Peyronies Society Forums

I've frequently read on this forum that we should take supplements like L-Arginine because it increases the production of Nitric Oxide to improve circulation, however I've recently been reading that one of the byproducts of increased Nitric Oxide are nasty free radicals that lead to chronic inflammation, which is exactly what we need to avoid. Does anybody have any insight into what is going on and is there a way to get the supposed benefits without unwanted side inflammatory effects?

I'm also interested in this. I stopped taking my L-Arginine and pycnogenol supplements because I noticed I would feel inflammation where my plaques are located about a half hour after taking them.

I read this:
Implications of nitric oxide synthase isoforms in the pathophysiology of Peyronie's disease (http://www.nature.com/ijir/journal/v14/n5/full/3900872a.html)

"However, they also found that iNOS induction and NO production in human Peyronie's plaques induced the reactive oxygen species (ROS) hemeoxygenase-1 (HO-1) and nitrotyrosine, as observed by Bivalacqua et al. in the Peyronie's-like rat model, suggesting that NO is interacting with ROS to produce oxidative stress in both human Peyronie's disease and in the Peyronie's-like rat model.56,62 The interaction of NO and superoxide anion and its subsequent production of peroxynitrite has been shown to cause alterations in cavernosal smooth muscle relaxation in both humans and in rats.35,37,39 This situation presents a unique situation in that iNOS expression and subsequent high output NO production may be beneficial in suppressing collagen accumulation in Peyronie's disease but at the same time causes deleterious consequences in the corpus cavernosum, thus altering vascular tone and erectile function. Collectively, these studies unveil a possible mechanism that may be important for the protection of the tunica albuginea and corpus cavernosum from collagen changes, and also a possible mechanism by which there are alterations in the erectile physiology in Peyronie's disease patients."

There is more than one type of NO and that is critical to understand. From what I gather from this iNOS is a double edged sword of sorts in regards to Peyronie's and erectile function, and it makes sense to me considering i've felt this increased inflammation after high doses of l-arginine. I've also read that l-arginine isn't recommended for those with autoimmune diseases, and in my opinion Peyronie's is one.

So L-Arginine might actually be making things worse rather than better?...great

I hope some others comment on this subject to form more of a consensus. The last thing i need is to be shoveling down pills that are playing a part in my worsening condition.

Based on my own recent experience I have also seen less inflammation around the plaque since stopping with Citrulline Malate about a week ago. Everybody was pushing Cialis as well and then one day I realised it was causing my arteries to over dilate and agitate the nerves, which was causing more inflammation... I've really lost all faith in the standard recommended treatments and think they have probably made my condition a good deal worse over the last year or so.

The part I find most disturbing is that nobody ever seems to question these treatments and some of us will have been continuing with these supplements at great expense for years without improvement when the very same treatments might actually be hindering our recovery.

Recently I've been doing a lot of research into various cases where people have beaten various autoimmune diseases and the common factors seem to be regular exercise, plenty of sleep and a highly nutritious plant based diet. It's nothing fancy and it doesn't require a doctor charging $500+ an hour who doesn't actually know the answer...

My opinion is that L-Arginine taken in small dose may help some people. It didn't helped me.
Regarding Cialis, I am taking now 5mg daily, was taking smaller dose in the past (cutting the 20mg in four and from river, much cheaper). It have very positive effect on my erections. Sometimes I am replacing it with 25mg Viagra.
I stopped Pentox because it is weakening the immune system, in my case more and more severe flue every two months or so. 
Each one should chose a treatment that he thinks it will work for him, personally I am against to fill myself with a lot of medications/supplements. Natural food is much better.

James

I'm only taking pentox, since Dec 6th, cialis since Dec 6th, L-Arg since around the beginning of Nov...occasionally acetyl l-carnitine and a fish oil type supplement.

Something is causing me to constantly feel ill, and wrecking my gastro system, w/ heartburn & irritated esophagus. I know it is supposed to take a while for pentox to take hold in my system, but nothing I am taking seems to be doing anything to stop progression of Peyronies Disease. Plaque is getting larger, curvature increasing, looks as though the end of my dick is getting smaller when semi-erect, and i'm not sure the head is even engorged when fully erect. I know nocturnal erections are supposed to be beneficial, and cialis will help with maintaining them, but they're making it impossible to get sleep.

I'm sick and exhausted from this horrible condition and the pills I am taking that are supposed to help.  Probably belongs in the dealing with the psych issues------->but i'm about at the end of my rope.

I've been taking Arginine for several months now because I saw it was recommended on this forum and I've been using Nitric Oxide as a training supplement in the weight room for years. I can't see where either one has had any positive or negative effect on my peyronies.

I've also been on Pentox for a couple months now too and I'm thinking about stopping it. It was allot of work to get the prescription but I just don't see or feel any benefit up to this point.

If peyronies is scar tissue in it's simplest form than I don't see how can any chemical substance help dissolve it? If it were that simple imagine how frequently these drugs and/or supplements would be used for athletes and burn victims? It just doesn't add up in my mind.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be negative, only honest.

Knight, I think bailing on Pentox after two months would be an incredible shame. Conventional wisdom is that it takes months for Pentox to do any real good. Given the trouble you went to to get the prescription and the inexpensiveness of the drug itself, it would be a shame to throw in the towel after only 8 weeks.  The other side of that coin is how will your Peyronies Disease progress (and I hope this isn't the case) if you AREN'T taking the Pentox.  Why find out?  It may be doing some good you are unaware of.  It's no magic bullet that just "fixes" Peyronie's and no one has ever claimed it was, but the anti-fibrotic effect is about the best tool we have in our chemical arsenal at this point, short of injections.  It's your call, of course, but think twice before you throw away 8 weeks of building the drug into your system. 

Best,
Nemo

Knight,

You've gone this far, why not go further on the chance that it might be helping slow or stop progression. It might not do a thing to dissolve scar tissue, but being that it is a blood thinner and makes blood cells more flexible so blood can get past scar tissue obstruction it is worth it to give it a shot. Blood flow is crucial, especially if it helps us hold on until a better alternative is decided upon or arrives.

Knight

I will second csus & Nemo.
I was on Pentox for long time and it may be the main reason my Peyronies stopped progressing.
Pentox treatment is not a sprint, is a marathon.

James

With all due respect after 8 years of dealing with this I do completely understand that there is no quick fix. I would drink battery acid if it would correct my peyronies. And I will most likely continue the Pentox for now simply because I do have the prescription. But I'm not grasping the science behind it all and I cannot see how a blood thinner or more red blood cells can really offer that much of a benefit to what appears to be the aftermath and wreckage of a broken penis. The penis is all about blood flow, I can't imagine how any of us are not getting enough blood to our penis. And as I stated previously if this drug has any miraculous effect on "scar tissue" why is it virtually unheard of in others areas of medicine (such as burn victims)? I don't mean to be negative but I would like to understand.

In the meantime I took my Pentox this morning and I will take it again tonight. I just have my doubts that this is the answer and I don't want to end up with more issues because of the side effects of a drug.

I completely understand how you feel, Knight. For what it is worth, i'm with you, man. In addition to peyronies wreaking havoc on my dick, something is wrecking my gastro and I feel ill about 80% of the time. Although, I shoveled down the pentox (and other pills) this morn, and will continue. Doing something has got to be better than doing nothing, I pray.

I also don't mean to be negative or poisoning the atmosphere, but I often still find myself hoping I also have cancer or some such fatal illness. At least then I might go out with some sense of dignity rather than live with this shameful condition. My dick? Are you f-ing kidding me, my dick?!

I still haven't figured what to tell the people around me, in addition to feeling constantly distracted and down over this mess, "I don't feel good today" physically is wearing thin. The "have you seen/you should see a doctor" question/statement is problematic. I don't want to lie, but I don't want to/can't tell the truth. People won't understand, and there is stigma.

Apparently I am stronger than I realize(d), I reckon i'll just keep taking the pentox and taking life one day at a time.

Knight, read Dr. Leu's paper on Pentox - it's on here somewhere.  It goes into the science behind using Pentox—it has something to do with inhibiting TGF-beta, some type of scar or tumor growth factor.  I'm no scientist, but it's about more than just blood flow.

csus, hang in there.  I feel your pain.  But you treat, you hope, you hang on for an improvement (and they do happen!), and you hold out surgery or implant as an end-game option. We've all contemplated these same options at some point, believe me.

Nemo

Have a few researches regarding Pentox on the forum.
Also my urologist told me that today, Pentox is the fist line oral medication to fight Peyronies. Usually with a low dose Cialis.
Pentox is a "kind" of blood thinner, it make the red blood cells more flexible and they can enter the thine blood vessels. The red blood cells are carrying the oxygen to all our body parts.
I had many benefits from Pentox, not just for Peyronies.
I am not happy that I can't take it right now.

James 

I was on Pentox taking 6-8 tablets a day for over a year and during that whole time my condition only ever got worse. For the entire period I felt various side effects for no perceivable benefit and eventually I just felt it was ridiculous continuing with a treatment that evidently wasn't helping but might well be making matters worse, however that's my gripe with all these suggested treatments because every one of them seems to have negative side effects and some have real long term implications.

The problem with increased nitric oxide is that it leads to a jump in free radicals that drive inflammation and that seems to be a known consequence. These are the nasty critters that can cause problems like heart disease and cancer yet we have doctors telling us to take L-Arginine etc without explaining any of this. Have they even bothered to check themselves?

I find it incredible that whenever I've visited a doctor or urologist not one of them has even bothered to explain that this is an autoimmune disease and what could be the causes or the ways of reversing it. Not one of them has touched on the subject of diet, sleep, exercise or any other lifestyle related issues like stress. They just want us to pop some pills and then come back six months later so we can discuss whether to keep going with the tablets or book in a $$$ surgery. We deserve better than this!!

A few months ago I started eating fresh ginger and found out soon after that this was not recommended if you are taking Pentox because apparently they both act as blood thinners and the combined effect could be too much. If you look into ginger you'll find it does all sorts of wonderful things, so I thought why bother with Pentox if I can achieve the same result with a natural herb that is a natural anti-inflammatory. Within two months on the ginger alone I had dropped from around 75 degrees to 30 degrees and lots of small scars just seemed to evaporate.

I am still left with the persistent scar right at the base but I am now tackling this more forcefully by radically increasing the amount of micro nutrients in my diet and the easiest way to do that is by juicing fresh raw vegetables. This is something I only started two weeks ago but I've spent countless hours in research and it just seems to be the only thing that makes sense.

I've heard others referring to this as a means of rebooting their autoimmune system and allowing the body to heal itself. Throw in some solid exercise, consistent sleep with perhaps a little yoga meditation to reduce stress levels and I think 2014 could be a much better year.

I've watched lots of videos online such as "fat, sick and nearly dead" and "food matters" that are both worth watching. Here is a short one where a guy talks about how he beat Crohn's disease with a similar approach Watch "TEDxEast - Ari Meisel Beats Crohn's Disease" Video at TEDxTalks (http://tedxtalks.ted.com/video/TEDxEast-Ari-Meisel-Beats-Crohn)

ashtown - I hear you loud and clear on nutrition and natural anti inflammatory herbs and supplements. I couldn't agree more with you on the wonders of natural foods and proper natural nutrition. And I pray you are on to something successful and I hope you keep enlightening us all on your discovery. I'm putting more natural ginger in my diet immediately.  :D But I have to tell you nutrition has been my lifestyle for many years now as an amateur body builder. If you can find anyone who has been more fussy, conscientious and scientific about the way they eat over most of the last decade my hat is off to them. I have weighed and measured everything I eat, keeping it almost completely natural, low fat and high protein for most of the last 10 years. I eat tons of fresh fruit and vegatables and make sure I drink almost a gallon of water almost every day. That's part of my frustration, I have worked my tail off and monitored every bite of food I eat for years I ended up with peyronies? I'm afraid we are dealing with one nasty condition that has no respect for our lifestyle or habits good or bad! I think what I have is more an injury than a disease. All I can do is laugh and keep pushing on. But don't let me deceive you one bit, I feel very sorry for myself! >:(

But I will continue to do what those before me here recommend because some of you have had success and I respect that. I'm very happy for you and I want what you found, however you managed to find it. I am very grateful for each and every one of you. I want to help and be helped. We are not alone. We are from all over the world, from every culture. We are human, and we are man. History has shown that men, banded together for a common cause can achieve great things. I feel like I'm in the company of some very strong people here, you have to be strong to live with what we live with.

Here's to 2014 and miracles for all of us and all who may come after us! \m/><\m/  8)

@knight

I have done much research on the subject of diet as I am a health nut. Until this disease I thought I was eating on the healthy side until I got this condition and really started to research everything. I use to eat high protein low fat as it was always deemed healthy. After having done tons of research and continuing research as well as trial and error I think this mode of thinking is wrong. I saw the documentaries mentioned below and did the juicing and even went vegan for 8 months. I felt great at first because I cut out all the processed foods. But then the vegan life style started to hurt me I started feeling run down and really weak. I did more research and added grass fed organic meats to my diet, lowered my carbs and I haven't felt better in my life. My sore joints from lifting and martial arts are 10x better. I started eating all natural foods, but having meat as my main staple with vegetables as a side and fruit as a treat. I really think that having to much carbs and spiking insulin levels throws our bodies out of whack. I even cut out the juicing because I have found multiple studies that suggest any type of juicing even from fresh organic veggies and fruits gets absorb way to fast and spike insulin when in juice form and that messes with the bodies hormones. I know when I did these I would feel tired or sleepy a little after. Since lowering my carbs and eating whole foods my energy has sky rocketed. My plaques no longer hurt at all, although they are still there. I just feel over all better. I also don't count calories as I believe counting calories sends people down the wrong path on nutrition and they start looking at numbers instead of quality of the foods. I make it a point to eat high fat foods from quality grass fed organic meats the fats replace the carbs for energy as some report its the preferred energy source for our bodies. I have also read many articles that suggest quality fat is actually really good for us and we need it and that all this low fat craze is doing is hurting us. I can tell you that I don't watch protein intake and since I have been doing this I have gotten stronger in the gym joints feel better recover from injuries faster and feel 10x more energy through out the day. My skin is also clearer, its funny as I write this I didn't eat this way for thanksgiving and Christmas as I was with family and ate a typical meal. I felt tired and sleepy not the same energy for a couple days after I also had minor break outs which I hardly ever get eating this way. I really think food is the answer and just get frustrated when I see friends and family always looking for pills for problems. I think our society has to change this mind set everyone wants a quick fix and to through supplements and or medicines at problems, and in some rare cases these may be needed. But I really think we don't give our bodies enough credit, if we give them the right building blocks it should be able to maintain fix and repair itself. I mean think about it medicine is relatively new we survived without it for a long time now it seems like everyone is taking some for because they think they need to when they don't. Now some will say early man with out medicine didn't survive long and yes this is true but they also had a harsher environment and had many more dangers than we face today. I took pretty much all the supplements suggested here in the beginning and I don't think it helped, I would often not feel well while on them I never got sick but just didn't feel well a couple times a week, so I stopped and focused on diet and I am glade I did. I really think that's where everything begins with.

hi ashtown

i use fresh ginger in curries....i'm guessing you're eating it raw? if so how are you serving it (grated) and how much?

sorry for all the questions.

cheers.....john

The way I'm looking at this we need to concentrate on good gut health with a wide range of useful bacteria and nutrients that actually help us. Something I noticed early on at this forum is that the vast majority of men with Peyronies all seem to come from the countries with the worst diets that rely on too many processed foods offering almost zero nutritional value.

At the moment I'm doing the juicing, so every day I'll drink about a litre of juice extracted from nutrient rich fruits & vegetables like kale, broccoli, carrots, cabbage, lemons, apples, celery, courgettes, cucumber, onion, leeks, ginger etc etc. All of this is in addition to other food, so at breakfast I'll probably have something like porridge then at lunch I might have sweet potatoes with homemade sauerkraut and dinner could be quinoa with a range of lightly steamed vegetables. I also drink green tea and lots of filtered water.   

There are a few things I do though that may surprise you. For example I'm now eating grass fed butter having learned how high quality saturated fats are our friend and I won't even touch low fat spreads. Grass fed butter like Kerrygold contains all sorts of good stuff including the all important vitamin K2 that really needs to be delivered in a fat soluble form. http://www.deliciousobsessions.com/2012/03/butter-is-better-the-health-benefits-of-grass-fed-butter/ (http://www.deliciousobsessions.com/2012/03/butter-is-better-the-health-benefits-of-grass-fed-butter/)

In terms of supplements I am taking burdock, which again can be found naturally and serves the dual purpose of cleansing the liver while driving blood towards the skin. I also take vitamin D3 because I live in foggy old England and the sun just can't be relied on. I'm also taking L-Glutamine in powder form, which is useful for repairing the gut, especially in cases of leaky gut syndrome. Apart from D3 I may stop the others when I run out now my diet is so much better. 

The reasons why we have Peyronies will be many and varied but I'm convinced the injury that most seem to experience is nothing more than a trigger and equally that if it wasn't Peyronies it might have been some other autoimmune related disease. Inflammation is the body's way of dealing with infection and injuries but it should work like a laser and deal with the job before going away. In the case of Peyronies it never stops attacking and we have to reboot our immune system so that it works normally. It could well be that we have some small infection in our body, like a minor tooth infection that is keeping the immune system on high alert but even so it should then be working on that area alone.

I know for a fact that I was never breast fed, so I didn't get all the natural benefits from mother's milk as a baby and then throughout my life I would have had antibiotics on various occasions that would have done serious damage to the gut flora. If you throw in more than 40 years of foods from hormone packed meats or mercury laden tinned tuna right through to nutrition free breads and a good amount of processed sugars it's no surprise we have problems. We've only been eating something that vaguely looks like food but the body sure doesn't know what to do with it.

To answer the question about how I take ginger I've been peeling big chunks of fresh root, which is best done with a spoon and then cutting up about 3 inches into small pieces that are added to ginger tea without boiling the water and obviously with no sugar. It's not always pleasant but I eat the ginger and I'll do this 2-3 times a day. This really gets a hold on the inflammation but I've found that since juicing other vegetables I can slightly cut down on the ginger and of course I'm gaining a much wider range of useful enzymes and anti-inflammatory nutrients now. I started to see a difference in feel after less than a week and then there was a big drop in curvature around a month later.

I cannot make clear enough how important it is to get a handle on stress and eliminate anything that causes anxiety because it will beat you every time and drives inflammation. I am sure many men with this condition become their own worst enemy, stressing about the deformity, while others are just battling with an idiot boss or something that is wrecking their health. My good progress came to an abrupt halt a month or so ago when my teenage daughter suddenly became a massive pain that was keeping my wife and I both awake at night. It was a teenage thing but for a couple of weeks my condition actually got worse and only subsided recently when we got her under control but I think my other steps are also helping.

For several months now I haven't contributed much to this forum because I have felt the conversations seemed to be endlessly repeating the same tired topics through nasty oral medication or torture rack stretching without ever addressing the autoimmune element. The doctors are frankly a disgrace and none of them are connecting the dots so we have to educate ourselves and look beyond Peyronies to take a whole body approach. The body is capable of amazing healing and we just need to give it a chance.

I just did some reading about Chinese Salvia.  This product is suppose to raise Nitric Oxide much better than L-Arginine.  It is suppose to open up those very small capillaries for better circulation.  I just placed an order for some of this to see how it works.  I want to try it because I use different natural products for high blood pressure.  Just FYI is someone wants to try this product.

We had some debate on the forum regarding Nitric Oxide:
Nitric Oxide - good or bad? - Peyronies Society Forums (https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,4425.0.html)

James

Regarding L-Arginine and nitric oxide, the study referenced below lists Dr. WJG Hellstrom as one of the authors.  The study was published in 2002.

I found a very recent interview with Dr. Hellstrom in which he states the following:  "I will frequently offer several treatment options including oral therapy with pentoxifylline and L-arginine or intralesional injections with interferon alpha 2b. Patients undergoing intralesional injections will also be recommended to undergo concurrent penile traction therapy."

I'm no expert, but I'm guessing that in the 10+ years since that study was published, where Hellstrom is one of the authors, the conclusion on L-Arginine is that it is ok wrt peyronies.

Anon

I was just reading a page on the cooling inflammation (http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/health-diagrams-iii-inflammation-from.html) blog that made me take note when it mentioned nitric oxide, especially with reference to Viagra and I imagine the same applies to Cialis, which I am glad to no longer be taking. 

"Nitric Oxide, Vasodilation and Viagra
Swelling is caused by vasodilation, the relaxation of blood vessels, and accumulation of serum in the tissue.  This vasodilation also makes the tissue red and warm from the increased amount of warm blood in the capillaries.  Vasodilation is caused by nitric oxide, NO, that is produced by an enzyme under the control of NF-kB, which takes the nitrogen from arginine (or nitroglycerine).  The NO diffuses easily and binds to receptors that produce an amplified signal, cyclic GMP, that relaxes the muscle cells surrounding blood vessels.  [Viagra is potentially dangerous, because it just exaggerates the amplified signal and obscures the underlying vascular damage, e.g. hypertension, that causes erectile dysfunction by blocking normal vasodilation.]"

ashtown

I am somehow confused.
On all the medications like Viagra, Cialis, Levitra and L-Arginine is written that they are lowering blood pressure as a dangerous side effect.
Now you are stating from this blog that Viagra makes Hypertension.
One of them wrong, the manufacturers or the blog you are reading.

James

I've looked at it again James and it's not entirely clear from the way it is written but I think he is basically saying that Viagra masks conditions of underlying vascular damage that cause erectile dysfunction. In other words it treats the symptoms, however it appears to do this in a way that can cause more damage over the long term.

ashtown

I hope the blog statements are based on a research and not just what he thinks, otherwise he may mislead people.
Please PM me the link, I would like to read more in the subject.

James

You can read his entire blog at http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.co.uk (http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.co.uk) and that is from his latest post. Look at his "About Me" info on the right hand side and you'll see he has a PHD in Molecular, Cellular and Developmental Biology. He was also an assistant professor in the Cell and Developmental Biology Department at Harvard University among other things. The entire blog is devoted to the study of inflammation and autoimmune diseases, so I have found it incredibly useful in fighting Peyronies. A battle that I am starting to win. 

ashtown

Thanks for the link

Quote....fighting Peyronies. A battle that I am starting to win.

Like the sentence :)

James

I have gone from about 80 degrees curvature to perhaps less than 20 degrees in the last 6 months and my progress is accelerating but rather than becoming complacent I shall redouble my efforts.

I only started to make progress when I dropped all the conventional treatments like Pentox & Cialis and started to look at whole body health in terms of diet, exercise and sleep. My belief is that practically all autoimmune diseases have similar causes and it's only the symptoms which alter but they can be treated quite successfully in many cases through simple changes in lifestyle.

ashtown

What you are writing is amazing!!!
I am proposing you to open a topic on:
Alternative Treatments of Peyronie's Disease - PDS - Peyronies Society Forums (https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/board,21.0.html)
with details of the improvements, what you have done before and more details on what you are doing now.
It may help members that don't want to use medication, traction, VED, etc'

James

I really have to get on with my work right now but I shall try to post something later that others can study. In essence I have found that my body has started to heal by ignoring the standard advice on Peyronies and staying away from the doctors. In that sense the "do nothing" approach may not be as crazy as it sounds but it's only half the story.

In brief terms I dropped all medicines and switched to a completely vegetarian diet at Christmas plus I started juicing vegetables & fruits every day to really pack in the micro nutrients. Real fermented raw vegetables also work wonders to heal your gut that largely regulates your immunity response. Forget the pasteurised shop junk and make it yourself.

Get some good sleep, exercise every day and try to keep stress levels low. Avoid all processed foods with additives etc and leave your penis well alone because squeezing to check for inflammation only makes it worse. At all costs avoid further physical damage.

Most of us have spent our entire lives eating highly processed foods that are almost entirely robbed of nutrition and it hasn't escaped my notice that the majority of men on these forums seem to come from the countries with the worst diets. It will probably take a couple of months before the body starts to react positively but I have no doubt that this is now rapidly reversing a really bad case of Peyronies. BTW I think my approach here would be equally effective with many other autoimmune diseases and I've seen other improvements in my health so it's not limited to Peyronies.

Quote from: ashtown on March 21, 2014, 06:41:51 AM
Get some good sleep, exercise every day and try to keep stress levels low. Avoid all processed foods with additives etc and leave your penis well alone because squeezing to check for inflammation only makes it worse. At all costs avoid further physical damage.

I agree. My Peyronies started in December which was during a period of very high stress for me. (My mom was diagnosed with Alzheimer's). Also last year I drank too much, had a poor diet, and stopped exercising. At the end of the year I was 70 pounds overweight with a mild case of Peyronies (a small indentation without any pain).

So I stopped drinking and went on a medically supervised diet for rapid weight loss. I also started exercising and that has helped me reduce my stress level.

Peyronie's has made me extremely motivated to get back to a healthier lifestyle!

Take a look at my post on Progress following a change in approach - Peyronies Society Forums (https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,4799.0.html) if you want to read more about this but like so many others I first got Peyronies following a period of high stress when I hadn't been sleeping more than a few hours every night for many months. At the time I thought my diet was reasonable and I certainly wasn't eating obvious junk food but equally I wasn't eating much that could be described as positively healthy either from what I now know.

Losing the weight should really help brettcase and since it sounds like you have a very mild case of Peyronies I think you can get this completely beaten in no time if you take the right approach. Avoiding further physical damage is essential and one of my major gripes is doctors who seem to think that wrestling with your penis for several minutes like an MMA fighter is somehow going to help. They know you have Peyronies so what they are expecting to learn from this that will actually help your condition is a mystery.

"A study published in the November 2003 issue of Life Sciences suggests that at least one reason for ginger's beneficial effects is the free radical protection afforded by one of its active phenolic constituents, 6-gingerol. In this in vitro (test tube) study, 6-gingerol was shown to significantly inhibit the production of nitric oxide, a highly reactive nitrogen molecule that quickly forms a very damaging free radical called peroxynitrite."

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=72

I have no doubt at all that ginger is a powerful tool to battle Peyronies. Best of all it's cheap to buy with no real side effects and you don't need a prescription. No wonder the medical profession has ignored it. This link has a good explanation of why ginger works on inflammation where drugs fail HowStuffWorks "Ginger: A Profile of an Alternative Medicine" (http://health.howstuffworks.com/wellness/natural-medicine/alternative/medical-uses-for-ginger-ga.htm)

Well it's definitely a win win for me.

When I would take citrulline or low dose of cialis this last year and a half, my penis girth/integrity would worsen every time. And now I'm measuring girth 4.25" at top, and 4.5-4.75 middle. My original girth was 5.0" before peyronie's. Also my penis does time to time bend to the right at a 75 degree angle in it's semi state after having been erect for a very long time.

With ginger, even though that study says it inhibits nitric oxide, my erections are still very hard, viagra hard, and definitely harder than without supplements. My erections never seem to be as hard as I once got them originally with viagra and citrulline a few years back, but I don't think my penis can get that hard anymore because of the physical damage it has taken. Even with citrulline and viagra, I haven't been able to replicate a high pointing penis, hard as a rock. Now I get a more straight pointing penis, hard as a rock.

Anyway why I'm saying is it's a win win is because, even though the ginger is meant to be lowering nitric oxide, my penis still seems to getting viagra/citrulline effects, and better erections than if I take no supplements.

So seeing that study, my penis is being protected from the free radical peroxynitrite, and is still getting harder than usual because of ginger. Or in other words, I don't need to increase my nitric oxide to increase my erection.

However one thing I will note, is I've taken a lot of ginger powder today, and I mean a lot. Maybe 5-7 heaped teaspoons with milk and stevia. Mmmm taste delicious, and so cheap from the supermarket. However it's make me sedated, and slower thinking. So if you experiment with high doses, just do it before bed, because you'll feel out of it and hard to function, your reactions will be slower.

Also. Libido is becoming so much more harder to control. Which I see as a good and bad thing. Good as in it helps libido/arousal. Bad as in, I feel cutting down on masturbation, i.e. giving your penis a rest, will benefit it more recovering from peyronie's, than whacking it everyday.

Luckily I haven't whacked it today, but the lust/libido made me surf for porn most of the day.

Question regarding ginger:
How you are taking it? Eating or making a tea?
I would like to start on it, have plenty and cheap here where I am living.

James

I was taking massive amounts of arginine, citrulline, in various forms for bodybuilding when Peyronies started getting bad.

People do not understand, your body QUICKLY down regulates nitric oxide.

If you have been taking arginine daily for a little while, it stops having an effect.

muffslayer that's fantastic feedback on ginger and confirms what I have been finding as well. The whole time I was on Cialis and Citrulline Malate or L-Arginine as recommended by the doctors my condition only ever got worse. When I stopped them and started with the ginger it started to improve, following a very similar pattern to your own.

I take ginger in fresh raw form by adding it to ginger tea without any addition such as stelvia and I wonder if that is making you tired. I can't see how stelvia or any other kind of sweetener is helping your condition. Anyway just to confirm for others; when I stopped taking Citrulline Malate & Cialis and used ginger instead my erections were in no way diminished but the constant worsening stopped and I started to heal in remarkably little time. I saw the first positive signs in about a week. 

Ginger may well be a factor in increased libido which is good and bad as muffslayer points out. Good because it's nice to know it still works with relative ease and bad because it's more tempting to start masturbating and as I've found physical contact definitely makes it worse.

@Ashtown

No it was definitely the ginger that made me sleepy. I took 5-7 HEAPED teaspoons of ginger powder throughout the day. And ginger has been noted in medical literature to cause sedation. Taking as much as I did yesterday is a big no no, as going to the toilet was a pain, I got stomach cramps, but remember this was with taking ridiculous amounts.

Ashtown a question for you. When you take the ginger, do you actually ingest it in it's food form? Like in a powder, or in it's natural root form?

Or.

Do you just ingest it as a tea? I.e. You boil it, let the ingredients leech into the water, then filter out the physical bits?

@james1947

Well originally I've been taking it as "ginger root" capsules I bought off ebay, which also have tumeric in them, and cinnamon. Even yesterday I took the capsules, but started to experiment with Tesco Everyday Value Ginger Powder and Tesco Ginger Powder with milk and stevia. So I have no way of telling which ones were effective. Was it the capsules? The cheapest brand? Or the more premium brand? And what about the other ingredients in the capsules, tumeric, cinnamon?

So my goal today is simply this. I'll take 1 teaspoon of Tesco Everyday Value ginger with milk and stevia tonight. Nothing else. If this works for my erection, then I'll stop spending money on expensive "ginger root" capsules (even though their pretty cheap in general for supplements), because I can get cheaper stuff from the supermarket. Tesco Everyday Value Ginger Powder 80g, literally cost me 85p, that's 1.06p a gram! Or 1.06p is equivalent to 2 x 500mg "ginger root" capsules. So 100 ginger root capsules should cost me 53p. But in reality they cost like £6-£10 to buy.

@Question for everybody

Also I keep quoting "ginger root". Reason being, all these supplements says "ginger root". So is "ginger root" something different to regular "ginger powder", or is it just a clever marketing ploy? Because you hear having the root of certain plants is better/more powerful for you. But from what I can see, ginger is a root. So to me "ginger powder" and "ginger root" are the same thing. But it worries me, because I really wonder is good ol' regular "ginger powder" from the supermarket, are as effective as the "ginger root" they put in the capsules I buy? Or are they the same thing, but a marketing ploy to convince people they need to buy a supplement. Because come on, if they just called it "ginger powder" capsules, people would laugh, and go, I can get that in the supermarket for 20 times cheaper.

So my question is, anyone have any idea on this?

@My new regime idea after today's experiment.

All taken before bed:

1 teaspoon of ginger
1 teaspoon of tumeric
1/4-1/2 of black pepper
Milk and 1-1/2 teaspoon of stevia

Apparantly tumeric and ginger have very similar properties. I think they're related botanically or in the same family or something. Curcumin in tumeric is the thing that helps. And absorption is very low in the body, but if you add piperine, which is in black pepper, the bioavailability goes up 1000%. And black pepper, as you know, is the normal salt and pepper you get.

OK in terms of ginger dosage I buy fresh ginger roots from the vegetable section of the supermarket and locally Asda seems to have the best quality ginger. It costs me about £2 per kilo that lasts me roughly a week, so if you work that out it's a 0.1p per gram and I just worked on the theory that fresh would be better than powdered plus I can get new supplies within 10 minutes.

If you take fresh ginger root and put it in hot water the taste is pretty lackluster so instead I first peel the skin off a chunk of root about 3 inches long using a spoon, which strangely does a much better job than a knife. I then chop up the fresh ginger root into edible sized chunks and put them in the cup that already has some ginger tea inside. I use the tea bags from Twinnings that you can find at almost any supermarket. Using hot but not boiling water let it brew for a few minutes and then consume slowly. Repeat 2-3 times a day for best results.

I've never taken ginger powder but it seems likely that it comes from ginger root, which is the part we normally eat and noted for it's health qualities. Prior to taking ginger I actually took turmeric for several months and it was great for effective fast pain relief but did nothing really to reduce scarring. I was taking it at the same time as Cialis etc though, which probably wasn't helping. When I first tried turmeric and ginger together it didn't seem like a good mix and I found better results using ginger alone.

Although turmeric and ginger both attack inflammation they do it in different ways. My understanding may be incorrect but I've read that turmeric does it through heat, while ginger has a cooling effect. All I know is that taking them together seemed to be sending mixed signals to my body during the brief period I tried it. On balance I'd choose ginger every time but a little experimentation wouldn't hurt and organic turmeric is very cheap.

When I first started using ginger I had lots of small plaques and thin cord like structures on my penis caused by a the urologist pressing too hard at the last appointment. In less than two weeks they were all gone and they've never returned.

Something I should add is that while taking ginger and using the rest of my plant food diet I have seen considerable gains in length and reduction in hourglass narrowing. This is happening quite naturally as the scarring and inflammation reduces without any need to use a VED or traction for stretching that are only likely to cause further damage in my opinion.

ashtown & muffslayer

Thanks for the answers.
I will go on the fresh roots ans they are available for me.

James

Great info here.

Maybe taking the ginger and tumeric in turns(morning/evening or every other day) would make sense.

Like similar with warm/cold treatments(muscles etc.).

I will get some too now.

I have no idea but in a way the more feedback we get on this the better. All I can tell you is that turmeric alone did nothing to reduce my scarring but it was effective with pain relief. In my case I found ginger alone was more effective at reducing inflammation and deformity than ginger mixed with turmeric. Different quantities may have delivered another result.

The Ginger must work on some people and not others.  I have been taking Ginger 3 times a day for a few years, even before I knew I had the Peyronies problem, and the ginger has made no change.  I also have been taking turmeric and this has done nothing.  I take the Ginger along with Cayenne Pepper.  Cayenne is great for everything.

Maybe I have been using the wrong Ginger, I don't know..........

Just FYI...dplookin

Lets remember that there will always be other factors involved. I always have to remind myself that even if I'm getting five things right just one thing wrong is enough to stop me making progress or more usually make it worse. I think you would need to be certain something else wasn't obstructing any positive effects of ginger, whether it be physical damage, diet or stress etc. In many ways less is more when dealing with this kind of thing because mixing it up too much means you never really know what is working or not helping.

I tried cayenne pepper briefly and it certainly gives you a blood circulation rush but that was actually where I learned we should be cooling inflammation and I don't belive cayenne provides a cooling effect. I'm not disputing the health benefits of cayenne but rather like turmeric I'm not certain it's ideal for Peyronies.

I was just making one of my daily preparations of vegetable juice and we are due to go shopping later today so all I found was a single red cabbage and a cucumber that I used to produce about 4 glasses of juice. Afterwards I decided to look up cucumber in relation to inflammation and found this web page http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=42

There is a curious note down there in relation to Nitric Oxide that says:

"In animal studies, fresh extracts from cucumber have been shown to provide specific antioxidant benefits, including increased scavenging of free radicals and increased overall antioxidant capacity. Fresh cucumber extracts have also been shown to reduce unwanted inflammation in animal studies. Cucumber accomplishes this task by inhibiting activity of pro-inflammatory enzymes like cyclo-oxygenase 2 (COX-2), and by preventing overproduction of nitric oxide in situations where it could increase the likelihood of excessive inflammation."

I'm not singling out cucumber here as a wonder food that beats everything else because I believe there are a whole host of benefits from all sorts of fruits and vegetables but this comment about the way cucumber helps to regulate excessive Nitric Oxide and calm chronic inflammation sounds similar to what I've read about ginger. I'm finding it increasingly difficult to see a good case for taking L-Argenine or other supplements that boost Nitric Oxide and believe this requires more consideration.

ashtown:

I have tried several times to send you a PM, but a message pops up and says that my PMs to you have been blocked by the receiver. Is there any reason why you do not want to receive PMs from me?

Old Man

Old Man

The reason may be that ashtown inbox is full

James

My inbox isn't full, I just have no wish to receive continued private messages from Old Man about using the VED after it caused me so much damage. Let's just leave it at that because I don't want this to distract from the topic of this thread.

ashtown:

For heavens sake, man! I have never badgered you in any manner about using the VED. Apparently you have a grudge against me for telling you about the VED therapy to begin with. I gave you all the information that one needed to know about VED therapy. I also told you that VED therapy would not work for everybody.

Once you realized that you were not one of those who could use a VED , you should have stopped using it as you were advised by me in PMs to you.

In addition, I apologized to you in a PM relating the fact that I was very sorry that the therapy did not work out for you.

So, if you do not desire any further PMs from me, SO BE IT. I JUST HOPE THAT YOU DO SOMEDAY FIND A WAY TO OVERCOME ONE OF THE MOST DEVASTATING MALADIES THAN ANY MAN COULD EVER ENCOUNTER!!!

By the way, I have never said anything detrimental about you using your vegie diet which shows promise for healing your Peyronies Disease. Whatever works for you is what you should do. Every case of Peyronies Disease has its own characteristics.

I  will put you on my DO NOT WRITE TO LIST so you will never ever again get any information of any kind from me.
We in the States have an expression that goes like this: PUT THAT IN YOUR PIPE AND SMOKE IT!!

Old Man

ashtown

It was more simple, polite, and not offending sending a PM to Old Man.
As I know British people, they are very polite, avoiding insulting others.
So I am really surprised by your post.
I will delete any additional post not connected to Nitric Oxide on this topic

James

I used to take l-arginine, but it was rough on my stomach. I now take 750 l-citrulline with 150 mg pine bark extract a couple of times a week. Citrulline breaks down into mostly arginine where as arginine gets broken down into other things leaving only about 50% as arginine. I never had a bad experience with this stuff and it did help with the ED. Just my 2 cents

Ditto what incautious says.

Citrulline tastes better than arginine, too! Citrulline powder in water with a little sweetner is sort of like lemonade. Most everybody has tasted citrulline before--its the amino acid that makes watermelon rind so tart. (Citrullus is the watermelon family).

Here's a link to an abstract about Citrulline for treating ED http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21195829 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21195829).

For those who don't want to read the whole abstract, the idea was to see if Citrulline is superior to Arginine:

"L-arginine supplementation improves nitric oxide-mediated vasodilation and endothelial function; however, oral administration has been hampered by extensive presystemic metabolism. In contrast, L-citrulline escapes presystemic metabolism and is converted to L-arginine, thus setting the rationale for oral L-citrulline supplementation as a donor for the L-arginine/nitric oxide pathway of penile erection."

Their conclusion: It works.

I didn't read through every post but most..Just want to offer my two cents. Nitric Oxid or NO is bad mostly. It's in our bodies but can easily be overproduced through inflammatory processes.  Over production of NO seems to play a role in tumor growth(and not in a good way). NO is a necessary evil in that it basically is essential to every organ in our body and helps rid our bodies of harmful bacteria and viruses...problem is that it can go too far and over produce etc..

Just wanted to reply as I saw the post was titled Nitric Oxid, good or bad?

Interestingly, the comination of PDE5 inhibitors + egcg decrease cancer whereas each on their own did not significantly cause apoptosis of cancer cells.

JCI - Cancer therapy combination: green tea and a phosphodiesterase 5 inhibitor? (http://www.jci.org/articles/view/67589)

What is the consensus on this? I'm not sure if I should continue with arginine supplementation.

Hello,

I am a living example of the fact that nitric oxide is dangerous.
For over a year (daily) I took 2500-3000 mg of L-Arginine.
I am convinced that my Peyronies Disease and ED are caused by nitric oxide, and in fact the inflammation that was caused by it. As soon as I stopped L-arignina my condition deteriorated - I am tired, I have little capacity and total ED. By so long taking L-Arginine I caused inflammation and destroyed my blood vessels. I know that erections are important to the health of the penis, but I do not know what to do! I can not even help to get Sildenafil or Pentox because it works just like L-Arginine.
Can you advise me anything?

Regards

Wladyslaw

Wladyslaw.....I can't see how Nitric Oxide can cause ED, honestly.  The body requires Nitric Oxide to keep the blood vessels open for proper blood flow.  The body creates it's own N.O. for this purpose until a person starts aging when the N.O. starts to deplete.  A lot of people get high blood pressure due to the lack of N.O. and need to take supplements such as Arginine, Beet Root Juice, or Pharmaceutical Drugs (which are bad).  Arginine should help with gettin an erection.  There must be something else that may be causing your problem which could have started about the same time you started the arginine.
Just my point of view.  If I were you, I would look at other possibilities.  dplookin

Hello dplookin,
I have found studies that say that nitric oxide is wonderful. All these studies concern short periods of supplementation from 1-6 months. As I mentioned I have been taking L-Arginine for over a year each day. A month ago I started looking for information about this supplement. It turned out that no one had yet conducted a detailed study on long-term intake of L-Arginine. However, there are suppositions that long-term supplementation of this amino acid can have very serious consequences, such as can impair the blood system, excess nitrogen oxide can also lead to imbalance and cause cell death.

Czy opłaca się stosować argininę? Obalamy fakty i mity! | Meduzo (http://www.meduzo.pl/arginina/)

"Our body, when it has arginine surplus, launches various metabolic pathways.

Initially it synthesizes a small amount of nitric oxide through cNOS, later it starts producing more NO through iNOS.

Too much NO just reverses the entire action of arginine upside down.

Instead of lowering, it increases the pressure instead of giving flexibility to the walls of the blood vessels, stiffening them instead of protecting against the infarction, accelerating it and harming the kidneys.
Arginine also increases acidity in the stomach. This is done by stimulating gastrin production and can aggravate digestive problems.

Arginine can affect changes in potassium, especially in people with liver disease."
"Does L-arginine lower blood pressure and reduce the risk of heart attack?

The question is directly related to the topic: nitric oxide as a powerful signaling compound.

Arginine is a precursor of nitric oxide, and the compound itself dilates blood vessels, lowers blood pressure, and increases tissue elasticity.

This hypothesis only works with a short-term, single dose of arginine!

This time the results of research with long-term administration of arginine and its effect on the cardiovascular system have turned out to be shocking !!

Steven P. Schulman and colleagues investigated how arginine affects people at risk of heart attack.

Expect health improvement. Certainly no one thought that arginine sufferers could die!

The study group consisted of 153 people given 3g of arginine / 3x daily.

The study was not completed because 6 people died in arthritis who were supplemented with arginine !!!

After this unhappy fact, the researchers immediately decided to stop the study.

Romero's findings have been unfavorable for the heart and vascular system.
100 patients (3g of arginine / 3x daily) were studied. The results showed that a greater amount of arginine results in an increase in iNOS and arginine activity leading instead to the elasticity of the membranes, to stiffening the vessel walls and increasing the risk of infarction!

Still other studies indicate that arginine supplementation leads to fibrosis and decreased myocardial responsiveness, left ventricular hypertrophy and decreased myocardial performance during the study. These studies also had to be interrupted!

Short-term supplementation was positive, but long-lasting tragic.
Remember!
Arginine lowers cardiac output, increases the risk of heart attack and does not lower blood pressure !!

1. Steven P and inn, L-Arginine Therapy in Acute Myocardial Infarction JAMA. 2006; 295: 58-64.
2. Medical College of Georgia (2008, February 1). Diabetes Makes It Hard For Blood Vessels To Relax. ScienceDaily. Retrieved June 25, 2009,
3. Arginine Fails to Prevent Ventricular Remodeling and Heart Failure in the Spontaneously Hypertensive Rat Wesley W. Brooks and the Inn"

according to this study nitric oxide seems to be very good:

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/crp/2012/521958/

Ray Peat on nitric oxide. He says it is mostly bad, but it is a bit controversial. We don't study much of it in regular allopathic medicine. Just the secondary messenger pathways.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D34CrlP5ZIc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgeZJoir70w

Smart guy Ph.D Ray Peat
He is not advertising nothing on his web page :)
But if you click on the links:
Ray Peat products | Nutritional-metabolic counseling, Biochemist Benedicte M. Lerche, M.Sc., Ph.D (http://www.biochemnordic.com/dr-ray-peat) not a cheap book $129 (down from $199 just for you), counselling for $120 per hour, BiochemNordic's course $299
Winter Recipe Ebook (http://www.nikkiheyder.com/store/p22/Winter_Recipe_Ebook_.html) cheep at $13
And of course promoting Dr Mercola

So not exactly a thrustable guy as he want to promote his products

James

His theories are extremely controversial.

Be careful following his advice please. Just wanted to share. Most medical doctors do not support his views.

With NO its seems to be a case of too much of a good thing is a bad thing.
Obviously NO is needed in the body.

Quote from: melting on April 18, 2017, 04:28:07 AM
With NO its seems to be a case of too much of a good thing is a bad thing.

@meltin: why? can you please elaborate?

pey ron, above post:
Nitric Oxide - good or bad? - Peyronies Society Forums [Page 2] (https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,4425.msg82110.html#msg82110)
NO is obviously part of a working body but if too much produced might cause problems