Dick Experiments...

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JohnWright

This is not a survey, it's just a conversation, so ADMIN please do not move this.

Surgeons experiment on humans all the time while they work out the details for procedures to fix this or that. Particularly when a new procedure appears promising, surgeons will publish reports at the US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed  (which is also a great resource for your own research on "peyronies" and "congenital" search terms.)

Two highly respected European dick surgeons reported in December 2017 about their experiment to increase dick length as a bonus to installing implants -- in men who agreed to let their dick be experimented upon:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29275049

Quick dick summary:

a) 138 men agreed to let their dick be experimented on.
b) It was completed by two highly respected dick surgeons, Egydio and Kuehhas -- so there's credibility.
c) By the 15th month after surgery, the median range of increase in penile length, delivered by the experiment, ranged from 2 to 5 cm or from 3/4 inch to 2 inches.
d) There's no reporting about post-surgery girth improvement.
e) There is no description of what exactly "slit" means in relation to cutting the dick. Zero complications directly related to the procedure were reported.

It's interesting that 138 men were willing to let their dick be experimented on!

WOULD YOU BE WILLING?
Many guys on this Forum who suffer from Peyronies Disease for years, and own it like a piece of luggage, are terrified of surgery. You know who you are -- and that's fine. This question is NOT for you since we already know how you feel.

Let's focus on the men who are not terrified. It's a brave new world out there. New technology exists and most importantly, there are a handful of thoughtful and caring surgeons who 1) acknowledge and specialize in all aspects of male sexual function, and 2) who strive to improve male sexual function.

If a surgeon with the skills, overall experience, and credibility offered you the opportunity to be involved in a new surgical experiment on your dick with the goal being:

- Straightening your curved dick (whether from Peyronie's or a congenital curve), or
- Improvement in length or girth

would you at least consider the surgeon's offer? If so, why? What considerations would you have?



swiss

I would probably consider it but would need to be sedated on the way to the doctors office because I am terrified of surgery. lol.  

DELETED

I would consider this type of lengthening surgery but only if it's implies technique without implantation of penile prosthesis. But reports of gain of 2-5 cm of course very exciting.

JohnWright

Alex -- What if the surgery wasn't specific to lengthening, but just fixing a curve? Would you consider being an experimental subject?

Hrvat21

Yeah, it would give me back my pre peyronie size and i would have penile prosthesis, and probably for free. I am considering this or similar type of surgery lately and would probably accept the offer.

Jonbinspain

I'm not sure about penis lengthening techniques and remain a tad sceptical about a guaranteed successful outcome.

As one who has undergone successful surgery for a bad case of Peyronie's - Franklin Kuehhas was the surgeon - surgery is the very last resort. It does not come without at least a moderate degree of risk. In my case it was successful and I'm glad I was brave/desperate enough to go through with it. All else I had tried had failed.

However, unless you current equipment is seriously deficient or damaged by Peyronie's, I would advise you try all other measures first.  

popopo

Yes I would, this is still one of the few things I actually consider doing. Th noy thng thats holding me back is that I cant find a lot of reviews and I doubt I could be happy if I didnt at least regain my old size.
Age: 25
Date of onset: 17
Symptoms: sharp pains, numbness, change in shape/size, hourglassing and discolaration from jelqing/VED usage as a teen. Diagnosed with a venous leak and possible scarring.
Treatments tried: cialis, pentox and VED didnt help

DELETED

JohnW,

No, but if this surgery also promise some length gain, I'd definitely want to go on it

JohnWright

Interesting responses so far.

Here's the question: If a surgeon with the skills, overall experience, and credibility offered you the opportunity to be involved in a new surgical experiment on your dick with the goal being:

- Straightening your curved dick (whether from Peyronie's or a congenital curve), with
- Improvement in length or girth

would you at least consider the surgeon's offer to be experimented upon? If so, why?

popopo

At this point, yes. I personally dont have a bend, but I have lost a lot of size and the shape has changed. I have what people here call hourglassing. The reason I would try is because I know I wont be happy doing nothing and so far acute phase seems to return once in a while. Also, my erection quality is worsening as well. I think an implant might be a way to stop this progression or at least not make it visible in size and shape. The other reason I would do it is because all other current treatments seem useless. The implant is o.k. but traditionally it's never used to increase size and having gone from "average" to small I dont want that. "Average" feels small (i'm also 6'3") and the fact a surgeon even cares about size gives a little hope.
Age: 25
Date of onset: 17
Symptoms: sharp pains, numbness, change in shape/size, hourglassing and discolaration from jelqing/VED usage as a teen. Diagnosed with a venous leak and possible scarring.
Treatments tried: cialis, pentox and VED didnt help

DELETED

Quote from: JohnW on December 30, 2017, 02:03:49 PM
would you at least consider the surgeon's offer to be experimented upon? If so, why?

If this give me extra 1" of EL, I'll definitely choose this option

JohnWright

Alex -- Do you feel shorted in length?

Considering how squeamish guys on this Forum claim to be, I'm amazed that over 130 men signed up for the original experiment!!!

damned

Maybe they didn't know it was still in the experimental phase?

Jack1909

I would go for any experiment on my penis but surgery. I'd rather let me inject the most dangerous thing in the world...
31 yrs old
Severe congenital curvature. 3 straightening surgeries
Big lump/stitch w/ left deviation after 2012 surgery
Severe ED after last one in 2014. Still crooked
Slightly improved w/ shockwave therapy
Looks like only one side of my penis works

Pfract

Great thread Johnw! I will try to answer properly and with time in the morning, on my computer. But like it was said before here.... Surgery always has it's risks!  

Jack1909

Singular fact is that probably surgery carries more risks than any else experimental treatment..but it has no limits. :)
31 yrs old
Severe congenital curvature. 3 straightening surgeries
Big lump/stitch w/ left deviation after 2012 surgery
Severe ED after last one in 2014. Still crooked
Slightly improved w/ shockwave therapy
Looks like only one side of my penis works

JohnWright

Risk: There is risk in everything. Getting out of bed. Walking the dog. Driving a car. Going to work. Buying BitCoin. Eating sushi. Taking medications. Eating cheese. Jogging. Fishing. Sleeping. Everything has risk.

Risk management: Everything we do involves weighing the risks. I don't eat sushi therefore the risk to me of being host to a tapeworm is signifcantly(!) lower that those who do eat sushi, and I don't want a tapeworm  :o

Those who do eat sushi have to engage in levels of risk management that I don't have to waste my time with. However, as I commute 50 miles to work, I engage in risk management for 50 entire miles -- all sorts of risks present themselves every day. Risks that have potential to kill me.

AND YET, I still get in the car and drive, because I'm informed and experienced at managing and reacting to the risks  8)

SURGERY: There is no difference with surgery than with driving. As individuals, we are responsible for risk management. Most of us aren't that familiar with surgery, how to identify risks, let alone how to manage the risks. OLDMAN, a member of this Forum, has had a staggering number of surgeries on various parts of his body -- and he lives as a testament that it is possible to obtain desired surgery outcomes.  

One of the factors every human should consider, when engaging risk management for potential surgery to any part of their body, is the complication rate.

In this study, by the 15th month after surgery, zero complications directly related to the procedure were reported.

Let's unpack this statement about "complications."

Feel free to chime in with more you can think of -- these are just the high-level buckets of THINGS THAT CAN GENERATE COMPLICATIONS. Coming from my own non-scientific mind, complications can be caused by:
# An action the patient takes before the surgery
# An action the patient takes after surgery
# An action the patient failed to take before or after surgery
# Known systemic health conditions present in the patient prior to surgery
# A significant, but unknown, health condition present in the patient that impacts surgery/post surgery
# Supplements the patient was taking within the weeks leading into or immediately post surgery
# Medications the patient was taking within the weeks leading into or immediately post surgery
* Infection prevention practices in the surgery theater and rigor of enforcement, and track record
* Skill, knowledge, and experience of the surgeon with the specific technique and part of the body
* Whether or not the desired surgeon will actually be doing the work or merely supervising

# = Potential source of complications caused by YOU
* = Potential source of complications directly related to the procedure

This study reported zero complications from items marked  *  across 138 men. It's a data point.






Jack1909

You are so bothering. Your comment is absolute nonsense. Comparing getting out of bed to something which is supposed to be guided by SCIENCE. But the most annoying of you is the part in which you point out patients responsabilities.  
31 yrs old
Severe congenital curvature. 3 straightening surgeries
Big lump/stitch w/ left deviation after 2012 surgery
Severe ED after last one in 2014. Still crooked
Slightly improved w/ shockwave therapy
Looks like only one side of my penis works

JohnWright

hehe, why thank you Jack1909.

Being annoying is part of my mission in life. Nothing like facts to prod folks into that annoyed feeling.

popopo

Jack is kinda right.. I mean, everything has risks (you could've just said that instead of posting half a paper full of examples) but the fact is that we try to get rid of scar tissue and surgery CAUSES scar tissue rather than get rid of it. That's exactly why in most cases people advice against surgery unless absolutely necessary. On top of that, most of these surgeries have such limited results that it is (in my opinion) not even worth the risk to begin with.
Age: 25
Date of onset: 17
Symptoms: sharp pains, numbness, change in shape/size, hourglassing and discolaration from jelqing/VED usage as a teen. Diagnosed with a venous leak and possible scarring.
Treatments tried: cialis, pentox and VED didnt help

JohnWright

As the moderator of this thread, it is my pleasure to inform you that if you don't like the topic, you don't have to participate.

The thread was started to give guys who are open to the subject an opportunity to weigh in with their opinions and thoughts. Please read the opening post before putting fingers to keyboard.  

redbullmaster

Did no one else notice the line in the report "One glans necrosis was encountered."
This means the gland cells died and would have resulted in amputation of the head of the penis.

I had this surgery under the uclh london hospital, it was ponted out to me after the surgery that it was a very new surgery.
The long term results are to early to say, so in 5 or 10 years there may still be a risk of loss of penis.

Apart from the surgeon who performed the surgery, everyone else at the hospital couldn't believe I would risk losing my penis.
When I asked the surgeon about the surgery he said he could do it and said it was a risky surgery, but didn't make it sound that dangerous.
In fairness I  bought up the MOST technique to him and he said he could do it.  

Would probably still have had the surgery knowing all the risks, as I was worried about my size and wanted to regain  as much size as possible.
I was told I gained 1.5cm from the surgery, I'm at about 7 inches now and before the surgery I was about 6.5.

But in a VED I was 7.5, which is what I was hoping to end up at, I do wonder if I would have gained more size under Kuehhas.

I will add, I've had a Nesbit and a stage surgery before this one and the pain from the Sliding technique surgery was the worse I've ever experienced.
 

JohnWright

Interesting...the "sliding technique" of penile prosthesis. This subject has been touched on a couple of times before on the Forum. But, an update to the topic is that 143 men participated in the sliding technique experiment, with Egydio and Kuehas, linked below.

Penile lengthening and widening without grafting according to a modified 'sliding' technique - Egydio - 2015 - BJU International - Wiley Online Library

@Redbullmaster: So the pain was intense, which I can appreciate after looking the pictures in the link above. What year did you have this surgery? At this point in time, how would you describe sexual function?

redbullmaster

I had the surgery done in August 2016, only used it once with a woman.
That was last year after a drunken night out with a lesbian friend who said she would help me to try it out.

I'm not happy with the Implant aspect of the surgery, as one of the tubes is high up on the left side of my penis.
Also I suffer from soft glans, so I'm still quite insecure about using it with someone new.

I did have vein ligation to help with the soft glans issue, not a difference to before and after.
But the first time I masturbated after the surgery I did have the most intense orgasm.
This effect did not last and soon went away.

The problem now is I still get excited and want to masturbate, but when I orgasm there is no real pleasure to it.
I still get the excitement to the build up, but when I come, its a non event.
Not sure if this is a mind issue or a physical one, but this has put me off thinking of girls or sex as there seems to be little or no point.

JohnWright

I think what you're describing is called sexual anhedonia.

I'll PM you.

Sitting Bull

"If a surgeon with the skills, overall experience, and credibility"

I don't think there are doctors out there with all three attributes.
My answer is no, no and no.

On the other had I do think that if any advance was made in dick surgery it was thanks to "pioneer" patients who chose to undergo surgery (and are now maybe bearing the long term consequences of it) and gave doctors a chance to experiment and improve the treatments they offer.

The Romans used to say: "navigare necesse est, vivere non necesse". Sailing/discovering is a necessity, living is not.

JohnWright

Agreed -- There's no doubt that men have been the guinea pigs in early efforts of trying to straighten curved dicks from 15-20 years ago.

Time moves on, and today, the medical field of male sexual function exists, with many competent, skilled, passionate providers.

In the U.S., I think that Gelman (Orange, California), Kramer (Baltimore, Maryland), and Walsh (Seattle, Washington) are three examples of male sexual function specialists who do have skill, overall experience, and credibility.

Because I would trust any of these three today, where we are in history, I think that if one of them said, "Hey, I have this technique I've been developing to fix curved dicks...." that I would definitely be open to having the conversation.



Sitting Bull

Still, advancements in the correction of penile curvature are stiil feeble (procedures still consistently fail as we speak) the same way no progress at all has been made on cancer treatments.

What has changed and has brought men to accept unproven or likely to fail treatments is a change in the western society.
As the society turned materialistic, there has a been a change in how human beings deal with pain.
Pain was once part of every man's life while today pain also meaning a situation which causes discomfort like a penile curvature.
Think of the worst pain of them all: death.
We now have life insurances and death has become an accident and we have an insurance for it.
As human culture moved from spiritual to edonistic materialism men ended up requiring the satisfaction of their primal instincts no matter what, sex being the first.

A demand for sexual instinct satisfaction needed an offera nd that's when all the faulty, sloppy surgery procedures and treatments we know of have been approved and sold.
At some point the fact that a treatment was marketable and that there was a demand for it became more important of the effectiveness of the treatments itself.
And penile curvature is a clear example.

Men no longer want to bear the pain of not being able to have sex (which is a really silly thing): once they were strong enough to bear the pain, today they undergo Nesbitt and get messed up even more, so much for not wanting to carry a cross.
But the medicine market is the new God they have, their key to phasing their pain out, to such an extent that a doctor offering a treatment for free is seen as a benefactor.
In fact he is just testing the treatment and will start selling it shortly after.

I chose to carry the cross like Jesus Christ, bear the pain and give up sex entirely as soon as I realized all this.
And it was like being freed from slavery.

Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel defined the concept of bad infinity, the perpetual repetition of a pleasure which never reaches its completion.

Hrvat21

Is this an example of irony? Or do you choose to live your life without a dick?

Sitting Bull

Ironic is, in my opinion, undergoing surgical treatments that simply don't work thus adding insult to injury.

And yes it was my choice.

Jack1909

I chose treatments and I'm actually living dickless..so what's the difference?  
31 yrs old
Severe congenital curvature. 3 straightening surgeries
Big lump/stitch w/ left deviation after 2012 surgery
Severe ED after last one in 2014. Still crooked
Slightly improved w/ shockwave therapy
Looks like only one side of my penis works

Hrvat21

Why don't you put in an implant?

Jack1909

I'm not elegible for implant...I'm dealing with a massive neuropathy and consequent lingering pain (sexual stimulation means pain in 2/3 of the penis). Going to try to be enrolled in some experimental trials soon. Nothing to lose anymore honestly don't know how many people could survive in my shoes.

I'm living my intimacy keeping my pants on and just being generous. Nice don't??
31 yrs old
Severe congenital curvature. 3 straightening surgeries
Big lump/stitch w/ left deviation after 2012 surgery
Severe ED after last one in 2014. Still crooked
Slightly improved w/ shockwave therapy
Looks like only one side of my penis works

LWillisjr

Quote from: Sitting Bull on February 25, 2018, 04:54:03 AM
Ironic is, in my opinion, undergoing surgical treatments that simply don't work thus adding insult to injury.

Sitting Bull,
Yes, it is your choice. I am not questioning that.
But how do you account for cases where someone did treatment, or even surgery, and they came out better with the result? Where is the irony in that?
Developed peyronies 2007 - 70 degree dorsal curve
Traction/MEDs/Injections/Surgery 2008 16 years Peyronies free now
My History

Sitting Bull

You are asking the wrong question to the wrong person.
It is Hrvat21 who thinks choosing not to have surgery and live with your penis as it is, is like some kind of joke.

My reply to him simply contains the result of applying his logic to my point of view.

But since you asked: those who saw their situation improving deserve the same kind of respect of those who chose not take the risk of having surgery.

Jack1909

You might be right but what is beyond any comprehension is why you are still in here, if that is your choice. Same thing goes for those who have overcome the problem and still attend the forum.  
31 yrs old
Severe congenital curvature. 3 straightening surgeries
Big lump/stitch w/ left deviation after 2012 surgery
Severe ED after last one in 2014. Still crooked
Slightly improved w/ shockwave therapy
Looks like only one side of my penis works

Pfract

Hey Jack... Why do you say you are not eligible for a penile implant? From what I see here of your symptoms, I almost feel like saying it's something you should not neglect investigating.  

Sitting Bull

I am still reading the forum because I like to read about experiences (good and bad) of men who share my condition, medicine progress (if any) and keep myself informed, and ultimately offer an alternative point of view.

Jack1909

[Full quote removed - Admin Les      warning sent]

Just doing it..I had some preliminary evaluations and the answer was the same: you cannot put an implant if you are suffering from a major neuropathy like me. Don't want to look offensive but fortunately no one knows what dealing with such a neuropathy means. I have no options but investigating experimental treatments.  
31 yrs old
Severe congenital curvature. 3 straightening surgeries
Big lump/stitch w/ left deviation after 2012 surgery
Severe ED after last one in 2014. Still crooked
Slightly improved w/ shockwave therapy
Looks like only one side of my penis works

JohnWright

@Jack1909: Are you saying that the neuropathy also affects your dick? It's possible, I just never went there in my own thinking.

And, if that's what you're saying, then you're also saying the implant doctor sees that as a major complication, errr roadblock?

Jack1909

[Full quote removed - Admin Les    Warning sent]

Yes guys the neuropathy is on my penis. It comes from a damage of the neurovascolar bundle caused by the straightening surgeries I had (2012 Milan and Kuehhas's 2014, that was really that one that knocked my penis out). It really makes me plough through every day as i can't have a shower wear pants like normal people do and so on. It's just on the penis and it looks like to be an obstacle to an implant. They say I can't get through such such a surgery if the pain is so severe. It might worsen. This is why I'm exploring others ways..
Unfortunately before the last surgery my erections were good..
31 yrs old
Severe congenital curvature. 3 straightening surgeries
Big lump/stitch w/ left deviation after 2012 surgery
Severe ED after last one in 2014. Still crooked
Slightly improved w/ shockwave therapy
Looks like only one side of my penis works