oxidative stress_Peyronies Disease_Antioxidant Treatment

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Paolo

Guys, Just read this on PubMed reference therapeutic Implications for Antioxidant Treatment;

It states the inflammatory infiltrate cells produce high quantities of free radicals and proinflammatory and profibrotic cytokines, with consequent activation of transcription factor NF-κB.

Recent Pathophysiological Aspects of Peyronie's Disease: Role of Free Radicals, Rationale, and Therapeutic Implications for Antioxidant Treatment-L... - PubMed - NCBI

Vitamin E = Repairs DNA
CoQ10 = demonstrated significant positive results
L-Carnitine = inhibits proliferation and osteoblastic differentiation of fibroblasts
Pentox-Pentoxifylline = capacity to cause almost complete clearance of penile calcifications [83, 84].

Guys, read the full article and please chip in with any positives or conclusions  :)

Paolo  :)
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.

Tychy

Thanks for posting this. I have to print it and read it throughly, but the authors seem knowledgeable. Will update later.

Update:
VitE+CoQ10+ALCAR+Pentox+Propolis are the cocktail for active phase then. I will try to talk my doc into Pentox now. I think I'm going towards the stabilization phase, though the curvature stretch has flared another pain site.

I would throughly research liver interactions of all those supplements, though. There is a lot of enzymes involved and quercetin, for example, is a potent modifier in conversion of some metabolized drugs.  

Toronto34

This is a very interesting article, though I have not gone over it closely yet. It seems to give legitimacy to a lot of the treatments that have been recommended on this forum over the years.

I recently bought some Quercetin 500 mg (with Bromelain 100 mg) because I heard it was effective for treating CPPS. I have not started it yet (I am on enough stuff already) but it's interesting to see that Quercetin may be effective for Peyronies as well. The problem with all these supplements is they aren't easy on my stomach so I find I can't take them all at once or in the higher doses.

Paolo

Hi Toronto34, Glad you found the study of interest, I am still going through it line by line  :)

Quercetin must be 'cycled', it is tough on the kidneys, I suggest a break after 30 days of at least one Week. I take a lot of supplements myself but say if I take a micro dose of selenium (for example) I will take it only every other day.
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.

Tychy

Quercetin helped with my bowel sensitivity. Always take on empty stomach. Twice a day 250mg is favorable. And it did liver damage in mice, which it then healed itself. But the mice model is not really comparable. Paracetamol is doing worse most likely. I took it like 6 months without having problems with liver blood work. But then cycled for 1 month.

May take two weeks for effects to show, at least for prostate issues.  

Toronto34

Thanks for the Quercetin tips. I am cycling off some things at the end of this month so I will probably start it up come September. That way I will be able to tell if it helps or not and won't be putting too much strain on my system.

basebend

I'm more confused than ever after reading that study as to whether nitric oxide is beneficial or harmful to us...

Paolo

Without nitric oxide (NO) the smooth cavernosal muscle of the penis cannot relax, result ED, no erection  
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.

Paolo

Okay, so what interested me the most about this study is as follows;

1) Most peyronie suffers are Caucasian (white)

2) Considered to be genetically transmitted, although secondary to penile trauma

3) Penile pain 20-70% cases

4) Curvature 94% cases

5) Erectile dysfunction ED 32% cases

6) 3 stages of disease,  (1) Acute (2 weeks) (2) Inflammatory remodeling 12-18 Months,  (3) Stabilization phase thereafter

7) During the Inflammatory stage 2 tissue degradation, rapid growth of plaques also associated with pain and curvature, plaques consolidate becoming more fibrous until eventual calcification.

8 Plaque calcification in 15-25% cases.

9) Macrophages and Inflammatory cells responsible for production of elastase, which can cause degradation of Tunica Albuginea elastic fibers.

10) Protein NF-kB is present in nearly all cell types. Controls an enzyme iNOS in Peyronie's produced by macrophages, smooth muscle cells and myofibroblasts. An upregulation of iNOS produces localised high levels of Nitric Oxide (NO) and RNS (Reactive Nitrogen Species) which are free radicals like ROS (Reactive Oxygen Species) but cause far more damage.

11) Vitamin E (600mg) tocopherol improves endothelial function and can repair DNA, resulting in plaque, curve and pain reduction. FOR PEYRONIES MAKE SURE IT CONTAINS D-GAMMA, d-gamma helps with DAMAGING peroynitrite molecule which is prolific at onset peyronies.

12) ALC, Acetyl L-Carnitine resulted in 92% pain reduction, curvature decrease and plaque reduction, and has an antidepressant effect.

13) Pentox PTX was effective in stimulating fibroblast apoptosis, and  the capacity to cause almost complete clearance of penile cacification, dose 400mg x 3 daily for 6 Months.

14) CoQ10 helps with plaque reduction and curvature.

15) Propopolis helped penile curvature, 900mg daily for 6 months.

16) Bilberry (European Wild Blueberry) contain Anthocyanins react with (RNS) Reactive Nitrogen Species and reduce levels of NF-kB, TNF-a and MCP-1, which regulates migration and infiltration of monocytes-macrophages, bilberry also suppresses TGF-B collagen production.

17) Oxidative stress is an important factor in the possible onset of erectile dysfunction.

18) Here is the depressing bit, antioxidant treatment is effective only for stage 1 (acute) therefore a very narrow window exists for antioxidant effects to take place, just my opinion though is that they should benefit in stage 2 (Inflammatory-remodeling).

19) Regarding point 18 a 'wait 6 Months and see' approach is the worst possible thing to do!

20) Regarding point 19 then during the early discovery of penis trauma then we need to throw multiple combination therapies at this

Hope for some comments, good, bad, whatever  :)









Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.

LWillisjr

Quote from: Paolo on August 04, 2017, 10:54:32 AM
Without nitric oxide (NO) the smooth cavernosal muscle of the penis cannot relax, result ED, no erection

Paolo,
Yes and no. Erections are a very complicated process the release of NO and cGMP does help to relax the smooth muscle tissue and starts the erection process. The usual cause of ED is as we get older, our bodies release PDE5 too early (before climax) and PDE5 starts to break down cGMP too early. ED drugs are called PDE5 inhibitors because... well that is what they do. They block PDE5 from breaking down cGMP too early. That is why all the Viagra/Cialis warnings of "If you have an erection lasting more than 4 hours.... etc". It is because we eventually do need PDE5 to cause our erections to subside.
Developed peyronies 2007 - 70 degree dorsal curve
Traction/MEDs/Injections/Surgery 2008 16 years Peyronies free now
My History

NeoV

Thanks for the article and summary. We've known that ROS was a major player in Peyronies Disease for years now. I still greatly reject the genetic component. After researching it extensively, I firmly believe that the origin of Peyronie's is metabolic and mitochondrial dysfunction, which leads to ROS and fibrosis (multi organ and systemic damage), no different than cancer, diabetes, and heart disease. The question should not be how to treat ROS, but rather what's causing the ROS. Ever seen a monkey with Peyronie's? It's not possible, unless he lives near a fruit orchard and binges on fruit for decades.

Now, any damn antioxidant will ammeliorate the damage. Blueberries worked in a combination study and you can bet yourself that eggplant does too (due to the anthrocyanadins in the skin). But this will be merely the same as treating diabetes or cancer with antioxidants: inconsistent and partial.

The ALCAR study was not NEARLY as impressive as this article describes. It wasn't even double blind and was poorly controlled from what I gather. I do not doubt its efficiency, but I would instead pin its effect on its effect on mitochondria.

I still say it's best to remove excess glucose sources from the diet before taking supplements on top of an average diet. Average or even a "good" diet won't cut it, it has to be one designed to beat disease, as if you had been diagnosed with cancer. White Caucasians have the highest blood sugar and BMI in the world. It's metabolic, and yes you can be skinny and fit and have metabolic dysfunction. My father and grandfather don't have diagnosed diabetes, nor is their blood sugar particularly pre-diabetic by the world's (bad) standards, yet my dad has classic diabetes symptoms and my late grandfather had a multitude of them. Now I have all of them as well, despite having abs and having been on a classic bodybuilding diet with veggies and "healthy" whole grains. It isn't enough when you have metabolic dysfunction, you need to take extreme measures and eat nothing or radically cut out carbs. Cure your metabolic dysfunction or undiagnosed diabetes, and your Peyronie's will likely get better with it (as much as it can anyway). Once damage has been done, it's always going to be difficulty to reverse it. The majority of your average joes who even try fasting or ketosis will say "it didn't work," but what do you expect? Can fasting always cure cancer? Hell no, but it's the BARE MINIMUM of effort one should be doing. Sure, some diseases and cancers may not respond to this or that, but at the end of the day, it's the root cause we're hunting for.

I am very sure that a study on green tea and coffee would yield similar results. But this article does sure make Pentox look amazing doesn't it! As for propolis, I did try it for a while but not long enough. COQ10 has the most noticeable effect on my penis along with fasting / keto and an nutrient dense diet that is high in antioxidants.

Sorry to be redundant as always.




Paolo

Cancer needs glucose to thrive, when your blood sugar is high that is a green light for it spreading. Cancer risk can be reduced by cutting refined sugars, high fructose corn syrup (HFCS) and carbohydrates  :)
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.