What's the truth about pumping, jelqing and stretching?

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popopo

Hi guys, I wanna know the true about jelqing VED and stretching. So far I never have been able to do any of these without injuring myself. I actually have peyronies because of doing these exercises, but I know people who have gained. I also see that a lot of members here get back some size by doing pumping/stretching.

In short, it seems doing too little nothing happens, doing too much you will shrink and doing just the right amount of exercises will make you grow. It's not that simple, but still.. it's weird to think it can go both ways and some guys injure easier than others.

I wanna know how and why? Are these guys that do "penis enlargement" and gain deluding themselves or are they really makeing gains? And do they actually develop scar tissue too or does it actually lessen scar tissue if you do it correctly.

I'm confused and would like to know what EXACTLY happens in the penis. Why is something that can hurt you and cause scar tissue also used to stretch/break up scar tissue? And is this all mostly genetics, or is it in the way you approach this? I'd like to hear some opinions.
Age: 25
Date of onset: 17
Symptoms: sharp pains, numbness, change in shape/size, hourglassing and discolaration from jelqing/VED usage as a teen. Diagnosed with a venous leak and possible scarring.
Treatments tried: cialis, pentox and VED didnt help

james1947

popopo

I am expressing my opinion and what I know from my own experience and from reading the forum
* Jelqing bring us here many new members.  
* VED helped me to gain back some length and girth, doing it carefully
* I don't believe in enlarging the penis using VED or traction. It may give you lost lost length/girth, will not give you more than the original length
Penis enlargement is a big money maker. I wish I was investing in it when I had money 8)

James
Age 71, Peyronies from Jan 2009 following penis fracture during sex. Severe ED.
Lost 2" length and a lot of girth. Late start, still VED, Cialis & Pentox helped. Prostate surgery 2014.
Got amazing support on the forum

popopo

Probably, but do you think these forums and the people on it who claim gains are all fake? I always wondered aboutit since so many guys nowadays do it and if we can use VED/stretching and gain (back) size and "healthy" guys can too then maybe it's more than just stretching the scar tissue. I don't know, but I'm curious.
Age: 25
Date of onset: 17
Symptoms: sharp pains, numbness, change in shape/size, hourglassing and discolaration from jelqing/VED usage as a teen. Diagnosed with a venous leak and possible scarring.
Treatments tried: cialis, pentox and VED didnt help

skunkworks

Traction can enlarge your penis. I am longer now than I was before injury, so I know it can.

This is an emotionally destructive condition, we all have it, let's be nice to each other.

Review of current treatment options by Levine and Sherer]

Paolo

Can anyone explain how traction helps girth, length with traction seems obvious, but isn't that at the expense of girth?  :-\
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.

popopo

What I heard is thst traction stretches the ligaments makeing your "inner penis" come out more. Not sure if thats all it does though.
Age: 25
Date of onset: 17
Symptoms: sharp pains, numbness, change in shape/size, hourglassing and discolaration from jelqing/VED usage as a teen. Diagnosed with a venous leak and possible scarring.
Treatments tried: cialis, pentox and VED didnt help

skunkworks

I doubt it stretches the ligaments at all. How traction works is not exactly known, but it does work.

It could work by stretching and reshaping the collagen in scar tissue.

It could work by stimulating smooth muscle cell growth - Mechanical Stretching Stimulates Smooth Muscle Cell Growth, Nuclear Protein Import, and Nuclear Pore Expression through Mitogen-activated Protein Kinase Activation

It could work by reducing fibrosis and the cytokines that cause fibrosis - http://www.jurology.com/article/S0022-5347(16)02769-5/abstract   (super interesting study found by Arabia)

It could be all three, it could be none, it could be all three and some other things we don't know about.

Oh I nearly forgot this one - stretching decreases soluble TGF-β1 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3065715/
This is an emotionally destructive condition, we all have it, let's be nice to each other.

Review of current treatment options by Levine and Sherer]

Sir Bando

Note From Staff - Jelqing is extremely dangerous for anyone with Peyronie's symptoms.

I spent enough time in some of the PE forums to believe that it's possible to add both girth and length. There are just too many guys who spent way too much time posting (without commercial gain) and have some anecdotal "proof" (their own measurments, photos) so I don't think it's all a hoax. If you look at some porn you can see evidence of a certain type of length increase. Hanging weights partially detaches the top ligaments, which lowers the place where the penis projects out of the body. You can see this when it appears that a guy's dick is protruding from between his balls. Actually at first glance it may look as if his balls are riding up high. Sometimes you can see the suspensory ligament where the body meets the top of his penis. Once you know what to look for, you see it all the time. If you see it all the time, that means lots of porn guys are doing it, which means it works. To me that's a bit extreme, I'm not going for that.

Other ways of gaining length, meaning to just make the actual size of the penis longer, is a bit tougher. The main limiting factor, according to their theories and discussions, would be the part in the center, connected to the tunica albuginea up the center between the two corpus cavernosa, it's called the septum. Almost all other tissues and structures are somewhat able to "grow" except that part. Well, if you get everything except the septum to grow you can still get some length when the soft tissue between the tip of the glans and the end of the septum are caused to grow. But then of course you're not getting the length of the main body of the penis to stretch in a significant way.

If you're up for hanging weights and having your penis grow out of of the bottom of your ball sac you can get an inch or two of length with relative certainty. Short of that, maybe you can get up to an inch without affecting the septum or suspensory ligs. That type of length comes from jelqing, which I feel is very safe, reasonable and healthy when done correctly. There are many risks, so you really need to inform yourself, heed the warnings, go slow, be patient, be smart. But jelqing can be done safely.

After all that, they say it's tougher to get girth gains. It's relatively new information that things like traction and hanging can cause girth. It seems counterintuitive and I heard a credible explanation that I wouldn't be able to give justice to. I can almost imagine it in my mind but I really cant explain. Maybe this would help. Imagine a narrow balloon with fairly rigid rubber, so when you blow it up it will be long and narrow. Now imagine that you spend a lot of time continually stretching it, but only lengthwise. You begin to loosen up the overall rigidity of the rubber. So now when you blow it up, it is more stretchy so it grows outward, girthy, more than it had before. Now here's the harder part but if you imagine that the molecules of the rubber represent collagen in the tunica, and they all line up in a very consistent way, you get the outward stretch during inflation and when new collagen cells coming in to grow in between the stretched cells but in a way that adds to girth. Or, maybe after being stretched lengthwise the collagen tunica is stressed, thinner, more pliable, but then during rest and more so during erections, new collagen forms in a way that makes the stretched out balloon wider and not longer. Although maybe it could grow longer if not limited by the tough tunica and tougher septum.

I think this is why so many cases of Peyronies Disease are caused by PE gone bad. Most of the tissues are either flexible, or just don't injure easily when stressed. But it's something about the stubborn tunica that doesn't want to stretch that gets injured.

In any case, counterintuitive or not, many PE success stories claim that pulling lengthwise can lead to girth gains. So I'll just take their word for it.

Note From Staff - Jelqing is extremely dangerous for anyone with Peyronie's symptoms.

Tychy

Thanks Bando for the lengthy explanation.
When you length stretch tissue it may expand lengthwise, but if it gets filled with blood the total expansion will be sphere-like, because that's the physical most efficient way of pressure distribution.

We know we can stretch tendons and skin (collagen) in a way it won't get destroyed. The tunica just may be very sensitive to injury. Say you would attach a 200g weight and have that 24/7 10 years on your penis, you would have length gains without injury (hypothetically and simplified).

I'm leaning in for smooth muscle cell growth stimulation, but I'm no major in biology :D

Paolo

Quote from: Sir Bando on June 29, 2017, 03:19:38 AM
That type of length comes from jelqing, which I feel is very safe, reasonable and healthy when done correctly. There are many risks, so you really need to inform yourself, heed the warnings, go slow, be patient, be smart. But jelqing can be done safely.

If jelqing was safe we would all be doing it, seems very risky, you are putting pressures (uneven) along the entire penis shaft, think about that. During normal vaginal sex your penis doesn't get anywhere near these kind of pressures, it's just too risky IMO.
I also think the tunica albuginea weakens with age, young guys might get away injury free from jelqing but in my opinion the risk increases exponentially with each passing year.

Guys, please, please be careful, I have had improvements with manual stretching in reducing my dorsal curve but it requires time and a mind-set that focuses on total relaxation and privacy.
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.

lessor

There are several jelqing injured in FT, and their injuries are so severe that they end up in penile implant, do not do jelqing is the biggest crap there is

NeoV

Therapeutic traction and VED are 100% serious, medically approved, and scientifically studied physical therapies for Peyronie's and penile health. Jelqing is NOT, and penile enlargement, whether it works or not, is a whole different topic. The low level of scientific scrutiny and pure bro science of some of the guys on those forums just makes me want to cry. I won't discredit it, since I also am larger than before it seems, but just be warned and be careful! Jelqing seems like it's very dangerous.

skunkworks

Problem with jelqing is that it is safe for some if done properly, but for those of us who are susceptible to Peyronie's, it is massively dangerous. And you don't find out if you are susceptible to Peyronie's until you get Peyronie's...
This is an emotionally destructive condition, we all have it, let's be nice to each other.

Review of current treatment options by Levine and Sherer]

james1947

Sir Bando

Your posts are dangerous and it seems to me you want to harm people!!!
I hope the Administrator will take some action!!!

James
Age 71, Peyronies from Jan 2009 following penis fracture during sex. Severe ED.
Lost 2" length and a lot of girth. Late start, still VED, Cialis & Pentox helped. Prostate surgery 2014.
Got amazing support on the forum

Sir Bando

Jelqing is extremely dangerous for anyone with Peyronie's symptoms.

My original post defending PE should have been clarified as defending PE as a legitimate course for men starting out with a healthy penis, starting out with zero injury, starting out with zero complicating conditions, starting out with generally robust health. I didn't mean to recommend it to anyone and everyone. The previous posts were skeptical about PE having any legitimacy at all, so I was referring to PE generally.

Jelqing, as commonly understood in the PE world, is certainly not recommended for someone that already has any sort of health concern, primarily Peyronies Disease.

We may have different ideas about what jelqing is. I actually have Peyronies Disease, I jelq, my condition is not getting worse. I don't know what others do when they jelq, but the way I do it is fine for me. The overly-cautious Xiaflex website version of "shaping" could be considered as a step milder than the mildest jelqing. Mild stroking to achieve an erection could be considered an extremely mild version of jelqing. I still stand by the idea - with disclaimers and warnings - that some men may benefit from jelqing during the course of treating Peyronies Disease

Here are the cautions that go with responsible jelqing.

- FIRST AND FOREMOST PAIN IS BAD, PAIN IS NEVER GOOD. This is not the realm of "no pain no gain."

- Start gentle, build gradually. Like increasing strength slowly over months. I read a story about a guy who earned his black belt in karate, and as his instructor put it on him the instructor said, "Now you are prepared to begin learning." In PE you have to spend months conditioning the penis so that you can qualify to spend months doing the exercises in a way that cannot cause gains so that you can then begin to build the intensity where gains could occur. Even then you ramp up slowly.

- Learn about and be aware of physical indicators, or PI's. There are sensations that may not seem painful but could be bad, so be informed. Most men who make good progress speak of feeling nothing or practically nothing, or else feeling very positive sensations. There's this zone you get into where it just feels right, you feel invigorated. This is not something you move through, increasing intensity until you are on the verge of discomfort. Know the PIs.

- Proper technique. This is harder than most guys expect. I simply cannot do it the way it's usually described, with the alternating of the hands, the OK grip, etc. I have a modified version that works for me. Do not break rules such as the prohibition against jelqing when fully erect; I know what it's like to jelq good and start to get a full erection and it feels fantastic and you may get an urge to keep going. No, back off, let it soften up before resuming. I've worked very hard with intense concentration on form. The sort of strength and coordination for jelqing does not come natural to me. Practice, focus, concentration, being sensitive to all feelings and PIs, every aspect of even pressure, position, timing, etc. I put as much practice and concentration into the technique as top golfers put into their golf swing.

- Lowest possible intensity, yet enough to make progress. This is a balancing act to be sure. You simply have to be OK knowing that you will commit several hours per week for several weeks, and weeks turning into months, all the time knowing that at the end of half a year it's possible you haven't done a thing that could possibly give you results in terms of permanent gains. But at the same time you don't want to be wasting too much time, the point is to eventually make a difference.

--- side note on intensity --- there's been more than one reference to jelqing being more strenuous than vaginal intercourse. That should only be true for someone that's very advanced, has been at it for over a year, and has proven results and lacking any sort of significant injury. I've seen some pretty intense things with heavy weights, squeezing the dick between two boards, serious twisting and whipping it around, etc. Many of the guys doing those things don't injure themselves because they developed over years. I have no interest in any of that. I'm not trying to double my size, or even increase by 50%, etc. The intensity level of jelqing I'm doing is less vigorous than rough intercourse. Have you ever had a woman who keeps saying, "harder... harder... harder..." until you're slamming almost hard as you can, and then you survive without injury. Or if a woman is on top and kinda going at it. Yes there's the danger of broken penis but it's rare and even then the jelqing is less than that. My most intense jelqing is less vigorous than intercourse that's within the range of normal and safe.

- Wisdom. Listen to your body. Have good instincts. Trust your gut. DO NOT HAVE ARTIFICIALLY CONTRIVED GOALS. Be realistic about your own physiology. How many guys have hurt themselves lifting heavy weights because they are determined to get huge and ripped. As we get older we realize some men are just not cut out to get super bulky, no matter how hard they work at it. All can be fit and healthy but some bodies are designed to be lean, or have more endurance than brut strength. Similar advice for supplements and nutrition, you have to find what works for you which is different from one person to the next

Of course men who have Peyronies Disease should be much more cautious about jelqing than men without. If your doctor recommends "shaping" exercises, you have to decide if his advice is good, or if you should not do them, or maybe do a gentler version than he recommends or if he's being overcautious and you can do a bit over his recommendation.

In years past when I was half-heartedly doing PE I worked up to being moderately aggressive with the jelqing. And right around the time I may have begun to make progress I lost motivation, got distracted, took too long of a break, and didn't really make gains. I improved general penis health, erection quality etc so it wasn't a total waste. The point is I was doing strong, firm, effective jelqing without any negative consequences.

The jelqing I speak about in this forum is much less than that level of jelqing, yet a bit more than the shaping exercises recommended on the Xiaflex website. Each man needs to determine his own place on that spectrum, or to not be on it at all.

As I already mentioned in another post, I believe the injury that led to my Peyronies Disease stemmed from inappropriate use of a VED. True it wasn't medically approved, and I over did it. I didn't do a gradual build up of conditioning. If I had been using a better quality, medically approved VED in the same way I very likely would have still injured myself, maybe not as bad but it was my misuse of a device not the device itself.

I've recently started using a "medically approved" traction device and quickly learned there's potential to hurt if I'm not careful with that, too.

The horror stories about some of the Peyronies Disease treatments seem worse than a jelqing injury that leads to Peyronies Disease, far riskier than anything I'm currently doing or discussing here.

Hey you know what? Bottom line is the results. The supplements I took during my Verapamil injections led to the greatest reduction in plaque size that my urologist had ever seen. Of course he would deny it had anything to do with the supplements, you can decide for yourself. The heat and shaping I did for a couple months after Verapamil led to, well, not really noticeable improvement more than the verapamil but my condition didn't worsen. And that shaping and warming gradually increased until it was on the verge of being the gentlest possible entry into pre-PE conditioning; which a couple months later developed into a solid, yet gentlest possible version of a bonafide PE conditioning routine; at which time I started with a VED.

After a week of very gentle (practically useless level of) VED I sorta accidentally on purpose tried out a strength that I wasn't ready for. I think I was at about 75% of the pump's capacity. I knew it was too much, it didn't feel great, and then my slippery hands failed to open it as fast as I wished. Dang that sucked. No permanent harm done, just a moment of discomfort. Now, a couple months later, I can use that pump at 95% strength for over just over 5 minutes at time and it feels fantastic, all positive PIs and no negative effects. It's hard to know for sure but I do give a fair amount of credit for my girth gains to the pump more than the jelqing. I think for me the jelqing just massages, stretches and loosens up all the inner tissues so the action of the pump can penetrate and affect deeper. The change is most noticeable along the corpus spongiosum.

I'll finish where I started. I'm not sure what is the intensity and technique of jelqing that carries such danger. Whatever that is, that just means it's being done incorrectly. I think most of the guys who caused their own Peyronies Disease with some sort of PE very certainly didn't heed the cautions. It's very easy to fall into one of the various temptations to push too hard, too fast. I thought I was staying in a safe zone years ago when I was playing with a pump. At the time I was seeing a woman who was a real size queen. Our sex was fine as it was but when I discovered the girth I got from massive lymph build up I just couldn't resist doing it a handful of times. I remember more than once keeping my dick in the tube at near max pressure for over 20 minutes. I wouldn't discredit all pump usage based on my experience.

I was actually surprised, as I spent hours reading around this site, at how much positive talk there is about VED and traction. When I discovered this forum I was contemplating those two things but I thought I would meet resistance here for those two techniques. I'm very pleasantly surprised and encouraged that so many men feel they've benefited. I hope it goes without saying that I will proceed with extreme caution with those devices, or with Xiaflex or pretty much anything I do. I'm done with size queens and extreme pounding sex. Just nice gentle vanilla if anything at all. Hippocratic oath and all that.

Ok truly last point. Right now the purpose of the jelqing, pumping, traction, shaping, heat and massage I'm doing now is to prepare for Xiaflex. 6 months ago I could barely do 3 sets of 100 gentle jelqs, now I'm up to 3 sets of 300 moderately firm jelqs. As I mentioned about the pump I've advanced what I can handle. I'm transitioning from a gentle all day stretcher to a medically approved traction device. All that plus kegels and lots of supplements have my penis in the best possible health, strength, toughness, with the best possible erection quality, blood flow and collagen building ability that I can achieve. All to make the maximum use of the period of time during Xiaflex. Right now my curve seems worse but it's because all the parts not affected by the plaque are straining to be big, plump, firm and ready to grow. Once that scar tissue breaks down the least little bit I'm hoping for the best possible healing, better than if I had done none of this and just let the doctors do all the work they can with shots and meds

Sir Bando

Quote from: NeoV on June 29, 2017, 09:15:51 PM
Therapeutic traction and VED are 100% serious, medically approved, and scientifically studied physical therapies for Peyronie's and penile health. Jelqing is NOT...

Jelqing is so subjective and difficult to measure that "bro science" is about all that could ever be said about it as there never will be any research on it. And there's no commercial gain to be made off of promoting the efficacy of jelqing so there won't be anyone advocating jelqing to medical trade groups or government agencies such as the FDA or patent office. I wouldn't always automatically put too much stock in "medically approved" or "FDA approved." There's a real difference between correctly interpreting legitimate research and accepting the approval of professional organizations or the government. The politics cannot be denied. If a product has market dominance they can lobby trade groups and government regulators to accept research and standards that strengthen that product's reputation as compared to its competitors.

I'm not saying I read into your message that lobby groups and the government have the final word on what's safe or recommended. But I know there are some people who feel that way. The criteria I use to evaluate the efficacy of a product is a blend of common sense, reliable scientific data, accurate analysis of trusted sources, anecdotal evidence and user reviews, etc. FDA and other government agencies, AMA or Urological Society or whatever trade groups that are out there don't even make the list. I'll look at what they have to say with interest but they have virtually no impact on the development of my opinions.

Paolo

Sir Bando, That is a much more detailed post, guess members here have to way up there own condition and make an informed decision on jelqing benefits/disadvantages.

I wish you good luck with the Xiaflex treatment, please post results having done so  :)
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.

LWillisjr

This topic is causing some concern among forum members including myself. I respect that everyone has their opinions and we want people to be able to express them freely. Some of the early Peyronies sites were actually modifying posts that users were making. The founders of this forum pride themselves that we do not moderate that way.

We also try to protect our members from scams and profiteers and is why we so closely moderate potential spammers, don't allow posting of unapproved commercial links, etc.

That being said, for these reasons I am not going to change/delete of these posts as I realize there are honorable intentions behind information sharing. While it may be possible that a few people may feel jelqing is OK, it is the overwhelming opinion of long time members on this site that anyone who jelqs is at HIGH risk to causing harm and/or injury to themselves. Causing injury is only a matter of time and we do not encourage it under any circumstances.

I apologize if anyone feels this is a short sited view. So while I will leave this thread for information purposes, I have moved this to the off topic area, I am locking it from further discussion, and will closely watch for any additional new posts on the topic.

Feel free to send me a PM.

Les
Developed peyronies 2007 - 70 degree dorsal curve
Traction/MEDs/Injections/Surgery 2008 16 years Peyronies free now
My History