Traction

[skunkworks]

Just passed the one month mark. Did 55 hours all up in the first month hope to raise that to around 120 this month.

Erection quality is up, no idea about length as I am only going to measure every 3 months.

[chiguy]

Just passed the 2 month mark for fastsize, currently at 370 hours. I am stretching 1 inch past current erection length. I think I am at the point where it becomes harder to add a 0.5 centimeter bar because instead of adding one each week, it took about 9 or 10 days. I assume this is the point where the most changes take effect as one is really stretching. I also cannot go 2 full hours at this stretch length, I can go about 75 minutes before I need a rest.

I have gained about 0.3 inches in length and 0.2 in girth over the 2 months. Curve reduction has not yet occurred, but I'm optimistic as I feel the stretch on the area with the curve.

[MikeSmith]

I have used traction (fast size) for about a week... am in the early phase of this (started around november).  I am actually a little concerned it is curving to the left now (above the plaque)...but then again, maybe that's impossible given it has been just 1 week.  not sure... the plaque is much worse on the left - so perhaps it was like this always.

But also - w/ the combination of penox, arg, and sometimes viagra (and vit E, etc...) i think I have had better erections in general.  It seemed to improve more after only a few days w/ fast size.  The girth toward the base seemed bigger / stronger.  No Peyronies Disease changes yet of course...but as a new patient, those are just my own thoughts / observations.

I think i'm going to use the VED too but I had a hard time working out the suction issues...i think if u dont shave the hair, it wont form a vacuum (well at least i couldnt get it to yet).   I couldn't get it to work (but it worked on my hand) ... so the pump works, it's just that i cant get it to work down below... also cleaning the lube off me and the device is kind of annoying compared w/ the traction device which is lower maintenance (but u have to wear it longer - so maybe the tradeoff is not bad).  

[zeppo]

Thanks  for the advice, Lwillis and Jack.
Jack, did you start using the VED soon after you were  diagnosed?
Thanks, Zeppo

[jackp]

zeppo

One of the problems with waiting to treat peyrones is loss of penile size, up to 25%.

I used the VED to help regain lost size and to help my penis stray healthy. I recommend you go to the VED board, all the information you need should be there. If not Old Man is the best source of information.

Jackp

[lwillisjr]

Zeppo,
I don't know of any expert that would say to wait. Well know experts like Dr. Levine and others would tell you to start aggresively treating the Peyronies Disease as soon as possible. You want to try to keep it from getting worse during the acute phase.

Your Hamlet quote is great as there are many suggestions regarding whether to use the VED vs. traction. Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

[zeppo]

I’m new to this site, having found it only recently.  I’m grateful that
I was  fortunate enough to discover this forum, with its wealth of
information,  and group members who have had experience with various
methods  of treating Peyronies Disease.

“To stretch or not to stretch, that is the question.  Whether ‘tis nobler……”  -
I  feel almost like Hamlet these days trying to  determine which step to take
next in my  treatment of  Peyronies Disease.   After spending much time reading posts on this
forum, as well as on the Web,  I’ve come to the conclusion that the use of either
the traction device  or VED  is the most effective treatment. 

The dilemma I am  faced with is “when should  I start”?    Some  physicians who specialize in treating Peyronies Disease recommend waiting until the disease reaches the chronic stage, which occurs sometime between 12 and 18 months after onset of the disease.   The logic behind this theory is that using a  stretching technique while still in the acute stage of the disease could cause further damage.   Other  expert physicians recommend starting treatment  ASAP, while still in the acute phase, in order to nip the disease in the bud. 
In my case, I was diagnosed in October, 2009, but started noticing symptoms a couple
of months earlier, thus  I’m still in the acute stage, about  6 months post-onset of the disease.       
Both theories sound plausible.   If some experts recommend  starting stretching while in the acute stage, and others recommend waiting for the chronic stage before starting, it seems like the timing related to the commencement of   a stretching treatment  could be decided by a coin flip. 

I’d appreciate any info and opinions  related to when is the best time to start a stretching treatment.                 

Thanks in advance, Zeppo

[bart15]

Hey Neidz,

If you go to the Big Penis Enlargement Forum, people use a modified device with a Vac head piece. Here is a link to what the head piece looks like

http://www.autoextender.com/vacextender.html

If you go to the forum, there are many threads on tips on helping wearing the device. You can type in Vac head piece and read about it in threads and I guess ask guys about your situation and if it would help. Here is the link to the forum

http://www.big-penis.com

I don't know if this would help avoid the area where you have a plaque, but it is something worth considering. Apparently it also more comfortable and can give you a harder stretch.

Bart

[chiguy]

Now I get what you are saying. It makes sense.

With the small spacers, I measured them to be 0.67cm. That's why only 3 equals a 2cm bar. It appears that the company changed the sizing of the spacers at some point, because other users say they have the same small spacers as me, while others have 0.5cm small spacers.

[BrooksBro]

Because I have to add a spacer when the springs are no longer compressed, I believe there is a continuing increase in length. 

Can you clarify when you say you must add a spacer when the springs are no longer compressed? I'm a little confused by the compression. Wouldn't the springs not be compressed in order to achieve the maximum stretch? I could just be reading this wrong.

Correct, you compress the springs and then tighten the noose.  When you release the hand pressure, the springs are free to extend to apply tension.  After wearing it daily for 1-2 weeks with the same number of spacers, I notice after it has been on for a while that I can easily pull the end plastic piece away from the end of the tension bars by a little bit.  That tells me the springs are fully extended and no longer applying very much tension, if any.  That is when I add another spacer.  The springs have 3/8 inch maximum travel from fully extended to fully compressed, and the spacers are 1/4 inch long.

[chiguy]

Neidz and I have a similar plaque location and time using the FS.  My wife has noticed an increase in girth, as have I.  Because I have to add a spacer when the springs are no longer compressed, I believe there is a continuing increase in length.  I average 2-4 hours on most days, perhaps up to 6 hours per day on weekends.  I have not yet detected any change in the plaque size or location.

Can you clarify when you say you must add a spacer when the springs are no longer compressed? I'm a little confused by the compression. Wouldn't the springs not be compressed in order to achieve the maximum stretch? I could just be reading this wrong.

[BrooksBro]

Neidz and I have a similar plaque location and time using the FS.  My wife has noticed an increase in girth, as have I.  Because I have to add a spacer when the springs are no longer compressed, I believe there is a continuing increase in length.  I average 2-4 hours on most days, perhaps up to 6 hours per day on weekends.  I have not yet detected any change in the plaque size or location.

Overall, I am pleased with my progress, so far.  I understand that this treatment (like braces on teeth) is a 6-12 month process.  In Levine's FS study, there was a measurable reduction in curvature, not elimination. 

Very recently improving my testosterone level has allowed Viagra to once again be effective.  My wife says it appears to her that my curvature is worse.  I believe that is because of the length and girth increases, and to better filling.  As was recently discussed, a stronger erection would expand the non-plaque side more.  More curved or not, it did not affect my ability to penetrate, and I did not have any increase in discomfort.  Actually, it felt pretty good, the best experience for me in the last year. 

I will continue the PAV cocktail, testosterone, and FS until they prove to be ineffective, achieve the desired results, surgery becomes necessary, or a better treatment comes along.  I don't see that there are many "good" choices.

[chiguy]

I'm a little worried it is going to stretch out the non-scarred area right above the scar...so the hourglass might end up even worse.  That area, when erect, is significantly narrower than the rest of the penis.  I'm not sure if this would really happen, but that's my biggest concern with it.

I have slight hourglassing on the left side, but no detectable plaque. I asked Dr. Levine, he said that in his experience, that particular scenario won't happen. Due to the stretching forces, you have to be stretching the entire shaft so that area has to be repaired first at least to the point where it is stretchable before moving to the next level.

[Tim468]

Neidz, It sounds like you're right - the FastSize did not help you and may have hurt you, even done more or less correctly.

You might bounce back to using the VED for a while - that may be able to apply a straightening force to your penis.

Tim

[MikeSmith]

I'm a little worried it is going to stretch out the non-scarred area right above the scar...so the hourglass might end up even worse.  That area, when erect, is significantly narrower than the rest of the penis.  I'm not sure if this would really happen, but that's my biggest concern with it.

[chiguy]

During my first week I experienced some discomfort with the device. I have gotten used to it, although when I remove the device after a 2 hour period, the head is slightly raw. The only pain I have is if I have an erection right after using the traction device for a long period of time, which is apparently normal. They say wait an hour or so after finishing with the device until sexual contact.

Sorry to hear the device didn't work out for you neidz. Perhaps there is something else you can try. Some users put a baby wipe underneath the foam (between the foam and head) to soften the blow.

[neidz]

I got the FastSize in October, 2009.  I was told by the company on a few occasions (I think there is only one or two ladies who handle calls).  Well, my curve is close to the head of the penis.  The area that the "noose" secures yourself to the unit put constant pressure on plaque in that area.  I talked to their customer service several times and waited for 2 mos for Dr. Levine to either email me or call me.  I manipulated the device several different ways to optimize the trajectory on the curve.  Several times myself was purple at the head from the stranglehold of the noose.  I can not even explain the penis pain I felt at times when I released the lasso.  I know, duh...............

Saw my euro. Dr. WO Brant in SLC 2/1/10, he said he thinks I have irritated the plaque (which he noticed immediately had worsened).  I don't know if it was because I hadn't stablized or if the device actually caused the worsening.  IMHO that it was a combination of both.  I was diligent.  At times I overstretched and with much moving around the office during the day--I certainly created stress.  In about 3 months I have gone from slightly uncomfortable intercourse to lastnight--could not penetrate with the increased curve.  Do I blame FS--absolutely at some level. 

Are you kidding?  I have spent over the past 2-3 months over 2hrs of conversation with a nice lady who is trying to understand how the traction unit is not working effectively for me.  Her only resolve was to take one home with her partner and try to see by play role what my problem was.

Understand that much of my problem could be related to the position of the curve.  But beware.

Dr. Levine --I'm sure could have saved me some significant degree increase in curvature if he would have called, emailed, whatever.  I mean, if he is going to endorse the product, and is an expert on Peyronies Disease, then he needs to somehow
support what I consider pushing a "severe" case of curvature.

[MikeSmith]

I am right now stretching at erection length, so I assume the majority of gains are made once an individual begins to stretch beyond their starting erection length.

Chi- thanks for the update.  How long did it take you to get to erection length?  I've had it for a few days and the most i feel comfortable with right now is erection length minus 1.5"... any more and i get nervous / don't feel comfortable.  Did Dr. Levine give you guidance on this? The little booklet didn't seem to say much about size, though it does tell you when to increase, etc.

How's the hourglassing looking? (if you had it - I forget..)

Thanks again!

[chiguy]

Haha doing my best to avoid that. Luckily, no one around here wakes up before 3pm.

[Iceman]

chiguy - make sure the neighbours dont see you...

[chiguy]

I figured I would update everyone on my experience with traction. I am currently almost a month into traction, I have logged 163 hours. Currently, I have a fuller erection, and slight increases in girth and length. There hasn't been much change to the curvature other than to say it is flatter, meaning not as sharp.

I am right now stretching at erection length, so I assume the majority of gains are made once an individual begins to stretch beyond their starting erection length.

I try to log 8 hours a day five days a week and 5 hours a day two days a week. This equates to 50 hours per week, which is 6 hours below the maximum allowed for each week. I have a lot of time, so I am doing my best to keep up with the regimen. The device has gotten more comfortable, except for the first 2 or 3 days when I add length to the device. Granted, it still is difficult to walk around in.

I do not wear the device out of the house as it would be too uncomfortable in jeans or dress pants.

[lwillisjr]

For you guys who have experiance using the traction device what activites are you able to do & not do while you are wearing it. Can you walk around without it slipping out of position or falling off.

I would wear mine at home underneath sweatpants. I could do most anything around the house. As someone earlier said just cautious when sitting or changing positions. I think I may have even drove down to the local convenience store to pick up something.

I think it is almost impossible to wear it under jeans or dress pants. So that ruled it out ofr me during the ady at work.

[Old Man]

Iceman:

I have always been of the opinion that one with Peyronies Disease should only use one treatment/therapy at a time. If more than one is used at the same time, you would never know which one did the good work. I have never used traction or the jelqing procedure of correcting curves or penis enlargement.

Early on, I tried some jelqing, but soon learned that it was causing more trauma than good. Most jelqing procedures call for bending the shaft in the opposite direction of the curve with heavy massaging while doing this. Maybe with mild massaging, bending the shaft in the opposite direction and careful use the jelqing might have worked. Anyway, I just quit it and never looked back after starting the VED therapy suggested by my uro.

However, bottom line, I did find that taking vitamin E in the levels suggested by uro apparently helped with blood flow into and out of the penis during use of the VED.

Old Man

[BrooksBro]

I am pleased with the post-stretching cream that came with my FastSize.  The $12 replacement cost ($6 per ounce) would bring a smile to Adam Smith were he still alive.  As I near the bottom of it, I am interested in a less expensive alternative.  Anyone care to recommend something they found equally soothing?

[BrooksBro]

I have about 3 months of experience.  I find it far from comfortable, just tolerable, that's all.  I can do most anything I want to do, I just have to be careful how I sit, squat, and bend over.  When I wear it with my penis pointed towards my navel (held up by underwear briefs), the ring moves down enough that one testicle often slips inside the ring.  This is briefly painful until quickly corrected.  Most often, I wear it pointed down, usually into one baggy pants leg or the other.  Then I just have to be careful how I sit and squat.

Perhaps most annoying is having to remove it when I go to the bathroom.  If you need to urinate often, that is very inconvenient.  Early on, I made the mistake of peeing while wearing it.  I won't do that again!  Because of this alone, I could never wear it to my 8-5 job.  Weekdays, I wear it 1-2 hours in the morning and about the same in the evenings, longer on weekends.  I wear it as much as I can, and add spacers when I begin to screw out the rods to keep the springs compressed.

[Woodman]

For you guys who have experiance using the traction device what activites are you able to do & not do while you are wearing it. Can you walk around without it slipping out of position or falling off.

[Iceman]

thanks oldman - i guess you gotta do what you have to do to keep this at bay - phsycologically  its better to do something than nothing at all - I mean i have thrown everything at this disease over the past 2 years and one can only try - I think that the pentox and ved usage is the best combination BUT who knows it could be VED and some other thing - interestingly enough i have ordered pycnoginol and keto 7 recently and have been using them in combination with other meds for the past month with no visible results - you guessed right a bit of a waste of money, hey what can I do just keep trying and try not to think about it too much and keep it in the back of my mind - focusing on Peyronies Disease really is negative and I believe  creates further problems ( physically and especially mentally).

[Old Man]

Iceman:

Well now, you have asked a good question. Since there are no known published studies supporting my position about VED usage, have only my personal experience working with quite a number of guys locally in my home town and those on the forum. I wish that the Birmingham, Alabama urology group would hurry up and publish their findings with their three cylinder VED study done in the past several years. To date, it has not come forth and all my repeated requests to them for such data have gone on deaf ears. So, as to that, who knows??

Now as for meds, that also is up in the air. I have not seen good studies that report any good success with meds. One or two that I could mention only cost the us pockets full of money with only bad results or none at all. So, IMHO, the jury is still out on that one too. The members of this forum has asked over and over for any and all using any kind of Peyronies Disease therapy to come back and report their success of failure in any of their attempts to get relief from their Peyronies Disease symptoms.

Hopefully, there will be a break through for Peyronies Disease relief sometime in the near future. But, based on the past several hundred years of men suffering from this malady, there is no indication of a "cure/treatment" that works will be forthcoming either.

So, bottom line, my suggestion to all is to keep trying anything and everything that has any potential for helping with their Peyronies Disease problems.

Old Man

[chiguy]

Woodman,

Dr. Levine said in his studies that none of his patients lost any noticeable length or girth after the 6 month mark with fastsize.

[Iceman]

hi oldman - how are you??

based on your last post what is the point of meds etc if it seems that usage of the ved is the only thing that will stop shrinkage etc.

cheers

iceman

[Old Man]

Woodman:

Yes, if one does not use the VED on somewhat of a regular basis, the penis will start to "shrink" back to a lessor state. The reason for this in most cases is the lack of nocturnal erections to keep the erectile tissue more healthy and able to expand well.

I have never used traction, so I am not well versed in what it can or can not do. However, it is highly touted by the penis enlargement web sites as being a permanent "fix" in enlarging ones penis. But, I highly suspect that the same principle applies about ones penis not keeping any enlargement received through traction when the therapy is stopped.

Most uros will state that ones penis will only respond to any enlargement benefited by either the VED or traction compared to what they had naturally earlier in life. Since most of us on the forum are in the old guys category we can only hope to be returned to what we had before old age and Peyronies Disease struck.

The above is just MHO based on my life's experience with Peyronies Disease, ED and other men's health problems. Others may have varied and different positions.

Old Man

[Woodman]

I ve read and heard over time that the results accomplished by the VED are not permanent. With the VED you must keep up a maintenance program to keep the results. Then with the traction device after 6 months of using it that the results are suppose to be permanent.

My question is has anyone used the traction device for 6 months or longer and kept the results permanently like has been described?

[lwillisjr]

You should keep the adjustment even on both sides. More tension will naturally be applied to the area causing the curve since it is less elastic than the surrounding tissue.

[chiguy]

I'm not good at geometry here haha. So I have a lefward curve. I should loosen the left side more than the right side and that would provide more traction to the left side correct?

But it seems that in order to straighten a left curve, you need the right side lower than the left?


In sum, which side do I make looser and which side do I make lower to straighten a left curve?

[BrooksBro]

I find after I have had mine on for about an hour, there is sometimes not any stretch being provided by the springs.  I can add a little tension by screwing the rods out at the base.  That's also how I can tell it is time to add another spacer, and then screw the rods to their shortest length again.

[lwillisjr]

Lwillis,

After 2 days, I barely feel the current stretch. Does this mean it's time to add?

Likewise, if the 2 weeks were up and I could still feel the stretch, I shouldn't add?

Did you correctly "size" the Fastsize initially? If it is the correct length, then you would need to compress the device against your pubic bone, strap in, and then slowly release the tension. It should feel tight just as the spring tensioners are starting to bottom out. I was never actually able to hold the device under tension and Dr. Levine said that wasn't necessary. I felt like I needed three hands the first couple of times of placing the device on. You'll get pretty good at it after a few times. You definitely should feel some tension as you are releasing the springs after strapping in? Did you watch the instruction video? Feel free to PM or phone me if you have questions. I'm happy to help.


Les

[chiguy]

Lwillis,

After 2 days, I barely feel the current stretch. Does this mean it's time to add?

Likewise, if the 2 weeks were up and I could still feel the stretch, I shouldn't add?

[lwillisjr]

Chiguy,
Dr. Levine always told me to wear it to a tolerable/comfortable stretch. You can add the .5 cm as stated by Fastsize, but if you get to a point where it is time to add .5cm and the current lenght is borderline tolerable, then skip it. Fastsize markets their device mostly for penis lengthening. And I think their protocal for adding the .5cm spacers is a bit agressive.

Follow the protocol as close as you can, but don't over do it.

[chiguy]

Fastsize says that you need to gradually work up to the 6-8 hours per day over a period of one month. They also have you add a spacer every month.

I'm not sure about the pilot study, but the protocal I received from Dr. Levine said you should add 0.5 cm in length to the device every 2 weeks. He has you start at your beginning length. I take this to mean that the first 2 weeks you work up to 6-8 hours. I assume at this point I can add 30 minutes per day. When I was at Dr. Levine's office, he said it would be a little uncomfortable the first week.

Today I wore the device for 1 hour and 45 minutes. 20 minutes after I stopped, the discomfort went away. I am a weightlifter and the discomfort felt about the same as when lifting weights for the first time (or lifting a lot more than normal).

[bart15]

Did they recommend using it for 2 hours right away? I could have sworn that you are supposed to break it in more gradually. I think in Dr. Levine's pilot study it stated that those who got the best results broke it in more slowly, as they were not as discouraged from using it later due to any pain that arose. Then again, if it is recommended to be worn for ~6 hours a day, it would take a month of breaking it in before you get to that stage at any slower pace so maybe you were right to do it that long.

Bart

[chiguy]

I received my fastsize traction device today in the mail. It took me about an hour to figure out how to use it. I wore it for 1 hour and 45 minutes. I didn't experience much discomfort, except the glans/head was a little squeezed. When I removed the device, I experienced a little discomfort on the left side of the head.

I imagine the discomfort gets better with time.

Tomorrow I will wear the device for 2 hours take a long break then maybe do another 30 minutes.

[bart15]

Hey,

I was wondering if anyone has enrolled in the FastSize Dr. Support Program? It is kind of odd because I emailed them inquiring about this program and got this response:

When you become a member of our Fastsize Dr. Support program at http://www.fastsizeextender.com you get a free Extender kit.   

This is a <b>REQUIRED </b> 6 month long payment program with 6 total payments of $39.95 plus shipping for the Extender.
The program comes with the following benefits:   
1) One-on-one physician oversight during the length of your treatment.
2) Private access to other Fastsize customers to compare results and get tips for faster gains.
3) A free spare part every month for your device
4) A free ancillary product (Post-stretching cream, Jelqing Lubricant, etc.) every month
5) Access to our interactive graphs and charts to monitor your progress
6) Special discounts on all new Fastsize products, such as our Extender, EQM, and upcoming Enhancer



What is weird about this program is that the total comes to about $240 with a one time shipping fee for the extender in the beginning, which is essentially the exact same price of $240 for the extender kit that you can purchase in a one time payment. I asked customer care at FastSize if you can just pay for the Dr. Support Program with one payment of $240 (Which is essentially what it is worth) but she stated that would be for the basic extender kit only. She said you can purchase the basic kit at $240, and then add on an additional $20/month for 6 months to get this Dr. Support Program (An additional $120), which totals $360.

The lady from customer care stated to me that they have these packages for two types of customers, those that can pay $240 on the spot (And get the basic kit), or those that can pay $39.99 over 6 months (And get the basic kit + the Dr. Support Program). It just doesn't make sense that you cannot pay for the Dr. Support Program option with a one time payment of $240, which is what it is worth, and instead are forced to either pay 6 times of $40, or the $240 right away and then the additional $20/month. I bring this up because I would prefer to pay for it right away (As I want to get the hassle out of the way) yet I would like these additional services offered by the Dr. Support Program (Dr. Levine is on their panel of doctors obviously and he answers some of the questions so that would be really nice, plus comparing results with others would be good). So what I wanted to ask is has anyone else come across this, and if they chose the Dr. Support Program, do they feel they got any benefits? (As a side note, some of these benefits are clearly pointless; I can make an excel file on my own to monitor my own progress, making special bonus offer #5 pretty useless  )

[lwillisjr]

headcrush,

You can try the traction for a congenital curve, but most of the information available indicates that there has not been much success with congenital curves. I believe about all you can do for a congenital curve is surgery. So certainly you would need to consider the amount of curvature that you have versus the risks involved with any type of surgery.

Les

[headcrush]

Hello,

From what I've read, I probably don't have peyronies, but rather a congenital curve. Do traction devices help these types of curves?

[chiguy]

Yea I know its tough to find the time. Luckily I have it. Apparently the device is concealable while wearing looser fitting jeans and other pants. I have not yet received it, but I will do my best to stick to the protocal and will report results.

[Woodman]

I too have seen Dr. Levine and he recommended to me to try the traction therapy for 3 to 6 months then decide after that next point if I wanted to have a plication procedure or not. I am self employed and I am still trying to figure out where to find the time. I thought maybe if I put it on after work and stayed in the house I could do it but the evenings I do go out some place I wouldnt have the time before having to go to bed. I even thought trying it on the times I had the free time then using the VED on the days I didnt have the time for traction. Still pondering on the subject too.

[skunkworks]

If you work from home by yourself, it is easy. I also have no idea how someone working in an office, and not living alone would be able to manage it.

[Old Man]

chiguy:

Just one question - how many guys have that much extra time to wear a traction device that many hours a day? 

I am totally retired and have been for 24 plus years, reached the ripe old age of 80 plus and I would not have that much time to wear a piece of cumbersome equipment like that. How does one conceal it if working in a public environment?

Just my 2 cents.

Old Man

[chiguy]

I just saw Dr. Levine in Chicago. He placed me on the fastsize traction protocal. He said that it will assist in hourglassing and curvature (i have very mild curvature) IF used at least 4-6 hours daily for 6 months. He showed me his study in which reported that in nearly all cases where the fastsize was used for 4-6 hours daily for 6 months, length was gained and hourglassing disappeared.

I would add however that the VED is probably better for an individual who has difficulty maintaining an erection since I don't see how traction could help for that. Traction is only stretching and building tissue.

[despise]

is there a certain routine that would work the best with traction and ved together?

There is zero data on that so whatever anyone tells you is their own personal opinion.

My own personal opinion on it is that traction then VED makes sense, as traction can often decrease bloodflow a bit then VED would pump it all back up again.

hmmmm so probably traction for a while first then VED to increase the bloodflow.