HYPERTHERMIA - Infrared light & Heating therapy

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Hawk

I don't dismiss your opinion or your report.  I understand that you sincerely think the VED caused you damage.  I accept that fact that maybe it did, but I also have to allow for the fact that maybe it did not.  Mixed in with all of that I would have to allow that if it did cause the progression, maybe you were far more aggressive with it than was wise.  Again, maybe you were conservative with it and in your case it caused damage.

What we do know is that if that is true then it is an almost unprecedented exception to the the reported outcome as reported for years by hundreds of users.  I would not be shocked to know it was true because I know of no treatment that is universally safe.  For instance Pentox can cause a worsening of symptoms in some men.  My point is that from one report that someone got worse after using the VED, or even after a report that 5% of all men that use it getting worse (which is NOT the reported fact), how could we conclude:
1. They used it properly
2. The progression was caused by the VED when it is more likely the VED only failed to stop a progressive disease.

Clearly I have no vested interest.  I don't sell VED's.  I don't even prefer them to traction.  I just know that:
1. They are supported by many urologists
2. They have a higher reported satisfaction rate than any single treatment with the possible exception of Pentox

Surely that is clear and understandable.  Looking at these facts, it is the only position a person could responsibly take.  
Prostatectomy 2004, radiation 2009, currently 70 yrs old
After pills, injections, VED - Dr Eid, Titan 22cm implant 8/7/18
Hawk - Updated 10/27/18 - Peyronies Society Forums

swolf

I overpumped the first time I tried it (to whatever extent. I don't think I was that aggressive at all), with bad results, but I was also extremely careful when trying it again many months later, and damaged myself further at that time too. I would actually like to try it again but I'm at a point where I really don't want to damage myself any more (who isn't always at that point, I know, :) ). There are a few others I've heard of who said something like this; an individual in particular I remember on the forum at some point, and then funnyfarm I think recently. I completely understand that it works for the vast majority of men and that is a very good thing, I just think it's important that the view is available that it's possible that despite your best efforts it might not work, and maybe even could harm you, so don't force a continuation if you're getting signs of that.  

Hawk

Quote from: swolf on March 20, 2013, 10:10:15 AM
I just think it's important that the view is available that it's possible that despite your best efforts it might not work, and maybe even could harm you, so don't force a continuation if you're getting signs of that.

SWolf, I think if you will recall, you will remember that I am the one that sent you a PM encouraging you to start a specific topic to report your experience so that information was available to others.  I certainly have not tried restrict that opinion, but I have to try my best to see that all the facts are laid out as they fall.
Prostatectomy 2004, radiation 2009, currently 70 yrs old
After pills, injections, VED - Dr Eid, Titan 22cm implant 8/7/18
Hawk - Updated 10/27/18 - Peyronies Society Forums

funnyfarm

swolf yes two very light pumping sessions both left me swollen and in pain for days.  I am sure there was no permanent damage but it was very clear VED was not going to work for me.

I think we all developed Peyronies Disease for different reasons, so we each have to discover our unique path to health.  For better or worse, there is no standard universal solution.  We need to be flexible, patient, and listen to our bodies.
When you are in tune with the unknown, the known is peaceful.

greybeard

When I first read the suggestion that IR light from leds might offer some pain relief, my first reaction was 'ah yes, but what wavelength ?', so thanks Swolf, for the link to the heelspurs pages.
Information overload hardly does it justice ! It's going to take me several days to digest.

Is there any more recent experience that forum members have, given the passage of time since the last post ?

As a newly diagnosed 'peyronies crony ', with previously acquired Duyputrens contraction and signed off as cured of prostate cancer (brachytherapy in 2008), I seem to have a genetic interest in collecting examples of fibrosis. Only got to get Ledderhose's disease and I've got the full set !

Greybeard

greybeard

UPDATE

Having had another talk with my GP, he has referred me to an Andrology clinic, so I'm now waiting for an appointment.
In the meantime, I've ordered 50 IR leds at 850nm and 50 red leds at 630nm, along the lines of the device described in the heelspurs link.
Total cost less than $5, so far. I'm planning to pot them in silicone rubber to make a flexible mat, but the details yet to be worked out. More anon.

As I have dupuytrens in my little finger on my left hand, as well as some thickening of the tendons in the right palm, I'll experiment on those before getting into more sensitive areas ! Quite a few variables - distance from the skin for a given power, length of time of each exposure, and frequency of treatments. If anyone has come across any relevant data/ideas on this, please share.

Grey

J. Rounds

Quote from: lagrasshopper on August 08, 2012, 11:42:12 AM
We live in the SW US. My husband was diagnosed a few years ago with Peyronies. He first noticed a hollow place at the base. Then he commented that his penis seemed fractured inside. Next was a shortening. Next came a corkscrewing. He was distressed. I am a body worker and owned a red LED Deep Penetrating Light (Infrared and LED) to help with nerve pain on my clients. He tried the light on his penis on a whim and within two weeks of daily tx, the corkscrewing of his penis relaxed and went away. The hollow place never filled in and the length never returned. His penis is thicker. Perhaps the Deep Penetrating Light from LED Technologies can play a roll in reversing recent damage from Peyronies? I did a search of this site and didn't see any info on DPL. We ordered it from Amazon. It looks like an open book on a stand. It cost around $300 I believe.  He has Dupuytren's contracture of his hands. The light helped his hands flatten as well. NASA has done studies of LED light helping healing in space and chemo side effects. I'm wondering if a red inexpensive LED flashlight could help with Peyronies?

I have tried massage techniques on his penis and hands, I don't think they helped.

Why you thought that in the first place. I know this does not help at all..

james1947

J. Rounds

It helps with pain for sure as it is used by many doctors and gym instructors to attenuate pain.
We don't have too many Peyronies results because we have limited number of people that tried out this therapy.
This tread is 6 pages long but during the time I read all the posts.

James
Age 71, Peyronies from Jan 2009 following penis fracture during sex. Severe ED.
Lost 2" length and a lot of girth. Late start, still VED, Cialis & Pentox helped. Prostate surgery 2014.
Got amazing support on the forum

Amitr

Heat kills sperm production.
The Effect of Heat on Sperm Production | Men's Health

Is there anything that ensures that no EMW reaches the balls? UV and higher energy rays can easily penetrate thin sheets that you might use to cover them.

LWillisjr

Which is why your testicles are located in your scrotum. To keep your sperm at a temperature they can survive. Even normal body temperature of 98.6 is enough to kill sperm.
Developed peyronies 2007 - 70 degree dorsal curve
Traction/MEDs/Injections/Surgery 2008 16 years Peyronies free now
My History

NeoV

I've always been a big fan of hyperthermia, in the form of a microwaveable rice pad/bag.

When I was living in Tokyo for the first time, I made one by simply pouring rice into a sock, and knotting the sock by the end.. Rice never actually spilled out and it lasted me over a year before I decided to throw it out. I've always seen improvements after using this method. Since starting Tranilast I've started using a heat pad again, one i bought that has rice in it. Every night I've been putting it on my penis for the last week, and already it seems to be helping along with manual stretching. My penis just looks fuller and straighter, and hinging is better than it ever has been, for which I am very thankful for.

If anyone is interested in making one, all it takes is a sock and rice. Then microwave it for 1.5 to 2 minutes and that's it. It's the easiest way to try out basic heat therapy besides a hot shower.  

Forester

@ NeoV

How long did you apply the heat pad on your penis for (per session)?

NeoV

Forester,

At least 20 minutes. It's hard to tell since I tend to fall asleep with it on at times. You can prevent it from losing heat quite well by putting any kind of blanket over it.


elro

i have been using a heat lamp recently for 2 days only around 30 mins, i can feel the scar tissue tingle and my dick even sits differently while im applying the heat, the tissue is expanding no doubt, my plan is to slowly add some stretches while applying heat, don't want to rush it and feel any more tearing  :(

DonaldNichols

Moderator: Quote from previous post removed. We discourage full quotes of a previous post as it is obvious your are replying to it.

Thanks for sharing your experience with the therapy.. I have never used it I will now apply it very soon.. Thanks again

elro

Moderator: Quote from previous post removed. We discourage full quotes of a previous post as it is obvious your are replying to it.

Good luck mate, im currently trying to make a shield to ensure i don't roast my polish sausage, i'm thinking maybe 3-4 inches of lead wrapped in something, what metals are good at shielding UV rays? i really have limited knowledge on this one  

Mentos

i sleep on an amythst infared biomat everynight. increadible healing tool I hope it helps!

Amitr

@Elro, or anyone trying variations of the hyperthermia technique out, please keep us updated with your developments frequently.

Also, please make sure that you don't fry your eggs.. the testicles like to stay at lower temperatures, and heat is like an instant sperm count killer.

james12

great, thank you for those useful information..  ;)

MattFoley

Recently I took a heating pad apart so I can easily wrap it around my penis for longer term hyperthermia. It works well but it's clumsy. At some point I'm going to redesign it so it will fit like a glove over the penis.

Got Testosterone?

MattFoley

Heating Pad Therapy

So here's what I've been doing:

First, I cut open a heating pad and throw away everything but the heating elements that are sewn to the fabric.

Second, I wrap the heating pad around my penis, avoiding my scrotum.

Third, I hold the heating pad in place with a "Cable Clamp". This is a product that you can buy from "Ace Hardware" or some of the other hardware stores or I think Wal-mart has it as well. You want to get the larger clamp. Buy two of them.

I put one clamp near the base of my penis and the other one near the glan (head). That does a good job of holding the pad in place.

Be careful not to make it too hot. I usually set it at the low setting.

Typically, I wear it for as long as possible. It maintains excellent blood flow, keeps the penis nice and spongy, and drives heat into the plaque. I find this an excellent thing to do in order to prep your penis for your VED therapy. In fact, I sometimes wrap the heating pad around the cylinder while I'm doing VED therapy.
Got Testosterone?

lavaking

Just wondering how many have had luck using hypothermia?
I started 4 weeks ago using a 250watt infrared light and heating the old man to 102-105, trying to stay close to the middle of that and not sure if I'm seeing results are not. The plaque does seem to be doing something though. Its almost like when it first began. Wondering if its going to go in reverse and straighten out.

Seems like this thread has been going for awhile and only 1 or 2 giving results to the positive. Just wondering if anyone else is trying this and whether or not its working?

pizzaman

I used to wrap a heating pad around my member daily for as long as I could. It definitely increased blood flow temporarily. It's hard to determine if had contributed to my long-term results, but more blood flow down there is a good thing.

UrsusMinor

Quote from: elro on July 23, 2013, 09:32:38 AM
i'm thinking maybe 3-4 inches of lead wrapped in something, what metals are good at shielding UV rays?

First of all, most heat lamps emit very little UV--generally less than a regular visible light bulb. (There are some speciality bulbs for reptiles that are designed to emit some UV as well, but you have to pay extra for that.

Sure, lead will keep UV out. Anything you don't sunburn through will keep UV out. It will also keep IR out...until the lead gets really hot!

NeoV

In my experience temporary positive results cause long term results in the end, and the longer you stay in that zone of temporary improvement, the better.

Especially with VED and traction. The moment you stop early on, it seems like you go back to 0, but if you just never let it go back to zero, and keep in a state of positive results from these treatments, those changes will become permanent. In my experience heat always helped my VED and stretching results. Now I hop in a hot shower twice a day, and I always feel better afterwards, particularly if I have to sit at work or in class. Heat, VED, and stretching always put me in a good place, and the results (from heat or not) are significant and are the product of small incremental changes over the period of two years.

As with bodybuilding, can I say with certainty that whey protein helped me achieve all the muscle I gained? How about creatine? I can't say anything about it, but given that the research is good, I say hell yeah it helped, and I'm gonna keep taking those things. Getting ripped took months and years of staying in a pumped up state (or leaning out state).

Peyronie's is definitely a different thing all together, but I say if it feels good and gives you any reduction in curvature temporary or not, that is simply amazing, and just as good as anything else we have.

I challenge all of you to stay home and stay in a state of reduced deformity for as long as possible. Use heat, light VED, light stretching, don't binge on masturbation. My improvement definitely came from hours at home with my penis out hanging off the edge of my chair! Literally almost every day it's the first thing I do. I get home, sit down and focus on my penis. My name "NeoV" actually comes from when I was in my darkest days one year ago, watching the Matrix trilogy and V for Vendetta stretching my penis for hours and hours a night!

UrsusMinor

"...stay in a state of reduced deformity for as long as possible." I like it!

I notice that one fellow earlier on this thread (Feb 2013)--who only posted twice on the forum--recommended running hot water over the penis while erect https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,915.msg44217.html#msg44217, and claimed the deformity decreased in real time.

I'm not sure I could get an erection in a really hot shower, but it's an interesting concept. What do you think?

melting

Its great.
I use a waterpump(bathmate) and fill it with hot water to the degree where I can barely be Ok with it. I only pump slihgtly without much pressure. I think you want to go over 40C* as thats the point where collagen gets more "formable".

I can go up to 43 degree rather comfortably.

I also put some vitamin c and acetyl l carnitine into the water in the hope it enters my dick.
After that I apply dmso with supps. I hope the scar tissue is then a bit softer and the supps can enter.

It feels good but it will take time.
Daily Transdermals and Traction/VED solved my Peyronies Disease https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,12587.0.html (DMSO+X)

UrsusMinor

Melting, very interesting! How long have you been doing this?  

melting

Since about two months but not as regular as needed. I think it has to be done daily. Every day until the tissue is remodeled/melted/gone.

I made progress. Im able to get erections and the plagues feel softer and maybe smaller.

I think the theory is sound but if not done daily its useless.
Daily Transdermals and Traction/VED solved my Peyronies Disease https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,12587.0.html (DMSO+X)

skunkworks

Hi Melting, what is the rationale behind vitamin c?
This is an emotionally destructive condition, we all have it, let's be nice to each other.

Review of current treatment options by Levine and Sherer]

melting

SKunkworks,
Vit. C is necessary for healthy collagen. In its absence unhealthy collagen forms = scars.
It is good vs. inflammation and fibrosis.

There is much literature about it if you search vit .c + above keywords.

I understand that hardened peyronies plagues have calcium deposited in it. This is a reason why a calcium blocker like verapamil is used.
This is an interesting article where a person "melted" calcium deposits with DMSO and vitamin C.
http://www.csom.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Melting-Calcium-Deposits-with-Transdermal-Dimethyl-SulfoxideAscorbic-Acid-Mixture-25.4.pdf

Vit c is just so basic that it gets overlooked easyily. We seem to search for a miracle supplement.
Vitamin C and Collagen

I think vitamin C should be a basic in peyronies treatment. Espacially topical.
It might make sense to combine it with MSM. The combination is said to form healthy collagen.
msm information (and more in google)
It also said to be easily soluable in hot water. Im in the process to aquire it and use it with the same protocol I use the acetyl carnitine in hot water pump.

Daily Transdermals and Traction/VED solved my Peyronies Disease https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,12587.0.html (DMSO+X)

skunkworks

Ok thanks for that melting, I'll look into it further.
This is an emotionally destructive condition, we all have it, let's be nice to each other.

Review of current treatment options by Levine and Sherer]

UrsusMinor

Interesting link, Melting!

Yeah, collagen is all about Vitamin C--plus the amino acids glycine and proline.

melting


Tunica albuginea (penis) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"
The tunica albuginea is the fibrous envelope of the corpora cavernosa penis. It consists of approximately 5% elastin, an extensible tissue that is primarily made up of the amino acids glycine, valine, alanine, and proline. The majority of the remaining tissue is collagen, which is made up of lysine, proline, glycine, alanine, and other amino acids.[1]"

Of course we want to have it as eleastic as possible which is the polar opposite of scar tissue.

So if the needed building blocks are not there we wont get good elastic collagen. So we need them. Everything that leads to healthy collagen should be there in case our body wants to produce healthy collagen.

Everything that leads to healthy collagen should be avilable in our bodys(preferably at the scene of Peyronies Disease)

Now to not go off topic... When having the tissue warmed up and maybe stretched we want the supps needed to build healthy collagen on site. Of course if the body thinks it needs to repair with scar tissue in the first place then its moot.
Thats why we want to prevent scar tissue or chronic "fibrotic" inflammation.

___________

Now interestingly
Radiofrequency: How it works, and rates of collagen synthesis - the right-handed triple helix - Elastin and Adipocytes
"During the heating, the elastin swells but is not dissolved: elastin is very abundant in the walls of the arteries and in tissues such as lung tissue which require great elasticity. "
(in relation to heating collagen)
Which means that this plays indeed in our hands when we try to heat it up as much as possible.(about 42 degreees celcius for me)

I just cant find anything about how scar tissue and fibrous plagues are affected in relation to normal collagen by heat.

___________
Anyway as with all other applications im sure this is needed to be done very regurly, at best all day until the scar tissue is totally soft and flexible so blood and nutrients/supps can enter into it..
Daily Transdermals and Traction/VED solved my Peyronies Disease https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,12587.0.html (DMSO+X)

UrsusMinor

The Wikipedia entry there is a little misleading in terms of the makeup of collagen, and it doesn't list the amino acids in the order of importance/frequency.

Collagen varies a bit--there are several types--but it is about 33% glycine and 17% proline.

There is also a lot of hydroxyproline, which is derived from proline (so requires even more proline) by an enzymatic process that requires Vitamin C as a co-factor. There is actually very little lysine, but a fair amount of hydroxylysine...which also needs Vitamin C.

As I understand it, the limiting factor is usually proline--unless there is a shortage of Vitamin C.

The info on elastin is very interesting. The radiofrequency stuff...I'll have to go think about that! Thanks!

LeeBee69

I plan on building a small device composed of a near infrared LED. Certain frequencies are shown to have great effects on healing (membranes), stimulating stem cells and reducing inflammation - as mentioned many times in this post. Biophysics is now showing that even mitochondria health can be improved this way, reducing both autophagy and mitophagy, we really are beings of light.

The LED I have is a fish tank 630nm LED with heat sink built in. At the right power level and therefore heat output it could be placed next the skin directly over the plaque. I've tried this and in the dark you can see the light penetrating deep into the penis. The tunica is thick however and if the plaque deep the photons may not make it there. If so an LED in the range of 830-860nms would penetrate deeper. This device will be powered by a couple of AAA batteries or perhaps 1. I have to work out the power/resistor value to get the correct heat output. This will be 100% localised, so no testicle heating and should be wearable under the trousers as it will be very small. My thought is the mechanical heat produced with help break the collagen bonds and the infra red reduce inflammation and promote cellular healing at the same time.

I also plan to use a PEMF device at the same time. Also shown at the correct frequencies to promote stem cell activity at the location used as well as increasing cellular energy. I've not seen PEMF mentioned on the forum.

I just need to get to it!

I realise much of the above has been said already in this post / forum, but I think the cheap wearable LED approach is new. Anyway if anyone of you good folk have any thoughts on the above please fire away!

Very best,
LeeBee

Gutted

Really interesting thanks LeeBee

You will have seen in other threads that many have gained substantial benefits from basic 'heatpacks' (used by skiers in their gloves etc) myself included.

So it will be very interesting to see whether this extra Photonic dimension you are adding takes the results to a new level.

Even if your device is not wearable, it's still an interesting treatment mode.

I know PEMF's sound like Sci-Fi but it has been demonstrated that they work on bone fractures that have not healed (closed) naturally. I'm not sure it is yet understood exactly why that is. But it works well enough for such units to be in use in the NHS !

I haven't heard or seen anything on PEMF effects on collagen/fibrosis though, or how/if there is a combination benefit with IR.

One thing you didn't mention is, what the proposed treatment regime/schedule would look like ??

Please keep us in the loop, cheers

skunkworks

LED for heating is interesting, could you post a picture of the LED you are modifying?

I recently got some carbon heater tape to build a wrap around heat pad, but the power consumption of carbon tape is really quite high, possibly too high to be feasible. LED might be a good option.
This is an emotionally destructive condition, we all have it, let's be nice to each other.

Review of current treatment options by Levine and Sherer]

LeeBee69

It's these:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=141679345010

Just checked the specs, I have the 640 - 660nm 3w. I wanted something around 650nm. The 1w might actually be more efficient for the heat output, i.e. less resistance required.

You cant see in this picture, however beneath the white plastic housing base is a metal heat sink.  

LeeBee69

And I see you are also in Oz SkunkW...I've got a load of these and will happily send you a few.

LeeBee69

Hey Gutted,

WRT to treatment routine, I thought I would start with an hour a day, but I haven't thought about this too much.

Here's a round up of studies on infrared and it's use in wound healing:
http://www.revitavet.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/MechanismsActionInfraredLightTissueHealing.pdf

A benefit for Peyronnie's is it increases nitric oxide and therefore blood flow and reduce inflammation. Other highlights include increasing healing by 25%-35%, and:

"The irradiation by infrared light triggers the natural repair mechanisms carried out by the body. Several of the mechanisms of action for light therapy that work to alleviate pain and inflammation also play an important role in tissue healing. Wound healing progresses through stages of inflammation, proliferation, remodeling and maturation. Light therapy has been demonstrated to impact each of these phases in beneficial ways."


skunkworks

Very generous of you LeeBee69 and I'll take you up on that if your finished product is something I'd also be able to put together (wouldn't want to waste your n/ir leds).

Great idea by the way. With the way treatments are at present, I think the most valuable time will be spent figuring out ways to deliver consistent heat more conveniently and paired with traction. Traction+heat simply blows away any other treatment option in my opinion, though I suppose if heated VED sessions were doable there is a good chance that would work well also.
This is an emotionally destructive condition, we all have it, let's be nice to each other.

Review of current treatment options by Levine and Sherer]

Gutted

Thanks LeeBee ..... I'll get myself on your Ebay link or look for something ready made in the 650nm range you suggest

skunkworks

Would near IR work through the transparent sides of a VED?
This is an emotionally destructive condition, we all have it, let's be nice to each other.

Review of current treatment options by Levine and Sherer]

james1947

If the VED is from glass, IR would not penetrate as glass acts as mirror, same as water.
Regarding plastics I don't know, but as a fact all the IR cameras have no plastic defending cover so maybe will not penetrate plastic also

James
Age 71, Peyronies from Jan 2009 following penis fracture during sex. Severe ED.
Lost 2" length and a lot of girth. Late start, still VED, Cialis & Pentox helped. Prostate surgery 2014.
Got amazing support on the forum

Cowboy James

I am considering trying this. Would putting a towel over the testicles help to protect them?  

Paolo

cowboy James, this is interesting.
Many types of lamps and bulbs used by some for light therapy (such as Incandescents, heat lamps, infrared lamps at 1000nm+) give off a significant amount of heat and therefore are NOT suitable for use on the testicles. I presume a towel would work in theory, or perhaps a small thin (manageable) piece of balsa wood could do the trick (cheap), wood being an excellent insulator if it could be secured/held.

I read (and was not aware), red light therapy directly on the testicles for short, regular periods would raise testosterone levels.

Red or infrared light from an LED source (600-950nm) can be safely applied to the testes without risk of side effects or damage, the mechanism that red wavelengths work is to stimulate ATP and therefore Testosterone levels.
Red/infrared wavelengths have been shown to boost testicular sperm production and viability of sperm.

Source is https://redlightman.com/blog/red-light-triples-testicle-health-function/

The above site also has a link below regarding red light and erectile dysfunction

also https://redlightman.com/blog/red-light-therapy-treats-erectile-dysfunction/

i have no affiliation with the above site and include it only as an information source  :)

I may consider a protocol using this in future to maintain Testosterone so thanks for raising this topic  :)
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.

LeeBee69

I'd probably go with a laser diode..they tend to be more common than LEDs in the IR range. LEDs may also be too diffuse through the glass. With a laser diode I would expect there to be some diffusion through the glass and you would then have a patch of light rather than a dot.

Cheers,
LeeBee

NeoV

While using the rice sock, I rarely feel as if my testicles are warming up.

Maybe they are, but I try not to put the sock near them much, even though I use it on the base of my penis.