ORAL TREATMENTS - GENERAL - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements

[ComeBacKid]

Well I picked up my pentox today along with a refill on trazodone.  With my drug coverage I saved $6 on trazodone, and $45 on the pentox, with the coverage the pentox was only $10 and the trazodone $4.

I then asked for viagra... they told me it would be $349!!!! and my insurance will only cover 6 pills per month for free!  Needless to say I didn't walk out of there with the viagra prescription so I won't be taking that anytime soon.  Did anyone else run into this problem, or did your insurance cover daily viagra?  I'm wondering if theres much I can do about this?

[Rico]

Tim,

I think you are above average being a doctor and mixing and matching your supplements, this brand had 1000 mg of arginine plus many other benefits I felt that the heart health and vision, plus the needs for sexual health...plus there is science and study behind it...I thought that it is a good choice especially if someone is new to the peyronies and he wants to start something and then maybe if you felt you wanted to add a little more alc then you could....I have a pill box that I can make a week in advance and it makes it pretty convenient also, once again I felt myself that someone put some study into this mix and it made sense to me  for my eyes(I wear glasses), prostate(over 50), general health and then the sexual vitality blend was a good start and the aminos along with a extra kick of arginine, which seems to be the supplement of choice by the medical field....

I think if I was new to peyronies and over all health, for a dollar a day I could get a good start with this product, and as I learned more I could tweak it a little....it even had omega three and oatmeal and the OPC.....

I also feel that it is more of a Nutraceutical grade and this blend has been thought out for men as stated.....

Maybe when you read about heart health and sexual function there could be some truth to it, and good prostate health and over all good circulation and vision health ect....this also has a good stress formula with the b vitamins.....anyway I not trying to sell this, my thought was a good start program for most and the price and combination cover all bases that I'm looking for....maybe over dosing on one supplement which hasn't prov en to cure anything is not the right way to go either, but a well thought out formula put together by a well thought out group backed with research is something to think about also.....take care and thank you for your thoughts...

Rico

[George999]

Whoa, I guess I won't be trying out Viagra soon, it makes my old Goat Weed seem like a real bargain!  And shame on you Tim for mentioning wogonin.  I just had run out and buy some.  Viagra makes it to look like a major bargain as well.

- George

[Rico]

Tim,

As far as mass action like in the Viet Nam protest which was a bad way to do anything in my opinion, I was part of Operation New Life, I helped evacuated Viet Nam, this was a more proactive and thought out effort in my opinion, plus at the same time we were protecting are shores for the protesters could stay in college and enjoy free speech....

We had a plan and follow it and it was well thought out, and I believe in the plan that was put behind this type of supplement, it is more of a whole body approach also, sometimes one wonders if you could be over loading a one product and throwing off you balance...your body produces or gets from food many supplements, but if you over load, it also has memory and will look for the supplement....this is why one might look into taking a week off once in awhile if you are taking many heavy doses....nox is nox(circulation) if you get it from arginine or running or a combo, not everyone with peyronies has ED...

I read about people taking large doses of alc, arginine ect....or taking a drug to sleep, one to wake up, they start becoming like Elvis.....

I only take alc in the morning, a small amount, it makes me alert and seems to give me a good mood feeling, if I take too much, it keeps me up at night, arginine, I take, but also get plenty in my diet....

Anyway I guess I look at a plus b plus c and a plan works if there is study behind it and over health is very important and this look more than a average multi.....

Rico

[Hawk]

I will be brief (for me).

I have had 3 prostate biopsies.  I don't want to scare anyone off from one, if it is called for by all means get one.  So far, it has saved my life.  Most are not too bad. One was a very bad experience especially after the fact.  It was my first one.  I was warned of some pink urine and to relax for 24 hours.  I have a friend that went hunting a few hours after one (my hero).

Well my first one was an indescribable blood letting when I went to urinate.  I am not squeamish but I cold barely look long enough to aim.  I could be more explicit but is would scare men unnecessarily since I have never know another case like mine.  I called the on-call doc who was not my particular urologist.  He said are you taking aspirin etc etc.  I said no.  I read the list and am taking nothing cautioned on the list.  He said, "no vitamin E?".  I said, "hell yes I am taking vitamin E, that's no where on your list".  He then said while it normally is not as bad as some other substances as a blood thinner, it can prolong bleed times in some people.  I stopped the vitamin E and stopped bleeding within 24 hours.  Since most people do not bleed I was not real convinced of a connection.  It could have stopped on its own anyway.  Well after 7 days (you only have precautions for 24 hours), I started vitamin E  again.  Within 24 yours I was passing blood.  very rare for a prostate biopsy.  It no doubt hit a blood vessel.  The point is that my searches have turned up that it does impact different people differently, and one source of un-authenticated origin said the O blood types are most affected.  I am O neg.  When I discontinued Vitamin e the second time the bleeding stopped again within 24 hours.  I did not take it for a month.  It was natural vitamin E.  I take mixed tocopherols now but at the time I may have been on natural Alpha only. 850 IU per day.  I can tell the difference in bleed times when on vitamin E and getting stuck for blood tests, and I have had lab techs comment.  

Needless to say subsequent biopsies saw me taking NO vitamin E and I ate kale for 2 days to load up on vitamin K (no other source comes close).  I had no slight bleeding issues with my other two biopsies.

[Hawk]

Check out this commercial vitamin sales site and look at the vitamin guide.  I think it reflect very balanced information and drug interactions, dosage, food sources, etc.  Click on health notes on the right and Vitamin guide on the left of the window that opens.
http://www.puritan.com/house/helpcenter.asp?xs=2E5D704C8D37405FA3A5DFFA1DF1AC68#


Again, a great guide on herbs from Memorial Slane-Kettering Cancer Center
They include any known clinical studies, and I detect no pro or con bias.
http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/11571.cfm?RecordID=548&tab=HC

This link takes you directly to the Yohimbe section of the site, but you can search any herb once there.

[scott]

ComeBackid,

I think your insurance coverage for Viagra is pretty standard.  My plan covers only four pills per month; from that point on, I would have to pay the retail price.

All insurance plans have an appeal process.  Have you looked into that?  It probably would involve your physician writing a letter to the plan (or perhaps a phone call would be accepted) justifying why you need it.  I recently appealed a non-coverage of Celebrex (COX-2 inhibitor) and my physician's nurse handled it over the phone.

If you don't know the appeal procedure, call your plan.  Good luck.

[George999]

Hawk, thanks for your input on this important issue.  Certainly in the case of a biopsy or surgery, I would discontinue not only vitamin E, but also all the other supplements the exacerbate bleeding.  But I am curious about one thing.  You note that you can tell the difference when you have a blood draw done.  It is a known fact that high levels of vitamin E plus high levels of Vitamin A can deplete the body's store of vitamin K.  I wonder if in the case of some people vitamin E alone can deplete levels of vitamin K and thus cause the bleeding problem.  So what would happen if you were to take a vitamin K supplement along with your vitamin E for a few days before a blood draw?  Does this sound like it might be an interesting experiment?  I am just curious what the effect might be.  Might it be possible that some people who are taking vitamin E should also be taking a low level vitamin K supplement?  If so, perhaps vitamin E supplements should have some vitamin K 'built in' as part of the same softgel.  So why isn't anybody (like the supplement industry) doing this kind of basic research?

- George

[swimfly]

There are so many hoops people jump through for routine medical scripts. Getting approval for off lable usage is 10 fold more difficult. It is also typically unsuccessful in our experience to boot. What is the percentage of men in here who do get insurance to pay for an off lable use of the VED....or any drug for that matter? Sounds like part of the problem lies in getting Physicians to write VED scripts in the first place. Drugs are often a different story. Docs write for them but insurances reject claims because a certain drug isn't "approved" for the use it's written for. I could kick myself for not keeping the Soma Correct our supplier accidentaly sent us! I made them send Paul the right one...DOH!!! Who knew?

Since most Docs still think there is little to benefit in the use of a VED for  peyronies, it will be a while before it's widely accepted. Once it is a proven treatment, insurances will be covering VED's. Like magic...the cost will suddenly go way down when that happens! There are, what looks like, a few studies so far but, none are very old. I haven't seen any head to head trials. Are there any?

PDE5 drugs are in the same boat...still off lable or still a week-end recreation drug. Sucks IMHO. I feel like those with genuine health disroders are being grouped in with any ole Joe wanting Viagra for kicks. Docs are the least at fault though. A few years ago, Pharmasists across the country filed suit to stop the free sample saturation in the market place. Pharmacy profits were being affected.
While drug companies were making money, drug stores weren't getting their share. Anyone recall all the coupons for 6 free samples? The makers of PDE5 drugs could have cared less. More money for them in the end. The product was already out there by that time. I suspect when the patent runs out sometime this year, everyone will be able to better afford Viagra.

I'm guessing the next genration of PDE5 drugs will contain an NO doner. Just think...you guys will be one up on Pfizer already. Arginine and the generic version of Viagra will prove more cost effective than the 4-8 pills a month our insurances pay for!    Swimfly (formerly known as swim) Prince, eat your heart out..HA!

[George999]

Swimfly, I just couldn't agree with you more.  Unfortunately it is the big drug companies that fund the research engines of the world, and the supplement and VED makers are hung out to dry.  They have some big money, but merely a pittance in comparison to the big pharmacuetical operations and it wouldn't surprise me if any major research institution daring to "offend" any of their major "patrons" by doing conclusive research on non-pharmacuetical substances or devices would end up paying the price.  Its totally maddening, especially when you add the insurance layer on top of that.

As for PDE-5 inhibitors, that is another maddening situation.  What eventually became Viagra was supposed to have been a killer hypertension drug until the pharm company discovered it could make them more money as a 'sex drug'.  So those of us with truly life threatening issues were dumped for those who wanted and could afford an extra kick for their sex life.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not intending to put down those truly suffering from ED.  That along with Peyronies is a legitimate malady that should be covered without question.  Its just that I see how Viagra has been pimped on TV and it certainly appears that they have aimed it at people who might not even need it.  The same applies of course to Levitra and Cialis.

And is Viagra REALLY going OFF PATENT sometime this year!  That is really exciting!    That means that they along with generic vendors will have to come up with new applications for it to make it pay for itself.  Yes!  Until then, its Horny Goat Weed and Korean Red Ginseng for my PDE-5 issues.  (Correction by George as of 10-06-06 -> While Korean Red Ginseng has been shown to have an apparent positive effect on NOS, it is not a known PDE-5 inhibitor.)

- George

[Tim468]

When I have prescribed viagra for pulmonary hypertension, (a 3 times daily dose) it has been fully covered. it is approved for that, though. "Off label" use of a drug is unlikely to be reimbursed, however.

Although I am no fan of the drug companies, I can see how they might feel about paying for, say, iontophoretic use of verapamil. We have read a few reports and get excited about it. They take a more sensible fiscally conservative approach. Looks like they may be 'right" - for now.

In reality, there are a few reports of viagra helping in fibrotic conditions - and that is enough for me, but not for them, I am sure.

Tim

[Liam]

If Peyronies Disease causes you to have less than perfect erections, is that not organic ED?  Would this not be the route to take for having insurance cover PDE inhibitors?  Instead of going to the doc saying I want to treat Peyronies Disease,  please give me Viagra, itay be better to say, "My Peyronies Disease is causing me to have ED.  Can you give me something to help the ED?"

I'm sure most of us have tried that approach.  But, for somebody new, maybe that will help.  If you've tried this and it has NOT worked, let us know.

[George999]

Liam, great idea!  Perhaps Tim can comment.  I have even thought of that in terms of essential hypertension.  Hey Doc, my hypertension is causing me ED (and I really need to have sex at least three times a day in order to maintian my sanity).  I wonder, what do you think Tim, would that fly or no?

- George

[Tim468]

I think it would be useful to get viagra prescribed for ED, as that will be covered. Most plans only cover 6 pills a month - so if one got 100 mg pills, and cut them into quarters, one could take 25 mg a day for 24 days a month. You can also pay out of pocket for a few more pills - I have previoously purchased ten viagra on one month, and four out of pocket plus copay came to about $80. Still too much of course. But getting ten Cialis (not at all covered) was about $300!

In one of the reports of the Pentox/Viagra/arginine treatment, a guyused 50 a day of viagra, another used 25 a day, and a third started on 25 and increased the dose to 50 a day. so if 50 a day is "better", then you would need at least 15 Viagra a month, which is not covered (for ED) by anyone. The HMO's claim it is "untried" at that frequency, and could be harmful. And remember, that if one guy keels over dead from havingt a heart attack while on every other day Viagra (well, that is what they would think the dose was going to be...) then they could be held liable (I think). Certainly the doctor could be hed liable.

And speaking as a doc, I would rather annoy or frustrate a patient, than to be putting myself in a bad position for medical malpractice. Couple that attitude with a lack of understanding of how PDE4/5 inhibition could work as an anti-inflammatory, and you may find it hard to even get a script for Viagra at higher doses than 6 pills a month.

I did not know it was going to go off patent so soon (I thought it was 17 years - but I do not know when the countdown started for Viagra). Until then one could go to off-shore sources (potentially illegal or bad quality medication).

Tim

[swimfly]

George,
Unless you live in Utah or AZ with the Jeffs crowd...who the heck ya gonna get to have sex with 3 times a day? If you were to ask a Doc (or insurance company) for drugs, using the reason you've stated, all you may get is a big ole bottle of bwah-ha-ha!   Let us know how that paln works out, eh?  

[George999]

Some of you may have noticed Tim's mention of wogonin as a possible helpful substance in treating peyronies.  But if you do any amount of researching of wogonin, you will learn that it is a nitric oxide inhibitor.  So, you might wonder, if wogonin is a nitric oxide inhibitor, how can it be helpful in treating peyronies.  Well, as is often the case, the devil is in the details.   Wogonin actually is a very specific nitric oxide inhibitor.  It inhibits only one of multiple nitric oxide synthase processes.  The one it inhibits is the one used by certain bacteria and certain immune system cells.  That makes it both anti bacterial and anti inflammatory.  That process is referred to a iNOS (inducible NOS or NOS2.)  What we are concerned about with Peyronies is eNOS (endothelial NOS or NOS3).  That is the process that dialates blood vessels and other vascular tissue.  We are also of course concerned with the erection process which is actually stimulated by the nervous system and is thus dependent on nNOS (neuronal NOS or NOS1).  Thus, wogonin very neatly inhibits exactly the NO process which is the culprit in peyronies making it a unique tool with which to target peyronies.  And the primary source of wogonin is an herb known as Baikal Skullcap. Baikal Skullcap also provides baicalin and baicalein, which also have fascinating beneficial effects.  But that is another story.  Hopefully commercially available Baikal Skullcap doesn't also provide the other sorts of nasty toxins Asian herbs are famous for.  Oh well ... life is a risk.

[George999]

Tim mentioned that Viagra is approved for treatment of pulmonary hypertension.  It would certainly be interesting to know if someone being so treated also suffered from peyronies and what the effect on the peyronies might be, but pulmonary hypertension is rare enough, it would be difficult to find such a situation.  I understand that right now Cialis is in the trial phase for approval as an advanced treatment for essential hypertension.  I think that might be really interesting if it were to get so approved.  I suspect a significant number of people suffering from essential hypertension concurrently suffer from Peyronies Disease.  In that case, the effect of a Cialis regimin on Peyronies Disease would be really interesting and might (hopefully) drive some research in that direction.

[Tim468]

The study I read about Wogonin was fascinating, and showed that it prevented fibrotic activity in Peyronies Disease derived cell culture, and prevented fibrosis in a rat model of Peyronies Disease. figuring out dosage is tough though. The specualtive part of the paper mentioned a dose, and that which I have found available is about a tenth of what they suggested (details escape me right now). Frustrating.

OTOH, I just discovered a Chinese herbal store in town where they can mix up the raw ingredients used in such concotions. So I may have to go down and do some non-book learning!

Tim

[Rico]

If your body is not getting enough calcium your body pulls it from your bones, if you have scar tissue it will cause it to calcified it, we need up to 1000mg a day and should be taken over a couple of periods a day....something to think about.....

Rico

[Kimo]

If Peyronies Disease causes you to have less than perfect erections, is that not organic ED?  Would this not be the route to take for having insurance cover PDE inhibitors?  Instead of going to the doc saying I want to treat Peyronies Disease,  please give me Viagra, itay be better to say, "My Peyronies Disease is causing me to have ED.  Can you give me something to help the ED?"

I'm sure most of us have tried that approach.  But, for somebody new, maybe that will help.  If you've tried this and it has NOT worked, let us know.

My UOR said that peyronies did cause ED and he wrote a letter to my ins,,it took 2 times and they started paying for all of  my Viagra, 30 pills a month,,,and of course i got the 100mg...I also wanted to add that these letters got my ins to pay 100% on my VED  which was about 455.00.........kimo

[ComeBacKid]

Kimo,

Good for you buddy.  There is no question that my peyronies has slowly given me ED, sometimes partial ED where I couldn't get a full erection.  Now I get no daytime erections, however the trazodone has helped to spark about 2 a day.  

ComeBackid

[Rico]

Kimo,

Good for you, my blue cross has a clause for anything with ED....I don't have ED, but I still thinks it isn't fair that ED is looked upon the way it is, I try to go around the peyronies, by getting the VED for ED, they had me double blocked, they did pay for my topical verapamil or co pay was 20 bucks for the worthless crap, and covered most of my doctors visit cost me 88 bucks, I went in once to see him, which was good because I had to have him send me a script for my VED, which took him forever, either them or Soma Correct had a hard time getting the fax sent, which I don't know if they still did as of today, I have all other paper work filled out with them....I guess if your selling dick pumps all day you probally go out for a few drinks after work:)....anyway I will be happy to get it, I can't believe I order one, I fill like I'm getting a new golf club or something from a infomercial or something.....I will say this site has given me confidence in getting it though, Thanks Old Man!!  

Rico

[zigwyth]

I think we're slightly getting off the Oral treatments topics maybe. I'm gonna jump over to where I have a question about Insurance if someone can help.
Thanks
Zig

[George999]

Tim, regarding Baikal or Chinese Skullcap (apparently they are the same thing).  While it is a  good source of wogonin, there is unfortunately a fly in the ointment which I just discovered AFTER ordering a bottle of the stuff.  They have apparently had a few cases of reported liver toxicity in Europe (none known of here in the US) apparently from the skullcap being contaminated by germander.   Germander used to be sold as an herb for all sorts of ailments until it was pulled by various governmental agencies due to its nasty liver toxicity.  In Europe they even went to the extraordinary degree of attempting to erradicate it as a plant.  So, while skullcap itself has no known toxicities, there have been issues with germander possibly finding its way into it either accidentally or deliberately, so beware.  Ask the herbalist about that problem and let us know what his response is.

Thanks,

George

References:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8125230&dopt=Abstract

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/health-fitness/drugs-supplements/dangerous-supplements-504/12-supplements-to-avoid/index.htm

http://www.selectoils.com/item--GERMANDER-POWDER-Herb--HB-P771+GERMANDER,+POWDER+Herb.html

Thats right!  Its a known poison and there are people out there selling it - the real thing!  Pretty amazing!

[Tim468]

Possible contamination is part of the problem with such herbal remedies, and a lack of standardization of manufacturing processes.

Tim

[percival]

Tim
There are lots of references to the isolation and purification of Wogonin from plant extracts. Also it has been synthesised - it is a fairly simple molecule. Is this the goal, or is the idea to get a reliable source of natural Wogonin free from toxic contaminants such as Germander?
Percival

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1527-3458.2005.tb00266.x?cookieSet=1&journalCode=cns

Therapeutic Potential of Wogonin: A Naturally Occurring Flavonoid
Man Chun Tai1, Shui Ying Tsang1, Lawrence Y. F. Chang1 and Hong Xue1
ABSTRACT

The search for flavonoids with novel therapeutic effects has been intense. Wogonin, as a naturally existing monoflavonoid, has been shown to have therapeutic potential in vitro and in vivo. Methods for its extraction from herbs and its chemical synthesis have been developed. Pharmacokinetic studies have shown a rapid tissue distribution and prolonged plasma elimination phase of wogonin. It has been shown experimentally that wogonin exerts anti-oxidant activity, which may, in part, underlie its antiinflammatory, anti-cancer, antiviral and neuroprotective actions. The recent discovery of its anxiolytic activity suggests a new mechanism of action, involving interaction with the benzodiazepine (BZD) binding site of the GABAA receptor and modulation of this receptor activity. Although the safety record of wogonin is remarkable and voluminous literature about its pharmacological effects is available, it has not been used in Western medicine in the form of a pure chemical. In this article we review its therapeutic effects, its sources and pharmacokinetic profile to highlight its therapeutic potential

[Rico]

Dear forum members and guest,

I have been looking at alc and I do take it in the morning now, I think for being over fifty it helps with brain function:)....mood improvement.....

My question is that other than the one study I read from Sweden, I haven't found any other articles associated with peyronies...and I don't see Levine or anyone suggesting it.....arginine is another story and to me a no brainier for wound healing and is the most natural ED cure out there....all the male enhancers seem to have this as the main ingredient....they do have some now with time release....

If anyone can tell me why alc other than the stress factor associated with this condition... thank you...and God Bless...

Rico

[Tim468]

There are two studies of note - I know of no study from Scandanavia.

Not a ton of data to go on, but given it's beneficial effects in other realms, it seemed worth trying to me. I take a gram of ALC and a gram of PLC twice daily. I just got my bulk ALC and PLC from "bulknutrition.com" (seems to be the same as "goendurance.com"), and I also got a capsule filler. It turns out that this stuff smells NASTY! The caps I make (it takes me about 5 minutes to make a hundred 500 mg capsules) are also available from the same vendor, and I got 1000 for $11, and the capsule filler for about $15. Since the chemical is about a third the price when bought in bulk, it is already paid for and then some.

Who would ever have thought that was how I'd be spending a Friday night... I felt like a drug dealer - white powder spilled over my countertop.

Tim

*********************

Acetyl-L-carnitine vs tamoxifen in the oral therapy of Peyronie's disease: a preliminary report.

Biagiotti G, Cavallini G.

Andros-Italia, Perugia, Italy.

OBJECTIVE: To detect whether oral acetyl-L-carnitine might be useful in the acute and early chronic phases of Peyronie's disease, compared with tamoxifen, a drug currently in use. PATIENTS AND METHODS: The study included 48 patients with Peyronie's disease (15 acute and 33 initial chronic), randomized equally into two groups. The first group used tamoxifen 20 mg twice daily for 3 months and the second acetyl-L-carnitine 1 g twice daily for 3 months. The disease and stages were diagnosed and identified using a history, objective examination, pharmacologically induced erection, autophotography during erection, and basic and dynamic colour Doppler ultrasonography. Penile curvature, plaque size, pain and disease progression were assessed. The differences between the groups or between the variables before and after therapy were compared using analysis of variance or the chi-squared test. RESULTS: Acetyl-L-carnitine was significantly more effective than tamoxifen in reducing pain and in inhibiting disease progression. Acetyl-L-carnitine reduced penile curvature significantly, while tamoxifen did not; both drugs significantly reduced plaque size. Tamoxifen induced significantly more side-effects than acetyl-L-carnitine. CONCLUSIONS: These results suggest that acetyl-L-carnitine is significantly more effective and safe than tamoxifen in the therapy of acute and early chronic Peyronie's disease.

************************

Oral propionyl-l-carnitine and intraplaque verapamil in the therapy of advanced and resistant Peyronie's disease.

   * Cavallini G,
   * Biagiotti G,
   * Koverech A,
   * Vitali G.

Medicine Reproductive Unit, Societa Italiana Studi di Medicina della Riproduzione (SISMER), Bologna, Italy. giorgiocavallini@libero.it

OBJECTIVE: To ascertain whether oral propionyl-l-carnitine combined with intraplaque verapamil is a useful therapy for advanced or resistant Peyronie's disease. PATIENTS AND METHODS: The combined drugs were assessed in two studies. In the first, 60 patients with advanced Peyronie's disease, diagnosed using accepted definitions, were randomized in two subgroups treated with verapamil intraplaque infiltration (10 mg weekly for 10 weeks) plus a 3-month administration of propionyl-l-carnitine (2 g/day), or verapamil infiltration plus oral tamoxifen (40 mg/day) for 3 months. In the second study, 15 patients with resistant Peyronie's disease (progression despite previous therapy) received verapamil plus propionyl-l-carnitine. The differences between subgroups or between the variables before and after therapy were compared using analysis of variance or the chi-squared test. RESULTS: In the first study, the reduction in pain was the same in both subgroups. Propionyl-l-carnitine plus verapamil significantly reduced penile curvature, plaque size, cavernosal artery end-diastolic velocity, the need for surgery and disease progression, and increased the International Index of Erectile Function score and resistivity index of the cavernosal arteries. Tamoxifen plus verapamil had none of these effects. No drug combination affected the peak systolic velocity. Patients receiving verapamil had no side-effects but those taking tamoxifen did. In the second study propionyl-l-carnitine and verapamil modified the disease patterns as in the first and no patient had side-effects. CONCLUSION: The combination of propionyl-l-carnitine and verapamil can be considered the therapy of choice for advanced and resistant Peyronie's disease.

********************

[Rico]

I was reading that diphenhydramine citrate is a recommended pharmacological therapies for treatment of scar remodelling along with NASID, this is Advil PM......

Best regards,

Rico

[myrddin]

I ran across some of the wonders of Pomegranate Juice.  It seems like it may be a helpful (and tasty) way to assist and enhance the work that our L-Arginine supplementation is doing in assisting NO production & effectiveness.

PubMed link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16626982&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum

Opinions or objections, anyone?

[Rico]

Myrddin,

This is a excellent, it is from the Mediterranean and as we know the Mediterranean diet has many health factors....if you google WebMD, you will find studies on pomegranate to thwart off prostate cancer recurrence after surgery....

Also the pycnogenol family or proanthcoyanidins are excellent for circulation and to fight off free radicals...

I buy POM wonderful, it is expensive though....but I mix a little with my other juice....if you are worried about your blood sugar, you can get it in tablet from, I take two a day with my grape seed(OPC), the french maritime bark can be taken also, some blends have them all in one, along with bilberry...all natural....

And for fun.... I make a Pomtini..... lime,potatoe juice(vodka), pomegranate,cointreau liquor .....shaken not stirred...

You can also by the fruit, it is a little messy to eat and hard to find.....

This is great suggestion myrddin, IMHO....

Rico

[George999]

Myrddin, WOW!  This is a fantastic find.  Totally synergistic with what many of us are trying to acheive.  We always have pomegranate juice on hand, but I have not been using it too complement NO (taking it along with my arginine, goat weed, ginseng, etc.)   I find this really exciting!  Thanks so much for digging that out and posting it.

- George

[myrddin]

You may also find this PubMed article interesting.  No doubt it's good news for rabbits with ED.  But it makes two statements that sound applicable to us, but among so many medical terms I'm not sure what to conclude:

PJ intake prevented erectile tissue fibrosis in the ED group.

and

Antioxidant therapy may be a useful prophylactic tool for preventing smooth muscle dysfunction and fibrosis in ED.

Perhaps one of you with better medical knowledge can read this study and determine if it's anything we should be happy about.

Article:
Oxidative stress in arteriogenic erectile dysfunction: prophylactic role of antioxidants.:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=15947695&itool=iconabstr&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum

Another note: I've read that Pomegranate Juice has been proven to reverse athersclerosis (sp?) over time, which is the buildup of arterial plaque (haven't found the actual study on this yet).  Is there a chance it can do the same with Peyronie's plaque?  Anyway, it's a tasty and pleasant treatment, so I'm thinking, Why not try it?

[percival]

Myrddin
I will take pomegranate juice daily and see what happens - it tastes nice!
Thanks for the suggestion.
Today I picked up a tincture of Scutellaria baicalensis from our local herbalist. They assure me it is of good purity - by UK standards (but remember the Titanic) - so I will try it and report. If I fail to report, I suggest that no-one else tries it!
Percival

[DannyOcean]

Agreed, great find.  And certainly falls in the "It can't hurt" category.  

Anyone know of a way to get PJ relatively cheaply.  POM is so frickin' expensive.  I'd love to start a daily routine of this stuff but fear it'll end up being more expensive than my viagra.

[Rico]

You can buy it in tablets as a supplement, I do take it this way, and I also buy a bottle of POM wonderful each week.....the capsules are fairly inexpensive....

Rico

[George999]

A great source of general information on supplements can be found here:

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/

I found it quite a fascinating store of knowlege all presented in a quite unbiased manner.  Enjoy!

- George

[ComeBacKid]

If pentox acts as a blood thinner, how can it be taken while one is using the VED for peyronies therapy?  Since we know that vitamin E (blood thinner) will give you the red dots on your penis which are not good.  Hence is anyone on here taking pentox while using the VED?

[George999]

ComeBackid, I would suggest that there are perhaps ways of working around this problem.  For example in the case of vitamin E.  One way in which vitamin E 'thins' the blood is by antagonizing vitamin K which plays a key role in blood clotting.  Thus one can significantly reduce the 'blood thinning' effect of vitamin E by taking a small vitamin K2 supplement which enhances clotting.  One can also take Rutin which strengthens the capillaries and thus prevents bleeding and bruising due to mild trauma.  As for Pentox, I don't know how it 'thins' the blood as there are a number of different things that can cause blood 'thinning'.  Vitamin K deficiency, fibrin deficiency, platelet deficiency, specific enzymatic action against clots, etc.  So the first step would be to find out how Pentox 'thins' the blood and if and how that can be countered.  Perhaps Tim could weigh in on this one.

[Tim468]

"we know that vitamin E (blood thinner) will give you the red dots on your penis which are not good. "

Dear ComeBackid,

Please remember that your own experience with "red dots" was *your* experience. It is neither generalizable, nor even necessarily the proper interpretation of events. Application of a slightly higher pressure, or a lack of proper lubrication, etc, could all have contributed to your possible petechiae. But many of us are using 800- 1000 IU of vitamin E a day without any problem with that side effect of the VED.

Tim

[ComeBacKid]

Tim and others,

I've been taking pentox now 400mg 3 times per day, I've noticied my penis hangs even bigger when flaccid and feels softer, that hardened scar seems soft for some reason.  I've continued to use the VED and have NOT noticed any petechiae, so that is a good thing. I've also been taking a centrum vitamin daily(not the silver kind for old hags  ).

I was just thinking, what evidence is there that pentox will even do anything, as I believe I've gotten lazy and am so desperate for a cure I"ll take anything.  I looked up the Dr. Lue study and it seems that only 1 patient saw actual results from pentox, couldn't this of been simply spontaneous resolution? I'm starting to question whether someone is blowing smoke on this drug, but for now I think I will continue taking it as I have seen NO side effects at all whatsoever.

ComeBackid

[Tim468]

Thanks for the update ComeBackid. I do not know if Pentox "thins the blood", but I agree with george about the role of Rutin and a multivit (for extra vitamin E). I have taken E for years without problems, and the data about it decreasing survival must be taken in context.

After all the badgering of ComeBackid to go to a urologist, he will be glad to hear that I am going back to one for the first time in about - oh, like, 30 years. Sigh... he has no idea what he is in for. Talk about a patient coming in with an agenda!

My goal will be to get Pentox and Viagra prescribed, and to get help getting it covered by my insurance. My health plan is an enormous one, and I am also one of their primary (specialty) providers too! So I am going to work the "taking care of one of their own" angle, and the multiple disease and "they better treat it before I collapse in a puddle of scar tissue" angle (I will argue that in addition to the Peyronies Disease I have Dupuytrens and maybe the plantar fasciitis thing)(course, I may not have that one - but the arch of my foot hurts a lot). Currently, I take either Cialis or Viagra about every third day, and arginine. I need a good TGF-beta blocker so hopefully Pentox will work. I do wonder about the use of that TGF blocker paste I found a link to - that might be something one could apply locally.

Tim

https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,36.msg6017.html#msg6017

[George999]

Hi all, its me again, ever exploring new niches, new possibilities.  This time its Vitamin C.  If you look up Vitamin C on good old wikipedia, you will find that among a number of other essential functions, Vitamin C (which is not really a vitamin in the true sence of the term) has a major role in the healthy formation of collagen.  And if you scan over the web for Vitamin C discussion, you will come across Linus Pauling's scorned theory of 'chronic scurvy'.  Pauling theorized that many health problems encountered by people today are the direct result of insufficient Vitamin C and its resulting effect on the health of various bodily tissues, especially the vasculatory system.  And in fact he asserted that Vitamin C would be useful in the treatment of everything from heart disease to cancer.  But basically all that has gotten simply tossed aside by the mainstream medical community, largely because Pauling was not a medical doctor, but rather a famous chemist.  So basically he has gotten the same treatment in our day as Pastuer (another famous chemist) was treated to centuries ago.   But I am convinced that Pauling's theories make sense.  In the process of deciding how to approach this issue, I have come to the realization that it is common knowledge that the average human body can only process around 400mg of Vitamin C per hour.  All the rest just gets dumped out in the urine (or the feces if you consume enough of it).  So conventional mega-doses make no sense.  BUT, there are now available formulations of Vitamin C which release their ascorbic acid payload fairly evenly over a 3 to 8 hour period.  So now mega doses of C are finally practical without having to take a pill literally every hour.  And so now that is my new addition to my supplement regimin.  I am currently taking about 6g of Vitamin C per day at about 6hr intervals (along with copious amounts of L-Lysine).  I find this really exciting!  We shall see what happens to the tiny little bit of peyronies issue I have left AND we shall also see what additional effect it has on lowering my BP.

[Rico]

I agree on good old vit c...that is why one should snack on good old fruit through out the day....a kiwi here, apple there, not only are you getting many essential vit(vit C), but plenty of fiber..... eating one apple is equivalent to brushing your teeth 500 times....oh and the taste of kiwis and red grapefruits and the list goes on...... the next time you want to pull into the fast food restruant, stop by the grocery and pick up some fruit, I put unsalted almonds(rich in arginine) and walnuts and pecans in baggies along with figs and prunes and grab five pieces of fruit also and put them in my  briefcase and head out the door, I not only feel energize all day, but my waist line looks good, more blood flow for the unit:)......

Are concepts are good, but are thinking is like fast food....more pills.....now that I think of it, this is how the medical community is going, hurry up and wait at the doctor and then a blank stare and some pills....Brilliant!!!!!

Oh yes, don't forget your eight glasses of water today:)!!  I'm serious.....

Rico....

[Pat]

Just to throw the subject out there for discussion... After letting the disease run it's course, and after trying supplements, etc. for a period of time, why not have the surgery done?  What are the risks vs. the benefits?  I understand that you can lose length. Wouldn't that be preferable to dealing with the bend? In my case, the bend is enough to make intercourse difficult, and it causes ED, so erections are weak. My plaque is at the base of the shaft, on the bottom, causing a downward, left bend. Anyone have a similar experience (sure... we all do to varying degrees).

[Tim468]

George - Why the Lysine?

Tim

[Rico]

Pat,

Surgery is the last chance hotel.....have you tried VED?...... take a few looks at the surgery photos.....even the medical knife happy crew doesn't go this route if they don't have to..... I would take a step back and look at your other options....Ved and some meds...or VED alone and some supplements....

Rico

[Rico]

George999,

I agree with you on complex arginine mix.... ornithine and arginine mixed with lysine is pretty common on the body building circuit..... lysine is especially usefull for the non dairy people.....it also is know for it calcium absorbsion.... for the heck of it, I took some regular L-arginine with just a touch of glutamine in it....and I could tell a much less nitric oxide result than when I used the other blend I was taking, you get what you pay for:)..... I found I get a huge pump from l-arginine hci, arginine alpha ketoglutarate, ornithine alpha ketoglutarate, arginine ketoisokaproate and a tri-glutamine complex , l-glutamine, l-glutamine alpha ketoglutarate, n-acety-l-glutamine...
plus l-taurine....I just cycled off this for ten days..... I'm going to go back on here soon for six weeks.... I get plenty of lysine in my diet.....I see that you are taking large amounts and stated your peyronies is almost gone....

That is great news and I'm all ears:)..... please can you give your condition and results and your reasoning behind this amazing feat.....I'm sure I'm not the only one who is curious:).....

Listen...you can hear a pin drop.... please do tell Sir...

Rico

[George999]

Tim, Actually I'm doing the L-Lysine as part of the hypertension routine.  According to Pauling the chemist, most of the garbage that clogs the vascular system and invades the aterial walls is basically disolved away and mobilized by Lysine, since Lysine binds to a key receptor that enables the stuff to stick to and in the arterial walls.  The theory is basically rejected by mainstream practitioners, but Lysine is inexpensive and very safe, so I'm giving it a good shot.  I not sure what if anything it has to do with Peyronies, but I do think there might be interesting connections between Vitamin C and Peyronies, and thats why I posted what I did.  I also think that the recent appearance of the time-release form of Vitamin C presents interesting opportunities.  The Lysine part was just sort of an aside to that.

Pauling's theory was that people tend to have poor diets getting insufficient Vitamin C, which starts a degenerative cycle.  By the time they get their diets straightened out in an attempt to fix the problem, even an extremely healthy diet laden with fresh fruits and vegetables will not provide enough Vitamin C to support repair of the previously induced damage.  Interesting theory rejected by the medical establishment, but I suspect the old man was on to something and I am giving it a shot.  Personally, rather than wallow in self pity over my afflictions, I prefer not to leave any stone unturned in my search for better health.  I even find it fun and challenging, even though it involves choking down lots of pills.  Detractors not withstanding, I somehow suspect the right combination of nutrients can have a major positive impact on our bodies.

One of Pauling's contentions, by the way, was that most animals don't tend to suffer anywhere near the level of cardio-vascular disease that we humans do.  And a key difference between them and us is that they are capable of generating huge amounts of Vitamin C in their animal bodies via internal synthesis.  We humans have zero capability of generating Vitamin C and are totally dependent on dietary intake.

[percival]

Pat
Before you consider surgery you can read about some of the outcomes on this site - see resource library. It depends on the type of surgery, and of course the surgeon, but ED is fairly common afterwards. I suggest you exhaust all other options before taking this route.
Percival