DMSO and DMSO based Solutions

[slowandsteady]

EGCG, Epigallocatechin gallate, aka green tea extract. Molecular Weight: 458.4. Good, another antifibrotic with a low molecular weight.

[slowandsteady]

Transresveratrol also has a low molecular weight of 228.24 Da, which might be great for localized application. Apparently transdermal resveratrol (with DMSO) doesn't result in a particularly high peak blood levels, for which the oral route works better.

[ocelot556]

DMSO is used in Russia as a treatment for arthritis and related inflammations, I remember reading that somewhere. I used DMSO on my plaque during the first acute inflammatory phase of my disease. It worked well. Only Pentox had a better effect on the pain, which I had to wait a year to get an Rx for.

[slowandsteady]

Thanks Hawk, that link was very helpful.

So, from that source we read that "[n]onionized molecules of low molecular wight are transported through the skin with DMSO". I was a little surprised that weight was mentioned instead of molecule size.

One substance that has been tested with DMSO for transport across the skin is morphine sulfate, which has a molecular weight of  668.76 (Da, presumably). Insulin is noted to be too big for passage at 5808 Da. Nattokinase is almost 5 times bigger than that; that's obviously not going to work.

Items in blue should be light enough to work well with DMSO. Items in red look to be too heavy. It looks like enzymes tend to be heavier molecules.

Molecular weights of popular anti-Peyronies Disease supplements
vitamin A = 286.46 Da
vitamin D = 396.65 Da
vitamin E = 430.72 Da (alpha tocopherol)
vitamin E = 416.68 Da (gamma tocopherol)
vitamin K2-MK4 = 444.65 Da
vitamin K2-MK7 = 649 Da (note how the additional sidechains increase the weight)
niacinamide = 122.12 Da
PABA = 137.1 Da
Acetyl-L-Carnitine HCl = 239.70 Da
magnesium ascorbate (vitamin c) = 374.55
rutin = 610.53 Da
astragaloside IV = 784.97 Da
horse chestnut extract = 1131.26 Da
bromelain = 22500 Da
papain = 23000 Da
serrapeptase ~= 60000 Da

A couple of nice findings from the paper Hawk linked:

The authors recorded that topical DMSO in man exerted a significant effect on the pathological deposition of collagen in human postirradiation subcutaneous fibrosis but did not appear to change the equilibrium of collagen metabolism in normal tissue.

and:

Berliner and Ruhmann7 found that DMSO inhibited fibroblastic proliferation in vitro.

My first recipe contains the first ingredients through niacinamide (except for the K2-MK7).

s&s

[Hawk]

I am sorry.  I used to know the molecular weight of transport but I am not sure now since it has been a while since I even thought about it.  You may find some info on this site.  It may be somewhere on this site however. http://www.dmso.org/articles/information/herschler.htm

[slowandsteady]

Hint of the day: While SSKI has been recommended for topical application with DMSO, Lugol's solution is not. Lugol's has molecular iodine in addition to KI and will cause irritation when used with DMSO.

[young25]

I too am interested in DMSO, slowandsteady let me know if you see a positive effect, I may also try it sooner than later.

[slowandsteady]

"Nattokinase is a relatively small size protein with molecular weight of 27.7 kDa [13]. The protein radius, calculated to be 21 Å".

Hawk, do you know what range of particle sizes DMSO works best with?

s&s

[slowandsteady]

I have never used DMSO as a personal treatment of any kind but I have used it as veterinary treatments on animals so I am pretty familiar with it.

For starters, applying a layer of DMSO first will never work because DMSO is absorbed almost on contact.  You can watch a drop of DMSO disappear.  In fact you can taste DMSO within seconds of getting it on your hand.  This indicates to me that it must move through vessel walls quickly.

I don't apply it first, but in a mixture. You may have a point that it would best to apply the mix without DMSO first, and after a while the DMSO.

Next, molecular weight IS EVERYTHING  with any DMSO solution.  It carries EVERYTHING within a certain molecular weight into the tissue.  This includes toxins, impurities, clothing dye, etc.

It carries NOTHING outside of this specific molecular weight range so mixing those things with DMSO does nothing.

You best know that nothing is getting carried along with the solution you mix (impurities) and you must know how the solution you mix will effect the tissue.

I find reassuring that all of my ingredients are vitamins or at least orally safe. I'll watch for irritation.

Finally, you have no real control and no research to determine how deep the DMSO solution penetrates before it is carried away from the site.

I don't need it to go far, just into the tunica albuginea. It's a fibrous envelope, it's connective tissue, and so doesn't have a lot of circulation. That's why I'm hoping the topical route will be beneficial.

s&s

[Hawk]

I have never used DMSO as a personal treatment of any kind but I have used it as veterinary treatments on animals so I am pretty familiar with it.

For starters, applying a layer of DMSO first will never work because DMSO is absorbed almost on contact.  You can watch a drop of DMSO disappear.  In fact you can taste DMSO within seconds of getting it on your hand.  This indicates to me that it must move through vessel walls quickly.

Next, molecular weight IS EVERYTHING  with any DMSO solution.  It carries EVERYTHING within a certain molecular weight into the tissue.  This includes toxins, impurities, clothing dye, etc.

It carries NOTHING outside of this specific molecular weight range so mixing those things with DMSO does nothing.

You best know that nothing is getting carried along with the solution you mix (impurities) and you must know how the solution you mix will effect the tissue.

Finally, you have no real control and no research to determine how deep the DMSO solution penetrates before it is carried away from the site.

[slowandsteady]

I got a few 2 ounce cobalt blue bottles with eyedroppers from Ebay.

Recipe No. 1
DMSO: 10 half droppers full
Vitamin A: 40000 IU
Vitamin D: 20000 IU
Vitamin E: Jarrow Toco-Sorb, contents of 2 softgels
Vitamin K: 20 mg from the Thorne drops
ALC: 125 mg

I used it last night (10 drops or so) without any irritation this morning. I plan on first trying nattokinase by itself and then If that is gentle then adding it to the mix. This recipe has a slight orange tinge from the palm oil in the vitamin E I used.

s&s

[slowandsteady]

You can always make your own. EDTA is over the counter now. ALC of course you can buy, just like DMSO. My thought is that vitamin K (K2-MK4 in the oil-based Thorne drops) might be just as good as EDTA.

I think it's a good recipe though.

My urologist recommended over a year ago that I try this gel that he had a natural pharmacy make for me. I posted about it a while back - it's a topical ointment made of EDTA (a chelating agent, presumably to prevent/ameliorate calcification) and ALC. The drawback? It costs 100 dollars a month. I struggled to continue it for 5 months, and saw no improvement. I think it was because I was in the inflammatory phase - being just out of college, I couldn't afford the full treatment, and since I couldn't see visible improvement in 5 months I stopped treatment.

After a new inflammatory phase and new plaques, in addition to a better-paying job, I've restarted the treatment -- but I was wondering if I could bolster the effects of the ointment by applying a layer of DMSO before applying the ointment. I was simply worried about the safety of getting the treatment elsewhere in the penis. As my situation looks more and more grim, I might feel as if I have less to lose and try it out. I will report my findings at that time. I don't even know if the EDTA or ALC will be carried transdermally by the DMSO or not, but I do remember how well just the DMSO worked to help the pain and redness of inflammation when I was using it.

[ocelot556]

My urologist recommended over a year ago that I try this gel that he had a natural pharmacy make for me. I posted about it a while back - it's a topical ointment made of EDTA (a chelating agent, presumably to prevent/ameliorate calcification) and ALC. The drawback? It costs 100 dollars a month. I struggled to continue it for 5 months, and saw no improvement. I think it was because I was in the inflammatory phase - being just out of college, I couldn't afford the full treatment, and since I couldn't see visible improvement in 5 months I stopped treatment.

After a new inflammatory phase and new plaques, in addition to a better-paying job, I've restarted the treatment -- but I was wondering if I could bolster the effects of the ointment by applying a layer of DMSO before applying the ointment. I was simply worried about the safety of getting the treatment elsewhere in the penis. As my situation looks more and more grim, I might feel as if I have less to lose and try it out. I will report my findings at that time. I don't even know if the EDTA or ALC will be carried transdermally by the DMSO or not, but I do remember how well just the DMSO worked to help the pain and redness of inflammation when I was using it.

[slowandsteady]

Other things that come to mind as potential ingredients for a DMSO recipe are niacinamide with taurine and SSKI or Lugol's solution. Oh, and let's not forget vitamin E.

[newguy]

When I looked into topical ibuprofen, the available studies appear to suggest that in knee injuries it is absorbed through the skin and into the cartilage in much higher doses than oral doses. This at least shows that sometimes applying topically, can be as, if not more effective than oral doses. Therefore maybe using a DMSO delivery system with various substances could be more achievable than we'd first think. As hawk points out, it likely depends on the substances in question. Still, I think it's an area worthy of exploration. If substances can reach the area, I would think that it'd sometimes make sense to topically apply rather than orally.

As a child I suffered bad burns to my hand, as was told that it would be scarred for life. A school teacher advised me to apply vitamin E topically each day. I did this and in time the scar went away completely. Of course , this is not a direct comparison, but I doubt the scar would've cleared up with oral vitamin E (unless of course it would've gone naturally). Therefore getting to a problem area topically is surely a viable route if it is achievable. I'm not suggesting that using this method is an easy or effective as inflammation or scarring on the skin, but maybe it can be the next best thing.

An argued against this approach I suppose is that DMSO could transport anything into the body. A careful approach would therefore be needed. Another argued against this approach is that some would say that peyronies is more of a whole body disease which has manifested itself in the shape of peyronie's. That's valid, though I'm of the opinion that in some individuals the problem is more localised, and in others it's more of a whole body issue. Just my view. Besides, if someone applies something topically, theres nothing to stop them taking oral supplements too. I'll watch this thread with interest.

[slowandsteady]

The one vitamin we know for sure would penetrate the skin is vitamin D, since this is how it works in nature.

Normally, it's produced on the skin and absorbed over a period of a day or two. Soap and water will take it right off.

s&s

[newguy]

I do think that this method of treatment does hold some promise, but its very much a case of entering the unknown as there are so many substances that could be used, and so many variables at play. Maybe mixing several potential treatments together (vitamins, serrapeptase etc)and applying them could make a difference over time. Any treatment, even if effective, may take a long time to actually bring about results, so using individual substances would be troublesome, as cycling through them may not be a useful approach. My hunch is that this could be a very good delivery system for peyronie's though, so I'm glad some are willing to give it a try.

[Hawk]

Keep in mind you need to know the molecular weight of a substance because DMSO only transports substances within a certain molecular weight range.  (I do not remember the range off the top of my head but it is easy to look up.)

[slowandsteady]

It's about time someone gave this neglected thread some lovin'.

I first found out about DMSO through the resveratrol forum at imminst.org. Folks there were discussing it as a means to enhance transdermal absorption of resveratrol. Another application was using DMSO and resveratrol topically for eczema, where it was reported to work very well for some. The forum's goal was to get high peak plasma levels of resveratrol. The conclusion there was that transdermal application with DMSO was not the best solution for achieving this, but that it might be useful for parts of the body like joints that don't have a lot of blood circulation.

Question: does the tunica albuginea area affected by the plaques get a lot of blood? It's a "fibrous envelope" according to wikipedia. The corpus cavernosum certainly does, but that's not what's damaged.

Here are my ideas for a few things to try with DMSO:

resveratrol: it has fibrolytic properties, including in pulmonary and cardiac fibrosis (PMID 17875610). PMID 17943548 is interesting too; subcutaneous injections of resveratrol reduced adhesions that were induced in rats.

serrapeptase: some evidence for it helping to clear scar tissue. It was helpful in fibro-cystic breast disease (PMID 2688125). I wonder though if this weren't more a result of it breaking down biofilms of pathogens.

nattokinase: supposedly a strong fibrolytic (here's some data from company selling it). From PMID 16899918, "In vitro and in vivo studies have consistently demonstrated the potent pro-fibrinolytic effect of the enzyme".

vitamin A and the other oil soluble vitamins: Looking back on some of the earlier postings on the Thackers formula, I see that it included cod liver oil, which is a good source of the oil soluble vitamin A. From an LEF.org article on fibrinogen, "High serum vitamin A and beta-carotene levels have been associated with reduced fibrinogen levels in humans". A good DMSO recipe might include the 4 fat soluble vitamins (A, D, E, and K) too.

I'll be trying some of these out and reporting back.

s&s

Edit:
potassium iodide might be important too. One hypothesis I'm researching is whether low potassium iodide intake causes the abnormal scarring in Peyronies Disease (Peyronies Disease is more common in those with gout and high blood sugar, IIRC). I'd like to try topical SSKI if I could find a source ...

[Nemo]

Out of nostalgia, I was reading the thread on "Thacker's Formula."  I recall now that I used TF for about 9 months I believe, starting in Jan. of 2004.  At that time, I had some distal flacidity but no bend or pain.  I was using TF to see if it would do something to the scarring causing the distal flacidity.  It didn't, but it did improve my erections, very quickly in fact, as I recall.  I also remember bouts of skin blistering/peeling in the early days of using it - nothing bad enough to make me stop though.  Eventually, it seemed like it wasn't doing anything for me (other than the erection quality), so I stopped using it. 

Anyone else have memories (fond or otherwise) of Thacker's Formula?  I remember being very excited at the time as it was getting a lot of positive posts.  I really thought we were on to something!  Care to share your experience?

Nemo

[Tim468]

Dear Michael Baker

Thanks or sharing your thoughts. I was disappointed with the references - they are all anecdotal, and have no peer reviewed science. The reasons for this are well described by George, but in fact it IS possible to study non-patentable medications for other uses to "serve humanity", even though the profit motive is absent. I have participated in multi-center studies of Advil to treat chronic inflammation in cystic fibrosis, and no one was going to get rich doing that.

If someone is willing to try it, I hope to hear from them. I would be unwilling personally to try it. YMMV

Tim

[George999]

Sometimes a "product"s claims are just so off the wall that one has to sleep on the whole nine yards before beginning to really see whats there.  In the case of "activated" MMS as promoted by Jim Humble, I can only conclude this:  Most of the work done in Africa on this was done by "The Malaria Solution" based in Reno Nevada.  The guys behind Malaria Solution appear to have a mining/mineralogy background, money, and a passion to serve humanity.  Jim Humble seems to be the main innovator in this venture.  Personally, I would like to see a little press on this in Africa itself, but if it is indeed a scam, then they have scammed some pretty reputable people who seemingly are involved with them.  I see little motivation for a scam, since they have made this thing so open that there is little money to be made from it.  So the question becomes, "If this thing is so good, why has it not gotten more press and benefited more people?". 

I think there are indeed answers to that question.  First of all, one has to understand that in order for a treatment to be approved, lots of very expensive testing is required.  And this is not the kind of product that could bring forth that kind of investment easily.  Secondly, although I know that Chlorine Dioxide is considered safe at sufficient dilution, it is still a potent substance and this therapy introduces it to the body in a very reactive state.  That alone would scare regulators to death, or if it didn't it should.  Using it to treat dying villagers in Africa is one thing, using it for things like Peyronies in the US is another.  At this point, the reality is, we really have no data on what the potential initial random side effects might be, nor do we have long term data to indicate long term outcomes.

And that leads to a third concern for me.  If I was dying of HIV or even Cancer, I would latch on to something like this without a lot of hesitation.  But Peyronies?  Or foot fungus?  Some of you might be willing to chance it, but I can tell you, not me.  I would be looking at a lot more conservative treatments than that.

Yet another concern for me is the whole known pharmacology surrounding Chlorine Dioxide.  For those of you who might not understand what Chlorine Dioxide is, it is actually probably one of the most whiz bang wide spectrum pathogen killers known to man.  It destroys bacteria, viruses, fungi, and parasites.  Yet it does so in concentrations that are not discernibly toxic to people.  For this reason it is rapidly replacing common chlorination for water supplies and it is on the short list of potential solutions for Homeland Security people in the US.  It is even used to cleanse human blood of HIV.  But REMEMBER, current use is all OUTSIDE of the body.  This treatment, for the first time, moves that treatment to INSIDE the body.  Hello!

Another aspect to consider is that there is simply no known way that this treatment could work against NON-INFECTIOUS afflictions like Cancer, Peyronies, and other forms of Fibrosis, UNLESS that NON-INFECTIOUS disease is in fact driven by an infectious disease, and that can happen.  My suspicion is that Mr. Humble has seen Cancer knocked out with this stuff in Africa, but in reality, it knocked out the underlying HIV and THAT cured the Cancer.  I extremely doubt that it can cure a typical case of Cancer, because the underlying pharmacology is just not there, UNLESS all Cancers are pathogenic at the core and that would be a huge stretch.  And of course Peyronies would be in the same ballpark with Cancer, not likely.

So to sum up, the likelyhood of this working on Peyronies in my estimation is slim, and the risks are high with Jim's oral solution, but at least it has APPARENTLY been tried on a wide scale.  On the other hand, at this point it would seem that we have no more than a small handful of people, if that, who have actually tried administering it transdermally with DMSO.  Personally, I see all kinds of caution flags here.  I DEEPLY appreciate that Michael has shared this with us, and I do think it is something that needs to be investigated, but personally, I would proceed with a whole lot of caution.

- George

[Mick]

Hawk:

See miraclemineral.org

Mick

[MichaelBaker]

points taken hawk,

"Jim Humble MMS Protocol" a simple google search yields 1290 hits
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=jim+humble+mms+protocol.

This is a relatively new and unknown protocol. Very few have tried it, just seems to good to be true. There are a few forums for this protocol already, and it REALLY is beyond the scope of what I have time or inclination for. I do know that is seems to dissolve plaque and that is what ties it into Peyrones.

The activated MMS protocol combined with dmso, magnesium and iodine has only been tried by one person that I know, but then again, I am just an unknown name on the internet. I do freely offer up my time to provide what has worked for me and others I know personally, There are others in this forum already experimenting with DMSO, this is mainly for them, I feel that the MMS adds another potential booster for what they are trying to do. The magnesium and iodine are essential for healthy cell development. If this concontion is going to work, a week is probably all the time you would need to see improvement, milage will of course vary.

[Hawk]

Michael,

1.  Are you saying you have Peyronies Disease and this helped?

2. Have you gotten 5 men to try this on Peyronies Disease or for other things like nice feet?

3. If the 5 men had Peyronies Disease, what forum were they on?

4. I have been on every Peyronies Disease forum around for a some years and I never heard of Jack Humble.  Who is he and where did you meet him?


You must understand that you cannot say I am too busy to go into details, just try this undocumented concoction and trust the integrity of an unknown name on the internet.

[MichaelBaker]

I came to this forum to give back to society. I felt compelled to help others in a way that I was helped.

The real story is the MMS protocol by Jim Humble. I don't have the time to go into that side of it for this forum. The activated sodium chlorite is his and I have personally seen mind blowing results from it. I have gotten over a dozen people started on it. It is truly amazing stuff.

The mixture I came up with was trial and error, I burnt the side of my face for a week, but the age spot I applied it to has faded drastically, enough to not be noticable anymore. I actually made the formula to be applied to my feet. That is how I fine tuned what I put in it. My feet haven't look this good since I went to high school gym class and got some fungus that I never could get rid of, at least until now. My feet are soft and toenails look as healthy as ever.

The part of this that would apply to Peronies is what it did to my scar, raised and a hard white crest. It softened and is now pink and seems to be fading still. That is why I posted to this forum. I have had no erection problems.

I understand the fear of dmso. I did a lot of reading. I know that the finest race horses in the world get dmso and some of the greatest names in sports also covertly use the stuff. I would never perpetuate a hoax, at least I believe I am honest. My hope is that some brave soul out there tries this and gets results similar to mine and feels compelled to report back to the group and maybe a lot of you would have favorable results. I could at least tell St Pete that I did try to give back a little.

[George999]

Michael, welcome and thank you so much for sharing this information.  While I personally do not touch DMSO, I know a number of people who frequent this forum do.  And I am sure that there are some out there who are really looking for new approaches in using it.  Certainly what works for one person may not work for another AND what is harmless to one person might create a toxic reaction for another.  After all, even peanuts can be deadly to some of us.  It is also EXTREMELY important that it be used correctly to avoid potentially devastating unintended consequences.  So I fully understand your disclaimers and anyone planning on trying it should study its use very carefully including posts on this forum by Hawk and Liam.  And this is NOT to say don't use it, it is rather to say use it very cautiously and with great respect.  You are also dead on in noting that these types of approaches are anathema to the drug companies.  They are actually very up front in explaining that they could never make enough money from selling generic commodity based solutions to even begin to pay for the R+D that goes into getting any potential treatment approved.  And, unfortunately, our government(s) do(es) not consider public health a high enough priority to fund this type of research that private enterprise cannot profitably perform.  So all I can say is that I hope some daring individual will give it a try and hopefully it proves to be a breakthrough that can benefit many.  So thank you so much for posting the information.  - George

[Tim468]

Welcome Michael Baker,

Could you share how you came up with the ingredients that you did, and why the proportions?

Tim

[MichaelBaker]

Hello group,

I just joined after I was doing some research on DMSO. I have been using DMSO in a concoction I developed for a scar and joint pain. It has worked extremely well in removing plaque and lessening scarring. It is up to you to do your homework with these chemicals and decide for yourself if it is safe for you. I will assume no liability for your errors or lack of judgement.
I only ask that you report back with the results of your own experiments. Good or bad.

I am sure this post will be given very critical reveiw for the lack of previous knowledge on my experiment, but I am sure that this will work for your affliction also (Peyronies). The DMSO is only one part of the mixture, but it is important.

Possibly more important is a product now called MMS. It is sodium chorite %28 solution, activated with lemon juice. If you can get past all the miraculous claims and try it, it has been reported to strip the plaque from clogged arteries. please go slow on this off you have any heart problems. If you want to try it before you put it anywhere special, try brushing your teeth with it for a week and see if your dental plaque is gone.

To strengthen cells and heal scarring I use a transdermal magnesium oil. I have bought it from Global Light, I dont get paid for this, buy it where you want, just make sure that you get the natural oil and not the jell.

I use natural iodine in the solution, it also promotes healthy cell function.

I use 99.9 DMSO, again buy it where you want.

Now the recipe.

20 drops of MMS

add 100 drops of lemon juice, real lemon from the plastic lemon at the grocery store works great.

let these two ingredients sit for three minutes and the acid from the lemon juice will react with the MMS. There will be a very strong smell of Chlorine gas from the reaction.
Now add one tablespoon of the magnesium oil
Now add one tablespoon of the DMSO
Now add one dropper of the iodine

stir, you will feel heat from the mixing of these things, try it on some tender skin and look for an adverse reaction. If your skin is to sensitive for the solution at 100% dilute with a small amount of distilled water.

when you get the strength that wont burn willie apply and let sit, do this as many times per day that you are able. As long as the solution has that chlorine smell it will be working, discard after the smell of chlorine is no longer present.

I am sure that the flames will be coming, but if just one or two of you try this and report back with your "cure" then the others will follow suit.

I make no claim as to being anything other than the developer of this recipe and place it freely in the public domain for all to use for personal use only. I assume no liability for any results that you may have. We just may have to develope our own health remedies when the drug companies cannot make enough profit from easily obtainable homeopathic remedies such as this.

Michael Baker

[soiDisant]

Thanks for the welcome, Hawk.

I was indeed aware that the "1000 posts" thread was a restored archive. But your comment has me wondering whether or not DMSO has fallen "out of favor" for forum members; and if so, why?

[Hawk]

soiDisant,

Welcome to the forum.  I pretty much agree with your assessment

If it doesn't wor, it doesn't work; so long as it does no harm.

The other 1000 post thread was an achieve retrieved after it was deleted from a forum that is now pretty much dead.   Since it is an old archive, I think you will actually find few active members still around that use it although a few probably do.

[soiDisant]

All,

I've read this thread and the other (1000 posts) related to DMSO. The only problem I see in trying the stuff is the potential for permanent damage. I might be wrong - it was alot to read, after all - but I saw no posts complaining of such damage. If it doesn't wor, it doesn't work; so long as it does no harm.

But at least one person complained about diminished erectile function while using DMSO. Can others weigh in on their experience of DMSO from this perspective? I would be most grateful to glean some kind of consensus WRT the stuff's potential for impairing erectile function. 

Thanks.

[Liam]

Sorry Soxfan.  I call it like I see it.  My post represents my opinion just as yours do.  Although I am stongly opposed to this concoction, I would not want to remove the topic.  I am also glad you post your opinion on it.

If in the more than two years I have been posting here and reading about Thackers I had heard of one legitimate scientific study showing positive results, I might be singing a different tune.

This and the fact DMSO is a transdermal agent is the reason I will not try it. 

Go ahead and try it.  Just understand there are those who think its a hoax.  And, if it turns out to be the cure, I will eat crow, happily.

[soxfan]

If anyone wishes to discuss the Thacker formula without being subjected to ridicule from people who have not used the DAMNED thing then please contact me via pm, THANKS!!!!

[Liam]

I have heard from a veterinarian that it can be demonstrated that certain dyes can be put on the palm of the hand and when DMSA is added the color will penetrate to the back of the hand.  I do know that you can often literally taste DMSO within a minute of getting it on your hands.

Now mix with vinegar and castor oil and soak your penis...

Hawk is right to encourage using caution.

This "formula" is ridiculous.  Use the DMSO to clean your floors, the vinegar (ACV) on your salad and...well... you know what the casto oil is good for.

I'm glad this info is here and you are free to try it.  I just have to throw in my objections.

BTW, I have a formula: Windex and olive oil (OO) for a "Big Fat Greek Penis" 

[Hawk]

DMSO is a transdermal agent.  It will transport ANYTHING & EVERYTHING below a certain molecular weight into the tissue.  That could include everything from contaminants on your hands to dyes in any cloth that come in contact with it.

I have heard from a veterinarian that it can be demonstrated that certain dyes can be put on the palm of the hand and when DMSA is added the color will penetrate to the back of the hand.  I do know that you can often literally taste DMSO within a minute of getting it on your hands.

Wash your skin where applying it, as well as your hands, and make sure there are no dyes or contaminates on any cloth that comes in contact with the DMSO.

Wash your hands when finished to get any DMSO off before handling other things that could have chemical contaminates.

[whygodwhy]

thanks guys, ill go ahead and order the 99.9% DMSO

im looking forward to trying out the thacker's formula.  i read in a post that dmso can be risky, is that true?  i know its bad to get in your eyes or swallow (ie common sense)  but if i do it wrong somehow could it make my Peyronies Disease worse?

[soxfan]

im not sure whether or not i should buy the 16 oz dmso listed below or pay extra for a brand from peyronies-disease-help.com that has msm and paba in it as well:

http://www.natural-complementary-medicine.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=18

its twice as much money for a quater the amount

will a cheaper brand thats 99% pure work just as well?
and does it matter if i get gel or spray or concentrate?

WGW,

Just get the plain 99.9 dmso just as Thacker himself suggested. The ms, paba and other stuff is not necessary.

Cheers.

[Liam]

WGW,

IMHO, You will get the same results from either. 

[whygodwhy]

im not sure whether or not i should buy the 16 oz dmso listed below or pay extra for a brand from peyronies-disease-help.com that has msm and paba in it as well:

http://www.natural-complementary-medicine.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=18

its twice as much money for a quater the amount

will a cheaper brand thats 99% pure work just as well?
and does it matter if i get gel or spray or concentrate?

[Hawk]

I am open minded but I did not see the specifics of ONE SINGLE study.  If those unbelievable statements are true, there must be a ton of information available on the studies, the details of what controls were in place, the results, etc.

If you know of any such documented studies by reputable, unbiased sources, please give us the unformation.

If you don't, then it remains nothing but another outlandish internet claim.

[soxfan]

Gents,

The following article about dmso is a must read, imho.

DMSO’s Many Potential Medical Applications
Since the early 1960s, DMSO’s pharmacological actions and efficacy have been documented in hundreds of laboratory studies. According to Dr. Stanley Jacob, DMSO holds promise in treating the following conditions:

Alzheimer’s disease. DMSO has been shown to dissolve amyloids, the proteins that occur in the hallmark brain lesions of patients with Alzheimer’s and almost invariably lead to the functional loss and eventual death of brain cells.

Arthritis. With its ability to penetrate tissues, DMSO shows value in reducing pain and inflammation in osteoarthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, and possibly gout.

Atherosclerosis. In laboratory animals, DMSO has demonstrated its ability to retard the development of atherosclerosis induced by dietary cholesterol, as well as suppress the accumulation of cholesterol in tissues despite severe hypercholesterolemia (elevated blood levels of cholesterol).

Down’s syndrome. Researchers have noted that when children born with Down’s syndrome were treated with DMSO, mental and neurological functions improved in a number of areas.

Drug extravasation injury. When chemotherapy drugs exude into surrounding tissues (extravasate), the effects are highly damaging. DMSO application significantly improved anthracycline-associated extravasation tissue injury in a study conducted by Stephen B. Strum, MD, a member of the Life Extension Foundation’s Scientific Advisory Board.

Fibromyalgia. According to Dr. Jacob, 70% of fibromyalgia patients he treated with DMSO for several years experienced benefits with no side effects. He believes these effects were due to pharmacological actions of DMSO such as free-radical scavenging, analgesia, anti-inflammation, softening of scar tissue, reduction of muscle spasms, and stimulation of healing.

Herpes. DMSO has been used to enhance penetration of alpha-interferon ointment in the treatment of herpes.

Interstitial cystitis. Instilling DMSO in the urinary bladder is an FDA-approved palliative treatment for this chronic inflammatory condition.

Malignancy. Researchers concluded DMSO exerts a significant survival advantage in gastric cancer.

Plastic surgery adjunct. DMSO has been shown to aid healing and reduce pain and swelling.

Prostatitis. Significant symptomatic relief occurred when DMSO was injected by catheter into the prostatic urethra.

Reflex sympathetic dystrophy. DMSO helps relieve the pain of this condition, an autonomic nervous system disorder characterized primarily by overwhelming pain in the extremities. Dr. Jacob notes that in Holland, a physician is breaking the law if he does not prescribe topical DMSO for reflex sympathetic dystrophy.

Scleroderma. In basic work done at the Cleveland Clinic, topical DMSO was found to have an anti-inflammatory effect while increasing blood supply to the skin.

Spinal cord injury. Data shows that if DMSO is given intravenously within the first 45-60 minutes after injury, the number of laboratory animals that recover was much higher than in those not receiving DMSO. Dr. Jacob says this is an area he would like to pursue, noting, “If we have 10,000 severe spinal cord injuries per year in the US—quadriplegic and paraplegic—there could be fewer patients who will need long-term care.”

Stroke. DMSO combined with a sugar that fuels energy production was well tolerated in elderly stroke patients, and could be of benefit in reducing neurological disability after stroke.

Ulcerative colitis. In controlled human studies, orally administered DMSO produced some improvement in the condition.
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2007/jul2007_cover_dmso_02.htm

bodoo2u,

I get my dmso(99.9% pure, 16oz liquid)  from the following on-line retailer. I of course have no affiliation with the company, just trying to be of help.
http://www.herbalremedies.com/dmso.html?source=google&engine=adwords!32&keyword=%28dmso%29&match_type=&gclid=CJym6rzQpo8CFQGdPAodqkIcRw

Cheers.



 

[bodoo2u]

Hawk,

I didn't mean to write "cure"; I know it's just a treatment that may or may not yield results. I still may or may not use it, especially if it causes scarring. Heck, It's funny-looking enough without adding scars to it.

Liam,

Thanks for reposting the instructions. You guys are the greatest.

Hey, I'm getting more comfortable with weating my traction device under my clothes. I guess I look like an old man when I'm trying to climb stairs, because I don't lift up my legs very high. LOL

[Liam]

Here is a post from Barry who personally spoke with Thacker.  Thacker claimed to be 90% cured.    It took me 2 minutes to find this post just by scrolling back through older posts.  For the sake of disclosure and honesty, I am not a believer in this method.  But, this is the 411 

By request I am posting a newly revised version of the Thacker Formula to this topic.


Thacker Formula-Revised…12/17/05

An Informational,

My communications with Thacker confirmed much of what was believed from the little information initially given. The discussions covered the following, Thackers use and results of his Grandfathers Formula…..Doctor Thacker, Thacker stated that Peyronies Disease starting with Doctor Thacker, who suffered from Peyronies Disease, as well as his uncles, father and himself. It seems to indicate in theory that Thackers family from his Grandfather to himself had a Genetic Pre-Disposition to this disease. Thacker indicated to me that DMSO and its quality was of the utmost importance, as expressed to him by Doctor Thacker and clarified many times. Unfortunatly, the source of Doctor Thackers DMSO is unknown. This does not negate the other two ingredients in any way and their importance to the formula. Thacker confirmed the 70%-20%-10% mixture as what was used by him. Thacker did stress that a high quality Apple Cider Vinegar be used, I told him that many men were using organic ACV and he did not agree nor disagree, but additional research indicated and confirmed that Organic ACV should be used. Castor Oil is generic in nature, so any brand will do. Thacker said that his Grandfather used the formula on men with Dupuytrens Contracture, aka (DC), he did not mention results, but it was used never the less.

Taking nothing from Thacker, it must be understood that he was for the most part a “user” of this formula, and did not in fact know much as to what the components did or why. His Grandfather mixed it for him; Doctor Thacker pre-mixed the formula, and gave it to him as needed with instructions on how to apply it.



I suggest strict self-obedience with the treatment and trust that it will work. It takes some time.
You must keep the wrap soaked during application.
The garlic odor from the application could be bathed off and a scented cream such as Aloe Vera applied to the penis after application, but the internal odor that omits through the skin pores and breath, is something you have to live with, and I can only suggest strong breath mints and wear cologne to envelop the smell. That will usually cover it. My own personal research has concluded that gently massaging the plaque after application is acceptable as long as it does not incur pain. Do this for about five-ten minutes.


THE FOLLOWING IS A DIRECT QUOTE FROM THACKER TO ME

QUOTE
“I usually followed my evening application with a hot bath and massaged the plaque forcefully but not painfully. It took about three to four months for me to start seeing results and then positive results started coming quickly. The hard nodules will suddenly start getting soft. They may break apart. Once that starts happening things improve fast. You should realize increased erection quality right off the bat. The DMSO
will smooth the muscle in the penis.”
“Once the hard nodules start getting soft or breaking up into bits. It took about six more months of application and message to finish it off. My penis then healed almost back to pre-Peyronies Disease. I would say that I am 90% where I was. I no longer have any hard pieces of plaque in my penis. I have one small indentation left where a huge piece of plaque was that did not heal all the way back. The curve will reduce slowly as plaque resolves. I started with a 50 degree curve when it was at its worse, and now, no noticeable curve”
END QUOTE


Mixing Procedure,

You MUST, wash your hands with any type of hand or body soap prior to the mixing process.
The formula CAN be premixed. How many days in advance were not discussed with Thacker but all indications lead to 3-5 days. The premixed batch must be sealed when not in use and kept at room temperature. (DO NOT refrigerate premixed batches). The formula is comprised of 70%DMSO-20%Apple Cider Vinegar-10%Castor OIL. In order to mix the formula use three separate 10cc syringes and draw the liquid up to the 1, 2, or 7 mark depending on the liquid. Then squirt each one into a small glass bowl and mix well with an eyedropper.


Application Method.

Warm the formula prior to use; this should be common to its application. Soak the mixture on a flannel sheet of cloth (NO coloring, MUST be white) or an appropriately sized strip of sterilized gauze. Wrap the cloth completely around the penis, then to hold it in place use white medical tape, rubber bands or uncolored string. Do this application once daily (the evening hours would be preferable to most), and as consistently as possible through the week. The duration in time should not be less then 1/2 hour, although 1-2 hours is favored. DO NOT refrigerate pre- mixed batches, if you do, throw that batch away. Also, if you get redness or blistering, discontinue use and apply Diaper Rash Medicine or Aloe Vera to ease the problem and correct it. Once corrected continue treatment.


CAUTION!
DMSO is a very safe solvent when purchased in a pharmaceutical grade of at least 99.96% purity.
While the bottle is open and/or the batch is being pre-mixed be very cautious and not get it into you eyes. If you do go the nearest E.R, they will know how to treat you with an eyewash.
Also, pure DMSO is not to be taken internally. The same conditions apply as to the above remedy.

DMSO is a very powerful delivery agent, meaning that it will transfer thru your skin and into your body anything on your hands, so it MUST be used under Sterile Conditions.


DMSO on line Purchase Sites,

www.webvitamin.com Natures gift
www.lifesvigor.com Natures Gift
www.herbalremedies.com Clinic Service Co.
www.kornax.com Rich’s



I am not a Doctors and do not profess to be, I am however, an avid researchers and bring this treatment to you with no promise of efficacy but, but most assuredly a sparkle of hope.
This formula is an ALTERNATIVE, non-Medicinal treatment. Years of research have been invested by me and another Peyronies Disease survivor who’s research efforts played a solid role in putting this formula together thus allowing me to put this formula in writing for all Peyronies Disease sufferers to try. Your Doctors may attempt to convince you that the use of this treatment is flippant; the ultimate decision to use this treatment is up to you. The general statement Doctors use is, “it has no basis in science”, to that I say, tell that to the many men who have had efficacious results. Also, there are NO RX contraindications to this formula and it’s not invasive. Used as directed, it is as dangerous as taking an aspirin.


Good Luck,
Barry, aka, PDFTD,
Peyronies Disease researcher,Advocate and Survivor for 12 years  
 

[Hawk]

I don't think the very strongest promoters of 'Thacker" would ever refer to it as a "cure"!

[Liam]

What is the rationale for this working?  In other words, what is in it that could possibly work?

Just a thought.....If you used Balsamic vinegar, would you get a "woodie"?

[bodoo2u]

OK, this is messing with my head, I mean it's just too much for me to understand. I thought the Thackers Formula was some type of multi-component formula and here it is just three ingredients. I know where to get castor oil and the Bragg's ACV because i frequent healthfood stores. But where do I get the type of DMSO that is most recommended for curing Peyronies Disease. Is there a specific mixture? Please Help!! And yes, I will read the entire formula before i apply it, but I just want to know what to buy so I can get it in the house and have it ready. 

[Hawk]

Tim,

Now that you bring it up,what is the molecular weight of lipstick?  It could possibly be carried into the tissue.   

[Tim468]

I may try that - though I expect a fall-off in the frequency of evening fellatio.

Tim

[soxfan]

Hey soxfan...
Exactly what kind of apple cider vinegar do you use? Can it be bought online?

thanks in advance;)

wg,

I use Bragg brand organic apple cider vinegar, make sure you use organic that contains the "mother". The "mother" is the floating white stuff that purportedly has beneficial enzymes in it.

Hawk,

I don't know why it works but I just know that in lieu of any coincidences it helped my condition improved greatly. My length has returned, blood flow and regular erections too, I am just now finding that regaining my lost girth is coming very slowly.

Heck, the Thacker formula is cheap and harmless so why not give it a shot. Just make sure you use it every night, for two hours for at least a year to give it a fair shot to work.

cheers.

[Liam]

Exactly what kind of apple cider vinegar do you use? Can it be bought online?

I use White House brand.  It is what is used on a salad and buy it from my local grocery (no shipping charge).  My wife just made West Indies Salad using lump white crab meat, salt, pepper, water, oil, and apple cider vinegar.  It was great!  You can also mix it with water and local honey to help with allergies and improve digestion.  I use the white vinegar in a solution with water to clean and deoderize the cat litter box.  You can also use it on your floors to freshen up the smell.

[wiseguy]

Hey soxfan...
Exactly what kind of apple cider vinegar do you use? Can it be bought online?

thanks in advance;)

[Hawk]

I am happy you noticed a change after a couple of months into your DMSO (Thackers) treatment.  But, why no more improvement after over a year?  Another question nagging me is why it would selectively attack plaque and leave healthy tissue alone (skin or TA)?

I'm not denying your improvement.  But, based on what you've described, I can't say there is clear evidence DMSO did anything.  If it did, why has it stopped?

If there is some other evidence, let me know.  I want something out there to work!

[bodoo2u]

Man,

That was some deep stuff. Can I safely assume that the study suggests my enlarged prostate was due to a lack of testoterone/increase in estrogen and may be the reason I wound up with Peyronies, which for me consists of a cord that runs the length of the right side of my penis?

That is a question for anyone, not just Soxfan.

[ComeBacKid]

How long have you been pumping for?  Did that seem to help or result in no change for you?

Comeback

[soxfan]

Soxfan,

Do you think you will be completely free from plaque due to Thackers?  If so, based on improvement seen in a year, how long do you estimate it will take?  Will you run through the improvements you've seen so far?   Maybe I am wrong about this.

Liam

Liam,

I think that you are wrong about dmso. I started using the Thacker formula before any other treatment and after a couple of months a piece of plaque disintegrated leaving a small dent. I could "feel" it working in that during treatment I felt an itching where the scar tissue was and after treatment the peinle tissue was much more elastic.

I have since added the ved and pav cocktail to my regimin and I always pump after using Thacker formula to stretch the weakened scar tissue. It has worked very well and I have recovered most all of my length and I now have more frequent erections and much better sensation. It may take another year but I expect to be fully cured. I think that most guys try something for a couple of months and quit when they don't see instant results, you have to stick with it!

ocelot,

You are right about propecia being the culprit. It kills dht levels and that leads to damaged penile tissue even in the absence of any trauma. I posted a study here a year ago confirming that hypothesis and I will repost here or you can type "androgens" in the search function.

Cheers.

Hi All,

I am still investigating the role of androgens or lack of them in Peyronies Disease and I came across a very interesting article. It is rather long so I will only post the conclusion and a link.

 
ISI Impact Factor (2003): 1.064
 
     
  Editor-in-Chief
Shao-Zhen Qian,PhD,Pharmacology
   
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Effect of androgen deprivation on penile ultrastructure

Zhou-Jun SHEN1, Xie-Lai ZHOU1, Ying-Li LU2, Zhao-Dian CHEN1

1Department of Urology, First Affiliated Hospital, 2Department of Endocrinology, Sir Run Run Shaw Hospital, School of Medicine, Zhejiang University , Hangzhou 310003, China

Asian J Androl 2003 Mar; 5: 33-36             


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Keywords: corpus cavernosum; tunica albuginea; androgens; penis; scanning electron microscopy
Abstract
Aim: To investigate the ultrastructural changes of penile corpus cavernosum and tunica albuginea in rats treated with castration or finasteride. Methods: Eighteen male Sprague-Dawley rats of nine weeks old were randomly divided into three groups with 6 rats each. Group A served as the control, Group B was castrated and Group C, treated with finasteride. Four weeks later, rats were anesthetized and blood samples obtained for the determination of serum testosterone (T) and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) levels; penile tissues were taken for scanning electron microscopy. Results: The T, free T and DHT levels in Group B and the DHT level in Group C were significantly lower than those in Group A (P<0.05). The tunica albuginea was significantly thinner in Group B than that in Group A (P<0.05), but there was no significant difference between Group C and Group A (P>0.05). Elastic fibers in the tunica albuginea of Group A were very rich and arranged regularly and undulatedly, but in Group B, most of the elastic fibers were replaced by collagenous fibers. In Group C, the tunica albuginea was mainly composed of thick and irregular-arranged collagenous fibers. In Group A, there were abundant smooth muscle fibers in the trabeculae of corpus cavernosum, but they were much less in Group C and scarce or even disappeared in Group B. In Groups B and C, the diminished/disappeared smooth muscle fibers were replaced by irregularly arranged collagenous fibers. Conclusion: In rats, androgen is essential for maintaining the normal structure of penile tunica albuginea and corpus carvenosum.

1 Introduction

Androgen is vital for the development of external genitalia in male mammals. In adult males, androgen is essential for the expression of normal libido, but seems to be not indispensable to the erectile activity [1]. We indicated that the serum testosterone (T) and free testosterone (FT) levels were significantly lower, the tunica albuginea much thinner and the penile corpus cavernosum contained less smooth muscles and more collagenous fibers in the elderly rats than in the young and middle-aged rats [2, 3]. Zhang et al [4] pointed out that castration induced apoptosis of penile corpus cavernosum in mature rats, which was prevented by T supplementation. This work suggested that the changes in androgen level might affect the morphology of the penile corpus caver-nosum, but the effect of androgen deprivation on the ultrastructure of the erectile tissue was not available so far in the literature. The present study was designed to elucidate this point in rats.

2 Materials and methods

2.1 Animals and treatment

Eighteen male Sprague-Dawley rats, 9 week old with body weight of 345¡À45 g, were purchased from the Experimental Animal Center of this University. They were randomly divided into three groups with six rats each and were maintained in a 12 h light/12 h dark animal room with free access to food and tap water. Group A served as the control, Group B was castrated and Group C, gavaged with finasteride at a dose of 4.5 mg.kg-1.day-1. Four weeks later, rats were killed by intraperitoneal injection of ketamine and phenobarbital sodium and blood samples were obtained for the determination of serum total and free testosterone (T & FT) and dihydrotest-osterone (DHT) levels with radioimmunoassay; penile tissues (tunica albuginea and corpus cavernosum) were taken from similar site for scanning electron microscopy.

2.2 Scanning electron microscopy

The penile tissues were washed with physiological saline, fixed in 2.5 % glutaraldehyde (pH 7.2~7.4) and washed three times in 0.1 mol/L phosphate buffer saline (PBS). The samples were then post-fixed in 1 % osmium tetroxide for 2 h, dehydrated in graded ethanol solutions and dried by the critical point drying method. The dried samples were then mounted on suitable carriers, coated with gold and examined under a scanning electron microscope (Leica-Stereoscan 260,UK).

2.3 Statistical analysis

Data were expressed in mean¡ÀSD and processed with statistical package of SPSS 10.0. Analysis of variance was performed with the t-test. Significance of difference was set at P<0.05.

3 Results

3.1 Androgen level

The serum concentrations of T, FT and DHT are shown in Table 1. The T, FT and DHT levels in Group B and the DHT level in Group C were significantly lower than those in Group A (P<0.05). There were no significant differences in the T and FT levels between Groups A and C (P>0.05).

Table 1. Serum T, FT and DHT levels. bP<0.05, compared with controls.

Group
 n
 T (nmol/L)
 FT (pmol/L)
 DHT (pg/mL)
 
A (control)
 6
 13.95¡À10.89
 43.91¡À25.85
 106.2¡À57.3
 
B (castrated)
 6
 0.79¡À0.51b
 1.83¡À0.15b
 48.4¡À8.6b
 
C (finasteride)
 6
 11.03¡À5.68
 47.33¡À32.45
 47.1¡À16.5b
 

3.2 Ultrastructure of tunica albuginea

The thickness of tunica albuginea was listed in Table 2. It was significantly thinner in Group B than in Group A (P<0.05), but there was no significant difference between Groups C and A (P>0.05). In Group A (Figure 1), the elastic fibers in tunica albuginea were very rich and arranged regularly and undulatedly, while in Group B (Figure 2), the elastic fibers were mostly replaced by collagenous fibers. In Group C (Figure 3), the regularly-arranged elastic fibers were not seen and replaced by thick and irregularly-arranged collagenous fibers.

Table 2. Thickness of tunica albuginea (mean¡ÀSD). bP<0.05, compared with control.

Group
 n
 Thickness (mm)
 
A (control)
 6
 0.16¡À0.03
 
B (castrated)
 6
 0.04¡À0.01b
 
C (finasteride)
 6
 0.14¡À0.03
 

Figure 1. Ultrastructures of tunica albuginea, Group A. (¡Á300)

Figure 2. Ultrastructures of tunica albuginea, Group B. (¡Á300)

Figure 3. Ultrastructures of tunica albuginea, Group C. (¡Á300)

3.3 Ultrastructure of corpus cavernosum

In Group A (Figure 4a & b), the smooth muscle fibers in the trabeculae were rich and contained a few elastic and collagenous fibers. Structure of the sinusoids was perfect and clear.

Figure 4a & b. Ultrastructures of corpus cavernosum, Group A. (a¡Á300, b¡Á900)

In Group B (Figure 5a & b), the corpus cavernosum was mainly composed of a large amount of collagenous fibers, which were thick and irregularly arranged. Smooth muscle fibers in the trabeculae were diminished or completely disappeared. The sinusoids were markedly depressed and narrowed.

Figure 5a & b. Ultrastructures of corpus cavernosum, Group B. (a¡Á300, b¡Á900)

In Group C (Figure 6a & b), the corpus cavernosum also contained a considerable amount of thick and irregularly-arranged collagenous fibers, but the degree of fibrosis was not so marked as in Group B and the types of fibrosis were different between these two groups. The sinusoids of Group C were partially depressed, but the structure of the sinusoids was still retained.

Figure 6a & b. Ultrastructures of corpus cavernosum, Group C. (a¡Á300, b¡Á900)

4 Discussion

The present study showed that in the castration animals, there were a high degree of fibrosis in the corpus cavernosum with irregularly arranged collagenous fibers and a marked decrease in smooth muscle fibers, while in the DHT-inhibited group, the corpus cavernosum contained quite an amount of thick and irregular-arranged collagenous fibers, but the degree of fibrosis was lower than that in the castration group. Results suggest that androgen is essential for the maintenance of normal ultrastructure of corpus cavernosum. Zhang et al [4] demonstrated that in mature rats, castration induced apoptosis in corpus cavernosum with the replacement of the apoptotic tissues by fibrous tissue. This may be one of the pathways through which androgen deprivation acts on corpus cavernosum. In the present study, the degree and type of corpus cavernosum fibrosis in the two groups were different, suggesting that T and DHT act on the corporal cavernosal tissues independently and differently. Finasteride can only inhibit the action of DHT, but not T on the corporal cavernosal tissue, therefore, the degree of fibrosis was less in the DHT-inhibited group than in the castration group.

The tunica albuginea of penis plays a major role in the erection mechanism. It compresses the subalbugineal venules, thus decreasing the venous outflow during erection and provides an inextensible fibrous frame for the erectile tissue of the penis [5]. In the normal control group of this study, the elastic fibers in the tunica albuginea were very rich and arranged regularly and undulatedly. In the castration group, the thickness of tunica albuginea decreased significantly and the elastic fibers were mostly replaced by collagenous fibers and in the DHT-inhibited group, the elastic fibers were replaced by disorganized and thick collagenous fibers. These results indicate that androgen is also essential for the maintenance of the normal structures of tunica albuginea.

It can be concluded that androgen is indispensable to the maintenance of normal ultrastructures of the erectile tissues. However, the interrelationship between androgen and the structure and function of the erectile tissue is not quite clear and sometimes even controversial, and further investigation is needed
 
http://www.asiaandro.com/1008-682X/5/33.htm

[ocelot556]

Thanks soxfan. It's good to hear that people are using this stuff safely, beyond the claims on such websites as "the doctor who invented DMSO" or websites that tell you how safe and effective it is...and then go on to try and sell you bottles of the stuff in the next paragraph.

And Liam - I don't beleive my Peyronies Disease was caused entirely by Propecia - but I beleive that there must be a relationship between wound healing in the TA and testosterone/estrogen levels in the body. Since Propecia alters your testosterone and attempts to drive it down so that the specific androgens targetting your hairloss can't bind with follicles...I don't think it's a great leap of logic to assume that in the process, it drove down (or up, if estrogen is the culprit) whatever hormones my body needed to adequately recover from what must have been that initial trauma.

I just lay the blame on the medicine for the same reason you might blame a poorly-made anticoagulant if someone took it, cut themselves accidentally, and bled to death. It's really the wound itself that's to blame, but the underlying cause of it failing to heal would be the effects of the medicine.

And yeah, I might be more forgiving on the FDA if, despite my suspicions about propecia, there weren't horrendous drugs being approved like Vioxx or the ones you see in the commercials. I've actually seen ones that list side effects as "lymphoma and some rare cancers"!! How is the FDA letting this stuff through, unless they are distracted by big lobbyist paychecks...

[Liam]

Soxfan,

Do you think you will be completely free from plaque due to Thackers?  If so, based on improvement seen in a year, how long do you estimate it will take?  Will you run through the improvements you've seen so far?   Maybe I am wrong about this.

Liam

[soxfan]

ocelot,

I have been using dmso almost everday as part of the Thacker formula for over a year now. It works and I have never had any adverse reactions.

Cheers.

[Liam]

If DMSO were the cure, everyone would know it.  It is not a cure.  I would not use it myself, but have heard of no serious consequences.  I do think your concerns are justified, though.  Try taking ibuprofen for the inflammation (I'm serious).

I am no fan of government agencies.  If you want something screwed up, create a bureaucracy around it.  The FDA has huge problems.  I do trust them more than companies trying to sell you something, though.  You can't buy off every employee of the FDA.  If something really works, the word will get out.

I don't mean what I am going to say in a mean spirited way.  Propecia makes a nice scapegoat.  If it were responsible for everything some of these websites say, it would have been pulled, no doubt.  I'm just saying to keep an open mind about the cause.  Don't be convinced by speculation.

[ocelot556]

Hi! Since you were all so very helpful with my other questions (on different topics - I've been without PC access for a while, so my apologies for not thanking you all - especially Hawk, Liam and OldMan!) I've got another one for you. Obviously, about DMSO.

I bought a bunch of it after reading about Thacker's formula, A bottle of 99% pure, a mix of 70% DMSO and 30% Aloe Vera, and a cream of DMSO mixed with aloe and vitamin E.

I've been combining the pure DMSO with 12,000 IU Vitamin E and, from time to time (to combat inflammation and hardening of the plaques in my Peyronies Disease) I apply it directly. I only leave it on for 5-10 minutes, but when I do this for a few days on end I tend to feel better.

My Peyronies Disease acts up sometimes after sex or masturbation, so I tend to use it afterwards - but I'm constantly worried.

All of the DMSO websites claim it's completely safe, but sometimes it feels like they're just trying to "sell" the drug. I don't trust the FDA worth a damn, so I don't beleive that DMSO is unsafe either (it's just not profitable for the pharma companies who've bought off the FDA).

I'm worried about what's being carried through the tissue by the DMSO, and how it might affect me. I don't overdo it - I use it maybe four or five times a month - but every time I do I'm paranoid that the soap I use to wash it off is being carried through, the minerals in my shower water are being carried through, the dye of the boxers I pull on afterwards is being carried through.

I guess I'd just like to be assured that it's either not that dangerous, or hear from people who use it without problem. Since I'm convinced that Propecia gave me my Peyronies Disease in the first place, I'm so incredibly wary about using MORE chemicals to help myself. Erk. Any advice would be appreciated.

[ComeBacKid]

Maxmoreno,

Many months ago I spent considerable time reviewing the dmso information, which is a PART of thackers formula.  I can't recall a single person telling me they were healed from either DMSO or thackers formula.  I know of no scientific studies done on either as well.  I would say with confidence we can't consider this a common way of healing.  However it may still be worth looking into, and appears to be safe.  One of our forum members Barry, spent considerable time himself dealing with thackers, and claims to know of people it healed.

Comeback

[maxmoreno]

 Hello,
 
 I have reviewed the information for DMSO on www.dmso-use.com 
 and I was wondering if somebody has experienced this medicine. Can we consider this as a common way of healing?
 
 Thank you.

[hopeful]

Hi Barry...

I Just found a supply of 99.9% pure DMSO- Here is what I am thinking- instead of using vigear, I am thinking of using the following enzymes:

Protease - dissolves fibrin -
Nattokinase - the same
Serrapeptase - derived from the silk worm- eats the fibin as welll- plaque, etc..

I would love to hear from you first before doing this- The dmso is the carrier...

Please let me know..
Hopeful

By request I am posting a newly revised version of the Thacker Formula to this topic.


The formula CAN be premixed. How many days in advance were not discussed with Thacker but all indications lead to 3-5 days. The premixed batch must be sealed when not in use and kept at room temperature. (DO NOT refrigerate premixed batches). The formula is comprised of 70%DMSO-20%Apple Cider Vinegar-10%Castor OIL.

[Rzz]

Pectin is not an enzyme. It is a complex made up of different polysaccharides linked together. It is primarily used to thicken jam.

Like a lot of stuff one can read here, the information is not always accurate. Pectin has a pro-health effect by serving as a source of fiber in the diet - but as a way to cure Peyronies... I do not see a way for it to help.

Tim

You are correct Pectin in itself is not an enzyme. I should have written Pectinase. I write Pectinase as Pectin for short in all my notes and that is how I transfered to the last post. Pectinase is an enzyme.

Pectin is indeed used to thicken jams, however pectin also serves a purpose in the fruit or plant it is in. Pectin is what holds the plant or fruit together. The way pectin is made to thicken jams is caused by Pectinase (a enzyme).

Pectinases are produced during the ripening process of many plants and fruits (including apples), where together with cellulases they "soften the cell walls." This byproduct of the softening is the thickening agent for jams. Pectinase causes the degredation of cell walls holding many plants and fruits together, including apples.

Tyrosinase, among others, is another cell degrading enzyme found in apples.

Rzz

[Tim468]

Pectin is not an enzyme. It is a complex made up of different polysaccharides linked together. It is primarily used to thicken jam.

Like a lot of stuff one can read here, the information is not always accurate. Pectin has a pro-health effect by serving as a source of fiber in the diet - but as a way to cure Peyronies... I do not see a way for it to help.

Tim

[hopeful]

Thanks for getting back to me- I am impressed with what I have read thus far. As for the enzymes- I am a firm believer in them- and feel they may hold the key- in solving the Peyronies Disease problem- As you know- AUxulliums new wonder drug is nothing but an enzyme being packaged as a drug. (Collagenease) I am wondering now with all the new material about enzymes- including the Protease enzymes as wellas the Nanokanease and Serepetease- (Neprinol formula- only oral) if these enzymes could be mixed with DMSO - as a carrier, as they are much stronger then Pectin in eating fibritic material and plaque...  I am personally doing research with a small drug company.. and will discuss the DMSO as a carrier,, will keep you posted

Hopeful

There are different types of enzymes in Apple Cider Vinegar. One that comes into play here is called Pectin.
The DMSO is the carrier

[Rzz]

Hopeful,

Yes people have reported positive results using the formula. Some are contributors to this forum. However, it has worked better for some than others and for some it has not worked at all. Like most treatments, improvement is slow and takes patience. I'm not trying to discourage or encourage you to use the formula. That is a decision you will have to make yourself, but in all my research and all those who have reported to me I have not found one that had any devastaing side effects. The two main side effects reported to me were an initial burning in the first phases of treatment and unpleasant odor from the breath or when one heavily prespires. I would like to give you or anybody thinking of using the formula some advice; When ever in doubt about anything to do with using the formula i.e. mixing it, applying it etc.., "Don't assume, always ask before taking the next step."

By the way, most people think that burning sensation they get when they first use the formula is caused by the DMSO. It is not. It is caused by the acid in the vinegar. 

There are different types of enzymes in Apple Cider Vinegar. One that comes into play here is called Pectin.

The DMSO is the carrier
The Castor Oil is the base that holds it together as well as neutralizes the acid in the vinegar.
The Apple Cider Vinegar provides the enzymes.

Good luck and let me know if I can help you further,     Rzz

HI Rzz..

This is Hopeful,

You did read it wrong- I have not tried it yet- I am trying to find out if anyone has had any success-

Please let me know- I am not taking any drugs at all!- WHat is the particular enzyme in the vinegar?- How long should you take it?-

Thanks,

Hopeful

Hopeful,

I'm not sure I'm reading your post correctly. It seems as if you may be saying you are mixing other drugs with DMSO and using that. If this is what you are doing, I STRONGLY urge you to STOP. One of the major factors of pharmaceuticals is the way they are introduced to the system.   

[hopeful]

Nick... where are you- what happened with the DMSO?- ANy improvement.. Please let us know.

Hopeful

Yes Joshua I am going to try it again. I stated before but I think I had the mix off.

[soxfan]

Hopeful,

I posted my very positive experience using the Thacker Formula. You should put in some time and read the thread at the bottom of the page entitled: powerful home remedy/Thacker Formula.

The ingredients are safe and inexpensive but you have to use it for 6/7 days a weekd, 2 hours a day and for upwards of a year or more. Those who say it doesn't work probably used it sporadically for a month or two and then gave up, it is a long term treatment that requires some commitment.

[hopeful]

Hey ComeBackid - this is Hopeful- How are you doing- Please let me know what you did,, how much improvement as far as deformity, size, etc- what pump did you use.. and what other treatments- DMSO, Thackers, etc.?- what about Soxfan- what is this?

Hopeful

Soxfan,

Thanks for adding your experience with thackers, i have heard of your good results, but I wanted everyone else to.

Tim,

The ved is effective, I can state for a fact that it had increased my flaccid size, mainly in length, it took daily usage for about 3 months until I saw results.  I should also state I hold each erection for about 30 seconds to a minute.  I do about 10-15 reps.  My erections are very full as well now and my penis appears thicker when erect.  I honestly believe that the VED keeps the blood vessels clear and open, and stretches that tunica.  Hopefully more people on here will post of their good results with thackers and the VED.

ComeBackid

[hopeful]

HI Rzz..

This is Hopeful,

You did read it wrong- I have not tried it yet- I am trying to find out if anyone has had any success-

Please let me know- I am not taking any drugs at all!- WHat is the particular enzyme in the vinegar?- How long should you take it?-

Thanks,

Hopeful

Hopeful,

I'm not sure I'm reading your post correctly. It seems as if you may be saying you are mixing other drugs with DMSO and using that. If this is what you are doing, I STRONGLY urge you to STOP. One of the major factors of pharmaceuticals is the way they are introduced to the system.   

[ComeBacKid]

Soxfan,

Thanks for adding your experience with thackers, i have heard of your good results, but I wanted everyone else to.

Tim,

The ved is effective, I can state for a fact that it had increased my flaccid size, mainly in length, it took daily usage for about 3 months until I saw results.  I should also state I hold each erection for about 30 seconds to a minute.  I do about 10-15 reps.  My erections are very full as well now and my penis appears thicker when erect.  I honestly believe that the VED keeps the blood vessels clear and open, and stretches that tunica.  Hopefully more people on here will post of their good results with thackers and the VED.

ComeBackid

[Hawk]

Tim,

This should probably go under Urologists and other Doctors but you know, I would be happy to hear a doctor say, "I just don't know because unfortunately we have no data to support or refute the efficacy of such a treatment.  What kills me, is that because they do not know if a thing works the vast majority scoff.  Often they flatly say, "there is nothing to it", which is what a scoff says anyway.  This implies that they know all things and if they have no knowledge of it just cannot be.  I agree that we need objective evidence but what kills me is that many of the treatments they promote have little such evidence or even some evidence of harm.  Somehow that is OK.  Who can resolve such a contradiction?

My cancer surgeon is world renown.  He developed the laparoscopic prostatectomy technique in France and was recruited to Memorial Slone-Kettering in Manhatten.  Every urological surgeon in the world knows this man's name. I love this guy because during our 90 minute conversation which I finally ended,  I asked him if there was anything I could do nutritionally to increase my chance of beating my prostate cancer.  I specifically mentioned a few studies.  He shrugged his shoulders in sincere uncertainty and said, "I can't say.  What do I know, I am only a surgeon."  While one could argue that he should have some resources to refer patients to, you have to admire the common down-to-earth honesty and humility.  He stands out, not for knowing everything he should know, but for just admitting his limited knowledge.

The shame is, that this is remarkable.

[Tim468]

>>PS: Let the doctors continue to SCOFF at the ved and Thacker formula. Sadly. most md's can't get beyond the notion of drugging/operating to solve all medical conditions.<<

When you say this, but also admit that you are using the pentox, arginine, viagra combination AND the VED AND Thacker's formula, would that not be also considered "drugging?".

If I also had a knife, and knew how to wield it, I would add that to my arsenal of tools.

In the end, doctors are people who have tools and try to use them. It is a fact that not many of the tools work that well, or we would all be using the same tools. We do what we know. What is sad is how little doctors know about something they should know a LOT about.

Tim

[soxfan]

I think hopeful was quoting me when I was posting to Rico.  He then posed a question about dmso to rico.   

Rzz,  Have you tried thackers ?  Any luck with it if so?  Soxfan has told me hes seen results from it, perhaps he could add his experience here.  When I brought up DMSO and thackers to my urologist, he basically scoffed at me and made a joke of it.

ComeBackid

ComeBackid/All,

I can state with 100% certainty that the Thacker formula does indeed help to soften plaque/scar tissue. You do have to use it consistently, I have done so for almost a year and I also use the ved( osbon esteem model) and the p.a.v cocktail. I have regained almost all of my lost length and I am sure that with continued treatment I will completely resolve my peyronies.

PS: Let the doctors continue to SCOFF at the ved and Thacker formula. Sadly. most md's can't get beyond the notion of drugging/operating to solve all medical conditions.

Cheers.

[ComeBacKid]

I think hopeful was quoting me when I was posting to Rico.  He then posed a question about dmso to rico.   

Rzz,  Have you tried thackers ?  Any luck with it if so?  Soxfan has told me hes seen results from it, perhaps he could add his experience here.  When I brought up DMSO and thackers to my urologist, he basically scoffed at me and made a joke of it.

ComeBackid

[Rzz]

Hopeful,

I'm not sure I'm reading your post correctly. It seems as if you may be saying you are mixing other drugs with DMSO and using that. If this is what you are doing, I STRONGLY urge you to STOP. One of the major factors of pharmaceuticals is the way they are introduced to the system.   

The formula one sees on this forum does not have drugs. The formula consist of castor oil, vinegar and DMSO. The Castor Oil works as a base, the vinegar works as an enzyme and the DMSO works as a carrier. None are harmful to the system.

The reason you did not get any burning sensation could be two-fold.
1) Although at first most do get a a burning sensation, not all do. Most people believe the burning sensation is caused by the DMSO, but it is not. It is caused by the vinegar working as an ennzyme. When the burning sensation occurrs, the person should stop the treatment until the redness is completly gone, then try again. If the burning continues, you may have to decrease the amount of vinegar being used. 
2) You may not have had a burning sensation because has you stated in your post, you only applied the formula for 2 hours. That is certainly why your breath or body did not give off an odor. It takes longer than 2 hours of application.

I'm not encouraging you or anyone else for that matter to try the formula. I'm just passing on what knowledge I've gained from the many, many hours I researched this topic. Good luck to you friend.

[hopeful]

Percival

Have you tried the DMSO??-If so what did you do?-Any progress???
Hopeful

[hopeful]

Rico.. Has anything worked..   DMSO looks like it could have some positive effects,

HOPEFUL..

Rico,

I tried the thackers formula once for about two hours, I did a wrap, I did not have any garlic breath or any side effects, no skin irritation or pain, I discontinued use because I'm not totally sure its safe, and I'm working with other drugs and the VEd, that DMSO may carry into the blood stream and have a weird reaction with the other drugs I'm on. 

[percival]

There are publications which show that DMSO is effective on the scleroderma type of scar tissue:
http://www.dmso.org/articles/scleroderma/sclero3.htm

and:

Collagen and Scleroderma

Scleroderma is a rare, disabling, and sometimes fatal disease, resulting form an abnormal buildup of collagen in the body. The body swells, the skin--particularly on hands and face--becomes dense and leathery, and calcium deposits in joints cause difficulty of movement. Fatigue and difficulty in breathing may ensue. Amputation of affected digits may be necessary. The cause of scleroderma is unknown, and, until DMSO arrived, there was no known effective treatment.

Arthur Scherbel, MD, of the department of rheumatic diseases and pathology at the Cleveland Clinic Foundation, conducted a study using DMSO with 42 scleroderma patients who had already exhausted all other possible therapies without relief. Dr. Scherbel and his coworkers concluded 26 of the 42 showed good or excellent improvement. Histotoxic changes were observed together with healing of ischemic ulcers on fingertips, relief from pain and stiffness, and an increase in strength. The investigators noted, "It should be emphasized that these have never been observed with any other mode of therapy."10 Researchers in other studies have since come to similar conclusions.11

Percival

[ComeBacKid]

Has anyone on this forum used thackers formula and seen an improvment of any kind in their peyronies disease?  I have yet to hear from one person on this forum thats reported a success.  I have heard from Barry of success stories however.

[ComeBacKid]

Rico,

I tried the thackers formula once for about two hours, I did a wrap, I did not have any garlic breath or any side effects, no skin irritation or pain, I discontinued use because I'm not totally sure its safe, and I'm working with other drugs and the VEd, that DMSO may carry into the blood stream and have a weird reaction with the other drugs I'm on. 

[Rico]

Dear forum members and guest...

I have been using the thacker formula for about six weeks now....I had to take a week off in the beginning when I had some skin irritation...

I notice when I would do it in the beginning my unit would always react, maybe like it was a little shock from the mixture...using the thacker(dmso/acv/castor oil) and I was using more, I put mine on with a eye dropper right on the plaque, like a slow drip, I do this for one to two hours, the most I use is a tablespoon of mixture.... well after four or five days of doing this, my erections start to become non existence and it is hard to stimulate myself....

Now I have been watching this, if I take one or two days off, they pop back....so there is something going on with the thacker....my plaque fills softer and was on the top of septum in one piece, now the middle of it is separated in two pieces, I don't know if it spilt when I started to use VED....I had been conditioning it for six weeks with the thacker to help stretch it....

I took off last night and did a Epsom salt bath instead of thacker, just cause I was concern of my unit not responding(I have been under stress also), but even though I had been under stress, I had notice this before with dmso after about a week....well sure enough I woke up with good wood this morning...so I'm going to go back on the thacker tonight....I think this is positive to me....especially the plaque getting thinner on top of the septum...

I move to the b cylinder on Sunday...my hour glass hasn't improve at all and it is my real problem, this is causing my lost of length, yes lost of length....I believe when you pull it intogether this shrinks your unit...so gain of girth equals legnth....

Anyway any one out there soaking there unit in pickle juice, speak up.....

p.s. I just wanted to add  that my unit became use to the thacker, it no longer gets a rash...I put msm cream on it when not using the thacker, it is soothing to the skin...I also use several other oils..arinca and caldenula oil...

Rico

[Hawk]

Percival,

I will echo that until you are committed enough to read every word of this thread and the Thacker Formula archive, you should not attempt use of this formula.

While it will not carry bacteria through your skin, it will rapidly transport anything with a molecular weight of less than 1000.  Anything that touches the DMSO, including body parts, cloth, or containers, need to be free of impurities. Wash and then rinse thoroughly to remove soap or fragrances.  It is not unusual to get a taste in your mouth within seconds of getting DMSO on your hands.  It commonly gives an odor to your breath indicating it goes directly into your blood stream and is respirated through the capillaries in the lungs.

[percival]

I have read so much about the Thacker mixture, and I understand that the basic formula is:

Thacker formula, I mix it using 7 teaspoons of 99.9% pure dmso+2 teaspoons of apple cider vinegar+1 teaspoon of castor oil.

However, is the idea to apply this neat or is it supposed to be diluted in water first - if so to what extent?
 
I have read of Rico's trials and he seems to have burnt his 'unit' (a wonderful name for it). As I do not want to duplicate this result - I can imagine having to explain it to the Accident and Emergency department - I would appreciate advice on how to apply the Thacker mixture.
Regards,
Percival

[Hawk]

ComeBackid,

No one is questioning Barry, certainly not me.  But whether Barry relates it first hand or we see a CBS special report on the cases, or read the Thacker threads (which I have read every word of) it does not answer the questions about dermal scars, evidence of DMSO fighting inflammation, non-calcified plaque, or the accuracy of what others reported to Barry.  Believe me, I wish everyone on the forum would try it and report back.  If more than 15% resolved significantly better I would probably give it a try.

I just think anyone using it might as well find another spot of scar tissue on the body, or an active cut or two that they can observe, and do some real experimenting while they are at. Then if someone gets results we could have an active ongoing probing exchange directly with that person.  It will still just be anecdotal evidence, but more interesting.  I clearly expect that if 10 people try it one or two will show some improvement worth mentioning.  That would be expected.  If 3 or 4 show such improvement then is getting interesting.  If 3 or 4 get improvement out of 30 then that is zero improvement because that is on par with "spontaneous improvement.

[ComeBacKid]

I think at this point we seem to have hit a stalemate, Rico you have made some excellent points, Liam and Hawk have challenged the idea of how and why thackers will work, nothing wrong with this either. 

At this point, I think it would be appropriate for Barry to enter the discussion and tell us his stories and how many people he communicated with that said thackers helped them, I think we can all trust Barry(at least I can) as he has been a peyronies advocate for years and a friend of the forum/administrator.  Old Wise man where are you?  Perhaps SoxFan telling us his story might help to convince some of the people, as far as a study we won't get one, won't happen. 

Safety should be the prime concern for all treatments, besides if they will work or not.  I would also like to see more information on safety in regards to DMSO, but for now I think I willl continue using it.

ComeBackid

[Liam]

Why would Thacker's Formula only "attack" plaque and not damage other surrounding cells?  Will long term use completely destroy the functionality of you penis?  If you were betting on this, what would be the odds?  Is it worth the risk?

BTW, I apologize if anyone thinks I'm attacking a person or persons.  I am challenging an idea in an effort to encourage critical thinking.  My tone was and is one I would use with my brothers (as y'all are).

I was taking DHEA until Hawk challenge me to critical thinking.  I am off of it now.  Thank you to Hawk.

Liam


Thacker's spellchecks as Thwacker's  ......hmmmmm.......

[ComeBacKid]

I just want to say to everyone who can point out there is no scientific evidence this can work or to be shown it will work.... I know this.  But for most of the treatments on this forum we have ABSOLUTELY no scientific evidence.  Look to the VED's for example, no studies at all(supposedly there is one out there but not public), and yet I've talked to 5 people who have seen results from the VED. 

Barry has stated to me that MANY people have seen results from thackers formula, I take him at his word and believe him, and yes this is NOT scientific, since the medical community is not doing much in the way of studies we have to try our own.  From what I've read I have no reason to believe DMSO is dangerous at all what so ever, obviously try everything at your own risk.  My theory is to try every single thing possible to throw at this crap.  I think it is good to be a skeptic and throw and have critical thinkign I do this myself, I was more referring to the jokes, perhaps my definition of a critic and skeptic is confused, critic is the wrong word for what I wanted to say, I meant more in the way of hecklers. 

I trust MOST of the people on this forum, for soxfan to tell me thackers softened his plaque and Barry to tell me it has worked on many people I'll take that as the closest thing to scientific we will get on this topic. 

[Tim468]

I think it counts for a great deal to have people who we trust to be honest (like Barry) to say "I used it and I got better". But that is not, as you have mentioned ComeBackid, the scientific method. We are not doing science here, either. we are experimenting, but it is to see if we can make empirical connections (IOW, connections not proven but implid by a connection )(ie not just cause and effect).

In fact, a bunch of positive reports is still not science. What if the guys who responded to ionto of verapamil happened to be posting here and said - "this really worked for me!" Well, it would be inspiring - and we would try it.

The action of DMSO to enter into cells is well known. The action of it "breaking up scar" is not known, and not even close to being proven. The logic behind acidic environments helping, or oil helping is all conjectural.

Yet, someone thought it up and it seems to have helped someone. So... the question is it more than would be healed by a placebo?

Well, I would take a placebo if I thought it would work. God knows I have taken a lot of crap.

So I will be interested to see what helps or does not.

Tim

[Hawk]

I don't mind the skeptics and constructive thinking and exchanging ideas, but lets all try to stay away from being CRITICS, we are all in this together.

Critic -1. "on who forms and expresses judgements based on the merits of a matter" 3."one who makes harsh carping judgements"

I am not sure I understand the the difference between the primary definition of a critic and a skeptic, especially when we encourage "critical thinking".  I think we need both.  The attack of a concept with evidence is always good.  The attack on an individual sidetracks the argument and has no place.  Again, in this case I use the term argument to mean "a course of reasoning aimed at demonstrating truth".  We have had no personal attacks and certainly no "harsh carping judgements".

Now, on to my critical, skeptical view of DMSO.  Which I have used extensively in veterinary applications on birds of prey.

There is no doubt that DMSO will transport substances within the limit of specific molecular weight into tissue.  It is an easily reproduced demonstration.  There is no doubt in my mind that people have used DMSO and improved.  There is doubt in my mind whether DMSO played a role, or if vinegar played a role, the combination, or neither. 

In order to work, DMSO would have to do the following.  Transport a agent that reduces scar tissue past a network of capillaries that would uptake the substances and yet not penetrate beyond the target.  I think we have little other except anecdotal accounts that it can reduce scar tissue or give the targeted delivery needed.

Alternatively, DMSO could reduce inflammation in acute Peyronies Disease.  Or stimulate blood flow that actually helps healing.  I would be interested in how it help heal 2 cuts on a hand, one treated and one not treated.

Many men with Peyronies Disease never have calcified plaque.  I seem to see a line of thought among some that market products and some of us hoping for a really good treatment that goes something like: "A certain drug or concoction really is known to reduce the plaque or scar tissue in the underlying tissue."  Yet no one ever seems to claim these products can eradicate even the tiniest dermal scar much less a keloid that we can easily apply products directly to, then watch, and measure the results.  Sophisticated research has been undertaken to reduce scaring in burn victims, keloids, and surgical adhesions.  It is clear that many things help, but very few of these are included in the list that we use.  I think it is a stretch (I should be PUNished) to think these things only work where we can't see, but would not effect other scar tissue open for examination.

[ComeBacKid]

I like Liam often times found myself thinking, is this someones idea of a cruel joke? 

I don't believe so, Barry has told me that he talked to thacker himself and has talked to many people that this has worked for.  I first found out about this thackers on the old BTC jungle forum.  I believe barry and take him at his word.  I did a little research and it does show what Rico has been telling us that DMSO can dissolve or soften old scar tissue.  I've often wondered as Tim has stated, could DMSO carry verapamil or decadron into the plaque or scar tissue itself? 

I wanted to make two more points, one is I've been in touch with soxfan who is seeing results from the VED and using thackers, which he claims has helped to soften his plaque, besides this I was in touch with a man named Nick Foxx off the old BTC, he is registered here but does not post, he used MSM pills for awhile and saw good results and straightening.

Any scientific evidence on this stuff...no of course not, any scientific evidence on the VED's... I have yet to see it, but we now have about 5 people reporting results.  For most of this stuff there is no scientific evidence, thats just the way it is, I think Rico has made enough of a tie with DMSO's ability to dissolve scar tissue and go deep through cell membrames to show it could work, this is all I need to try it.  I don't mind the skeptics and constructive thinking and exchanging ideas, but lets all try to stay away from being CRITICS, we are all in this together.

ComeBackid

[Liam]

I shall summarize my thoughts of the application of DMSO, Cider vinegar and Castor oil:

to a Pig's ear - good

to a penis     - bad

On the gulf coast we use Adolph's meat tenderizer for jelly fish stings.  So, it has a medical purpose.  "Meat" tenderizer (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)....hmmmm.  Maybe a good addition to Thackers formula.  After all it tenderizes meat.  And, it will draw the inflammation out like it draws the poison from a jelly fish sting.

Sometimes an analogy may be misleading.  Sometimes not.  Thats why scientific investigation and then scientific testing is done.

Liam

[percival]

Liam
I too have some doubts about the Thacker formula, but there is a bit of logic in it:
I should think that the vinegar is there with the intention of dissolving the calcium out of the plaque. Can't say why cider vinegar is used, 8% acetic acid would probably work as well, unless there are some minor components present in cider which are important.
The inclusion of castor oil sounds like a treatment they use to soften leather. During the tanning process, the natural oils get extracted and the leather becomes stiff. This is rectified by 'fat-liquoring' in which a natural oil such as castor oil is emulsified (often sulphated castor oil is used) in water and the leather is churned in it. This results in supple leather. Whale oil used to be used and it produced very fine leathers for gloves. High quality gloving leather has to have good stretchability to 'fit like a glove' so I think that this may be the idea behind the Thacker formula - using a natural oil to soften the leathery plaque.
As for DMSO - it is well known for permeating the skin and presumably will carry the vinegar and castor to the plaque.

Maybe it would be worth carrying out an experiment with say, a section of pig's ear to see if the Thacker formula softened it.

How in the world could any of these ingredients (chemicals) help Peyronies Disease?  What is the mechanism?   The whole idea sounds like a cruel joke, mix salad dressing (oil and vinegar) with an industrial solvent.  Then tape it to your penis.

I am as bad as anyone about trying potential "fixes" for Peyronies Disease.  But, guys......

Now, if anyone can give me a plausible, scientific reason this would work, I'll be happy to have crow fricassee for dinner[/color]

Crow sounds leathery!

Percival

[ComeBacKid]

It was Barry who original told me all about thackers, he told me it will work and has talked to a handfull of people who used it and saw results.  Barry is the one who originally talked to this infamous "thacker," guy.  I like most on here am a skeptic but willing to give this a try for now.

Rico,

So you simply add in the measured quantities as you stated into a bowl and mix them all up(I don't have an eye dropper), then let the guaze soak for 5 minutes or so?  Then wrap onto the penis and tape it on?

ComeBackid

[Liam]

I use to race greyhounds.  I now rescue them.  The trainer sprayed them down with DMSO after a race to prevent sore muscles.  It seemed to work.

I remember the first time I heard of DMSO.  It was from a man who swore WD40 helped his arthritis.  Just spray it on the joint and it goes through the skin and lubricates the joint.  Now that doesn't speak to the effectiveness of DMSO.  It does show personal accounts of effectiveness should be taken with a grain of (Epsom) salt 

[Tim468]

DMSO has some data collected over the years that shows that it is generally safe, and that it can be of help in relieving pain in arthritis. Most other claims are not well studied, except for cystitis pain; DMSO can be injected into the bladder to help with that.

MSM is a breakdown product of DMSO, but is not as well studied. it may have many of the same effects, though these effects are generally assumed, but not proven. A good review of this matter is found at:

http://www.arthritis.org/resources/arthritistoday/1999_archives/1999_11_12explorations.asp

All of the reviews I read pointed out that the DMSO available in health food stores is NOT medical grade DMSO - even the 99% pure DMSO, which is still industrial and not medical grade. I believe this has to do with manufacturing standards and the potential for impurities to be in the  solution.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/OTA/ota05.html

This has a good discussion of this matter.

I think DMSO is of unproven benefit for Peyronies Disease, though it has potential. I am VERY suspicious of a formula that is secret and which refuses to show any data (the mysterious Thacker formula). All the Thacker thread claims strike me as bogus, in that the posters are not open as to who they are, they do not apear willing to share their "secrets" - and other signs of fakery I have seen before. This is just my opinion.

Tim

ps - I have worked a lot with DMSO, and it gets across cell membranes fast. A drop on the finger will be tasted in the mouth in about 15 seconds (absorbtion and blood flow time). It can carry small molecules across tissue planes which makes me think it could be used to move drugs into the tunica easily (ie verapamil or soulbilized Pentox - get it right to the problem.

Tim

[mark501]

Liam, Many thanks for your post on DMSO.  The following is on the label of  one of the most popular DMSO gel preparations sold on the internet at 99.9% pure. "Caution; may cause skin irritation. Avoid contact with eyes, skin & clothing. In case of eye contact immediately flush eyes with water. Call a physician.  Sold as a solvent only. This product is intented for use as a solvent only. The choice of the process  used in the various applications is the sole responsibility of the user. It is unlawful to represent in any way that this product is useful or safe to use for medicinal purposes. Keep out of the reach of children. This product is sold on many websites right along with vitamins and beauty creams ,the implication being that this product is in the general category of  food supplements & cosmetics. How much more explicit does a label warning have to be? Think! 

[Liam]

How in the world could any of these ingredients (chemicals) help Peyronies Disease?  What is the mechanism?   The whole idea sounds like a cruel joke, mix salad dressing (oil and vinegar) with an industrial solvent.  Then tape it to your penis.

I am as bad as anyone about trying potential "fixes" for Peyronies Disease.  But, guys......

Now, if anyone can give me a plausible, scientific reason this would work, I'll be happy to have crow fricassee for dinner.