L-Carnitine and Red Meat

[runner70]

I removed my last post because I didn't want to be an alarmist.

There are a lot of studies that show benefits to L-CARNITINE in Peyronies.

What I am NOW reading is that red meat may be the biggest culprit in turning L-CARNITINE (which is found in it) into this TMAO compound which causes plaque in arteries.

I've given red meat up already. May be some good arguments for all us to do the same.

[skunkworks]

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/does-red-meat-clog-your-arteries-after-all/#axzz3EqYKgXe3

Note the section on fish.

[UrsusMinor]

I don't know of any studies that show L-Carnitine is beneficial for Peyronie's. I know of one study that shows Acetyl L-Carnitine is useful, and one that evaluated Propionyl L-Carnitine. L-Carnitine is a related but different chemical.

I'm a vegetarian (since 1969), so I'm obviously not in the pay of the red meat lobby.

However, the research about red meat, carnitine, and TMAO was small, sloppy, and has been generally discredited by most people who have looked at the science. In fact, there are so many methodological problems with that study that the authors really ought to apologize.

Mark Sisson (linked below by skunkworks) does a good job of looking at the issue, but nutritional biochemist (and now Professor) Chris Masterjohn does the best job of dissecting out the flaws in that study:

http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/cmasterjohn/does-carnitine-from-red-meat-contribute-to-heart-disease-through-intestinal-bacterial-metabolism-to-tmao/

Note that things like soybeans, tomatoes, peas, and potatoes all generate more TMAO than beef--something the widely quoted study failed to mention.

If you're at all interested in the real details of nutrition, Chris is one of the best folks to follow.

[james1947]

Ursus

How can I get out from the habit of a big succulent steak with a bottle of red wine?
Now seriously, I have two questions:
1. How can check if my L - Carnitine supply to my body is sufficient?
2. What is TMAO?
By the way, I am a tomato lover, eat every day.

James  

[runner70]

My incorrect wording, my apologies...I think the "studies" were more on the impact on blood vessels, and there are lots of hits online that suggest a benefit to Peyronies. Also quite a few members here take it.

Im trying to figure out the best course of action. There is so much anecdotal information, and so little official information...it's all very frustrating.

[UrsusMinor]

James, if you're frequently eating big steaks, your Carnitine should be fine!

TMAO is Trimethlyamine N-Oxide. When it breaks down to Trimethylamine, it is the chemical that makes fish smell fishy.

If TMAO was really bad for your heart or arteries, then people who eat lots of fish would have higher rates of heart disease than anyone else. Instead, they tend to have lower levels of heart disease.

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Runner70, "L-Carnitine" and "Acetyl L-Carnitine" are two different chemicals. They are related, but they are not the same.

There is no evidence that L-Carnitine provides benefits for Peyronie's, and all of the online hits I have ever seen on "Carnitine" and "Peyronie's" turn out to be about "Acetyl L-Carnitine." Many of us take Acetyl L-Carnitine. But that's a different compound.

Here's an article on ALC and TMAO: http://jonbarron.org/heart-health/acetyl-l-carnitine-supplements-and-heart-disease

For those who don't want to jump to the link, I'll quote a bit:

A recent study on L-carnitine1 has some people worried about using supplements that contain Acetyl-l-carnitine. There is no reason to be concerned for a number of reasons.

First, this was a limited study ONLY involving 6 people. In fact, the primary data came from mice genetically engineered to have heart disease.

Second, Acetyl-l-carnitine is not L-carnitine. Although they are related, they are not the same substance; they are different molecules. They are broken down differently, used differently, and work in different areas of the body. Carnitine boosts energy by stimulating the body's burning of triglycerides as fuel, and sparing the supply of glycogen stored in the liver for heavier exertion. For this reason, it is utilized by bodybuilders and people looking to lose weight. Acetyl-l-carnitine is not involved in fat metabolism at all—zero, nada. Instead, it works as a powerful antioxidant that crosses the blood-brain barrier (something L-carnitine cannot do) and thus helps prevent brain cell deterioration. Bottom line: there is absolutely no evidence that Acetyl-l-carnitine presents any problems in terms of TMAO and/or heart health.