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pey ron

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Finasteride
« on: April 04, 2018, 01:51:07 PM »

I mentioned multiple times that I think finasteride has to be blamed in many cases.

Now, I've found this paper: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12647000
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Tsanchez12369

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Re: Finasteride
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2018, 02:32:46 PM »

Those who acquired peyronies after taking finasteride should start a class action lawsuit, only way to really get the word out to the public and doctors.
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Paolo

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Post-finasteride syndrome and post-SSRI sexual dysfunction
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2018, 03:02:34 PM »

Post-finasteride syndrome and post-SSRI sexual dysfunction: two sides of the same coin?

Interestingly, sexual dysfunction persists in both cases after drug discontinuation

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29675596
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james1947

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Re: Finasteride
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2018, 07:16:36 AM »

Yes Tsanchez, you are right.
My ED started after Finasteride. Stopped and the ED almost gone, then broke my penis and Peyronies started.
Have 70 posts on the forum regarding Finasteride as many members started Peyronies from there

James
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james1947

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Re: Post-finasteride syndrome and post-SSRI sexual dysfunction
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2018, 07:20:17 AM »

Pey Ron started this topic in the subject:
Finasteride - Peyronies Society Forums

James
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Paolo

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Re: Post-finasteride syndrome and post-SSRI sexual dysfunction
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2018, 08:40:34 AM »

Yeah, I know but this linked anti-depressants (SSRI) into the mix, and I have a history with those, Prozac in particular.
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tiagofil

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Re: Finasteride
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2018, 11:29:18 AM »

Agreed, if you like having good erectile and sexual function avoid psychiatric medications like the plague. In fact I go so far as to say if you have any consideration for your physical and mental health avoid those drugs. 
Unfortunatelly I'm talking from personal experience. If you need go to talk therapy instead. If it doesn't work at least it's only bad for your wallet.
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Tsanchez12369

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Re: Finasteride
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2018, 12:13:27 PM »

I have to disagree.  As a psychologist I strongly believe in psychotherapy.  However psychiatric meds are a lifesaver (literally) for many.  Also, many scientific studies show best results w a combo of the two.  Psychiatric illnesses and meds are so stigmatized in our culture people don’t get the help they need and suffer (even die) needlessly.
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Werther

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Re: Finasteride
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2018, 12:17:24 PM »

I don't agree that much. There are very severe cases where talking with a therapist is completely useless. What would you do if you suffered from chronic insomnia and severe fatigue for example? Do you think that speaking with someone about the fact that you're reduced to a zombie will solve the problem?

Bear in mind that medication for mental illness is just the first line treatment and ECT and even brain surgery (they call it psychosurgery) are still used today even if the general opinion is that these last treatments are barbaric and they were only used in the past. This makes pretty clear that psychiatric diseases are real and they can be very disabling.

I personally believe that if you don't have any severe symptom that manifests itself physically, you won't even need to go to a therapist and you could solve the problem by yourself. Otherwise a psychiatrist (who is a doctor, instead of a therapist) is your choice.

This paper - and actually there are several ones - only shed light on a iatrogenic disease that's been around for quite some time now and it's called PSSD. SSRIs and maybe some TCAs cause it, but there are several antidepressants that don't cause sexual side effects (e.g. Wellbutrin, Tianeptine, Moclobemide, Mirtazapine or Buspirone). The sad fact is that generally psychiatrists won't tell you about the possibility of being rendered permanent impotent with SSRIs, because they don't even know about the existence of PSSD (I don't know why, but it looks like its own existence is still controversial in the medical community, even if there have been several reports from consumers).
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tiagofil

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Re: Finasteride
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2018, 02:14:40 PM »

And I disagree with both stances. Yes drugs may be a lifesaver for many, but it can also help ruin the life of many people. And it seems that's not being accounted for in many studies. There's already increasing consensus that antidepressants aren't helpful in ordinary depression vs placebo. There is general thought that they are helpful in Major Depressive Disorder, but more and more studies are questioning that.
For example: "SSRIs might have statistically significant effects on depressive symptoms, but all trials were at high risk of bias and the clinical significance seems questionable. SSRIs significantly increase the risk of both serious and non-serious adverse events. The potential small beneficial effects seem to be outweighed by harmful effects."

As for the facts that meds are so stigmatized, it seems less and less so since pharmaceutical companies are having record profits with this drugs year after year, with more people being diagnosed with mental illness every day. And with diagnoses that leave much to be desired in relation to scientific validity.

"What would you do if you suffered from chronic insomnia and severe fatigue for example? Do you think that speaking with someone about the fact that you're reduced to a zombie will solve the problem?"

Man you're reading my mind it seems. In my case earplugs at night, reducing light, long walks and physical exercice during the day did the trick. Until the unbearable stress I'm feeling with Peyronies f'^+'ed me up again. Drugs certainly didn't did the trick for me in the past.

Go look studies into increased levels of serotonin that provoke fibroblasts and increased inflammation in the body and get back to me.




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Gabriel

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Re: Finasteride
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2018, 03:14:36 PM »

Guys, I was myself veeeeery critic about shrinks and meds, but after one year and a half of psychotherapy, I can tell you two things that henceforth I personnally take for sure:

1) Psychotherapy is indeed effective, and for some people absolutely necessary in a lifetime. For some reason I still don't understand, some of us just aren't able to get better just by practicing common-sense beneficial activites, such as walking, putting things in perspective, stop complaining, set new objectives or "relax" and "reduce stress". Maybe 10% of their personnality will be affected by these contextual solutions, while the other 90% of their soul will just continue structurally hindering into depression. This is when psychotherapy becomes not only useful, but urgent; and that's an "active / responsible / workaholic / sportive" guy speaking...

2) I personnaly refused medications, as I have the same fear you express. But I do think that, if I haden't finally found the therapist I needed, I would have absolutely needed them before I think to do something bad. And surely I'm not alone in that case...

Now, reading the fascinating studies posted by Pey Ron and Paolo (thanks guys !), I have a question : do you think that any kind of androgen-lowering substances could cause or encourage Peyronies Disease to develop ? I'm just thinking : I've been taking a mix of useful natural compounds for chronic prostatitis (mostly epilobium) for a few months before my Peyronies started, and these plants are said to have an anti-DHT effect by inhibiting 5-alpha-reductase (and for prostate care, I can tell you this meds do have effect)...
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Werther

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Re: Finasteride
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2018, 09:24:59 PM »

Quote deleted by moderator! Please read the forum rules!

Then it looks like you're reading my mind too, since the example is borrowed from my life. I haven't tried any antidepressants till now, but what you did to overcome the problem without meds was and is impossible for me. I went regularly to the gym or played soccer before this crap setted in, but I had to completely stop all these activities mainly due to fatigue. Congrats for you, if you managed to recover sleep and energy during the day only by respecting the so-called sleep hygiene rules, but for me it did nothing. That's why I've been considering for quite some time getting some of these drugs. Your case, compared to mine, seems to represent a perfect example beetwen clinical depression and/or anxiety and depression/anxiety that are clinically irrelevant (or, if it sounds better, it seems to confirm the distinction beetwen prymary insomnia and secondary insomnia, where the latter is caused by psychiatric illness).

Regarding the rest of your answer, I can only note that it doesn't represent a disagreement with what I said before. You're basically telling me that SSRIs don't work and they cause ED, sometimes permanently (a.k.a. PSSD). These are the same things I said in my message (well, precisely I've just talked about PSSD, but I had also read the papers you're referring to where it's claimed that these drugs' effects could not be considered superior to the placebo). I just pointed out that there are several others antidepressants whose action's mechanism is very different from SSRIs and aren't likely to cause sexual impairments. Take for instance Wellbutrin (one of the few antidepressants I quoted in my last message): it's a NDRI (Noradrenaline and Dopamine Reuptake Inihibitor), so it doesn't mess ever with serotonine. It's not a case that Wellbutrin is generally used after people developed PSSD and some of these guys actually recover from sexual impairments caused by their previous meds (you can read about this everywhere on the web and I believe that there are even scientific papers on this matter). I'd just like to stress out the importance of getting well informed - especally for us, who are already dealing with sexual impairments - on any kind of antidepressant that could be useful without interfering with sexual function. These different antidepressants actually exist, but everybody should get informed on their own because it looks like psychiatrists work the most with SSRIs.

Keep in mind that I agree with you even when you say that "more people being diagnosed with mental illness every day. And with diagnoses that leave much to be desired in relation to scientific validity". That's the exact problem of Psychiatry and it's not even their fault: there aren't biomarkers yet (like it happens with lots of organic diseases); but this doesn't mean that these diseases don't exist. You just have to be careful and you should judge by yourself if you're actually suffering from a mental disease or you're ok (because medical's opinion isn't diriment since it's not supported by tests and clinical evidence). Just to make an example, it wouldn't have been improbable if I got diagnosed with mild depression or dysthymia when I was younger, only because I was a pessimistic person: if something like this did actually happened, I simply would have told the doc to shove his beloved SSRIs in his a$$, since there was no way I could be clinically depressed when I first didn't feel like it. This is also what I think people should do when they get offered antidepressants for diagnosis like "dysthymia": imo the mere definition of this "disease" doesn't make it sound like it's actually one, so we should offer drugs for someone who's most probably completely ok?

In conclusion I have to say that we just limited our conversation to the most classical and spread mental problems (i.e. depression and anxiety), but looking at other mental illnesses, you'll see how psychodrugs are the only thing that could help certain people. I sincerely can't believe that a schizoprenic will stop hearing voices and see things that don't exist just by talking to a therapist or doing sports.

I personally don't believe that much in psychotherapy because these problems are organic in my opinion.
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pey ron

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Re: Finasteride
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2018, 03:47:20 PM »

poor sleep --> get your free testosterone levels checked.
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Doglegleft

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Re: Finasteride
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2018, 03:08:53 PM »

Just joined the forum yesterday and saw this, I was diagnosed with Peyronies 12 months after I started finestaride.
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drew67

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Re: Finasteride
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2018, 12:16:40 PM »

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30058066?dopt=Abstract

CONCLUSION:

Although 5-ARIs cause marked atrophic changes in prostatic epithelial tissues, and prominent collagen deposition in penile cavernosal tissues, no significant effect on penile ICPs was seen in this study. The failure to show a statistically significant difference was attributed to higher standard deviations of ICP values. If sample size and duration of the treatment are increased, statistically significant results in ICPs may be reached. The penile morphology evaluation results point to a negative effect of 5-ARIs on erectile function.
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Doglegleft

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Re: Finasteride
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2018, 07:20:09 PM »

Hi Drew,  just stating what happened to me, seems like a strange coincidence. Fine for 49 active years then about one year after starting it I came down with Peyronies Disease, I’ll never no for sure but I feel it definitely contributed to it and if I knew then what I know now I never would have taken it. Just my opinion and hopefully it may steer others from taking the risk.
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lukewill

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Re: Finasteride
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2018, 07:37:56 PM »

It one hundred percent is linked to finasteride hence what has now been coined as post finasteride syndrome and why there are hundreds of law suits against merck the makers. There was talk that once this blows up, this will be one of the biggest pharmaceutical cases in American legal history. Only problem is merk are extremely powerful. They practically own the FDA in the US and as we all know the pharmaceutical industry is one of the most powerful and corrupt industries in the world.

Anyone who lives in the US should be urged to join in on the lawsuit. There are joint cases with mass clients all together. If anything you’ll maybe one day get some compensation to pay for a lifetime of medical bills you’ve had to endure.
Meek are claiming there is no evidence though. But lawyers are claiming they have audio and written evidence stating that merk falsified clinical trial data to get finasteride onto the shelves. They knew there were permanent sexual side effects from their clinical trials but did not submit that data. They also knew that whoevwr found the ‘cure’ for baldness would become billionaires overnight. They have been taken to caught many times for other cases where Their drugs have even killed people I think. They are an awful company.
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pfract

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Re: Finasteride
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2018, 09:02:03 PM »

Even with the complaints online, the syndrome name, guys will still try to use this to prevent baldness no matter what.  A lot of them refuse to believe it also.

There should be huge warnings on this board against it's usage... But no.
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Doglegleft

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Re: Finasteride
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2018, 10:30:48 PM »

I agree 100%, what i would to be in that position to never have tried it.
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Doglegleft

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Re: Finasteride
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2018, 11:00:09 PM »

Lukewill what is the lawsuit? I had them mail me all of my receipts of purchase
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Tsanchez12369

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Re: Finasteride
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2018, 02:47:29 PM »

Unfortunately the drug companies can make so much money, the resultant lawsuit settlements don’t put a dent in the profits...so they just release the drugs even w known hazards.
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lukewill

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Re: Finasteride
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2018, 12:43:21 PM »

Tsanshez. Yes correct. It’s very corrupt.
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lukewill

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Re: Finasteride
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2018, 12:49:23 PM »


If you google it I’m pretty sure a whole bunch of differing law suits will come up but they’re pretty much all US based.

I first took this drug 15 years ago. I only took one pill. I lost all feeling in my penis the next day. Gone.
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Doglegleft

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Re: Finasteride
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2018, 01:40:35 PM »

Lukewill thank you, I googled it and it said that the average settlement was about 5K, that is beyond absurd after suffering this type of damage. Thank you for the info fellas, greatly appreciated.
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lukewill

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Re: Finasteride
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2018, 02:02:33 PM »



5k? Are you serious ? I didn’t realise they had reached a settlement already ? Could you post the links please.
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Doglegleft

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Re: Finasteride
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2018, 09:15:42 PM »

Lukewill I will try to do that I was reading it this morning
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Doglegleft

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Re: Finasteride
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2018, 11:33:55 AM »

Lukewill just google ‘Merck agrees to settle 562 Propecia/Finasteride US Lawsuits’ Very lengthy article and im having difficulty uploading the link. As with anything on the internet im not sure of its accuracy.
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lukewill

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Re: Finasteride
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2018, 08:14:08 PM »

Thanks for the info. I am stunned that the payout was so small. Stunned. Peoples lives ruined. And they get 5k ? Wow
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Doglegleft

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Re: Finasteride
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2018, 06:45:40 PM »

Totally agree, just beyond comprehension
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