, currently 70 yrs old
After pills, injections, VED - Dr Eid, Titan 22cm implant 8/7/18
Hawk - Updated 10/27/18 - Peyronies Society Forums

bodoo2u

I purchased a bottle of aloe vera softgels the other day and noticed that soy lecithin was the foremost ingredient. I am allergic to soy. Is there a brand out there without soy in the ingredients? Also I would like to know from the med experts on the forum if soy lecithin is all right for someone who is allergic to soy? I know that is sometimes possible because nattokinase is made from soy, but Neprinol has a significant amount of soy in it and is said to be soy free.  

Liam

I do understand the discussion and agree that the two work through the same mechanism.  However, so do a Moped and a Ferrari.  No matter how much you soup it up, its still just a Moped.  But, a Ferrari...............S W E E T!

Liam
"I don't ask why patients lie, I just assume they all do."
House

Hawk

Quote from: Liam on April 19, 2007, 06:41:41 AM
I do understand the discussion and agree that the two work through the same mechanism.  However, so do a Moped and a Ferrari.  No matter how much you soup it up, its still just a Moped.  But, a Ferrari...............S W E E T!

Liam

Liam,

I like such an analogy.  If someone were to say that a Yugo and a Ferrari (HGW and Viagra) worked on the same principle they would be absolutely correct - internal combustion engine transferring torque to a drive train in a 4 wheeled vehicle.

If they were to say that a hang glider and a Moped were much like each other (Ginko and Pentox) they would be very wrong.  While they can both transport you, what they do and their method of doing it are very different.  
Prostatectomy 2004, radiation 2009, currently 70 yrs old
After pills, injections, VED - Dr Eid, Titan 22cm implant 8/7/18
Hawk - Updated 10/27/18 - Peyronies Society Forums

Tim468

I will read up on that report George and Rico. The anstract underwhelmed me - and remember that cell lines are not the same as human (or even lab animals) - it looks like the effect on TGF is "a little".

Tim
52, Peyronies Disease for 30 years, upward curve and some new lesions.

Old Man

Hey guys:

If you guys want only just the aloe vera, go out to the nursery and buy you an aloe vera plant. We have used the plants for years to treat burns. Rubbed on immediately after a burn and the sting goes away at once. It also heals much faster after using it.

It should work just as well for use with Peyronies Disease, only you have the natural juice of the stem rather all the other added stuff when you buy the gels, etc.

IOW, try it, you might like it!

Regards, Old Man
Age 92. Peyronies Disease at age 24, Peyronies Disease after
stage four radical prostatectomy in 1995, Heart surgery 2004 with three bypasses/three stents.
Three more stents in 2016. Hiatal hernia surgery 2017 with 1/3 stomach reduction. Many other surgeries too.

bodoo2u


George999

QuoteI will read up on that report George and Rico. The anstract underwhelmed me - and remember that cell lines are not the same as human (or even lab animals) - it looks like the effect on TGF is "a little".

Tim, certainly all indications are that the effect was 'measurable'.  But I am very convinced, that unlike in the case of Icariin v Viagra where the ratio of the effect is known, with Ginkgo we are dealing with an UNKNOWN quantity as to the effectiveness ratio.  And while I have great respect for Rico and have found a great number of his points extremely useful (to the point that I myself am taking Ginkgo), I simply can't attribute the same weight to anyone's testimonial ("my book") as I do to objective medical research.  The research I am seeing says that, yes, Ginkgo does suppress TGF-beta-1.  By how much?  Who knows?  But the very wording in the available documentation is simply screaming "not by much".  On the other hand, Pentox has to be one of the most effective and proven TGF-beta-1 blockers out there.  So if you want to really seriously attack TGF-beta-1, I think that Pentox is THE way to do it.  Now of course there ARE other potential targets in the same pathway.  By directly attacking Extracellular matrix synthesis for example, and there are supplements that can do that.  But only Pentox really SERIOUSLY goes after TGF-beta-1 itself.  Thats the reality, and thats what Rico seems to be resisting.

George999

Old Man, with all due respect, fresh aloe from the plant does not have the same pharmaceutical effect as what is included in the soft gel formulation.  The aloe in the soft gels is processed with heat and in other ways in order to give it qualities that are not found in natural aloe.  It is also highly refined to make sure the toxic latex is removed.  Actually eating fresh aloe from the plant is highly risky.  If you happen to get enough latex in the dose, it can make you very sick.  Using it for burns is fine (we have the plants and use them for external stuff all the time), but I would definitely NOT consume it orally.  The allergy to soy is problematic in this case, since the composition of aloe in the soft gel form is highly standardized in the industry.  Most of the formulations I have seen make use of soy as a fat base to greatly enhance the assimilation of the active ingredients in aloe.  But iherb.com carries the NOW brand of Aloe softgels which I currently have on order which replaces the soy with rice bran oil and is designed to be soy free.  I have used both iherb and NOW products for some time and have found them to be reliable.  Here is the link: http://www.iherb.com/store/ProductDetails.aspx?c=Herbs&pid=NOW-03036.  I only use two softgels per day, not the significantly larger number that the NOW label suggests.  These would perhaps be an option.  Puritan's Pride also has what amounts to the same formulation in tablet form, but I have never used the tablet form and am not sure as to its effects   http://www.puritan.com/pages/file.asp?xs=BEDC8031873248948487461D4109057E&PID=&CID=&CPID=994.  They also have the soft gel form WITH soy and a capsule form that probably contains a significant amount of latex that I would avoid.

- George