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Author Topic: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.  (Read 3360 times)

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Christopher1

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Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« on: April 09, 2017, 02:55:09 AM »

Hi gentlemen,

I received shockwave therapy (6 sessions) from a urologist in Florida.

No improvements in Peyronies Disease or plaque size, but it did improve my erections. (I was also diagnosed with venous leak.)

Questions? Ask away.

skunkworks

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2017, 04:46:57 AM »

Do you plan on getting your venous leak rechecked now that you've had the course of shockwave therapy?

Christopher1

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2017, 01:08:34 PM »

Probably not.

I think I might get some PRP injections as well.

Thing is - urologists agree that having some venous leakage is normal. Most people have some venous leakage. It is just that the INFLOW is greater than the OUTFLOW, giving you a healthy erection.

I'd say try it. It worked for me. I am not rich, so the urologist did 6 sessions for $500. Very nice of him.

james1947

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2017, 07:24:40 PM »

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Christopher1

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2017, 01:56:12 AM »

Success with respect to what? ED or Peyronies Disease?

james1947

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2017, 02:31:51 AM »

You have the answer in the links I posted

James
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projectpd

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2017, 02:26:40 PM »

Chris,
do you have any details of the energy per sq mm used per pulse and number of pulses per session? (or alternatively the length of session and the pulse frequency)
and what machine was it ?
did you get any bruising or negative effects after each session that needed time to recover from?
I'm wondering what were the constraints to increasing the number of sessions or pulses, (besides the cost)
thanks
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Christopher1

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2017, 11:13:54 PM »

I do not know how many shocks per session - unfortunately - or any other metrics.

Mild bruising. Very mild. Gone within a day.

My urologist says you need to wait a couple of months after your 6 sessions. New blood vessels will grow. This takes time.

I do not know if 6 more sessions after that is recommended.

projectpd

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2017, 09:00:54 AM »

sorry I forgot to say thanks for that info Chris .
very interesting. If I try it I'll post here.
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Christopher1

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2017, 09:49:50 PM »

Anytime.

popopo

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2017, 10:18:48 AM »

This seems interesting, any new information Christopher1?
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james1947

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2017, 02:47:10 PM »

I found where to make this therapy in the place I am living.
* $300 for consultation with the doctor
* $3,000 for each session, the doctor don't know how many sessions will be necessary to see some results 8)
So I will skip on the treatment for now :)

James
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Tychy

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2017, 04:11:10 PM »

I will try to get manufacturer and settings when my sessions start next week.

@james: I really pity you people over there. It's just so unfair. Here it's like visit is free and session should be around 80-100€.  :-[
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Christopher1

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2017, 06:46:56 PM »

James - he is trying to scam you.

Sessions last about 5 minutes.

Christopher1

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2017, 06:48:13 PM »

80 euros is cheap! Wow!

james1947

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2017, 11:27:40 PM »

Yes I know they try to scam me :)
It is a known local institute, for people that will spend money without thinking :)
I made in the past PRP with an other institute for $100 :)

James
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Christopher1

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2017, 05:58:58 PM »

PRP for $100?

Wow. Very cheap.

Willywonka

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2017, 10:24:13 AM »

I've just finished 6 sessions of shockwave treatment, not for the Peyronies, but to improve quality of the erection after Xiapex treatment. Too soon to decide on success, but anecdotally so far there seems to be an improvement. Cost £1750 (St Peter's Andrology, London) for the 6, but you're supposed to wait 3 weeks and have another 6 for the full course. Machine is an ED1000 (lots of info on Google if you want), low intensity, but increasing with the last treatment. They do four sites: upper, middle and lower across both cavernosa, and one each on the root. I think it's 1500 shocks per site, and it takes about 20 minutes for a single treatment. A very pleasant and chatty Italian urologist administered the treatment, by name of Giovanni Chiriaco. No pain, no bruising. You can feel the thump going through the one cavernosa to the other though.
WW
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Christopher1

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2017, 07:08:15 PM »

Excellent!

Sahara

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2017, 06:21:05 PM »

[Full quote removed - Use Reply instead of Quote] - Admin

Any update on this? I'm from London and recently found out about that place which has gotten me pretty excited. I just found their website. Is it definitely a legit place that has a history of producing positive results though?

Have you noticed improvements since the shock therapy?

I'm not sure I have peyronies but my erections have been much worse for about 7-8 months now. I can still get the same length but I've lost about 0.5-1 inch in girth (depending on the day and when it was I last masturbated). Wondering if it's a venous leak and I heard that place deals with that too. The unique thing about my case seems to be the girth loss... but no length loss. It's really bizarre. Can't find anything else online quite like it.

But yeah, if you could answer my questions ASAP that'd be great : )
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Tychy

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2017, 04:41:24 PM »

Well, I've already have an improvement about like 20% longer erection duration with more stability. But now I've got a CPPS flare up and can't test at the moment. Last treatment was Thursday, now 6 weeks of waiting time to see further improvement.
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Sahara

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2017, 05:31:29 PM »

I was talking to WillyWonka but the quote was deleted from my post for some reason.

[Simply read the forum rules. On this forum we don't allow full prior quotes unless you edit down to the relevant part of the quote.]
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Willywonka

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2017, 09:00:44 AM »

Sahara, sorry to reply so late; I'm not on the forum that much.

Yes, I can say there is a moderate but definite improvement after the shockwave treatment. I'm talking of course about quality of erection. They don't advise the treatment for peyronies itself. I can also see why the full treatment is another 3 weeks worth. I'm not in London, so I would have to get here two days a weeks for three weeks, which is difficult. But anytime I can make it, I'll be back for more.

I have found St Peters to be very professional, and the senior people are leading Andrologists in Europe.
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Christopher1

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2017, 12:10:21 PM »

Excellent.

suicidecomingsoon

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2017, 08:38:05 PM »

Whats the meaning of moderate improvement ?
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skunkworks

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2017, 07:48:26 AM »

Are there any conditions/situations where shockwave therapy could conceivably make things worse?

Christopher1

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2017, 12:48:49 PM »

Highly, highly unlikely.

I doubt it will make Peyronies Disease much better. It is good for venous leaks though.

Jed

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2017, 02:55:45 PM »

Christopher1 where in Florida did you go and how much was the PRP ?
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Christopher1

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2017, 03:51:32 PM »

I went to a doc in Broward County. PM me for details.

And it is shockwave therapy - not PRP.

Willywonka

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2017, 02:46:53 AM »

"Whats the meaning of moderate improvement ?"
Indeed. Not have a ready metric, it's difficult to convey. Say on a scale of 1-10, 10 being a full erection, I was around 4 and now a 6 based on a natural erection (no oral or injected assistance).
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Newbern

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2017, 12:14:42 PM »

This is my first post here. I have tried several treatments such as enzymes and Vit. E. What I came here for is to get some suggestions from posters. ESWT is an excellent suggestion - thank you

After reading several articles on low intensity ESWT I am looking forward to trying this modality. My plans are to purchase an ESWT device. I suspect I will get a SW9 for around $2K.

The States are way behind many areas of the world with ESWT. I likely will purchase the SW9 from China. These devices are sold under the guise of health and beauty aid to circumvent the FDA during importation.

Here in Nashville, TN only chiropractors would consider the use of ESWT. I plan on using the device for trigger points as well.
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Christopher1

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2017, 08:04:18 PM »

Very interesting.

Where do you purchase the SW9?

projectpd

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2017, 07:18:05 AM »

Christopher1, are you aware of the below study ?

https://f1000.com/prime/718052469

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projectpd

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2017, 12:33:28 PM »

skunkworks, newbern - this is an excerpt from the study ,

Penile deviation was not reduced by ESWT (P=0.66) but worsened in 20/50 (40%) and 12/49 (24.5%) patients of the ESWT and placebo-group, respectively (P=0.133). Plaque size reduction was not different between the two groups (P=0.33). Additional, plaque size increased in five patients (10.9%) of the ESWT group only. An improvement in sexual function could not be verified (P=0.126, RR=0.46).

the author also said : In fact, ESWT should not be offered to Peyronies Disease patients any more. We now have the evidence to not recommend this treatment to our patients. However, there is only one exception: when there is predominant pain that affects quality of life of the individual. In these cases the patients have to be informed that deviation may worsen after ESWT.

the full text is not available free. it was commented on it, in a more positive study (Chung), that it was possible that inappropriate energy flow was used, but he didn't offer any actual information about that. 

if you did buy /use the machine please do post about your experiences. The cheapest machines I've seen are $1.3K + shipping
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Tsanchez12369

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2017, 01:24:36 PM »

This info from projectpd seems crucial, can it be highlighted or made sticky here?
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Christopher1

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2017, 10:22:01 PM »

I cannot open the study. : (

projectpd

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2017, 06:31:26 AM »

skunkworks that's much appreciated.   

I think there is some more information revealed in this we could take into account.
Considering Chung's comment about the energy flow: there was a somewhat higher energy density in the Hatzichristodoulou study .29mJ/mm , vs .25mJ/mm in the Chung study.

It was a different lithotriptor model/manufacturer used :reading the manufacturer statements about them, both the energy density and also the focus can be adjusted, but the studies do not give information about if/ how the device was focused on the plaque.

In Chung's study (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4643174/)
"No petechial bruising, dysuria or urethral bleeding was observed." , but in Hatzichristodoulou's study, "local petechial bleeding was observed in 247/306 sessions (80.7%)" .
That's a lot of sessions - with only the 51 patients, it would be a fair bet it affected more than 80.7% of the patients too (ie. in at least 1  session) .  Therefore I wonder if possibly the particular energy level, and/or focus settings, (or some other difference in the machines)  were too damaging for most patients in Hatz's study.

In the Hatz' study, the mean deviation did still improve by 9 degrees with the treatment , even though it was a smaller number that improved than worsened. Therefore it seems as if the average worsening must have been a smaller amount than the average improvement. 

The Hatz study states that a 4 degree improvement is not clinically meaningful, but then only a small number of sessions are done in each study.  eg 6 sessions in the H study.  There seems no data or suggestion made that further sessions would have no further effect. If comparing it to the effect of the same number of traction or ved sessions , an improvement by that amount should still be quite impressive, and especially if it could be continued.

If we do try a machine it might be wise to keep the energy low, understand about the focusing, and monitor for the petechial bleeding, and not expect rapid results.





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Tychy

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2017, 03:11:39 AM »

So i saw a picture of the device in question and it seems to produce very focused beams. This may be the problem.

The device used in my therapy has a flat contact surface and will send unfocused (or semi-focused) waves through the tissues. Focusing those would be crazy. I can see this working for tendons, but not for Peyronie's without damage.

Also their setup seems prefer on using the device statically above a certain position, whereas my therapy included moving it all over the penis, while applying somewhat more attention to the plaque areas.
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projectpd

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2017, 03:01:44 PM »

they are interesting points Tychy.  All the studies I read that mention it, say that focused waves were used, including ones that were positive, but don't say , if anything , more than that ultrasound and palpation was used to identify the target.
Your therapy was the linear focus adaptor, so out of the 3 options, that should be much less focused on a given point than the first adaptor, but not as unfocussed as planar.
There are several ways of generating ESWT and there is also a different form of ESWT,   RSWT (radial shockwave therapy ) that is unfocused, I couldn't find any studies on.
of course we wouldn't want to be focusing so much energy that it effectively inflicts enough new damage to set off new Peyronies all over again, which may be what is happening.
Mine was caused by trauma, but nothing enough to cause any visible bleeding, so something that does do that, would be concerning.




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Tychy

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2017, 01:43:11 AM »

.
Mine was caused by trauma, but nothing enough to cause any visible bleeding, so something that does do that, would be concerning.
Same for me. Cowgirl crushdown.

The head used in my therapy is the middle one: http://elvation.de/images/stories/produkte/PW2/Triple%20TQ-web-PW2.jpg
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Christopher1

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Re: Shockwave Therapy - I received it. Ask me anything.
« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2017, 09:57:50 PM »

That sounds painful!

Cowgirl crushdown? Wow.
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