Peyronie's as a mitochondrial problem?

[UrsusMinor]

All of this may be Old News to everyone here (I've seen some discussion of PQQ, for example), but it has me wondering.

On another thread, someone discussed improving their Peyronie's by applying Coconut Oil.

There was quite a bit of skepticism, with some noting that maybe it was just the oil and massage (and maybe it was), and with one person noting that "the skin is a very effective barrier"

Well, it's an effective barrier to many things. But Coconut Oil is unusual stuff. Like Castor Oil, certain elements of it are absorbed directly through the skin and into the bloodstream. Therefore, it shouldn't be thought of as a strictly external treatment.

Even taken internally, Coconut Oil is rather unusual, and not digested like long-chain fats. Much of Coconut Oil is made up of Medium-Chain Triglycerides (MCTs--a lot of these are found in butter as well). MCTs are absobed directly through the intestine into the portal system. They also cross the mitochondrial walls and are rapidly processed into ketones.

This started me wondering. Two of the oral treatments there is some evidence for are Carnitine/Acetyl L-Carnitine (ALC), and CoQ10.

What do MCTs, Carnitine/ALC, and CoQ10 have in common?

They are all central to the mitochondrial system and the Krebs Cycle that is the heart of the energy system of all advanced (eukaryotic) organisms. They are all involved in turning food into energy.

--Carnitine is needed to transport most fats across the mitochondrial barrier to be turned into energy in the Krebs Cycle.

--CoQ10 is a vital intermediary in the Krebs Cycle.

--MCTs--unlike longer-chain fats--can enter the Krebs Cycle even if there is insufficient Carnitine/ALC in the cell. So it is a "way around" a Carnitine deficiency. So some of the effectiveness of Coconut Oil in Peyronie's might therefore be via a mitochondrial mechanism. (I might add that MCTs also seem to have some value in suppressing autoimmune reactions.)

Of course, we don't know why ALC/Carnitine or CoQ10 have a beneficial effect in the first place. And as far as I know, no one has really explained yet why mitochondrial malfunction would be related to Peyronie's. But if ALC is beneficial, and CoQ10 is beneficial, it wouldn't be a big surprise if Coconut Oil was beneficial: all three of them amp up the Electron Transport Chain and result in more cellular energy.

Just to throw another complication into the mix, Nitric Oxide (NO), is, as noted on one thread, possibly both friend and foe. Certainly it can cause damage as an oxidizing agent. Yet it is also a relaxant, which eases blood pressure in our arteries, and also allows us to have erections. But it has a third function: an excess of NO is apparently a key signalling mechanism in triggering mitochondrial biogenesis. No excess NO, no multiplication of mitochondria.

And, oh, yeah: Blood flow = Oxygen. If it weren't for the Krebs Cycle, we wouldn't need oxygen in the first place. In fact, we'd keep it out of our bodies; it's the main source of free radicals.

Something mighty strange is going on here, and it makes me wonder if all the obsession with collagen and calcification and mechanics aren't looking at the macro side effects of something that is actually a subcellular metabolic disorder.

I was quite deep into biochem and cell biology at one point in my career, but I got sidetracked into other areas of organic chemistry. Now it seems, if you'll excuse the image, as if my penis is pointing me back in that direction.

Well, sort of pointing. It doesn't have a very straight aim these days!  

[melting]

Many thanks for this!

There is some home remedy in the alternatives section by a guy named thacker who used castor oil in his formula(combined with dmso).

Is castor oil a good alternative to the cocunut oil?


Do you think Carnitine/Acetyl L-Carnitine (ALC), CoQ10, Castor oil/cocounut oil/ mct oil can be combined with some DMSO into one mixture?
Im already trying to move substances that might help directly to the plague transdermaly.

I think the penis through its position and espacially the tunica it has problems receiving nutrients through the blood stream.(opposed to lets say an elbow or feet)

[Douglas Hall]

UrsusMinor,

excellent post!

[UrsusMinor]

Hi, melting.

I've never seen the logic of Thacker's formula. Castor Oil doesn't need any help from DMSO. Some of it is absorbed through the skin without any help--and it isn't clear that you ought to maximize Castor Oil absorption. In large quantities, the stuff is quite irritating to the body. I think if Castor Oil is used, it should probably be used in the traditional fashion--as a heated 'Castor Oil Pack.' (Castor Oil itself is hard to work with as an ointment. It is unbelievably sticky, and very hard to get off your hands!)

I'm using ALC suspended in coconut oil as a topical ointment. You could probably use some sort of skin cream as an alternative for the ointment base. (I hasten to note that I continue to take ALC orally, too.)

I don't think CoQ10 can be absorbed through the skin, not even with DMSO. The CoQ10 molecule is just too large to be carried all the way through. So we'll probably just have to keep swallowing pills for that one!

Keep us posted on your experiments--but I'd proceed with caution.

[George999]

A number of guys around here have suspected beta blockers (cardio drugs) of causing their Peyronie's.  And Peyronie's is now even listed as a potential side effect.  In their August issue, Life Extension has an article entitled "Beta-Blockers Cause Lack of Restful Sleep".  Some key quotes from the article:

Beta-blockers have been shown to block the biological pathway of coenyme Q10-dependent enzymes in the body.

They [beta-blockers] have been shown to reduce the production of melatonin via specific inhibition of beta-1 adrenergic receptors.

BINGO???

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2014/aug2014_Beta-Blockers-Cause-Lack-Of-Restful-Sleep_01.htm

[UrsusMinor]

BINGO???

Bingo indeed! I had no idea Peyronie's was now listed as a possible side effect!

And, of course, statins, the blockbuster drugs of all time, drive your CoQ10 levels through the floor. I understand the inserts on statins in Canada are now required to inform patients that the drugs can lower CoQ10 to dangerous levels.  

[NeoV]

Very very interesting George, wow. Could a simple CoQ10 deficiency cause Peyronie's? Hard to say,

The Iranian CoQ10 study suggest that CoQ10 helps mostly via it's effect on the penile arteries, and helped sufferers with arterial issues most, which made up 30% of the subjects!

I currently take 300mg a day and 5 - 10g of creatine. Creatine and CoQ10 are two of the most popular mitochondria enchancing supplements, though to be fair, I had been taking creatine before and during Peyronie's, as well as supplements like Aceytl-L-Carnitine and Arginine.

Good news is I'm doing great and my penis feels even better than a month ago. I take whey protein, creatine, CoQ10, and Pycogenol, with a multivitamin, vitamin D2/D3, and A LOT of olive oil, daily.

[George999]

Could a simple CoQ10 deficiency cause Peyronie's?

I think the answer to that question would probably depend on what other factors were occurring simultaneously at the time.

I doubt that a CoQ10 deficiency could result in Peyronie's in the case of an otherwise totally healthy person.  But if that person was not otherwise totally healthy (like a large percentage of the population) ... well, perhaps.

[UrsusMinor]

Here's an interesting paper on mitochondrial dysfunction and helpful supplements. The whole paper is dowloadable if you fool around enough.

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/259960416_Mitochondrial_dysfunction_and_chronic_disease_treatment_with_natural_supplements

It even mentions Peyronie's, though it doesn't really address it. (And it mentions it in a section on L-Carnitine, rather than ALCar).

[UrsusMinor]

Hey, Neo--I supplement with D as well, but I think it's important to balance it out with K2 (and some A as well). K2 is usually the limiting factor in ensuring that calcium gets into the bones--and stays out of other tissues (presumably including plaque).

Chris Masterjohn has some good articles on K2

http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/on-the-trail-of-the-elusive-x-factor-a-sixty-two-year-old-mystery-finally-solved/#article

http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/nutritional-adjuncts-to-the-fat-soluble-vitamins/

And, you're in Japan, right? So you can get a megadose of K2 just by eating a container of natto. (I've become a big believer in natto; I eat it every day!)

[UrsusMinor]

Interesting research. Some recent result suggest that the reason stem cells can help fix damaged tissues is because they actually transfer some of their undamaged mitochondria to the ailing tissue through nanotubules:

"Researchers announced today that they have identified a protein (Miro1) that increases the transfer of mitochondria from mesenchymal stem cells to lung cells. In work published in The EMBO Journal, the researchers reveal that the delivery of mitochondria to human lung cells can rejuvenate damaged cells.

The migration of mitochondria from mesenchymal stem cells to epithelial cells also helps to repair tissue damage and inflammation linked to asthma-like symptoms in mice."

http://www.stemcellsfreak.com/2014/01/mesenchymal-stem-cells-overcome-damage.html

[Douglas Hall]

Ursus,

A question for you since you understand this better than I do.
Does Pentox have the same effect as Warfarin in blocking K conversion, or do they act in different ways?
From reading the article as a layman, blocking K conversion sounds bad!

[George999]

Douglas, Pentoxifylline is TOTALLY unrelated to Warfarin as to its pharmacology.  Warfarin interferes with clotting by blocking Vitamin K.  That is why users of Coumadin are warned to NOT take Vitamin K supplements as they can defeat the purpose of Coumadin (Warfarin) in "thinning" the blood.  "Thinning", in reference to blood, is a very generalized term which is used to describe a wide range of processes.  The way that Pentoxifylline "thins" the blood has absolutely no connection to Vitamin K.  Pentoxifylline "thins" the blood by making blood cells more flexible so they can fit through smaller openings, as in being able to pass through otherwise impassible damaged blood vessels.  Warfarin would not work for this purpose since it does not change the size of the blood cells, but only blocks the clotting process by its interaction with Vitamin K.  If you take both Pentox and Vitamin K, Vitamin K will not interfere with the "thinning" effect of Pentox AND Pentox will not interfere with the blood clotting effects of Vitamin K OR the amount of Vitamin K in your body.  Other drugs work in a variety of other ways.  Plavix, for example, blocks clotting by interfering with Platelets which are another ingredient affecting the ability of blood to clot.  That is why these drugs are all used selectively, each for a different purpose.  I hope this is a helpful response and addresses your concerns.

[Douglas Hall]

Quite helpful George, thanks!
I figured we they were different, just could not find the text I was looking for on the internet.
Thank you for explaining.

[UrsusMinor]

As George says, Pentox and Warfarin are different animals.

An interesting side note: Doctors tell their patients not to take Vitamin K (or eat too many leafy greens) when taking Warfarin, because K is what Warfarin is designed to interfere with. BUT...

It is Vitamin K1 that is involved in clotting. Vitamin K2 is involved in placing calcium into bone and keeping calcium out of soft tissues. Vitamin K2 seems to be vital for cardiovascular health, as it keeps calcium out of our arteries. More relevant to Peyronie's, it may also keep calcium out of our plaques! (I make sure I get plenty of K2 every day.)

Unfortunately, most doctors prescribing Warfarin don't even know that there are two Vitamin Ks, and that they have completely different roles in the body...

[George999]

Unfortunately, most doctors prescribing Warfarin don't even know that there are two Vitamin Ks, and that they have completely different roles in the body...

Sadly, when it comes to vitamins and other supplements, doctors receive absolutely zero training.  The ONLY thing they understand is prescription meds period.  And their patients suffer as a result.  Patients on cuomadin are often ravaged by arthritic problems that likely are fueled, at least in part, by vitamin K starvation.

[Douglas Hall]

Ursus,

Are you supplementing K2 or getting it from whole foods?

[George999]

Douglas, I am currently supplementing with a broad spectrum Vitamin K product containing K1 and multiple forms of K2.

[UrsusMinor]

I started out supplementing with the MK-7 form of K2 from Jarrow Labs, but it's expensive--and I prefer food when possible. (Does anyone know a whole food source of Pentox?)

Most days recently I eat 3 oz (85 grams, one container) of natto. That contains about 660 mcg of MK-7 K2--which is equivalent to more than 7 of Jarrow's 90 mcg gel caps. Some of the local Japanese groceries sell it for 99 cents, with 3 3-oz containers, so about 33 cents per day...and it's food!

It's food that takes a little getting used to. A lot of Japanese think it's a breakfast thing. (But even some Japanese people think it's utterly gross.)

I've acquired the taste, but I'm still looking for new recipes. At first, I just ate it with a lot of mustard. (I think the fishy sauce packets it comes with are far grosser than the natto!). It's great with Kim Chi, especially if you let them marinate together overnight. And it's fine stuffed into an omelette.

But my favorite right now is natto on buttered toast with cheese melted on it. One container fits perfectly on a slice of bread.

-------------------

I also probably get a fair amount of K2 from egg yolks (6 mcg per yolk), soft cheeses (about 55 mcg per 100 g) and hard cheeses (about 75 mcg per 100 g). Dutch gouda is one of the richest sources of K2.

But all of these are dwarfed by natto, at 775 mcg per 100 g. Also, the animal sources are the MK-4 form, which is far shorter-lived in the body than the MK-7 from natto.

-------------------

Of course, not everybody has Japanese groceries nearby. In that case, I gather it's fairly easy to make your own natto...

http://www.gemcultures.com/soy_cultures.htm

[George999]

(Does anyone know a whole food source of Pentox?)

You ARE joking, right?

[UrsusMinor]

Yeah, afraid so.

Just because I'm 60 doesn't mean I can't be juvenile. (And it seems like a good genetic engineering project. Maybe Pentox Popcorn?)

[UrsusMinor]

As long as we're on the subject of natto, Wikipedia reports:

"A 2009 internet survey in Japan indicated 70.2% of respondents like Natto and 29.8% do not, but out of 29.8% who dislike Natto, about half of them eat natto for its health benefits."

I'd throw in the original reference but it's in Japanese.

[Douglas Hall]

Good posts!
Thanks for the reply!