2 Warnings & Research about Peyronie’s & the Priapus Shot(R) procedure.

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DrRunels

Hello

Though I usually avoid the forums for fear that people think I'm trying to solicit, even the very informative ones like this one, as the inventor of the Pripaus Shot I thought I might offer a few helpful references and insights that I have not revealed before now.

Usually when I post on the forums, I'm attacked.  I understand why.  So many snake oil salesmen and after we've all been ripped off a few times, anything that smacks of another rip off just makes me want to fight.  So, I'll put this info here to be posted if the forum moderators think it's useful, but if I make you angry, I'm sorry...I just see some questions here that I may be able to contribute some info to help resolve...but I'm not going to jump back on and debate or engage in the anger.  This is what I've read and noticed and why I'm teaching doctors world wide.  But we both need me to be engaged in research, not in heated forum debates.  Sooooooo—here goes and  hopefully I can point out a few things in a peaceful and acceptable way:

First, the Priapus Shot (like every other medical therapy that I know) is NOT perfect.  Everyone is not "cured" but many are—after years of suffering—many are.  Why? How?

I'll answer some of the questions I've seen posted and give some references.

As back ground.. injected my own penis...first human to have PRP injected into the penis and chose to inject my own..over 5 years ago and many times after.  The idea for injecting the penis came from injecting scars and rejuvenating the tissue of the face and watching what happened.  Out of those ideas came the "Vampire Facelift" which was my invention (not PRP, but the way I use it in the face).  But, from the start, the Vampire procedures were done as a way to visibly test ways to rejuvenate and heal the genitalia.

The medical references about how the Vampire Facelift (vampire because using blood to heal and because the press loves the word) works are listed here and help explain why it may work in the penis:   http://vampirefacelift.com/research/  
You'll also see a movie there of me explaining how PRP works in wound care.
https://vimeo.com/80967277

PRP sounds mysterious and in some ways the details of how it works are mysterious, but the idea is very simple:  we are making the yellow goo that you can see in the scab that's on the knee of a child after falling down (that's platelet rich fibrin matrix, which is what the PRP turns into after injected or before injected if calcium is added to start the thrombin cascade).

To see photos and an interview of the treatment of scar tissue using PRP, watch the movie that's posted here:https://vimeo.com/user8526273/review/47093322/feee302a9e

For an adjunct to the PRP...
I'm sure you guys have seen this, but here's a nice research study showing that not all, but some can be helped by a pump alone:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20438558

Let me digress make a point.  
When I was an ER physician and taught paramedics at a local college how to do resuscitation, I used to make a joke about the text book they used.  The text book would divide up the possible treatments up into 3 categories, (1) those proven to help, (2) those that may help, & (3) those not well researched but that may help.  The reason that I thought that designation (when a paramedic is in the street) was funny was because of this...if you're lying there with your heart not beating, which of the 3 categories do you want?

You want all 3!  

If category 3 is likely very safe & possibly healthy, then why would you not want that as much as category 1?  

Of course you see the analogy.  

So, yes, you can see one of the 3 research projects (about the Priapus Shot for Peyronie's) that I know is going on by people whom I have taught if you look at the following video,  https://vimeo.com/user8526273/review/108144719/f9d26b37ed
...but if you want to see the final result of a multicenter study with 10,000 patients, you'll be waiting for a while.

On the other hand, there are over 11,000 (that's eleven thousand!) research papers about PRP and NOT ONE of them showing one serious side effect.  I cannot say that about any other therapy that I know (I've had 2 patients wreck their car just driving to my office over the past 20 years...driving to my office is more risky that the MILLIONS of PRP injections done over the past 15 years):http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=prp

This treatment is NOT perfect.  But the idea behind it is very well established and we DO have people getting amazing results.

Is it permanent?  Look at the scarred ankle again in the video referenced above...yes what's created from the new tissue growth IS permanent.  On the other hand, nothing is permanent (in 100 years we are all dirt again).  And, there's still aging. And whatever process started the plaque formation, if left alone could recur.  And, the truth is we just do not know why on a cellular level some heal better than others.

We, however, know some things (we think:)), and I agree with most of the other things discussed on this excellent forum. Practices and supplements and hormones that increase tissue health should help!  

More specifically, if you're eating your mother's amazing spagetti, you don't debate about whether it's the noodles or the sauce or the meatballs that make it wonderful—you want the whole secret recipe (and by the way, it's much better because she cooks it in an iron pot).

The problem with most research is that it must be done with only one variable or else it's difficult to know if what you're doing is actually working or not?

But, with over 11,000 research papers, most showing benefit in multiple tissues (mouth, bone, collagen, nerve, scar resolution), and ZERO serious side effects, tell me a good reason why you would not want to include this as part of your recipe for the treatment of Peyronie's?


Painful?  Not that much.  
Expensive? Cost less then repairing your car's transmission.

Five years ago, when I first injected my penis, I was extremely terrified.   I did not know what effect the gelatinous platelet rich fibrin matrix would have.  Would I get priapism and wind up in the ER? Would I get necrosis from the immediate blockage of blood flow? Would I cause pyeronie's if the material were not distributed evenly?  Those are the things I feared.  But now after well over 10,000 patient treatments over the past 5 years, the question becomes "will this work for this one person sitting in front of me with ED or Peyronie's"? Sure, there could be the rare person who becomes the first person in the world to have a serious side effect.  We have a consent form because we don't know.  But, so far there have been no serious side effects with the Priapus Shot just as with PRP in general.

So, hopefully that gives food for thought.  I mostly teach now and am not looking for new patients (please do not contact me for that purpose and if you have questions please post them here for your forum to discuss or on our review page on the Priapus Shot (R) official page).

As for stem cells.  If you NEEDED stem cell transfer for PRP to work, you'd need to get a stem cell transfer to heal the skin of your knee when you fell as a child.  You don't need that transfer because the pluripotent stem cells are sitting there waiting to grow when needed and fertilized by the PRP.  Here's where you can read more about that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_potency#Pluripotency

& here's a rat study where the penis got much better from "stem cells" but the researchers noted that the stem cells died!  So they postulated that the real results came from the growth factors that were mixed with the stem cells (as in PRP): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20104670

Two warnings.
(1) There are FDA approved kits for preparing PRP for injection back into the body.  They are expensive and the centrifuges they use are outrageously expensive. Some doctors try and make their own PRP using homemade lab equipment.  Which would your rather have?

(2) Some doctors claim to be in our Priapus Shot provider group who are not and many of these "fakes" I would not trust to feed my cat.  They don't know how we inject and many of them use "home-made" PRP instead of using FDA approved kits.  

So, I'd advise using someone in our group.


By the way, the FDA does not approve procedures, the FDA approves drugs and devices.  So the doctor should be using lab equipment designed and approved by the FDA for the preparation of platelet rich plasma to go back into the body.  Then you know it's sterile and you actually are getting PRP. But the FDA does not govern the way the doctors inject the PRP...that's a procedure.

If you want to use this as part of your Peyronie's treatment "recipe" then I'd recommend you find one of the providers listed on our official list (I'm not sure if I should put that link because I can see that may be too commercial, but you can easily find our official website with a Google search).

Hope this is OK to post this.  I know as the inventor of the procedure that it's impossible for me to be unbiased.  But, hopefully the references that I've given you will let you research this area of medicine and make a smart decision.

I'm very glad for the internet and for forums like this one.  I learn from them as much as I can and hope that my little note will help contribute to the conversation.

Peace & health,

Charles

Charles Runels, MD
inventor of the Vampire Facelift (R), Priapus Shot (R), O-Shot (R), & Vampire Breast Lift (R)

Here's a few more of the research projects that I've done so you can see that I'm not just another penis snake oil salesman...you'll see a variety of topics:http://runels.com/research_experience.htm

james1947

Dr. Runels

First, I would like to thank you for join the forum and posting here.
It may help some of the forum members that are thinking about going on this way.
Maybe I miss it, but on all your links I didn't found a research that is in the international research standards, you know, one that have a group that are getting the real thing and the other one getting something else.
I would like also to ask you to read what forum members have reported, I concentrated it bellow, to help forum members to make a decision on the subject:
PRIAPUS/PRP Injections Trial (forum) - Peyronies Society Forums
Personally I was very enthusiastic in the beginning, can say that I am now, based on my own experience and other forum members experience.
Here you have our heated debate, to the level that some forum members accused me of distorting the truth (to the positive direction), biased moderation and abuse of power as moderator (maybe they were right):
Debate on Pripapus/PRP efficiency for Peyronies - Peyronies Society Forums
I made all the topics regarding PRP sticky to remain always at the top. According to the forum results, maybe I should change it.
Very few posts, some not relevant at all regarding PRP in the last 6 months.
More details (but much more time needed to read) can find here:
Priapus shot - Peyronies Society Forums
It will be very helpful for the forum if you will read the topics and answer to some of the questions that members have posted. We have no any professionals answers to them.  

Thank you again for joining the forum and posting
James
Age 71, Peyronies from Jan 2009 following penis fracture during sex. Severe ED.
Lost 2" length and a lot of girth. Late start, still VED, Cialis & Pentox helped. Prostate surgery 2014.
Got amazing support on the forum

DrRunels

Quote from: james1947 on May 12, 2015, 04:24:47 PM
Dr. Runels

It will be very helpful for the forum if you will read the topics and answer to some of the questions that members have posted.[/b] We have no any professionals answers to them.  


Thank you very much, James.  
The post that I placed was an attempt to answer some of the questions that I saw posted.  I've tried to point to research about PRP and how it works.  I know of 3 studies of the Priapus Shot that are underway.  And I referenced one of those studies in my post.  There are none yet that have been completed and published directly about Peyronie's but expect to see that study by year's end.

If there's an important question that I failed to answer, please let me know.

best regards,

Charles

james1947

Dr.Runels

I will try to compile a few question that in my opinion are important to be answered.
It will take a few days, I will post on this topic.
I made the topic sticky to remain on the top for now.

James
Age 71, Peyronies from Jan 2009 following penis fracture during sex. Severe ED.
Lost 2" length and a lot of girth. Late start, still VED, Cialis & Pentox helped. Prostate surgery 2014.
Got amazing support on the forum

Jonbinspain

Dr Runels;

Firstly, than you for taking the time to post such an informative article on our forum. This is something I have read about on this forum and elsewhere. As far as I know, this treatment is not yet available in Europe. If you know differently, and could recommend or suggest where enquiries can be made, it would be appreciated.

nemo

Dr. Runnels, let me apologize up front if this post sounds hostile, but from the outset of the Priapus/PRP discussion on this forum (which has been pretty much dormant for some time), I have been one of the most suspicious of its efficacy as a treatment and thus feel compelled to respond.

First, to be completely forthright, I find it curious that you enter this forum now. (Quoting you: "I just see some questions here that I may be able to contribute some info to help resolve.") In point of fact, there hasn't been much discussion of Priapus around here for months (as I suspect is the case on the penis enlargement forums, as well). This is due, I believe, to the fact that most here who undertook the treatment found it to be of no lasting benefit in terms of their Peyronie's Disease (i.e., a reduction in plaque size or curvature/distortion). In truth, the medical community is itself divided on the subject of whether PRP is efficacious for any of its touted applications, so the experience of our forum members, who suffer a condition that has confounded medical science for hundreds of years, is hardly surprising.  

Second, and perhaps more pointedly, I find your "Category 3" argument to border on offensive given your financial interest. It might work - what have you got to lose? seems to be the gist of the argument. Well, a few thousand bucks for one thing. "Category 3" is a rationale exceptionally well-suited to a treatment that is questionable at best, targeted at men who are frankly desperate. It's the kind of response I would expect if I ask my doctor "Should I drink Pomegranate juice?" Replace that question with "Should I pay thousands of dollars to have injections made into my penis by a non-urologist?" and I demand a more qualified, scientific response. As a doctor yourself, Peyronie's sufferers should hold you to a higher standard than "Why not?" - ESPECIALLY when you are primary financial beneficiary.  As yet, that higher standard - double blind studies proving its efficacy for Peyronies Disease (or really anything) - simply don't exist.  So again, why now?

In closing, when you ask the question, "Tell me a good reason why you would not want to include this in your recipe for the treatment of Peyronie's?" I would cite several: 1) Because it is not approved by the FDA for said treatment; 2) because anecdotal reports here of actual Peyronies Disease sufferers getting the treatment do nothing to establish or support its efficacy; and 3) because I am unswayed (and frankly, made suspicious) by its inventor touting its merits as a "what have you got to lose?" proposition. All these factors lead me to believe that yes, it's probably not harmful, but neither is it effective.  

Again, I apologize if this comes across as hostile or unwelcoming, but just a few months ago we had a Urologist join the forum under the guise of sharing his wealth of knowledge about Peyronies Disease, when in fact, he really didn't seem to know anything about Peyronies Disease and was likely drumming up business for his highly suspect penile enlargement surgeries.  In that vein, being that you are not someone who has studied Peyronie's Disease, did not design this treatment with Peyronies Disease in mind, and has no science to establish its effectiveness on this condition, your post, coming as it does well after the hubub around Priapus has died a natural death here, might give one to wonder if your intent is to rekindle a revenue stream as much as a science-based discussion.

I look forward to the results of the studies.

Sincerely,
Nemo
51 yrs. old, multiple auto-immune conditions. First episode of Peyronies Disease in 2002. Recurred a couple times since. Over the years I have tried Topical Verapamil, Iontophoresis, all the supps and Cialis + Pentoxifylline. Still functional, always worried.

DrRunels

Nemo

1. I don't know how much discussion happened lately but I discovered your forum yesterday and saw unanswered questions...indicating uncertainty about how long it works and what's the science behind it

2. The medical community is not divided about whether PRP helps for anything.  The FDA has approved over 20 divices and over 11,000 papers published ... That doesn't happen for something that does not work.  In dentistry and orthopedics and wound care and post laser treatments and cosmetically...the benefits are well established as a way to rejuvenate tissue and resolve and prevent scarring.

3.as for most of the forum people not being helped...I don't know if that's been surveyed or if that counts as a study either but some were helped ...what if they had stayed away at your council.

4.as for double blind studies...those were never done with birth control pills and other medicines and most procedures...some therapies are difficult if not impossible to study in a double blind way
Injecting blood is one of those ways.

5. As for why not? Because the sience and logic behind PRP IS there and because some ARE helped...and if possible benefit is great and downside is small...why not

6. As I mentioned...the FDA does not approve procedures...they don't approve cholecystectomy or Priapus shots--/they approve only drugs and devices.

By the way...myself and most of my providers give back all of the money if the person is not satisfied to avoid this exact idea that we are just con artists trying to take your money

Yes I have given back money because nothing is perfect...but for 12 years as far as I know everyone who every paid me cash either got well or  I don't have their money.  

Your gently put implication is that I'm out to steal from desperate people...that is offensive
I keep a money back guarantee as do most of the providers of the Priapus shot to avoid that insult

If you look at my links you'll see that Dr Virag from Paris  (who was a pioneer with the TriMix injections) is now primarily studying PRP and you'll see data there and your studies soon

I doubt I'll be back here.  It's a smart forum but I DO find it offensive  that you think  I just showed up to steal your money by touting a worthless idea and not give legitimate references to answer questions. I'm sure you're  a nice guy just telling it like you see it, but I've put the references there...go read all 11,000 plus scientific studies (I provided the link) and look at the other videos...one is a preview of Dr Virags research... and I think you'll answer your questions

One last tip...I have not seen it mentioned but smoking will cause PRP to not work (it's why many surgeons will not do elective surgery if you smoke...it poisons the growth factors)

Hope this post has been helpful to some and I hope  that  we figure out solutions that are 100% effective and perfectly safe soon.  We do not have that  yet.  I've worked 5 years to come up with something imperfect and being formally studied by 3 different urology groups that I know of and that's all I can offer.  

But our growing group of providers is still working and you will see research soon.  Wait for that research or never have it done if that's your decision...I showed up because I discovered  your forum yesterday and saw questions that went without answers.

I'm probably better sticking with my gut and staying off the forums. I'm not rich and I ain't a saint...so when I'm accused of being a liar and a theif when I actually do have a money back guarantee I have to struggle to stay civil...that's always a good sign to exit.

Very best wishes

Charles

nemo

Then I will lower the bar, Dr. Runnels.  

Produce ONE Peyronie's sufferer who through Doppler Ultrasound (before and after) testing shows measurable plaque reduction after receiving your Priapus shot and I will consider this a potentially beneficial treatment worth looking into.

Short of that, "What have you got to lose?" doesn't impress. Produce one verifiable result (as described above) so I know there is something to gain.

My opinion only.

Nemo
51 yrs. old, multiple auto-immune conditions. First episode of Peyronies Disease in 2002. Recurred a couple times since. Over the years I have tried Topical Verapamil, Iontophoresis, all the supps and Cialis + Pentoxifylline. Still functional, always worried.

incautious

Dr, Runnels, as one who got this procedure and posted my experiences here, it's nice to hear from the horse's mouth so to speak. Nemo makes valid points about this procedure and the background surrounding the Priapus Shot. He has been the voice of reason here and I for one valued his input even though we have had some differences in opinion.  In a way you are your own worst enemy. Besides not having performed scientific studies to back up the claims of male enhancement or other benefits, there are not any before and after pictures of results even on your own website. As a matter of fact nowhere on the entire internet other than here can you see before and after results of the Priapus Shot. There are plenty of before and after shots of the vampire facelift for example, so it's easy to see how people are skeptical of this procedure. That's too bad, the recent French study by Dr.Virag which combined PRP with hyaluronic acid showed that 11 out of 13 patients with Peyronie's saw improvement even 9 months later. While the jury may be out on the effects of PRP on male enhancement and weather it is permanent or not , I believe it can benefit men with Peyronie's, erectile dysfunction, lack of sensitivity and penile atrophy. In my case I believe PRP helped me and my Urologist can confirm that I once had plaque and now I don't. Weather it was the Priapus Shot or a combination of all the treatments (traction, VED, vit e ect) we will never know.  

james1947

Dr. Runnels

I think you are over reacting and too sensitive regarding Nemo post.
We have sometimes very different points of view on some issues, but this what this forum is.
A pack of Peyronies sufferers that are trying together to find solutions to this horrible disease.
And the reason why some of us (I have to admit, many times myself also) are suspicious is because we tried, as a community let's say, everything that may help fighting this disease, getting back length and girth we have lost, correcting bends and ED.
Sometimes endangering our health and what remained from our manhood after stuck by Peyronies.
In my opinion it will be beneficiary for the forum and for yourself if you will continue to be here.
You just have to understand that this forum is not censoring posts (except for what is clearly detailed in the forum rules), not supported by any advertisers and everyone can post clearly his opinion on any subject.
Personally, if I will know the % of the PRP and hyaluronic acid in the french doctor trial, I will give it a try again :)

James
Age 71, Peyronies from Jan 2009 following penis fracture during sex. Severe ED.
Lost 2" length and a lot of girth. Late start, still VED, Cialis & Pentox helped. Prostate surgery 2014.
Got amazing support on the forum


DrRunels

James,

I gave honest answers to posts with links to real data concerning PRP to the point that it's been published so far.  

The studies everyone is looking for are being done; so, I tried to encourage by letting the group know what research is being done and gave the name of one physician (of 3 different urology groups) that is doing those studies.

I provided data about the reasoning behind a new therapy that I freely admitted needs more research but which is very low risk and most of us physicians provide with a money back guarantee!  I purposefully provide very few before & after photos anywhere because they can lead to false hope (every person is NOT helped) and until fairly recently were considered unethical by the AMA. If you read the following, you'll see that before and after photos were considered "completely unethical until well into the 1980's" (that's when I was in training):https://books.google.com/books?id=MDUqnqyhR-8C&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=before+and+after+photos+ethics&source=bl&ots=oabFtJXJT5&sig=eb-U8SXdpSAMg_RAFSeEw3iPpgk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ghNWVZKgCNH5yQSU-YCYDg&ved=0CGEQ6AEwDg#v=onepage&q=before%20and%20after%20photos%20ethics&f=false

So, I'm not into trying to convince with photos or otherwise. I'm only reporting the science as we presently know it and answering questions that were put on your forum.

So that you can get another look at the reasoning for why the Pripaus Shot should work, here's a study I headed up that we did already complete about using this same idea in women...
http://www.oshot.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/openaccess.pdf

In return, in no uncertain terms, the response by other members were accusations of being a liar and a con artist.

Did the patient who reported positive results from the Priapus Shot receive accusations of being a liar and a con artist? Should he have not sought treatment or even been informed of the procedure because there are no ultrasound studies?  Should we simply not share any ideas and personally attack those who offer solutions not backed up by double blind-placebo controlled-ultrasound proven therapies because that's all that matters and anything else is a scam?

The implied and the not-so-subtle insults are just one of the expected things that happen when you post information as a provider of an answer rather than as someone looking for answers. It's why I usually stay off the forums.

I do not take it personally, I just have no desire to keep coming back for more.  Wasted energy that can be better used for planning and funding more research (about $200,000 I spent last year.....that's spending, not taking in...that was funded by the physicians in our group).


Here's another study that showed positive results, we are extending the study and it will be published later this year as well (ignore the crowd funding link, the study's done and the "crowd only contributed around $500, so i funded the rest).
http://lichensclerosustreatment.com Michelle King MSc, Hillary Tolson, Charles Runels MD, Meghan Gloth MD, Richard Pfau MD, Andrew T Goldstein MD (lead investigator). Autologous Platelet Rich Plasma (PRP) Intradermal Injections for the Treatment of Vulvar Lichen Sclerosus

I realize that it's the nature of forums to be abrasive sometimes you can't be an innovator and notice the nay-sayers; in many ways it's a compliment.

But, providing data and a status report of reasoning behind the past and current research should not result in an attack on character.  I have received private messages from people on the forum who had further ideas and experiences but who don't want to deal with the tone of the conversation or let others even know they are supportive for fear of the attacks being directed toward them.  So, the tone of is abrasive enough to prevent some of your own group from commenting positively about the Priapus Shot.

Look through the posts on your forum.  How much of the advice is backed up by double blind studies and ultrasound reports? Yet it's received with courtesy because it's sharing what we know and what we think between those who are looking for help. But, it's different and probably should be different if you're the one offering an answer (in other words, it's what I should have expected).

If sharing my knowledge means I'm gently but most definitely accused of dishonesty and thievery, then I'm better staying away and using my energy to post information elsewhere. Being creative and innovative demands HUGE amounts of energy and time.  So, unfortunately the best way to avoid abrasive comments from nay-sayers is to just dont go in the room with them. No hard feelings.  I understand why people get angry.  It's why the providers should just stay off the forums.  But, I'm human too and just have no reason or desire to keep walking into a room where I'll be insulted.

Though, I don't belong here, I will continue to spend my time and money to further develop solutions.

I wish every one on the forum (even the nay-sayers :)) rapid healing and the most amazing sexual relations.

Peace & health,

Charles

nemo

Dr. Runnels, as the "provider of answers" I'm curious as to exactly what questions were you answering here?

Additionally, I'm really interested in the "money back guarantee" you have referenced several times. Where should we send our guys who spent thousands on your shot with no lasting benefit for their refund?  Do you also offer this guarantee on the penis enlargement forums where it burned out fairly quickly. Shall our members PM you to arrange refund?

I think the nut of the problem is this: "the reasoning why the Priapus shot should work." (Emphasis my own). I don't need to know why it "should" work, I'd like to see one example where it DID work (on Peyronie's). (Are you saying you have photos of it working on Peyronies Disease but just choose not to show them? Color me doubtful). Encouraging us to read 11,000 pages of why something "should" work is not a great defense for a treatment's efficacy, or it's value in a cost-benefit analysis.  

I'm sorry if my request for rigor and results has infringed on your time spent being "creative and innovative." As I have said many times in the discussion around Priapus, I would LOVE to be proven wrong, because if someone showed me proof their Peyronie's was markedly improved by receiving these costly injections, I would knock them over rushing to a provider to receive the shots myself. As it is, even as the inventor, your lengthy posts provide more heat than light, and fall far short of providing anything more than "should work" and "what have you got to lose? It costs less than repairing your car's transmission." The difference is, of course, my mechanic fully understands what's wrong with a transmission and how to repair it - you admit this treatment doesn't work for everyone, and you certainly make no claim to have figured out the medical mystery of Peyronie's Disease.  

After your appearance/withdrawal from our forum, I remain highly skeptical this is anything other than a niche market carved out of the general PRP field. If you believe guys are cowering here who actually have results but are afraid to share them, you should know that for quite some time I took daily brow-beatings here for getting between hope and reality - daring to urge normal scientific skepticism in absence of documented results. The results never materialized, sadly. These men desperately WANTED your product to work. And frankly, so did I.

I will await those results.

Nemo
51 yrs. old, multiple auto-immune conditions. First episode of Peyronies Disease in 2002. Recurred a couple times since. Over the years I have tried Topical Verapamil, Iontophoresis, all the supps and Cialis + Pentoxifylline. Still functional, always worried.

kuaka

Dr. Runnels,

Please understand the frustration and general mistrust of those of us on this forum.  I would not wish this condition on my worst enemy...well, maybe, but he is after all an enemy.

The general lack of knowledge within the medical community and specifically the urology "experts" concerning this condition is disheartening, and creates an environment for the proverbial "snake oil" salesmen.  The very fact that many of us here are under pseudonyms ON TOP of the lack of traceable identifying information required to be here speaks to the nature of this very private, very disturbing situation.

I ask you to stay here, and work with us.  If you can provide a successful example or two, even if the overall benefit may be a combination of factors including PRP, it will go a long way towards improving this situation for myself and many others.  It is truly a desperate situation, and the tendency of desperate situations to attract "vampires" (if you don't mind the term) has all of us extremely wary.

If you really want to have success with this application of yours, I'm fairly certain you can come up with a few volunteers right here to participate in a study.  Medical processes are often advanced in that way.  I am the father of five, and no less than two of my children have been participants in such studies.  The first was about 17 years ago, when my youngest daughter received an "experimental" treatment for a heart murmur.  Because this was a study, the operation was free to me, except for a few ancillary expenditures associated with the hospital visit.  To have this done today is a $20,000 outpatient surgery or so.  My daughter is now as healthy as any twenty-something, and that procedure/device is well accepted.

Her older sister is even now in the middle of another study of a treatment for liver problems, which again is essentially free to us.  Once proven, this particular program will run around $100,000 to have done.

I propose you do something similar.  Pick a number, 100 or so, perhaps 50, as long as it is statistically significant, and offer your procedure to them for "free"...ancillary costs of support medicines and lab work excepted.  Have a truly independent third party examine and diagnose all participants, or at least interview and establish the base line.  After these few have undergone your procedure, complete with before and after pictures and a suitable period of time then follow up, you will have an almost guaranteed successful practice providing just this treatment.

I will be first in line if you offer such a trial.

Kuaka

james1947

Dr. Runnels

I am happy you are still here.  :)
More this debate or Q&A will continue, more it will help forum members to decide the way to go.

James
Age 71, Peyronies from Jan 2009 following penis fracture during sex. Severe ED.
Lost 2" length and a lot of girth. Late start, still VED, Cialis & Pentox helped. Prostate surgery 2014.
Got amazing support on the forum

Jonbinspain

From my point of view, IF the money back guarantee is cast iron solid. And if it can be proved that no further damage can be done by these shots, then I'm willing to give it a try. Hell, I've tried just about everything else apart from surgery, with very limited results.

If it works, great. If not, and the money back guatantee is in writing, there doesn't appear to be much left to lose! My only major concern would be the possibility of causing further damage. None of us needs that!

nemo

Prior to Dr. Runnels' appearance here, I don't recall "Priapus" and "money back guarantee" ever being used in the same discussion. And for a treatment the inventor is quick to tell us won't help everyone, I'm particularly curious how that "guarantee" works (and again, if it applies to our members here who spent thousands and saw no lasting benefit).

So please, Dr. Runnels, there's a question that you could answer definitively. ... What are the details on this guarantee?

Nemo
51 yrs. old, multiple auto-immune conditions. First episode of Peyronies Disease in 2002. Recurred a couple times since. Over the years I have tried Topical Verapamil, Iontophoresis, all the supps and Cialis + Pentoxifylline. Still functional, always worried.

skunkworks

I don't know why Dr Runnels is taking this so personally (though he states he isn't). There is justified scepticism about the treatment and it is being voiced. He is best placed to answer that scepticism, which is directed at the data (or lack thereof) and the efficacy of the treatment.

Everyone here wants the treatment to work...

Requesting a single patient case study backed by scans, of the treatment successfully working on Peyronie's, that is not an unreasonable request. If none exist yet, it should not be difficult to organise with future patients.

No-one here had heard about a money back guarantee, not even those who have had the treatment. That does change things a lot, as safe+expensive+unknown efficacy+money back guarantee is a very very different scenario to just safe+expensive+unknown efficacy. I think Dr Runnels would have to agree with that.
This is an emotionally destructive condition, we all have it, let's be nice to each other.

Review of current treatment options by Levine and Sherer]

Thisismyusername

I'm not sure I would consider injecting anything into the plaque "safe".  I'm not saying it's a huge risk, but there is some risk.  The idea that you might as well try because it might help is ridiculous.  We're talking about putting a needle into your penis, directly into the plaque, with no real evidence to support it's effectiveness, and it's expensive.  Everything about it sounds like snake oil, especially the way it's advertised and the kind of people who are offering the shot.  What I can't believe is how seriously people are taking this.  

nemo

I'll give Dr. Runels this much - when he says he's taking his ball and going home, he apparently means it.

Nemo
51 yrs. old, multiple auto-immune conditions. First episode of Peyronies Disease in 2002. Recurred a couple times since. Over the years I have tried Topical Verapamil, Iontophoresis, all the supps and Cialis + Pentoxifylline. Still functional, always worried.

Jed


Pfract

Jed: There was a member here, that had a consultation with him, although i can't recall who it was. If you do decide to go there, maybe you could try in the end before you leave, to talk about this forum and topic that was posted here? :D

james1947

pfract

I don't understand your sentence:
QuoteIf you do decide to go there, maybe you could try in the end before you leave, to talk about this forum and topic that was posted here?
This topic was opened by Dr. Runels itself, you didn't read all the posts on this topic?

James
Age 71, Peyronies from Jan 2009 following penis fracture during sex. Severe ED.
Lost 2" length and a lot of girth. Late start, still VED, Cialis & Pentox helped. Prostate surgery 2014.
Got amazing support on the forum

nemo

New guys, before you post questions, comments, thoughts, etc., on this subject, I'd encourage you to please read the history of Priapus as discussed on our forums, including the entirety of this thread. It's a complicated subject that does not need to be rehashed unless there is something truly new to report. For those of you interested in contacting Dr. Runels, Google is your friend.

Nemo
51 yrs. old, multiple auto-immune conditions. First episode of Peyronies Disease in 2002. Recurred a couple times since. Over the years I have tried Topical Verapamil, Iontophoresis, all the supps and Cialis + Pentoxifylline. Still functional, always worried.

Pfract

Yes, i did read. But he hasn't come back and he might have something else to say, he didn't write here... :P

james1947

pfract

He was not active in the last 10 days, but you can send him an email with your questions.

James
Age 71, Peyronies from Jan 2009 following penis fracture during sex. Severe ED.
Lost 2" length and a lot of girth. Late start, still VED, Cialis & Pentox helped. Prostate surgery 2014.
Got amazing support on the forum

mischa

I had this done 18 months ago. With absolutely no result. I took it for ED. Followed all the instructions and $1500 dollars later had zero result. Talk about frustrating! The doctor performing the injection was training a nurse practitioner and she actually did the injection, even after expressing my concern. They blew me off. The doctor was trained by a doctor who trained directly under Dr Runels. I had an unbelievable amount of swelling and had the most freakish looking dick you have ever seen. After everything was all said and done they said that sometimes there is little result for some people and you need another injection within 3 months - at $1500 cash only! I emailed Dr Runels about my concerns and never heard from him. Needless to say I feel ripped off. I will say that I did all of the required pumping and had a very temporary change in girth and length that went away as soon as I stopped pumping. Since they consider this a "cosmetic" procedure, and the literature says so, there is no guarante of any results. I felt taken advantage of and totally humiliated. I't bad enough to have a nurse practitioner do your injection but when you are slightly smaller then average in size it's even more humiliating. The only other consideration is all of the research I have done for PDS and injuries, particularly micro-injury of the tissues can cause plaque after the trauma during the healing process. I believe these injections may have contributed to the sudden progression of my Peyronies Disease. Only my thoughts on the subject, nothing based on fact.
Your other identical post deleted by moderator.
Read the forum rules!!!

Mischa😕