EMDA Electromotive Drug Administration

[PTMAN]

HELLO TO ALL!
NEW TO THE BOARD, SO IF THIS HAS ALREADY BEEN POSTED, PLEASE FORGIVE ME.
AS I AM IN THE PHYSICAL THERAPY FIELD, AND HAVE USED IONTOPHORESIS MANY TIMES, I THOUGHT IT MAY BE A SUCCESFUL WAY TO DELIVER DRUGS TRANSDERMALLY... GUESS I WAN'T THE ONLY ONE!
I HAVE ACCESS TO A "PHORESER" AND THE PH BUFFERED PADS, AND PERHAPS THE DEXAMETHASONE, BUT NOT THE VERAPAMIL. I AM NOT ABOVE "EXPERIMENTING" ON MY LARGE "DENT". JUST TELLING YOU WHAT'S IN MY HEAD...
ENJOY THE ARTICLE, AGAIN IF YOU HAVEN'T ALEADY SEEN IT!!!
J Androl. 2000 Jan-Feb;21(1):85-90.

Transdermal electromotive multi-drug administration for Peyronie's disease: preliminary results.
Montorsi F, Salonia A, Guazzoni G, Barbieri L, Colombo R, Brausi M, Scattoni V, Rigatti P, Pizzini G.

Institute of Human Anatomy, School of Medicine, University of Milan, Italy.

The purpose of this study was to clarify the actual therapeutic potential of a new transdermal drug delivery system (electromotive drug administration; EMDA) for selected patients with Peyronie's disease. Forty patients with Peyronie's disease were treated by electromotive administration of the 3-drug association orgotein-dexamethasone-lidocaine in a double-blind, placebo-controlled, partial crossover study (study 1). Another 25 patients were treated by EMDA with a combination of verapamil-dexamethasone in an uncontrolled study (study 2). Treatment sessions lasted 20 minutes each and took place 3 times a week for 3 weeks with a current of 3 mA. Patients were assessed before treatment and at 1- and 3-month follow-up examinations. Assessments were based on sexual history, physical examination, and dynamic color Doppler ultrasonographic results. Adverse effects of EMDA were not reported. In study 1, the clinical results observed after treatment proved to be significantly better than those of the placebo. Penile pain disappeared in all patients in both studies. Penile lesion (nodule or plaque) either disappeared or significantly improved in 79% and 90% of patients treated by the 3- and 2-drug association, respectively. The improvement of penile deformity also was notable although it did not match the effect observed on penile nodules or plaque (62% and 88%, in studies 1 and 2, respectively). In both studies, more than 80% of patients reported a definite amelioration of penile rigidity, which paralleled the improvement of penile dynamic color Doppler ultrasonographic parameters. Overall, the combination of verapamil-dexamethasone achieved better clinical results than the 3-drug combination. Electromotive drug administration is a novel technique capable of safely achieving satisfactory results in selected patients with Peyronie's disease not only in terms of improvement of patient's symptoms but also due to the reduced need for penile surgery.

PMID: 10670523 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Tim468]

Yeah, PTMAN, that is old news.

We joke here that some studies only work in Italy. It is a nice way of saying that some of the studies originating there are not being reproduced in other regions.

One guy report here - I tried it and it did not help, with one possible exception. I had an acute injury a few years ago and started doing it again to reduce the acute response and I seemed to respond. My chronic bends never changed one tiny bit.

Several hints:

1) At the top of each topic area is a bold fonted folder usually titled something like (for instance) "Highlights of Verapamil Board". Within that folder you will find a condensed and therefore easier bit of stuff to read that will get you caught up on all the different topics discussed here. This is worth doing for you - and frankly for those of us here. It helps us not cover old ground all over again, and it is why the "Highlights" folders were created.

2) If you are able to, please turn off the ALL CAPS key - it makes it harder to read your posts when you type in all caps.

Hang in there. Take some time to read and ask questions.

Tim

[PTMAN]

Sorry Tim,
Just told Old Man too...Just been typing that way so long, hard to stop! but I'll try.
Hate that about the old news. Saved that study several months ago, as I figured I would join the group some day, and wanted to have something to contribute. Should have known you guys were already all over it!:)

Thanks, P.T.

[PTMAN]

Tim,
At the risk of belaboring the issue, I wanted to ask: were the drugs delivered to your plaques via Iontophoresis verapamil and dexamethasone? Also, did they use the "red" lead on the drug pad or the "black" one? Just curious, as you have no idea how many in Physical Therapy make this common mistake. (using the improper polarity). You absolutely MUST know the resultant polarity of the drug combination, and therefore use the opposite polarity lead, in order to deliver ions of med.
If not, no drug will be delivered...
Thanks,        P.T.

[Tim468]

PT man, - did both drugs and did it right. I spent some time talking to the Italian docs who did the study and they were quite encouraging. It just didn't work.

Tim

[ComeBacKid]

PTman,

I also tried Iontophoresis, I tried just about every possible combination with black and red, and positive and negative, just one drug, just both... etc... I like Tim saw no results.

You don't hear anyone talking about iontophoresis or topical verapamil anymore, nor do you hear anyone talking about the lariche technique that was supposed to be so effective in europe.  After awhile you have to wonder how many of these so called "treatments" really did work, and how many were hyped, or involved paid off doctors...

Comebackid

[james1947]

I was yesterday to my uro and he show me an Internet book regarding EMDA. The device was used to soften and dissolve peyronie's scar tissues.
Extra corporal. The book is from 2005.
The device was used to penetrate bellow the skin to the scar area a mixture of Verapamil and Dexamethasone.
In the trial, the device produced 2mA current and was used in sessions of 20 minutes.
According to the research, in 37% of the cases the scar was completely dissolved and ED eliminated, in 17% partially dissolved scar tissues.
Have somebody in the forum try this therapy?
James

[Luciano]

I also read a study with the 37% ... that one was italian.
Seems that no one here could reproduce the effects. (Either they used a different device or different drugs)
( I also got one of the devices but no luck)
Some users here even went through the hassle of trying different mixtures of verapamil and Dexamethasone. No one got a satisfying result.

My uro says he uses it against pain, and apparently that works (sometimes)

Some studies even say its not so much the products but the electric stimulation.

To make a long story short..

Go through the threads and (unless I missed something) you will not find a single user that hat measurable benefits.

Luc

[james1947]

I have downloaded the research and attached it, but I can't see the attachment in the preview.
I hope can see when post

James

[fubar]

Well i stumbled  on to this site that sells an EMDA treatment package for 991.00 $.The kit , a little electro machine that they lease to you,  topical verapramil and a Soma correct ved.Honestly i never thought i would see something like this offered and really do not know what to think of this.


They have a pdf of a trial from the andrology medical journal you can down load and read.Also you can speak with the good doctor about this system for free.Like i said i dont know what to think about this.Good chance it is just another scam to steal money from people who are desperate for a cure.


The site is www.treatpeyronies.com


Fubar

[Luciano]

before you spend $1000
read this post
https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,992.0.html
also you can search the board for ionto or iontophoresis (that is EMDA)
As I said it can help with pain, but no one except the italian study found it helped with curvature.
Luc

[fubar]

Luciano

Im not interested in purchasing or trying this package.I wrote off veraprimal long ago.I think i know of one guy who said the injections worked for him.His success is probably from the swiss cheese puncturing of the needle.I do not think a cream will work at all.To add to that i think oral supplements only mask symptoms and will not cure peyronies.

This i believe is just another attempt to cash in on someones misery.Look if this worked i think everyone would go to thier doctor and have this treatment.I was offered the injections turned them down did not like the guy and it just did not make common sense to have someone inject me with a blood pressure medicine.
Reality tells me no shot, pill, or cream will cure me or make me all better.

What i dont get ( why i dont know what to think about it).Is what it looks like a doctor maybe writing prescriptions for veraprimal and the soma correct and probably leasing a worthless machine.The soma correct is 600.00$ alone in the states and im sure veraprimal cream is a pretty penny.That together is probably 900.00 $.Wonder what the price tag on the leased machine for 24 sessions is?


Fubar

[Luciano]

Well, actually I just seen the site now, because it was down when i posted my first reply.

This is NOT about Verapamil injections! (and I dont see a word about topical verapamil) - they might have changed the site when it was down.)

Here are my thoughts.

1. I dont see anything about leasing.. If I read it correctly its buying for $991. You have to order over phone.
They give you only electrodes and cups for 24 sessions. Thats normal, if you want more you have to buy them.

2. I do think it is a scam, BUT I might be wrong!. Why do I think its a scam? because its to cheap to be true!!!!

You get a mini physionizer.
That is a ionto device used by doctors all over the world that has special cups for peyronies. that is true.
It does help with pain.
It is not easy to use. You need an injection to put the medicine into the cup. Sticking the cup to your penis is not easy.
But studies show some results. (Again not with curvature but with pain. It does also help with plaque softening - My uro wrote some studies about that)
here the abstract (in the study he was using exactly this device):
Note: He told me that the benifit in curvature was minimal and only on patients that were very "new".

Abstract
PURPOSE: Uncontrolled studies with intraplaque electromotive administration of verapamil and dexamethasone have demonstrated objective improvements in Peyronie's disease. We performed a prospective controlled study to assess the efficacy of intraplaque electromotive verapamil/dexamethasone vs electromotive lidocaine.

MATERIALS AND METHODS: Patients with Peyronie's disease were randomized into a study group (47 patients) and a control group (49 patients). For each treatment session an electrode receptacle was sited over the plaque and filled with either 5 mg verapamil and 8 mg dexamethasone (study group) or 2% lidocaine (control group), and a 2.4 mA electric current was applied for 20 minutes. All patients were scheduled for 4 sessions per week for 6 weeks. Assessment before and after treatment included measurements of plaque volume and penile curvature, and pain on erection (from questionnaire).

RESULTS: A total of 37 patients in the study group and 36 in the control group completed treatment courses. In the study group there were significant decreases in median plaque volume from 824 to 348 mm, and in penile curvature from 43 to 21 degrees. In the control group median volume and curvature were unchanged. The difference in results after treatment between the 2 groups was also significant. Significant pain relief occurred in both groups, transient in the control group and permanent in the study group. All patients experienced temporary erythema at the electrode site. There were no other side effects.

CONCLUSIONS: Intraplaque electromotive verapamil and dexamethasone induce substantial objective improvement in Peyronie's disease compared to electromotive lidocaine administration.

or online:
http://www.mendeley.com/research/prospective-randomized-study-using-transdermal-electromotive-administration-verapamil-dexamethasone-peyronies-disease/

The device offered here is exactly the device he used in the uro clinic. I myself had 20 sessions when i was first diagnosed . I never had pain, maybe because of these sessions. I dont know.

The device is very expensive. When you buy it as an individual, the retail price is around $1500,- (€1.200) without drugs and without electrodes.

The medication and the material:
you need electrodes and mini cups that will take the medication. (about $200,- for 24 sessions) (it seems that 1 set of electrodes and cups are included in the package)

the medication is relatively cheap.  I got the verapamil and the other one, dexamethasone for like $50.- for 24 sessions.

so that adds up to at least  $1750

Then you have the soma correct 3 cylinder model - on the picture its the one with the electric pump .. I got the manual one its was like $400.- and something.. in europe.

Together you are up way over $2000.-

So why would someone sell that to you for $991.- ?

It seems to good to be true. The photo of the doc seems to be taken in the 1960s
Can be fake, must not.

Maybe they bought a stock of physionizers and soma-correct because a medical supply shop went bankrupt.
who knows?

What is true: They are offering the best stuff you can buy for less than half the official retail price.
Does it work or not with peyronies is another question. But the products are OK - so its NOT the "miracle healing - unknown product" site.

If you want to try iontophoresis and VED its certainly the cheapest you can find world wide.

Now the big question:

Do they only want to get hold of your creditcard number and rip you off? or will  they really deliver?

I do not know.

Luc

[fubar]

Luciano

On the first page in small writing just above the doctors picture he mention veraprimal.Click on how to orderon this page it is mentioned to save the patient money the physonisor is leased.

Fubar

[Luciano]

Luciano

On the first page in small writing just above the doctors picture he mention veraprimal.Click on how to orderon this page it is mentioned to save the patient money the physonisor is leased.

Fubar

Ahh yes. Now I read it.
Well in that case its the normal price.
I paid (didn't use insurance) around $30 per session (including medication) with the miniphisionizer.
so 24x30 = 720
So you get the soma correct for $271

Probably they are not using verapamil and dexamethasone but verapamil only, so the actual cost for him will be for example
$300 for the soma (he probably gets good discound as he buys a lot)
$100 for medication and electrodes
and he leases you the phisioniser.
So he makes $590 on each patient.

I guess he must have invested in lets say 10 devices.
(they cost him like $15.000)
if he has 30 patients. he is even. (He probably has much more patients)

So I would say its NOT a scam, but he makes good money.
For you, if you want that kind of treatment, its not cheap, but its OK, as it is about the price you will pay if you have it done at the doc (or hospital) and buy a soma correct.

(he makes even more money, because he doesnt have to pay his assitant for giving you the treatment 24x 20 minutes. and he would only have the capacity to have like 2 patients at the time.. With this system he can have hundreds)
So its very good buisiness for him, and for you its the same price you would get it at a doctors practice, but you dont have to go there and can do it at home.
4x a week if the doctor is far away is not easy. - especially if you work and he only has appointments for you at 10AM. (4x a week for 6 weeks. My boss would not accept it)

So lets say its not a bargain, but its ok.
(as you probably have a week to send it back, you could buy the medication on your own and do 4 extra sessions for free)

Luc

[Chef Chris]

Hi Guys anybody tried to order this stuff and seen any results here is the link again
http://www.treatpeyronies.com
Thanks  

[james1947]

Sound like a ripoff to me:
The entire PDT+ System is $991.00.
The phone consultation is $60.
SomaCorrect Device to help straighten.....SomaCorrect is not the only VED in the market.

James

[nemo]

Yes, I tried iontophoresis about 5-6 years ago and it did nothing for me, save an incident where the lead attached to my thigh actually caused a deep burn for some reason I never figured out. Left a scar for several months.  Thank god it wasn't the lead attached to my penis that burned.  I felt a slight stinging sensation but it wasn't enough to make me pull the patch off ... and low and behold, the thing was shorting out or something and burning me.  

But even before that accident, I tried ionto religiously for several months and it did nothing of any benefit.  

Nemo

[Chef Chris]

Ok thanks guys