Discussion on recent studies or outcomes on ESWT or Ultrasound. Have you had it? Are you considering it? Cost and availability issues.
Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:16 pm
This place was brought up a while ago on the other forum, they treat peyronies with a shockwave, or whatever.
The person who answered was nice and seemed pretty knowledgable about peyronies...a nice change from the incompetent urologists who can't tell me ANYTHING.
He seemed surprised that somone my age had it and thought my condition was unusual because the lump was on the underside of my penis and the curvature is towards the right (is that really uncommon?).
He told me this treatment only targets the lump. I asked if it can reduce the curvature for my particular case and he couldn't give me an answer.
But I can get an appointment for a consultation free of charge sometime in august. I figure I might aswell go and see what the urologist says.
What have I got lose?
Hawk, Administrator Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:35 pm
I see your point about what do you have to lose. Is there an Peyronies Disease doctor near Toronto? I have a very limited knowledge of ESWT. I think there is little objectice documentation of it working and no real consistant standard on the equipment, technique used, or the schedule of treatment. The same criticism can be made of most Peyronies Disease treatments however.
Do they prefer patients in the acute (early) stage or the cronic stage after the Peyronies Disease has stabilized?
Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:08 pm
I could be wrong, but I think I remember reading that the treatment is most effective for the later stages.
dcaptain Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 1:52 am
There has to be something to the ESWT. I *think* that it's not used here for anything other than stones (kidney, gall), but I have read of athletes, particularly a few baseball players, who have gone to Europe to use ESTW for muscle problems, particularly with their knees. I don't know why the FDA is behind on this one, but nevertheless. If anyone finds anything out, please advise!
Joshua, Global Moderator Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:17 am
Is there anywhere in the states using this method yet?
In discussing treatment options, my ED/Peyronies Disease doctor stated that he would not recommend this treatment because of fear of the trauma produced. That was the extent of our discussion.
DOES ANYONE HAVE EXPERIENCE OR INFORMATION REGARDING THE USE OF ULTRA SOUND THERAPY TO DISSOLVE THE PLAQUE?
I HAVE BEEN USING A 1MHZ DEVISE FOR 3 WEEKS...........BEGINNING SLOWLY.......2 MINUTES 2XDAY..........
THANKS FOR ANY INFO
BO
My urologist recently mentioned a new unproven approach using a hand-held device (I believe it was ultrasound) but hasn't said anything yet about trying it. Maybe I'll ask about it on my next visit, since VI therapy has done nothing for me and my curve has worsened. Please describe the technique further and keep us informed as to any results you get.
You can buy a 3mz handheld Ultrasound unit on ebay (new) for about $150.00. I am not suggesting you do this but the option is there for someone.
Hi ya-ll,
I´m still doing 1mhz ultrasound applications 2x day. Probably a 3mhz devise is the indicated strength, with its penetration being 2-4 cms.
However, I´m using what I have. And this 1mhz is supposed to send sound waves up to 10 cms.............Well, that should be deep enought.
I have noticed, that in my case, where the penis enters the body just below the pubic bone........that even there there are nodules..............
OK..........I would appreciate any information regarding the use and or effectivity or danger of using ultra sound to try and break up the plaque.
Wishing you all HOPE................and a good life.........as it is given to you........
See you later,
Bo
Since this is pretty new territory, the first experience-based info will most likely come from yourself.
By the way, can we assume that those nodules (that you describe as being close to the body) are NOT new ones that developed after starting the ultrasound?
I thought I'd answer a few of the questions posed. I own/run the Peyronies Disease clinic in Oakville, Ontario (near Toronto) that does the ESWT treatment. We have been treating Peyronies Disease for about 2.5 years now. Success is good for men with well defined lumps. More info is available on our website, (www.painfree-eswt.com) or by calling us. Go to the research section, and we also have some patient reports.
There is another clinic operating at Tulane University in New Orleans (not sure of current status), at least one clinic in England and probably more, and one in Germany. There are other doctors expressing interests in the US, and other locations.
So far, from about 200 men treated, we haven't had trauma, just some minor tenderness/bruising in a few cases. We do not agree that treatment is mor effective on older plaques. Our Urologist will consider ESWT after more conservative treatments have bee tried (eg. waiting 6-12 months for spontaneous remission, treatment with Vitamin E)
Hawk is correct that there is no standardized treatment yet among researchers/therapists. However a search of MedLine or similar European engines does return quite a bit of research.
Has anyone had Electric shockwave therapy in the UK,
and who did you see.
I know it is available on the NHS, so did you get it on the NHS aswell.
How did the treatment go?
Thanks
Len
I am in the UK and have been refered by my GP to an NHS Urologist but have been on a 38 week waiting list since May. My GP says that Peyronies Disease is treated by using ESWT. I am having doubts about this treatment at the moment from what I have read on various forums about the potential for further damage. I am currently looking at trying a VED having not had any success from various alternatives such as Nattokinase, Serrapeptase, Naprinol, PABA but have stuck with 800iu of vitamin E.
Hi,
What further damage can it cause?
I was under the impression that it was successfull for pain with no side affects,
Except for a bit of bleeding?
Len
Right, Kevin, the nodules as well as what feels to be lines of hardened tissue (such as veins perhaps) existed BEFORE using ultrasound therapy.
I had to suspend my therapy for several weeks due to extreanous events. However, I have begun again.
Possibly the "little" finger node has reduced.......a little......but not enought to make a claim.
To others...........an Untrasound devise must be used as per instructions that come with the devise. Keep the devise moving, 1 inch per second.
I am doing about 4-5 minutes per session, 1 session per day.
However........I can no reason not to apply therapy 2 times a day.
I´m not with a lot of free time...................but when I obtain certain although minimum results........I WILL inform the forum.
Good luck to all............be inventive................and we can solve this condition.
Bo
I finally got to see an NHS urologist a few weeks ago but he does not recommend ESWT and said the best it could do would be to soften the plaque a bit. Even so he said that the procedure is carried our regularly in the area he covers and I could try it if I wanted. As he was of the opinion that the treatment did not work I declined his offer. He said he freqently carries out Nesbit surgery but that the postion of my plaques near the glans did not make that an option. I told him that I had an indent an upward curve near the glans and that the glans did not errect fully so he said I could come back and see him in 6 months for an implant but also suggested using viagra. As I feel viagra may have played a part together with trauma in my conditon it is something I am reluctant to try again. To try and improve things I am currently using a VED and I am also considering using Thackers formula.
Years ago, when I was working as an ER physician, I worked out a deal with PT/OT to use the US machine for a "problem" (can't recall what I said it was) after hours in the middle of the night, when business was slow. I used the ultrasound as it had been done in some clinical reports. It didn't seem to do anything for my Peyronies Disease. I felt warm while doing it and afterwards, but saw no longterm effects.
Tim
http://www.imperialproductsonline.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=13&products_id=41&zenid=2dd17266f19e8d2d5930f7bccc0a8fc0 (http://www.imperialproductsonline.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=13&products_id=41&zenid=2dd17266f19e8d2d5930f7bccc0a8fc0)
your guys thoughts on this...
$50? Couldn't possibly be a quality unit.
J,
yes, I agree with your assumption and highly doubt it is a quality or durable product but it may provide some benefit for someone looking into a mild, low cost home ultrasound unit.
Note:There are a few new 3mhz units on sale at ebay for under $200
Hi everyone!
I have used ultrasound therapy with some success.....and encourage everyone to try it, but please first consult your physician....
Ultrasound therapy provides heat......that heat can damage healthy tissue or make a serious condition worse.
I am an occuaptional therapist living with peyronie's. I was trained on the use of therapeutic ultrasound prior to me first using it on a patient. Anyone can be trained to use it for a specific condition in a matter of moments, but the outcome is affected by who does the training.
The 1Mhz unit may be benificial, but probably not much.....yes, it does go down into about 2-4 cm of tissue, but right near the surface the heat isn't the strongest. Those who are using it may feel that their hand holding the penis steady is heating up directly under the unit.
Also, it is important to have the correct size ultrasound head. The entire head must be in contact with skin or the ultrasound unit can be damaged....damaged can mean that its performance is unreliable.....become stronger or weaker....
There are contraindications with ultrasound....if you have cancer, you do not want to use it near the cancer site as you can cause the cancer to worsen and even have them enter other areas of your body......this is very bad....
Also, too much heat on the testies can cause sterilization.......and the testies are very close to all pyronie's lesions..for those where sterilization isn't an issue, please remember the testies produce not only sperm, but also testosterone..You do not want to damage any part of the body affecting this as low testosterone may influence the progression of peyronies....
You can burn tissue with therapeutic ultrasound....I have accidently burned patients....the burns go deaper than skin...usually the tissue under the skin can burn first.....also, any bone tissue in the line of the ultrasound can be damaged.....basiclly feels like a bone bruse......it hurts a lot....Those using 1Mhz ultrasound units must remember that your hand has many bones in direct line of use and in the highest degree of heat.....
Please, talk to your physician prior to trying this approach....
As to the units shown for $50 on the internet link above, I really have to question its effectiveness. First, a medical ultrasound device by law can be sold only to people certified in its use....how e-bay gets around this, I don't know......
Second, some of the ad's claims are questionable....melts cellulose???? In that case, any heat would melt away cellulose, unless they mean burning tissue (cellulose and all).....
The ad also said it was based on technology only available in the last decade....well, ultrasound technollogy has been around a lot longer than that....
As a beauty treatment? Well, I saw a picture of a person using one on her face...and if it goes 6 inches deep, then she would be cooking her brain.......well...it would explain her using it again, I guess....
The cheap units may work fine, but if they are not honest about their advertising, then how can you trust them with your penis?????
I really hope everyone gets some benefit from any therapy they pursue......I found ultrasound therapy usefull for me....It reduced a few curves I have.....They do use ultrasound to reduce bone spurs.....so it could be affective for the plaque that has hardend to calcium....that was my thinking when I pursued it.
Best wishes to everyone and please feel free to email me if you have any questions....I don't have all the answers, but I may have some :)
Ultrasound provides heat to all tissue it comes in contact with....
Oh....My wife is a massage therapist and she said she never heard of spas or massage clinics using ultrasound....
One more thing, If you are interested in pursuing ultrasound, your physician may not know how to use one, but may instead send you to a physical therapy clinic so that a therapist can show you how to safely go through the treatment. Also, chiropractors use ultrasound a lot and may be able to show you how to safely use one....
Great Post! I certainly will have more questions for you..
Thanks
Has anyone actually tried this treatment with any results?
Has anyone heard of or tried it at this place near Toronto, Canada?
http://www.painfree-eswt.com/
ComeBackid
Here is a research paper that used ultrasound as part of their treatment. Remember, get some training from a professional prior to using ultrasound (even the units purchased from companies selling to the public):
American Journal of Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation: Volume 80(8) August 2001 pp 583-585
Physical Treatment of Peyronie Disease
Skenderovic Culibrk, Miroslava; Culibrk, Bogdan
From the Departments of Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation and Rheumatology (MSC) and Urology (BC), Medical Center, Subotica, Yugoslavia.
Abstract
Culibrk MS: Physical treatment of Peyronie disease. Am J Phys Med Rehabil 2001;80:583-585.
Objective:
Peyronie disease is a localized and progressive fibrosis. It is characterized by a plaque in the tunica albuginea, which leads to penile deformity, making sexual intercourse difficult, if not impossible.
Design:
During a 4-yr period, we treated 35 patients, aged 30-62 yr, in different stages of this disease. We applied ultrasound therapy (0.5 W/cm; 10 min), infrared radiation, and iontophoresis with 8% potassium iodide (0.2 mA; 30 min). The patients were taught to administer therapy by themselves. The patients' diseases were classified into three stages on the basis of subjective symptoms and clinical findings. At the beginning of treatment, 20 patients' diseases were classified as being in the first stage, 13 patients' diseases in the second stage, and 2 patients' diseases in the third stage.
Results:
By the end of treatment, 10 patients were cured, 17 patients' diseases were classified as being in the first stage, 8 patients' diseases were in the second stage, and there were no patients in the third stage.
Conclusions:
The method is simple, safe, painless, and inexpensive. Patients were taught to administer the therapy by themselves. There were no side effects. Functional improvement and the cessation of pain were noted by all the patients. The level of improvement depended on the disease duration, the length of therapy, and the stage of the disease.
Peyronie disease is a localized and progressive fibrosis that effects the tunica albuginea of the penis (Fig. 1). Francois de la Peyronie was the first to describe this disease in 1743. 1 The cause of this disease is still unknown. Antigen frequencies of HLA-DR2 and HLA-DQW2 were detected by histocompatibility leukocyte antigen (HLA) typing, 2-4 which suggests a possible autoimmunologic origin. Pathoanatomically, fibrosing plaques are clearly limited to the dorsal side of the penis. Lateral localization is not common, and ventral localization is extremely unusual. An excessive deposition of collagen gives rise to a plaque, which is initially fibrotic and then becomes calcified. 5 Diagnosis is established on the basis of anamnesis and clinical examination. The symptoms of Peyronie disease include subjective complaints: pain in the penis, distortion of the penis during erection, disturbance during coitus, and occasional impotence.
Figure 1: Peyronie disease is a localized and progressive fibrosis that effects the tunica albuginea of the penis.
The indurations are distinctly limited from their surroundings and of a solid consistency. The skin above is free and mobile. The indurations never affect the corpora cavernosa. The size and number of the indurations vary with each individual. The differential diagnosis includes benign and malignant tumors. 6 Causal therapy is not possible because of the unknown origin.
Therapy includes local injections (corticosteroid, anesthetic, hilase preparation, and verapamil) for local infiltration of the plaques 7 and oral orgotein, 8 tamoxifen, 9 and collagenase, 10 etc. Roentgen radiation and radiotherapy are also used. 11, 12 Surgical treatment can be used in selected cases. 13-15 Physical therapy includes laser therapy, infrared radiation, ultrasound, and iontophoresis of various drugs. 16-18
MATERIALS AND METHODS TOP
During 4 yr (1995-1999), 35 patients were included in a prospective study. All patients had been previously treated with local injection therapy (Hilase (Forschunginstitut, Dessau), corticosteroid, and anesthetic) in the plaque, but without satisfying results. The patients were between 30 and 62 yr (mean age, 50 yr). The duration of the disorder in the patients was more than 6 months. After physical examination and after the stage of illness was determined by the urologist, all patients were sent to the Department of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation for treatment.
The patient's disease was classified into one of three stages on the basis of subjective symptoms and clinical findings. The most important criteria for determining the stage of the illness was the presence of pain during erection with the possibility of coitus: stage I-periodic and spontaneous pain in the penis, less penile pain during erection, no curvature of the penis, intercourse possible; stage II-spontaneous pain during erection, penile curvature during erection, intercourse painful (mostly impossible); stage III-penile curvature expressive, decreased erection, intercourse impossible.
If the patient's disease was between two stages, his disease was classified as being at the heavier stage. During examination, which was compulsory after every series of physical procedures, the level of improvement and possible change of the illness stage were determined. Every series consisted of ten ultrasound therapies, ten infrared radiations, and ten iontophoresis with 8% potassium iodide. The time interval between the series was 6 wk at least. All patients underwent all three kinds of therapies in the series. The patients were taught to use the therapy themselves (Fig. 2).
Figure 2: The patients were taught to administer the therapy themselves.
We started every treatment with ultrasound therapy. The continual insonation lasted 10 min (intensity 0.5 W/cm2), according to the principles of ultrasound, in the series of ten procedures.
A further series of ten radiation treatments of the penis with infrared rays, lasting 15 min at a distance of 50 cm, followed as an introductory procedure of iontophoresis (Fig. 3).
Figure 3: Iontophoresis.
As the active electrode for iontophoresis with 8% potassium iodide, we used a cathode (7 × 5 cm) on the induration of the penis and a different electrode (3 × 3 cm) on the front side of the upper leg (duration, 30 min).
RESULTS TOP
At the beginning of treatment, 20 patients were classified with diseases in the first stage, 13 patients with diseases in the second stage, and 2 patients with diseases in the third stage (Fig. 4).
Figure 4: Beginning of treatment.
By the end of treatment, 10 patients were cured, 17 patients were classified as having first-stage disease, 8 patients as having second-stage disease, and no patients had third-stage disease (Fig. 5).
Figure 5: End of treatment.
The sharp line to normal tunica albuginea disappears during therapy. Induration plaque is divided into several smaller plaques, which are separated by normal tunica of different consistencies. Pain during erection disappears after one or two series in 80% of the patients. The series was repeated, depending on the results of the treatment, two to ten times (mean, 4 times). If the stage of illness was lower, fewer series were required. The treatment was finished when the patient was satisfied with the results of the treatment.
By the end of treatment, ten patients were cured (no traces of illness in morphologic and functional forms). Two patients with stage III illness of long duration had their diseases classified to a milder disease stage, stage II (penis curvature was less, erection was possible with less pain; however, coitus was not possible).
Six patients' diseases remained at the same stage (stage II). Although the improvement that appeared in all of these patients was both subjective and objective (diminishing pain and softening plaque), the main criterion for the first stage of illness was not fulfilled, the possibility of coitus.
Seven patients' diseases were reclassified from stage II to stage I because after therapy, they satisfied all the criteria of that stage. Ten patients' diseases remained at stage I. Although their objective problems disappeared and their functional status was satisfying, the plaque traces were still present, so we did not consider them cured.
CONCLUSION TOP
The results of this study may be summarized as follows. After 4 yr of using this therapy, we can conclude that this method is simple, safe, painless, and inexpensive. Patients are taught to administer the therapy by themselves, which they tolerate well, and there were no side effects. Functional improvement and the loss of pain were noted with all patients, but the level of improvement depended on disease duration, the length of using the therapy, and the stage of the disease. If the stage of illness was lower, fewer series were needed.
REFERENCES TOP
1. Dunsmuir WD, Kirby RS: Francois de la Peyronie (1678-1747): The man and the disease he described. Br J Urol 1996; 78: 613-22
[Fulltext Link] [Medline Link] [Context Link]
2. Ralph DJ, Mirakian R, Proyor JP: The immunological features of Peyronie's disease. J Urol 1996; 155: 159-62
[Fulltext Link] [Medline Link] [CrossRef] [Context Link]
3. Rompel R, Mueller-Eckhardt G, Schroeder-Printzen, et al: HLA antigens in Peyronie's disease. Urol Int 1994; 52: 34-7
[Context Link]
4. Rompel R, Weidner W, Mueller-Eckhardtg : HLA association of idiopathic Peyronie's disease: An indication of autoimmune phenomena in etiopathogenesis. Tissue Antigens 1991; 38: 104-6
[Medline Link] [Context Link]
5. Anafarta K, Beduk Y, Uluogu O, et al: The significance of histopathological changes of the normal tunica albuginea in Peyronie's disease. Urol Nephrol 1994; 26: 71-7
[Context Link]
6. Huang DJ, Stanisic TH, Hansen-KK : Epithelioid sarcoma of the penis. J Urol 1992; 147: 1370-2
[Medline Link] [Context Link]
7. Levine LA, Merrick PF, Lee RC: Interlesional verapamil injection for the treatment of 90 Peyronie's disease. J Urol 1994; 151: 1522-4
[Context Link]
8. Primus G: Orgotein in the treatment of plastic induration of the penis (Peyronie's disease). Int Urol Nephrol 1993; 25: 169-72
[Medline Link] [Context Link]
9. Ralph DJ, Brooks MD, Bottazzo GF, et al: The treatment of Peyronie's disease with tamoxifen Br J Urol 1992; 70: 648-51
[Medline Link] [Context Link]
10. Gelbard MK, Linder A, Kaufman JJ: The use of collagenase in the treatment of Peyronie's disease J Urol 1985; 134: 280
[Medline Link] [Context Link]
11. Rodrigues CI, Njo KH, Karim AB: Results of radiotherapy and vitamin E in the treatment of Peyronie's disease. Int J Radiat Oncol Biol Phys 1995; 31: 571-6
[Medline Link] [Context Link]
12. Viljoen IM, Goedhals L, Doman MJ: Peyronie's disease: A perspective on the disease and the long-term results of radiotherapy. S Afr Med J 1993; 83: 19-20
[Context Link]
13. Rigand G, Bekger RE: Corrective procedures for penile shortening due to Peyronie's disease. J Urol 1995; 153: 368-70
[Context Link]
14. Kim ED, Mc Vary KT: Long-term follow up of treatment of Peyronie's disease with plaque incision, carbon dioxide laser plaque ablation and placement of a deep dorsal vein patch graft. J Urol 1995; 153: 1843-6
[Fulltext Link] [Medline Link] [CrossRef] [Context Link]
15. Perovic S, Milosevic A, Djordjevic M: The new approach to the surgical treatment of Peyronie's disease. Eur Urol Video J 1999; 6: 5-7
[Context Link]
16. Mantovani F, Mastromarino G, Colombo F, et al: Non-surgical therapy of impotence: Infiltration iontophoresis, ultrasound, laser. Arch Ital Urol Nefrol Androl 1992; 64: 255-61
[Medline Link] [Context Link]
17. Mazo VE: A new method for treating Peyronie's disease. Khirurgiia(Sofiia) 1989; 42: 30-1
[Context Link]
18. Felipetto R, Vigano L, Pagui GL, et al: Laser and ultrasonic therapy in simultaneous emission for the treatment of plastic penile induration. Minerva Urol Nefrol 1995; 47: 25-9
Hope this helps someone :)
REad this- this was a 4-year process???_- what is your opinion-
Hopeful??
QuoteDesign:
During a 4-yr period, we treated 35 patients, aged 30-62 yr, in different stages of this disease. We applied ultrasound therapy (0.5 W/cm; 10 min), infrared radiation, and iontophoresis with 8% potassium iodide (0.2 mA; 30 min). The patients were taught to administer therapy by themselves. The patients' diseases were classified into three stages on the basis of subjective symptoms and clinical findings. At the beginning of treatment, 20 patients' diseases were classified as being in the first stage, 13 patients' diseases in the second stage, and 2 patients' diseases in the third stage.
Tried ESWT around 18 months ago(privately at a Glasgow Hospital) with no noticeable improvement and the only effect being a small surface bruise which disappeared after a few days.The staff administering the therapy did say they had experience of the treatment being effective.The cost was around £1200
Define effective? They probably can't, see I''ve become so skeptical now, after seeing a study on TV and using it, and it not working. Now I saw a more credible study on the IONO, coming from Dr. Levine, now I'm using it and it isn't working. From now on for me to believe a treatment to work it will take more than one or two, or even three studies. After my IONO I'm better off trying alternative treatments no matter how crazy they sound, the medically proven treatments aren't working. Even in Dr. Levine's study he can't conclude that verapamil is working, he said it could be the electrical current alone.
Effective - successful in removing £1200 from the patient's wallet. :P
I initially posted this under the "Oral Treatments" topic and then realized it was off topic there - my appologies. It probably fits better here.
Interesting article related to healing of connective tissue:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060714/hl_nm/ultrasound_good_drugs_bad_knee_injury_dc;_ylt=AskwBbzuxDgQC3tptzEcxrms0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3czJjNGZoBHNlYwM3NTE-
Here is another referrence to pulsed ultrasound:
http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/13/03/20.html
Anyone aware of any pulsed ultrasound treatments for peyronies? Also perhaps this could serve as a red flag when it comes to NSAIDs?
George999,
I haven't talked to one person(and I've talked to a lot) that said ultrasound therapy worked. I think a british guy who waited months to get it done, just recently reported on here he saw no results, Tim the doctor, also said awhile back because he is a doctor, got a hold of an ultra sound unit and tried it, with absolutely no results. I don't know if they used these so called pulsed ultra sound sequences. I wonder if sometimes we try to connect the dots to much between one treatment to healing one kind of connective tissue, to peyronies. I do realize we must keep experimenting and trying new things though.
ComeBackid
ComeBackid,
What have you read on infrasonic and what do you think of this? Thank you.
Rico....
Rico,
Haven't read up on it much, I don't think Dr. Levine or Dr. Mulhall recommend this type of treatment for peyronies. I have yet to see a single credible study saying it works. I haven't heard one person tell me they tried it and it worked. I don't rule it out as a possible treatment for peyronies but I'm skeptical these days, after so many things not holding through as successful treatments, even with studies backing them up. I don't even think my local urologist would allow me to have this kind of treatment, considering they won't give me a penile ultrasound.
ComeBackid
ComeBackid,
Thanks, I have just started to read up on it more, seems more passive than ultra. I will keep you posted on my studies, I know they use it with horses.
Rico
ComeBackid,
What I found to be interesting on Infrasonic healing is that it produces hyaluronic acid in the scar tissues, making it dissolve. If you look up hyaluronic acid you find that they have been using it recently injected into scar tissue with success. It is something you may already looked into, I will keep you posted on my findings. Thanks.
Rico
Found this about infrasound healing. PRRRRRRRR
News Source: Townsend Letter for Doctors & Patients
Date Released: April, 2003
Website: www.tldp.com
CHI Institute Presents Conclusive Studies Proving Healing Effect of Sound
by Staff Writer
Location Text Here - Recent studies are revealing how purring may be the secret to cats' nine lives. CHI Institute is the first to release studies that conclusively corroborate the healing results from infrasonic sound waves on humans and other animals.
Recent unreleased studies from the Fauna Communications Research Institute in Hillsborough, North Carolina have given evidence of the healing effect of purring in cats. Scientists there have determined that the frequency at which many cats purr, between 27 and 44 hertz for house cats, matches the frequency that seems to help human bones strengthen and grow. Biologists still don't know what generates purring in felines. They do know that cats purr, not only when they are happy, but also when injured. They heal quickly from bone and tissue injuries caused by impact of falling great distances.
Cats are not the only creatures that use sound for healing. Even humans have been measured emitting varying degrees of low-frequency sound waves. The Beijing Acoustics Institute found that Qi-Gong healers emit up to 100 times the level of infrasonic waves as the average person emits, and up to 1,000 times greater than those emitted by the infirmed. Chinese researchers built a device that replicated the patterns and frequencies of the Qi-gong healers. After they discovered clinical evidence of healing from the devices, CHI Institute founder, Richard Lee, teamed up with the Chinese engineer, Lu Yan Fang, to create a more precisely tuned device for improved reliability and effectiveness.
Twelve years later, CHI Institute is the first organization to present conclusive evidence proving the healing effect of sound from several independent research studies. The studies show that infrasound therapy improves measurements in EEG, EKG, thermogram, and AST/CPK diagnostic enzyme levels. In April 2002, a serological study performed by Ronald Riegal, DVM, showed improvement in the form of an increase in hyaluronic acid quality and concentration in joint lubrication after using CHI Institute's Equisonic QGM on joints in horses.
In addition to the scientific studies, thousands of medical doctors have already observed first-hand the results of therapeutic infrasound. Merle Janes, MD states, "I am using the machine in daily practice. I tried it on my cat, and she immediately flopped down, curled up and half-closed her eyes and purred away. Must've seemed to her like her momma cat had come back."
While 35% of CHI Institute's customers report near-miraculous results in improving their acute and chronic ailments, 96% of users report satisfactory to excellent benefits from infrasound therapy for reducing pain and and inflammation, improving circulation and accelerating the healing process.
source - http://www.healingmusic.org/Library/Newsroom/CHIInstitutePresentsConclusiveStudiesProvingHealingEffectofSound.asp
Several points in responses to other posts:
The four years period in the study (post below on ultrasound) refers to a period of time during which data wre collected. As not all patients walk in on the same first day, but rather trickle in over time, one needs to look at a group of patients over time to see trends. If one looks at enough patients in four years, then that is when you collate data and write it up. The problem with a 30 year study like that is that other therapies change a lot, so cause and effect is harder to see.
As ultrasound therapy becomes more sophisticated - hopefully as any therapy becomes more sophisticated - we will see more clearly how it might help us (or not). I am unsure of the data presented - like many that have come before, it is not really controlled or blinded.
Tim
Stating the obvious.
Ultrasound is very high frequency.
Infrasound is very low frequency.
How they are supposed to work is opposite as well.
I also read somewhere (forgot where) that ultrasound can be used to drive topical medication into tissue (sort of like DMSO I suppose). Anyone else ever heard or read anything about that aspect?
What I'm reading is that the infrasonic is suppose to increase the hyaluronic acid in the area, which only healthy tissue can survive, this is why the scar tissue dissolves and promotes the healthy tissue to rebuild. So read the articles. Any thoughts on this Brothers?
British Journal of Dermatology
Volume 154 Page 755 - April 2006
doi:10.1111/j.1365-2133.2005.07074.x
Volume 154 Issue 4
CASE REPORT
Cutaneous granulomatous reaction to injectable hyaluronic acid gel
M. Ghislanzoni, F. Bianchi, M. Barbareschi and E. Alessi
Summary
Injectable hyaluronic acid (HA) derivatives are the most used reabsorbable dermal fillers for soft tissue augmentation today and their utilization is considered safe. We report a cutaneous granulomatous reaction that developed in a woman 5 weeks after the first treatment with a nonanimal HA derivative for the correction of facial wrinkling. We describe the clinicopathological findings and course of the cutaneous reaction. The adverse reaction showed clinical and histopathological characteristics comparable to the few previously reported cases. All cutaneous lesions spontaneously disappeared without scars within 3 months. We conclude that even nonanimal injectable HA derivatives can be associated with delayed granulomatous reactions. The patient should be informed of this potential long-term complication.
Dermatologic Surgery
Volume 27 Page 185 - February 2001
doi:10.1046/j.1524-4725.2001.00248.x
Volume 27 Issue 2
Human Anti-Hyaluronic Acid Antibodies: Is it Possible?
Patrick Micheels, MD
Background. Although hyaluronan has been acknowledged as being free of species and organ specificity, for 4 years I have encountered a variety of adverse reactions to injectable hyaluronic acid as used in aesthetic medicine.
Objective. I have tried to prove that some of those side effects may be allergic reactions to the commercial preparations of injectable hyaluronic acid.
Methods. I began with intradermal tests to the reactive patients and to 2 witnesses; then lymphocyte transforming tests were performed at the University of Geneva (Switzerland). Histology was performed on the skin tests and on reactive treated areas of the face of different patients. A serum analysis was then done by Pr. Sainte Laudy of Laboratoire Pasteur—Cerba (France).
Results. The skin tests were positive for one or the other or both of the injectable hyaluronic acid preparations used in aesthetic medicine. The different biopsies have shown for some a chronic inflammatory reaction, even 11 months after the treatment or a severe granulamatous reaction to foreign bodies. Serum analysis revealed positive antibodies against Restylane and/or Hylaform and even IgG and E anti-hyaluronic acid.
Conclusion. Since 1995, I have 8 patients with adverse reactions to injectable hyaluronic acid, which after several tests, may be allergic to those products. Isn't it time to introduce intradermal tests before any injection of this type, as done with injectable bovine collagen?
Link to 1,785 matches for hyaluronic acid:
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/action/doSearch?type=simple&target=simple&restrict=all&searchText=hyaluronic+acid+&filter=all&journal=abac&discipline=-1&group=-1&searchbuttonmain.x=38&searchbuttonmain.y=9
Could you please have some of your 200 plus patients join the Forum- and post their reults? This would be hepful to anyone who is considering this treatment.
Hopeful
Quote from: robm on October 23, 2005, 05:30:30 PM
So far, from about 200 men treated, we haven't had trauma, just some minor tenderness/bruising in a few cases. We do not agree that treatment is mor effective on older plaques. Our Urologist will consider ESWT after more conservative treatments have bee tried (eg. waiting 6-12 months for spontaneous remission, treatment with Vitamin E)
Hawk is correct that there is no standardized treatment yet among researchers/therapists. However a search of MedLine or similar European engines does return quite a bit of research.
Tim, do you have any more information on the ultrasound therepy? I would assume that this is something you would have to continue doing on an intermittent basis, since the cause of Peyronie's is probablly still present. Any news?
The following is an abstract of an self-evaluation that the PainFree ESWT clinic in Toronto Canada claims to have achieved. This was sent directly to me by The PainFree clinic. I certainly make no claim, or endorsement. I have no reason to either accept or reject this data but present it as it was presented to me.
Quote
EXTRACORPOREAL SHOCK WAVE TREATMENT (ESWT) FOR PEYRONIE'S DISEASE – SINGLE CENTER CONTINUING EXPERIENCE
Anil Kapoor MD, Michael Asumeng RN, Faten Mitchell BSc.
PainFree ESWT, Toronto, Ontario, Canada
March 2007
INTRODUCTION AND OBJECTIVES: ESWT has been described as a noninvasive
treatment modality for patients with Peyronie's Disease (Peyronies Disease). Our previous research suggests this treatment is an efficacious and minimal sideeffect method of treating Peyronie's Disease (Peyronies Disease). To date we have treated over 250 Peyronies Disease patients, and report on our latest experience of 53 Peyronies Disease patients treated with ESWT at a single Canadian institution.
METHODS: 57 patients underwent ESWT for Peyronies Disease from January 2006 to February 2007 at our
center. A prior diagnosis of Peyronies Disease made by a urologist was necessary for referral to our center. Patients were asked to stop all bloodthinners one week prior to procedure. Peyronies Disease assessment was done by the center's urologist and, if appropriate candidate, proceeded with ESWT. Treatment consisted of 6 treatments of 30005000 shocks to Peyronie's plaque over four consecutive days at power level 68 using a Siemens Sonocur lithotripter.
Pre and post treatment questionnaires were filled, and the patient contacted 46
Weeks after treatment. Data from the questionnaire was categorized in a conservative manner. Only 'Yes' was counted as an affirmative answer; 'No', 'unsure', 'forgot', 'can't tell' were all counted as a negative response.
Data was collected from 53 of the 57 patients treated at this time. The sample size for each question varies from 17 to 49 respondents, as not all symptoms applied to all patients. For example, only 17 of 53 patients had pain.
RESULTS: Of the 53 patients, all underwent successful ESWT. There were no procedure related
complications. Average age was 54 years and 8 months, and patients had the disease for an average of 2.6 years. 75.5% (37 of 49) of patients reported improvement in the Peyronie's plaque, characterized by decrease in size and thickness of the plaque. 63% (31 of 49) of patients reported improvement in the degree of penile curvature. 82% (14 of 17) patients reported decreased pain with erections and intercourse.
Patients were also asked subjective questions about the quality of their erection. 45% and 39% of
respondents felt that some penile length, and girth had been improved. 60% reported improvement in hardness, and 75% (30 of 40) felt penetration had been enabled, or improved. The baseline was lower as some patients were not sexually active, or did not answer the question.
Approximately 19% of patients reported no change in condition after treatment.
CONCLUSIONS: ESWT is a reasonable noninvasive option for the treatment of Peyronie's
Disease. Complications and side effects are minimal. Results to date indicate 75% of patients report
decrease in plaque size, 63% report decrease in penile curvature, and 82% decrease in penile pain. Longer term followup is necessary to evaluate efficacy.
Disclosure: All authors have received financial support from PainfreeESWT
You can guess my response.
Where are the objective measures?
Any treatment ever suggested in this forum has had someone who said it helped. Some of the treatments were not accepted as credible by most members. Yet some reported improvement. My point is patient surveys are inherently flawed. EWST may prove to be the greatest therapy ever. This report does not prove it, though.
There's now a whole group of therapies - like ESWT, TV, cold laser, and hyperthermia - that are claimed to work on Peyronie's, but no mention is ever made of Dupuytren's. I think there's a simple reason for that: they don't work, and that would be blindingly obvious if they were tried on Dupuytren's contractures.
They also represent existing products, with no development costs, looking for new markets. Peyronie's is an easy market to enter because there's currently no effective non-surgical treatment to compete with.
It is true that Easterling's (PDL) web site still refers to Dupuytren's but as I know, no one tries it for DC anymore. A few years ago he spammed the BSTC Dupuytren's message board and a few people tried it. As far as I know it did nothing, and I think Easterling has stopped marketing it for Dupuytren's.
These are just my opinions. I'm not a doctor.
J,
I think you make some good points. I tend to agree but this time you got my brain activated and I wonder if it has ever even been tried on DC. I also ask if everything that works on one should just be accepted as working on the other? One is a ligament and one is specialized tissue. I think of pentox, arginine, and PDE5 inhibitors. You could argue they are not known to work or that N.O. is not a factor with DC, but maybe the last point actually addresses my point. If the fabled Lariche technique works, could it be that ESWT has a similar action of breaking the plaque especially if used in conjunction with traction?
How about the many other related types of fibrosis?
There is no argument that existing technology is a cheaper attempt, but existing technology cannot just be dismissed on those grounds. New applications for existing technology are found every single day.
Thanks for the thought provoking comments. I am still thinking....
Besides being strongly statistically linked, at the cellular level it appears they're essentially the same condition - fibroblasts gone haywire, producing an extracellular matrix of inelastic collagen. None of these therapies has the ability to break the molecular bonds of those collagen molecules in sufficient numbers to make any difference. It's been hypothesized that verapamil enhances production of collagenase (which lyses collagen) in adjacent cells; however it seems no one can get that to work in the human body.
Dupuytren's doesn't modify the ligaments, although Dupuytren's tissue may attach to them. Here's a link to one of several studies I've seen over the years leading to the conclusion (which is actually stated in this abstract) that what works for one should probably work for the other. Note that AA4500/Xiaflex is effective on both; that's because the tissue is the same.
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=16035818
J,
On a quick read on the way out the door, that seemed to say there are some common qene expressions and some that are unique. It concluded based on the common expressions that they may benefit for common treatments. Is this how you read it?
This seems like a very reasonable conclusion that I have never doubted. It seem like you take the position that they would without any doubt benefit from the same treatments.
Would you conclude that the pentox, arginine, viagra combo would be a good treatment attempt for DC or would you conclude that is not a promising treatment for Peyronies Disease?
I certainly wouldn't say 'without doubt' but as more studies come out over the years, the conclusion is being reinforced that the cellular changes are identical. I recall seeing a couple of other study abstracts that were more detailed, but right now I can't Google them up - a lot of that content has been moving to "pay per view".
I first went to a hand surgeon for Dupuytren's about 10 years ago. He'd seen a lot of Dupuytren's, stated flatly that "Dupuytren's is a disease that affects 3 parts of the body" and told me exactly what to expect. I didn't have Lederhose or Peyronie's at that point; but within 5 years I had both. I have to admit that this all too accurate prediction has influenced my thinking.
While the cellular pathology may be similar or identical, there might be multiple causes. If the root cause of this loss of cellular regulation is genetic, it might be fairly intractable; but if some metabolic or 'lifestyle' factor pushes the fibroblasts into this zone, that might be addressed by a drug or supplement.
I have yet to see any convincing evidence that Pentox/Arginine/Viagra even work on Peyronie's, and have never heard of those drugs being tried against Dupuytren's or the other related conditions. 5-fluororacil was tried a few years ago on DC (on a small number of patients) and it failed. It would be very interesting if someone like Dr. Tom Lue talked to people working on Dupuytren's.
Again, all just my opinions, based on nothing but reading the web over the years.
Prospective Randomized Controlled Double Blind Trial Of Shock Wave Therapy (SWT) Vs. Sham Treatment In Men With Peyronie's Disease (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/113569.php)
Quote from: UroToday.comThis study from from the UK may have put to rest the use of extracorporeal shock wave lithotripsy (ESWL) for the treatment of Peyronie's Disease plaques.
And:
Can Extracorporeal Shock Wave Therapy Induce Peyronie's-Like Plaque In Normal Penis? (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/113546.php)
Quote from: UroToday.comThis study out of Sao Paolo, Brazil showed that shock wave therapy (SWT) can actually induce tissue injury to the tunica albuginea to form a Peyronie's plaque in normal tissue.
I read som articles about the use of ultrasound, and found a dosage of 0,5 W/cm2 for 5 min one place. What is the carrier frequency? ( my apparatus has a choice of 1 MHz and 3 MHz)
Also - should the pulse frecquency be cont. or pulsed ? Grateful for answer
No clue regarding that question gbja.
Years ago, when I worked as an ER doctor, during quiet (long quiet) spells during the night, I would use the ultrasound at the same settings that they had used for joints and fasciitis (sp?) and tried it out - no better - though things warmed up while I did it. I do not recall the settings though.
Where did you find the data that you reported?
Tim
can anyone comment on this:
In the study, researchers at the Hôpital Foch in Suresnes, France, investigated a technique called extracorporeal shock wave therapy (ESWT), commonly used to split and break up kidney stones, to treat 54 men with Peyronie's.
Of the 35 patients that had pain on erection, 91% noticed relief immediately after treatment. Twenty-nine patients (54%) noticed an improvement in penile angle, and 25 thought the plaque had been smoothed by the procedure. Overall, 61% of patients said their condition had improved after the therapy. Only 9 patients (16%) thought it was inadequate and went on to surgery.
"On the basis of these results, we conclude that ESWT could become a valuable tool in the therapeutic arsenal to successfully treat Peyronie's disease," write the authors in their study, which is published in the current issue Urology.
I suspect it may have application for those with palpable plaque that is perhaps solidified or calcified, but will prove less helpful for those with dents or smaller scars.
Simply put, it breaks up things that are built up, so if your disease does not include a buildup of something that you can palpate, it will probably not be helped.
Time will tell if this works outside of this hospital - this why multi-center blinded and randomized studies are so important.
Tim
So Tim,
Would you say that I am calcified after more than 3 years of Peyronie's Disease? I have a plaques (it feels more like a cord) that runs along almost the entire right side of my penis, causing a horrible bend to the right, which experts say is worse than bending up or down.
Do you think ESTW is worth trying, assuming I can get a doctor to perform it?
Bo
Pulsed ultrasound is for acute conditions and continuous is for chronic conditions. This is usually regarding inflammation lasting longer than about 72 hours so I would use continuous.
Sorry for delay of answer: this is the link: http://www.laserpartner.org/lasp/web/en/2000/0006.htm
:)
Hello,
I am new here and as you may assume, I am suffering from La Peyronie's disease, I just got diagnosed a couple of weeks ago, thank you for welcoming me...
I am about to start the verapamil injections, but I have heard about the ESWL treatment that stand for Extracorporeal Shock Wave Lithotripsy "Using a standard lithotriptor ??? (Siemens Multiline) on «young» plaques (less than 6 months)."
Have you heard anything about it? Is it related to the topic ESWT
Yours,
atchoum
atchoum,
Welcome (unfortunately).... you will find mixed reactions here regarding the Verapamil injections. Several have had complications just from the injections. But there are documented studies where the injections did help, but I believe it was in conjunction with either VED or traction therapy in addition to the injections. I had 6 of them and didn't notice any improvement at all. I was fortunate in that I did not have any complications or side effects from the injections.
The ESWT topic has come up several times. It seems there is a lot of interest in it but I'm not aware of anyone on this forum who has had any treatments nor any success with it. But one thing to remember is that there is no single cure that works for everyone, so each person needs to pursue their own choices of therapies to see what works for them.
The article on shockwave therapy is from 2003 and I have seen no good followup study published. That usually means that the early data did not pan out with larger numbers of patients, or that the original numbers were not that good to start with.
Tim
Quote from: lwillisjr on January 25, 2009, 02:30:02 PM
atchoum,
Welcome (unfortunately).... you will find mixed reactions here regarding the Verapamil injections. Several have had complications just from the injections. But there are documented studies where the injections did help, but I believe it was in conjunction with either VED or traction therapy in addition to the injections. I had 6 of them and didn't notice any improvement at all. I was fortunate in that I did not have any complications or side effects from the injections.
:) Hello lwillisjr an thank you for your answers,
You talk about side effects and complications from the Verapamil injections, what could they be ?
Quote from: lwillisjr on January 25, 2009, 02:30:02 PM
The ESWT topic has come up several times. It seems there is a lot of interest in it but I'm not aware of anyone on this forum who has had any treatments nor any success with it. But one thing to remember is that there is no single cure that works for everyone, so each person needs to pursue their own choices of therapies to see what works for them.
So no one really on this forum has tryed the ESWT/ESWL so far ?
By looking at statistics of the two treatments, my brother (who's a Dermatologist) said that the results obtained with Verapamil are more significant, he also said to ask my doctor about injecting corticoids into the plaques since he does that with patients who present skin scares that turned fibrous. Has that option ever been tried ?
I am not proposing here a treatment. it is only a question a doctor (who's not a specialist in this matter) wants me to ask to another Doctor (who's a specialist in the matter)...
atchoum
Quote from: Tim468 on January 25, 2009, 04:55:42 PM
The article on shockwave therapy is from 2003 and I have seen no good followup study published. That usually means that the early data did not pan out with larger numbers of patients, or that the original numbers were not that good to start with.
Tim
:) Hello,
Yes I could not find recent studies myself...
Here's the summary from he french study I mentionned before (2000)...
"Extracorporeal shock wave lithotripsy (ESWL) in the treatment of La Peyronie disease. Use of a standard lithotriptor (Siemens Multiline) on «young» plaques (less than 6 months).
Objectives: The treatment of La Peyronie disease is still controversal. ESWL has been recently proposed to treat symptomatic plaques.The results, although discordant and often based on subjective assessment criteria, appear to show a certain degree of efficacy on so-called young plaques, i.e. during the acute phase of the disease.This study was designed to evaluate the results obtained with a classical lithotriptor (Siemens Multiline) on plaques present for less than 6 months.
Material and Method: 26 patients were included in this prospective study.All presented a painful plaque on erection.The plaque was palpated under general anaesthesia and 0.5 to 2 ml of contrast agent were injected to allow radiological visualization.All patients received 3000 impacts at a power of 7 kilo-joules in 1 session and all were reviewed 1 month and 3 months after the ESWL session.
Results : Treatment was perfectly tolerated. Among the 26 patients treated : 19 patients (73%) reported a very marked reduction of pain on erection and 8 (31%) reported a reduction of curvature on erection, but this reduction was demonstrated objectively (by tracing or photographs) for only 3 patients (11%).Seven patients (27%) experienced softening of the plaque. Six (37%) of the patients suffering from erectile dysfunction reported improvement of the quality of erection, as reflected by the HEF score.
Conclusion: A standard lithotriptor can be used to treat La Peyronie plaques. ESWL appears to have a marked analgesic effect, but its efficacy on correction of curvature of the penis was not demonstrated in this study"...Regards,
Atchoum
Quote from: Iceman on October 21, 2008, 04:43:35 AM
can anyone comment on this:
In the study, researchers at the Hôpital Foch in Suresnes, France, investigated a technique called extracorporeal shock wave therapy (ESWT), commonly used to split and break up kidney stones, to treat 54 men with Peyronie's.
Of the 35 patients that had pain on erection, 91% noticed relief immediately after treatment. Twenty-nine patients (54%) noticed an improvement in penile angle, and 25 thought the plaque had been smoothed by the procedure. Overall, 61% of patients said their condition had improved after the therapy. Only 9 patients (16%) thought it was inadequate and went on to surgery.
"On the basis of these results, we conclude that ESWT could become a valuable tool in the therapeutic arsenal to successfully treat Peyronie's disease," write the authors in their study, which is published in the current issue Urology.
I am supposed to meet the Hospital Foch Staff (Doctor LEBRET) the 29th of January, the only statistic I found about the treatment is the one I posted (summary), can you tell me where you found yours please?
Regards,
atchoum
I hope the doctor visit goes well.
You can copy/paste a snippet of the text that you are interested into the google search engine. remember to put it into quotes.
By searching this phrase: "In the study, researchers at the Hôpital Foch in Suresnes, France", I found several links.
Tim
atchoum,
Regarding the following:
QuoteHello lwillisjr an thank you for your answers,
You talk about side effects and complications from the Verapamil injections, what could they be ?
Several who post here will tell you that the injections caused more problems for them. Examples would be causing more damage due to the insertion of the needle to the tunica either due to more fibrous tissue or creating additional Peyronies plaque. However.... there are also studies referenced where 70% of patients who did have injections together with Pentox and either VED or traction therapy actually helped to correct their Peyronies bend. To stay on topic look under the "Injections - Verapiml.... " thread on this forum.
Hello,
Just to let you know that after thoughts, reading results, statistics and discussions, I have decided to go for the Verapamil option (I started yesterday...:'() so from now on I will be posting on the relevant topic...
atchoum
Please let us know how it turns out.
Tim
QuoteBACKGROUND: Extracorporeal shock wave therapy (ESWT) is a conservative therapy for patients with Peyronie's disease (Peyronies Disease). OBJECTIVE: To investigate the effects of ESWT in patients with Peyronies Disease. DESIGN, SETTING, AND PARTICIPANTS: One hundred patients with a history of Peyronies Disease not >12 mo who had not had previous Peyronies Disease-related treatments were enrolled in a prospective, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study. Patients were randomly allocated to either ESWT (n=50) or placebo (n=50). Erectile function (EF), pain during erection, plaque size, penile curvature, and quality of life (QoL) were assessed at baseline, at 12 wk, and at 24 wk follow-up. INTERVENTION: Four weekly treatment sessions were administered. Each ESWT session consisted of 2000 focused shock waves. For the placebo group, a nonfunctioning transducer was employed. MEASUREMENTS: EF was evaluated with the shortened version of the International Index of Erectile Function (IIEF-5), pain was evaluated with a visual analog scale (VAS; 0-10), plaque size was measured in cm(2), and penile curvature was measured in degrees. RESULTS AND LIMITATIONS: After 12 wk, mean VAS score, mean IIEF-5 score, and mean QoL score ameliorated significantly in patients receiving ESWT. Mean plaque size and mean curvature degree were unchanged in the ESWT group, while a slight increase was reported in the placebo group (p-value not significant vs baseline). After 24 wk, mean IIEF-5 score and mean QoL score were stable in the ESWT group, while mean VAS score was significantly lower when compared with baseline in both groups. Interestingly, after 24 wk, mean plaque size and mean curvature degree were significantly higher in the placebo group when compared with both baseline and ESWT values. The main limitations were that the QoL questionnaire was not validated, ED was not etiologically characterized, and inclusion criteria were restricted. CONCLUSIONS: In patients with Peyronies Disease, ESWT leads to pain resolution and ameliorates both EF and QoL.
- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19473751?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
I have no fixed view of this treatment, but noticed this so thought I'd post it here.
Does anyone have a few on the use of radiotherapy for peyronie's? It appears to have been used to treat Dupuytren's disease, or rather to halt progression.
Here's a link relating to radiation therapy in those with Dupuytren's. Interestingly, on perhaps the largest Dupuytren's forum it appears to be pretty much the therapy of choice (aside from surgery) with the ability to often "stop the growth of Dupuytren nodules or cords either permanently or for a long time" at least according to the site and a few studies on the http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/ website.
http://www.dupuytren-online.info/radiation_therapy.html
I wonder if these results would be mirrored in those with early stage peyronie's. If so, I suppose it could eventually be considered as a front line treatment for those new to peyronie's. The word "radiotherapy" and typical uses and consequences at high enough doses perhaps mean that not enough study is performed in this area relating to peyronies. As peyronies isn't life threatening it would perhaps be considered a "trivial" use of the technology. I doubt sufferers would agree though.
What's your view of this as a potential treatment?
I have a dim view of this based only on the fact that it has been tried and seemed to go nowhere. I am pretty sure Old Man has had radiation therapy for Peyronies Disease many years ago.
It is worth noting that radiation therapy has steadily evolved both in type and in delivery. Radiation therapy in general is much more precise than even a decade ago so at least tissue outside of the target area is less affected.
Newguy:
Yes, Hawk is right. I had 45 three minute x-ray bombardments done for Peyronies Disease. They were done two times a week until the 45 sessions were completed. It was part of an experiment being done in Birmingham, Alabama.
At the time the urology association was asking certain of their better known urologists to experiment with the treatment. I was selected to participate in the program since my cousin had recommended me for the trials.
My case was followed closely by the urology group and documented very well. However, after the treatment was finished, my Peyronies Disease was just as bad as before. There were no obvious decrease in any of the symptoms. My Peyronies Disease consisted of a 45 degree curve to the right and a 45 degree or more curve downward. Sexual activity was curtailed somewhat, but I could still perform with a few little problems.
Only after I was prescribed a VED for impotency after a radical prostatectomy was I able to see any good results toward return of my penis to somewhat of a "normal" state.
So, bottom line, my radiation therapy proved to be of no actual benefit from it. I don't recommend it for anyone due to the added time and bother of having to make the visits for the treatment with no known good results. Advances in the radiation field may be better now, but I still doubt that x-ray therapy would be any better than it was back then.
Old Man
It seems to me that ultrasound and/or laser therapy would be the way to go in treating Peyronie. Oral medication can only go so far in reacting with localized scar tissue.
Recently Nanovibronix received preliminary FDA approval on their Pain Shield device. This device is an alternative to the common place high frequency/high intensity ultrasound that has been used for years in helping with muscle tissue healing and various other applications. Pain Shield uses low frequency/low intensity in a portable unit. I've contacted them for a quote and will ask my doctor about which frequency and intensity would be best suited for application in Peyronie.
Anyone know what happened to that PainFree ESWT clinic in Toronto Canada? Seemed to have posted promising results and then fell off the map...
I think these were self-proclaimed successful results and not objective, well designed trials. I have always believed this was likely more hype for business thant it was true results but I wanted to see evidence to the contrary. I never did.
Hi - I'm new to this site. I was one of the clients that was treated at the "PainFree ESWT" clinic near Toronto. The ESWT was extremely effective for me. I had 3 Peyronie's "symptoms": 1- an hourglass; 2- a sharp bend up to the left; 3- a gentle curve up resulting in an overall shortening. During the sessions at the clinic, the staff focused on the first 2 as they indicated greater success with specific site treatment. After my weekend of treatment, both of these symptoms were completely gone. Plus, my insurance reimbursed me for 80% of the procedure. Now, almost 2 years later, I am searching for another clinic to try and get treatment for the remaining symptom, to see if I can regain some of my original length. The clinic in Toronto unfortunately went out of business (I think in 2008) due to lack of clients. As a former client, they contacted me before they closed to let me know they were doing so.
Are you looking for treatment in Canada specifically, or would you be able to travel to the US if necessary? If you feel that it helped you, it's a shame that the clinic closed.
Quote from: newguy on August 30, 2009, 10:32:12 PM
Are you looking for treatment in Canada specifically, or would you be able to travel to the US if necessary? If you feel that it helped you, it's a shame that the clinic closed.
Newguy, are you saying that this treatment is being done in the US and if so where and do you know anyone that has done it?
FYI as to my previous post about Nanovibronix, the unit was a little too expensive at 600$+ so I opted for a traditional 1MHz unit and will try it out as soon as it is delivered.
No, I was trying to get an idea of the geographical boundaries in his search for treatment. ESWT is available in the UK though, so I'd imagine that there must be a few US options.
The 2nd Consultant Urologist I consulted about my Peyronies suggested ESWT and so I agreed. This was performed in a NHS hospital in the North West of England between April - June 2007. I had 3 sessions lasting about 20 mins each session, following thay there was only slight reddening or bruising on the surface skin. I experienced a cessation of aching/pain at the sight of one plaque for about a fortnight but then it seemed to resume. Other than that I discerned no other benefits as far as plaque reduction or erectile dysfunction was concerned. However my Peyronies manifests itself as a diffuse scarring around the penis resulting in narrowing and shortening of my penis and so I perhaps was not the best candidate for this treatment. There was an element of guesswork I felt on the part of the technicians administering the Lithotripsy in locating which part of the penis to focus on given that they could not make out any plaques on the ultrasound monitor. They were directed by where I indicated the aching/pain. At the outset of the 2nd session a technician even identified the coronal ridge of my glans penis as being a plaque and proceed to 'zap' me there for all of a minute before I stopped them! Incompetance indeed.
Yes, ESWT is a tricky one. It's another of of those treatments that appears to work really well acciording to some studies, but not so well according to others. Some of the studies are quite large though, so I do think that it can be useful for certain individuals. There are so many factors though, one of which you wisely point out as the competence or otherwise of those carrying out the procedure. It doesn't seem like it did much for you, so that's a shame.
Hi
I was diagnosed in Feb this year, 1cm of plaque on the top = 30 degree (painful) bend upwards. I was on Potaba for 3 months then was taken off and thing started to get worse again about 6 weeks ago. now it's 2cm & 45 degrees, painful when erect and some times when not.
Just saw my Urologist again today, had to wait 6 weeks for an appointment. He says he doesn't do ESWT but a colleague of his may. Back on Potaba & VED now.
Does anyone know of any Urologists in the UK offering ESWT on the NHS or has anyone got any recommendations for private practices in the UK? If it works for some people then I'm prepared to try it, well anything but surgery!!
Thanks in advance. Michael
Quote from: tackarama on October 26, 2009, 02:40:42 PM
Does anyone know of any Urologists in the UK offering ESWT on the NHS or has anyone got any recommendations for private practices in the UK? If it works for some people then I'm prepared to try it, well anything but surgery!!
Thanks in advance. Michael
Why are you so interested in ESWT. There are few if any success stories with this?
If you haven't done so yet you might want to read some of the other topics on the forum that have led to some positive results regarding Peyronies Disease.
Les
Quote
Why are you so interested in ESWT. There are few if any success stories with this?
If you haven't done so yet you might want to read some of the other topics on the forum that have led to some positive results regarding Peyronies Disease.
Les
It's a cultural thing. For some reason in the UK some doctors seem quite big on ESWT and that filters through to patients perpections of what works and what doesn't. You should get on pentoxifylline michael.. without a doubt (check out this new study: https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,1004.0.html . And maybe l-arginine and viagra. Aside from that keep doing what you're doing.
Last day my wife just takes a check up in the doctor and have some ultrasound in the clinic. I saw our first baby in the 3D ultrasound that is printed. It is a baby boy when It comes out. Ultrasound Repair Training
Well, ultrasound has become more popular as days go by. There are many kinds of ultrasound but the most common is the pregnancy. Anybody her who could at least discuss to me if there are negative effects of it? My wife has been tested with ultrasound for three times. She is pregnant and we are excited of what the gender of the baby is as it is our first.
Quote from: cindybasty07 on April 04, 2010, 10:32:21 PM
or to know if that is a bot or a girl
If I were to make a guess, I would say "bot".
-Skjald
Cindy:
I would not suggest you call your son a bot (if it is a BOY).
Just kidding, the t and y are very close on the keyboard, huh?
Old Man
I just found this article & wondering if anyone has seen it.
Are there any doctors in the US that will use ESWT? This thread seemed fairly negative about it but this research shows it is quite a bit more effective than VI alone. I would seriously consider using it if this data is really the true story. I do not enjoy the VI sessions as one might imagine - and to think that they are only going to work 60% of the time is frustrating. ESWT seems like it would drastically increase the odds & especialyl help the hourglass I have. However, I have not seen one reference to a US doc using it. Also, I don't think I can just go to Europe and have it done once - given that it was done 3x a week here (not sure for how many weeks though).
I know the title of this article is about biopsies, but the actual study is much more about ESWT and VIs.
(PS - I lost my PW again & something is up w/ the password retrieval function! Sorry)
Methods: A treatment group (A) of 380 patients underwent Extra Shock Waves Treatment (ESWT) three times a week for 20minutes, followed by a complete cycle of 12 injections of verapamil (10mg), every two weeks for six months. A control group (B) of 92 patients underwent verapamil injections alone. Three months after the end of the treatment, each patient underwent penile biopsy performed with Acu-Punch (Acuderm Inc.), a biopsy-punch armed with a well-sharpened rotating cylindrical blade, first used by dermatologists for cutaneous lesions.
Results: A reduction of the plaque volume was found in 260/380 patients (68.4%) of group A and in 28/92 (30.4%) of group B; painful erection weaned off in 312/340 patients of group A (91.7%) and in 36/82 patients (43.9%) of group B. In all 472 patients an excellent specimen was obtained and both the tunica albuginea and the cavernous tissue were easily identified. In the 260 cases, in which the Extra Shock Waves Treatment was successful, scanning and transmission electron microscopy demonstrated a reduction in packing and clumping of the collagen fibers.
I can't post links but just remove the spaces in the link below:
linkinghub.elsevier.com / retrieve/ pii /S0302283802002257
Source: A New Biopsy Technique to Investigate Peyronie's Disease Associated Histologic Alterations: Results with Two Different Forms of Therapy
European Urology, Volume 42, Issue 3, Page 239
I wonder whether has there been any write ups about laser therapy for Peyronies?
hoh:
None that I know of at the moment. There has been some talk around the medical field that testing is being done, but none has been published to date as I understand it.
I can not see any way that laser could get to the plaque or other symptoms. Maybe high educated medical research doctors are looking into i.
Old Man
My thanks to Old Man's articles which have been very informative and given me hope and an outlet from embarassment.
Any recommendations for VED brands and does one stop using once satisfactory results have been achieved?
Is a straightening device the same as VED?
thank you
hoh:
OK, you asked about VEDs and straightening devices. There is a world of difference between the two. A VED, vacuum erection device, operates by pulling a vacuum inside the cylinder which in turn pulls blood flow into the erectile chambers (corpora). The straightening devices (traction) perform a mechanical stretch on ones penis with attached pads or other items that are supposed to prevent damage to one penis while attaching rods, springs and other mechanical items are attached to the assembled device. It operates by a pulling pressure exerted with the springs within a controlled limit.
Both devices have their place in Peyronies Disease therapy though and each individual has to decide for himself which of the two to use or if he desires to use both. Some guys are having success with the VED therapy, while others are having success with the traction therapy. Some guys are using both and are having success with their Peyronies Disease therapy.
So, bottom line, each individual has to determine which one or both would work best for his individual case of Peyronies Disease. The weapon of choice in the VED therapy appears to be the Vitality OTC three cylinder available from the Fitzz company with a discounted price by using the special link shown in the VED board of the main forum. The Fast Size traction device appears to be the weapon of choice for traction users. However, there are other known good quality medical grade VEDs and traction devices on the market, so one should search on his own for the best device for his use.
The above carries my usual caveat that it is only my personal opinion and/or experience gained from many years of my own Peyronies Disease therapy as well as experience gained through assisting other guys with Peyronies Disease in their therapy.
Old Man
HOH-- My opinion- Any mechanical force (pulling/stretching) is destructive to penis. I would stay away from extenders/strecthers. The ved works because it brings fresh blood into penis to heal it. Just my 2 cents. Stick with George and Old Man. Lennyman
Not sure I agree LennyMan with that advice. The FastSize has been studied and found to help, and it makes sense in the same way that the VED makes sense. It cannot hurt to get blood into the penis, but it is probably the mechanical stretching that helps the penis straighten out - using any traction system.
Tim
hello all. i'm new here and just wanted to share my experience with ultrasound treatments.
it has been the one thing so far that i can clearly say has helped. i did about 8 months
worth of treatments (1 ultrasound per week). An early imaging showed that I had a fair
amount of calcification on the plaque. And my final imaging showed that the plaque
had broken up quite a bit, but now I have more random fibrosis throughout the shaft
of the penis :(
i have been doing VED treatment at home every other day, but now i have started
to integrate a traction device as well (andro-penis). i'm trying to do it gradually.
my hourglassing and curving are getting slightly worse and i want to prevent it
from furthering. surprisingly it seems like my caregivers' attitude are to just
sit back and see how things go on their own. hmmm, i bet they would think
differently if they were in my position.
Quote from: Tim468 on July 26, 2010, 01:49:23 PM
Not sure I agree LennyMan with that advice. The FastSize has been studied and found to help, and it makes sense in the same way that the VED makes sense. It cannot hurt to get blood into the penis, but it is probably the mechanical stretching that helps the penis straighten out - using any traction system.
Fastsize has done a lot more good for me than the VED.
Some of the posts in this thread are CLEARLY off topic. I think we are going to be hearing more about ultrasound therapy as it seems to be gaining in popularity and some bonafide success stories are emerging. It would really help things if some of these posts were moved to their proper threads. We DO HAVE threads for both VED and Traction. - George
Dun4Life - You mentioned you had bought a machine to do this at home. What was the brand/specs and ballpark pricerange? Are we looking at thousands or hundreds?
I'm very interested in possibly getting one of these home ultrasound machines. Expecially if my upcoming ultrasound diagnostic tests prove I have scar tissue. I can't use VED's so I need some kind of physical, external treatment to join my internal, oral regime.
What you guys think abotu this 3 mhz little beauty:
http://cgi.ebay.ca/NEW-PORTABLE-3-MHZ-ULTRASOUND-MACHINE-THERAPY-MASSAGER-/250720050259?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a60145c53
There is also 1mhz and 5mhz avaliable. I think the lower the frequency, the deeper it penetrates.
Well the requirements of the machine would really need to be found out by reading the full texts of successful studies. I'm having trouble finding studies run on ESWT that actually show positive results.
I first got interested in this when I read about a study showing great results in treating ED, but I cannot for the life of me find that study now.
Hey everyone...
Take a look at this (old but) interesting article! Any thoughts? is anyone doing ultrasound in the states, specifically New York?
British doctors discover cure for the 'Clinton kink'
By Roger Dobson
Sunday, 1 July 2001
British scientists stabilised Pisa's famous leaning tower. Now British doctors have devised a solution for a more delicate angle of deviation.
British scientists stabilised Pisa's famous leaning tower. Now British doctors have devised a solution for a more delicate angle of deviation.
Hi-tech relief is now available for the thousands of men suffering from Peyronie's disease, the bent-penis syndrome that reportedly affects Bill Clinton, the former US president. Until now, the only successful treatment has involved surgery – and a shorter penis.
Peyronie's disease is caused by a build up of collagen or fibrous tissue on one side which causes the penis to bend up to 90 degrees. Sexual intercourse is difficult, painful or even impossible.
The syndrome – named after the French doctor who first spotted it – came to public attention in 1997 when Paula Jones brought her sexual harassment case against Clinton. She claimed in her evidence that the ex-president had a distinguishing kink.
Now, doctors at three hospitals in England are reporting success with ultrasound, which breaks up the fibrous area and allows it to expand normally. In trials reported in the British Journal of Urology, the doctors reduced the bend in all but one patient. Almost half were able to resume sexual intercourse.
"The results show that this therapy produces a significant improvement in pain and penile angle with no serious complications," says Dr Rebecca Hamm of the Royal Torbay Hospital
I work as a nurse in a french hospital in the uurologic ward. I have talk with two surgeon and their answer were the same.
ESWT is sometimes useful for pain in the first phase of peyronie but that's all.
I was happy to find men who use this device, but they only reserve it for nephrology;
I read a study done 25 years ago that ultrasound did absolutely nothing for Peyronie's. Though I do not know why someone would fabricate such a thing, I believe it.If it were a cure as someone here on the forum for a short period told me ,could you keep it from the world?
Fubar
Is anyone using ultrasound at home for Peyronies Disease? And if so, how? Where di you get the machine? I heard one or tow positive things about it. Thx!
Here is a web site for Ultra Sound machines. Give it a try.
I am not using it but have had some discussion with other members.
www.lgmedicalsupply.com/sonicator715 (http://www.lgmedicalsupply.com/sonicator715)
Mike67
The text of this SPAM post has been removed. Ignore any PM's you have recieved from this person.
This dude wrote me the exact same message in my inbox... UMMmmm
I received a couple of emails from a Boston Boston 101 last night. He used my full name he must have hacked my email account.He said he had been banned from the forum and did not know not why.He asked me if I could tell him what happened. I never new this Guy or have seen him on the forum.
His first email was about some laser treatment with a link to biomedical. The second was a letter. he sent to the administration using my mame telling them that I could attest that his information and his intensions are good.Like I said I have know idea who this Guy is.So now I have hidden my email.
Laser treatment really! What a joke.
Fubar
Fubar
Quote from: nycsurfer on April 03, 2011, 10:07:34 AM
Is anyone using ultrasound at home for Peyronies Disease? And if so, how? Where di you get the machine? I heard one or tow positive things about it. Thx!
NYC, sorry for the delayed response. My care provider uses a Rich-Mar Therasound 3.5 http://www.integritybiomedical.ca/node/63
Looks like it goes for $1000-$2000. My PA said he would help me with suggestions and settings if I was to get one. I am holding off
for now as my current Peyronies Disease/penile status is still TBD from overly aggressive tension device usage.
All-in-all, ultrasound is a great option with real results. VED should be used in conjunction with ultrasounds, especially right after your
treatments to maximize your benefits. It is relatively affordable (IMO) at just $25/session, but not many places even offer it :(
I talk with my uro again about ESWT. He told me that some people had good results in braking up the scar tissue, as to broke kidney and bladder stones. I am ready to give a try, but the catch is they don't have in the hospital the equipment for that. They can brake kidney stones and bladder stones, but need a different device for penis & Peyronie's.
Have some idea? It helps? Should I invest in buying one? The device can have some other usages?
Any answer will be appreciated.
James
As far as I can remember in all the studies I read it has no real effect on curvature, but can help with pain.
on the other hand, I have never seen these devices other than hospital grade.
Yes they also exist in portable..
here is a link to a professional medical supply store .
http://www.quirumed.com/en/Catalogo/ver/2074/Sto%C3%9Fwellentherapieger%C3%A4te
they have 2 models.. (the prices are in Euro) the cheaper one is around $13.000 the other one nearly the double.
Who buys such stuff.. well doctors for their practice. as in most european countries schockwawe therapy (the one for kidney stones is, we are talking the one for tennis elbow etc...) is not paid for buy social insurance (not even private ones), drs buy these for their practice. For example in my private insurance all therapy at my doctors practice is paid for.
Luc
Thanks Luciano
I will keep the money for implant.
James
Does anyone know a doctor in NYC area that does Ionpheresis?
Thanks,
Matt
I've read through this thread and I may have missed it but I couldn't see a link to this study done in Greece that dates back to 2005 but sounds positive about shockwave therapy from what I can gather
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15735375
Hi all,
I had ESWT therapy in Spain with Dr. Natalio Cruz. I had 4 sessions in 4 weeks, and it did not help at all at the time with my ED issues. At the time I was having difficulties getting a hard erection and/or maintaining it. However, after a couple of months, I have recovered my hard erections, and I can now get hard erection on my own (have not tried with a female partner yet). So I have no idea whether the ESWT did help or not. USually you see results very quick, after 3rd or 4th treatment, but in my case I didn't notice anything.
Also, it did not help in improving my internal scarring/fibrosis in the corpora cavernosum nor my Peyronie's plaque.
I know this does not really help much, but it is what happened to me.
krazylord
In my opinion ED don't cure by himself.
If you didn't made some additional ED treatment during those two months, probably the ESWT helped
James