Progression of Peyronie's Disease

[Liam]

I was given elavil for herniated disc.  Pain kept me awake for 3 days.  It helped me sleep to some degree.  I remember feeling "hungover" the next day.  I finally got some relief from an "epidural".  

I agree with Old Man that I would prefer something else for pain, myself.  But we are all different.  Who knows?

[tdsc]

cs65-  Pain was aggravated greatly by clothing for me as well.  Wearing different clothing practically eliminated that type of pain.  I stopped wearing jeans and kakhis and wore polyester or wool pants.  During the summer I was wearing the lightweight polyester bathing suits as shorts.  Naturally, these types of clothes are comfortable as well.  It sounds like your injury is similar to mine, and what stopped the progression of the disease and new pain was a complete cessation of sexual activity/masturbation of any kind.  Hell, I tried using a lightweight sheet as it lightly hung and brushed across my dick for a few strokes and that caused an eruption of new inflammation and shortening.  Making sure you don't do that as well as being very careful with how you sleep on it will prevent any further progression of the disease in my opinion.  When the feeling in the dick is just like it used to be with no shadow of pain (could be 2-4 years ) then it will be safe to resume normal activities.  Finally, I would be careful with some of these supplements.  Some of these medications will cause the dick to swell in size from the extra blood, and that in my experience caused pain and probably influenced an acceleration of progression when I did masturbate on the very few times in the early stages.  I would simply let nature take its course while taking a one a day vitamin.  Also, what has happened probably is that you have one or two small tears of the tunica near the head as that is what I could see when my dick was inflammed- two small x's under the skin that were inflamed.   Taking supplements that engorge the dick also would tend to stretch the area that is trying to heal.

[wasa]

When I do workouts with weights in the gym or just regular push-ups it seems that right after I get an annoying feeling in my penis, some dull feeling of pain. I can't see the connection how exercise could affect Peyronies Disease in a bad way, but I do wonder if anyone else has noticed this?

[roadblock]

I wanted to revisit a topic that I believe warrants periodic review. How many of you, AFTER your disease has stabilized, have experienced any improvement in terms of increased penile dimensions?  

[George999]

I just want to challenge a concept here.  I am not convinced that pain is ALWAYS a bad sign.  Surely inflammation is bad and we need to do everything we can to prevent and suppress it.  But pain can also simply be part of the general and healthy healing process.  So I really don't know how much concern we should have regarding pain, but I suspect we tend to be overly concerned about it.  If you engage in rough sex and that leads to pain, that is surely not good.  But if you are not inflicting trauma, normal exercise for example, I can't see where pain would be a bad thing, in fact it might actually be a good thing.  The only concerning issue is that you do not over stress yourself leading to an abnormally large release of cortisol.

- George

[Hawk]

George,

Having been through physical therapy a few times for injuries and surgery, and having a fair knowledge of exercise physiology, i cannot think of many if any situations in which pain is a good sign.

Granted, rehab on a knee with an ACL graft can be painful, but the pain is not the point nor is it a good sign.  No one is disappointed if you perform the PT with no pain (although I often accused the therapists of this;).  It does not signify healing or improvement.  Improvement is the result of increased muscle tone, flexibility, and wound mending.  None of these things cause pain.  Pain is a side effect of the activity that will, stretch, and strengthen.  I have a lot of problem applying this concept to penile pain in Peyronies Disease.  In Peyronies Disease, pain is the result of inflammation in the flaccid or erect state.  It is not caused as a side effect of something that is fixing the problem.  It is a side effect of the problem itself and as such, it is part of the problem.

[Tim468]

Wasa, I have had a dull ache in my penis after long bike rides (which I attributed to the saddle) and after particularly strenuous exercise. I have never really known what to make of it, but it usually went away with a bit of quick tugging and massage. FWIW, I also noted that it always was accompanied by a severe case of "shrinkage". That implied to me that the ache was from the smooth muscles contracting that pull us up when stressed or cold. It has also been my experience that this happens to me under stress, with too much caffeine, and in a few other situations. I have learned to associate it (rightly or wrongly) with progression of my Peyronies Disease. My body tells me to do something - and what I did for many years was to try to get an erection ASAP by milking my penis hard. The ache would go away as the penis had to "relax" (getting hard is incompatible with shrinkage!) and for some reason, I "knew" that I was doing the right thing to prevent progression of my Peyronies Disease.

Just my two cents worth.

Tim

[rcrj]

In response to what tdsc suggests below about ceasing sexual activity of all kinds for an extraordinary period of time, I'm wondering what the experiences of people who've tried this have been with regard to the semen/"fluid" pressure building up and causing other problems, including to the prostate.  Also, posters make such a point about erection blood flow playing a role in healing, I also wonder if erections (and therefore increased "fluid" pressure) should be encouraged with such a strategy.  Finally, has anyone else has had experience with the temporary size gain from grape seed extract and vitamin E-- any residual effect on the scar/inflammation from the stretching.

Robert

[PJ]

I might be reading this wrong. Did you suggest that semen builds up and causes pressure? That's not really how it works, if that's what you were suggesting.
---PJ

[Liam]

I'm on my grape extract protocol as we speak.  The only size gain noticed is a big head some mornings  

I break my self up!!!

[rcrj]

I meant that from avoiding any sexual release for such an extended period, there could be congestion throughout one's reproductive system that could create other issues.

Robert

[Liam]

Thought this was good.  Its a "video" about sperm production from www.howstuffworks.com  :

http://health.howstuffworks.com/adam-200126.htm

[Hawk]

I notice a lot of posts on every subject in the "Oral Treatment" thread.  I want to make a comment or two here.

A curve is caused by shortening of the tunica (failure to stretch as long as the other side).  A curve will only straighten if the long side is also shortened. It can be shortened by surgery or by Peyronies Disease progression.  OR if the short side becomes longer again.  To say, "I think a treatment will straighten a curve but not return any size" is absolutely inconsistent with what a curve is.

Next, plaque reduction IS TYPICAL.  I mean by this that it is typical for a plaque to feel smaller as Peyronies Disease matures.  This is documented by most urologists that are considered Peyronies Disease experts.  This is different than improvement since the plaque seems to contract to a smaller tighter size without an improvement in deformity.  I would never assess a treatment on reduced plaque size.  There is no goal to reduce the palpable size of plaque.  The goal is to reduce deformity and increase erections. (or at least prevent more deformity and loss of erections) We must remind ourselves that this is the only assessment that counts.  All other measures cloud the issue and perpetuate the problem of assessment.

[ComeBacKid]

I agree with your theory on the plaque reducing.  It seems that my plaque is reducing or hardening- this has made my bend a tad bit worse, and caused more shortening along with loss of elasticity.  What I've been saying to rico and others however, is that if you can inject say AA4500 into your plaque, and it indeed does reduce ones bend, than you are gaining size back.  Mainly because in order to straighten out you'd have to make the short side more elastic, I think we agree on that.  The main things to look for in a potential treatment then would be a significant decrease in the bend, or in some odd situations, an increase in size but keeping the same amount of bend. I've noticed with my curve, that during a semi erection I have a very noticeable bend, but if more blood is pumped in or more stimulation is consistently applied, my penis straightens out pretty well.  

ComeBackid

[meanmrmustard]

URGENT ADVICE PLEASE

I have noticed that my Peyronies Disease has gotten worse, possibly due to one of the factors I'll list later in this post. Plus in the past 3 days i felt a strange burning pain inside of my p., which leads me to the conclusion that there's bad things going on as to the inflammation.

Five years have past since my injury that later on lead to Peyronies Disease. Recently I've been taking VitE, Cialis twice a week and pentox. worst thing is, that it was probably the (relational) high number of intercourses that worsened the condition.

Now what are the best meds/supplements to take in a state of acute inflammation? do you suggest to not have sex? would you stop taking E, pontax or cialis? is high blood flow good or could it carry the inflammation on to other areas?
problem is that i can't go and see my doc because i'm currently living abroad (in spain) as an exchange student.

another thing is that i've lately noticed a lot of new plaques - all down over the place where the scrotum is "fixed to" down to the bump between scrotum and anus, all full of irregular strange corroborations. are these plaques or are plaques usually only along the shaft?

___________

my core question is what meds to take right now ... antibiotics in avoidance of infection? if yes, what kind of antibiotics should I ask for in the pharmacy? thanks guys

___________

EDIT: doing some reading lead me to the conclusion that what i actually have is probably a lump in the testicles. will see a doctor tomorrow and try to think of sth else meanwhile (haha)

[Tim468]

I had trouble understanding some of what you wrote. But I think that it might be of value to take some ibuprofen or a similar non-steroidal anti-inflammatory medication. When my Peyronies Disease acted up over the eyars, I believe that I limited the progression at that time by using ibuprofen. For that med, I used 800 mg three times a day for two weeks (maximum dose).

I might avoid intercourse, but would try to get daily erections or use the VED. i think that non-traumatic stretching is of value.

Good luck and let's see what the uro says.

Tim

[meanmrmustard]

english is obviously not my mother tounge; I am thankful for your advice, unfortunately I couldn't get an appointment, will possibly get one tomorrow. will try to obtain the anti-inflammatory you named

[howcanthisbe]

ok guys, I have a question about the dents that come with Peyronies Disease. What is the dent? I have read different things and was just wondering this today. Is a dent where plaque use to be and it left a area open so to speak, or is the dent scar tissue thats not expanding normally like it use to? Does anyone know for sure anyways what the dents are? Im talking about the hourglass effect or half hourglass effect etc. What causes that? I have heard alot of people say when the plauque leaves thats what is left.

[Old Man]

HCTB:

I suppose there is a medical term that would apply to the dent left the plaque is gone, but have not been savvy to it.

In my case, there is a small dent left where the largest plaque area was about midway down the shaft. My curve was downward and to the right. The plaque was about the size of a quarter on the left side. This is where the dent is now only when erect. Not very noticeable at all when flaccid. At times, I can feel a small thin area that is firmer than the other tissue in the old plaque area.

Some guys have the dent left and others have no sign, so I would say that the dent(s) are relative to each individual.

Others may have an opinion or facts about this.

Old Man

[Tim468]

Dear Goon (and may I suggest a more self-assured sounding name?)

You don't say what you want. If that is how you talk to your girlfriend, then that may hamper your communication greatly. My advice is that you take some time (it seems typing is not your thing - it is not the thing of a lot of guys here!) and tell us what it is that is wrong and what it is that you are looking for. If nothing else, that may help you understand what it is that YOU need, and help communication later at home.

Tim

[howcanthisbe]

Thanks Oldman. So your saying the dent is not scar tissue but rather a area left behind...a gap from where the plaque use to be?

[Hawk]

HCTB,

You asked what causes a dent.  I think you may have somewhat misunderstood Old Man's reply.  I post this here since it has to do with the normal progression of Peyronies Disease.

I will share my understanding of a dent (which I also have).  A very common progression for Peyronies Disease is plaque or scar tissue that is palpable, meaning it can be felt.  Scar tissue and plaque are two names for the very same thing.  The plaque deforms the erect penis in a variety of ways depending on the size, shape, and location of the plaque.  This results in curves, twists, dents, hour glass, and bottleneck, formations of the erect penis because the area where the plaque is cannot stretch and fill out.  Very often, in fact typically, plaque decreases in size as it matures.  For instance an area that felt pea sized now feels like it is BB sized.  Sometimes the plaque can no longer be felt, meaning it is not palpable.  This is not usually curing although I guess it could be sometimes.  Most often it is actually the normal plaque maturing and contracting process.  Sometimes the contracting contracts down to the point you can not feel anything, but the fact that you have a dent, tells you that non-elastic scar tissue (plaque) is still there.  If it is just a dent, it is because it is usually only a spot of scar tissue.  A streak of scar tissue running length-wise causes a bend, and a band of scar tissue going around the penis causes an hour glass or bottle neck depending where it is.

A dent is a spot of plaque that may or may not be palpable depending on how much it has contracted down as it matured.

[howcanthisbe]

Thanks Hawk. So is the dent in the later part of the progression of Peyronies Disease or does it varie? I can live with the dent, im just wondering is the dent only the beginning of horrible things to come to a more severe bend etc? I guess there isnt a set path that Peyronies Disease takes right? I guess in wondering if this dent if its scar tissue will it turn into a very hard spot because it doesnt feel hard right now. Thanks for the help.

[Hawk]

HCTB,

I don't think anyone anywhere can answer how your Peyronies Disease will progress from this point.  Sometimes a dent or a bend marks the end of the only incident of Peyronies Disease progression a man will ever have.  Sometimes it is only the first of a stream of such scar tissue formations, sometimes the scar tissue will actually reverse to some degree (either spontaneously or through treatments).

I wish I had a better answer for that one.

[howcanthisbe]

Thanks Hawk and Old man. Thats the only answer I can expect,lol. Like you guys said nobody knows for sure and it varies guy to guy. Well anyways I will be on and off here, you know how sporadic my visits are,lol. So talk to you guys in the near future.

[Rzz]

Anybody heard of this:

When I first got Peyronies Disease, the nodule was up pretty close to the head. About 9 months later another nodule formed on the shaft about 1/3 up from the pubic region. Of course I was really bummed about a second nodule. Then about 5 months after that, the first nodule resolved itself. Of course I was then jumping for joy thinking in about in about 8-9 months the second nodule would do the same. It NEVER did and is still there!! In all my time on the forums and through all my research, I've come across very little information that addresses this. Has anybody heard much of somebody having Peyronies Disease and some of it resolves itself and some of it does not. Because, considering what they claim to know about Peyronies Disease, this type of pattern does not make sense. Very odd!


Also, unfortunetley we all know the chances of Peyronies Disease resolving itself is very low. Much lower than was first claimed by the medical community. 30% my ass!! At least they are now lowering the % to a more realistic number of around 10%-15%, but I STRONGLY believe it is more in the 3%-7% at best. Anyway, if the Peyronies Disease is to resolve itself, research says it will occur within the first 2 years of onset. I unfortunetley am way past that time frame. Has anybody heard of any cases in which the Peyronies Disease resolved itself later than the 2 year time frame. I'm not talking about 2 years and 7 months or anything. I'm sure there are some cases in which it may have taken just a little longer than 2 years. I'm talking about 4, 5, 6 years or even longer. I know, wishful thinking, but has anybody heard of ANY cases or even 1 case of this happening?

Rzz

[mark501]

In early 2005 I had 4 dents (2 on each side) & the beginning of the hinge effect.  By late 2006 all 4 dents were gone 100% & no hint of the hinge effect. While I have used many oral supplements to treat peyronie's I give most of the credit of elimination of dents to use of topical magnesium sulfate. I have used this topical preparation daily for almost 2 years now. For me it worked however it is very slow in its action & may not work for others. Normally I use 200mg, 3 times a day.

[Rico]

Mark501,

Is the magesium sulfate cream you are using transdermal? I do like epsom salts and know they work on nerves and sprains ect.... after reading your post I found some that is transdermal cream from spain, is this what you are using? Thank you and God Bless...

Rico

[George999]

Rzz,  Everything you are describing sounds very familiar.  The way this disease progresses is not like the way it is often described.  There are subtle background vectors that cause it to ebb and flow over time.  In some cases it persists, in others it goes away and in still others it goes away and then comes back.  I started out with one nodule and then, all of a sudden, another appeared way down the shaft just like you have experienced.  If you do nothing, I can pretty much assure you that it will not resolve itself.  On the other hand, I am using supplements, diet, and exercise and that is getting results by keeping it in check and then some.  In my case it ebbs and flows with time, but I can say that it has regressed at this point to the degree that I have never been in better shape than now since I started dealing with a bit over a year ago (I first had symptoms in early 2004).  So I am convinced that it is never untreatable even for those that have calcifications.  It is harder to deal with and might require something like Pentox and/or VED, but there is always a lot of hope.  Its a matter of understanding the physiology behind it (TGF-beta, etc.) and then dealing with that in a consistent, rational manner.  You have to fight it blindly because the day to day improvement is so small you won't be able to tell the difference.  You just have to KNOW you are doing the right thing and keep plugging away and always be willing to learn and apply new strategies without slacking off on the existing ones and gradually you can push back on it effectively over time.  The latest thing I have discovered is that if I aggressively massage the plaques to the point of inflaming them, it will make them soften and relax and so far they haven't shown any tendency to rebound.  I am pursuing this while making sure that I am always on heavy duty anti-inflammatory supplements so that they can't 'reactivate' again and rebound on me.  I am always willing to learn new things, like for example, Mark's experience with topical magnesium sulfate.  SO - Mark - Please share more about the product you are using and any necessary details as to how the rest of us can benefit from this strategy!  It is really a matter of finding out from the posts on this forum what works and combining the ones that can fit together in a unified strategy to knock out this disease.  It is very tenacious and it takes the application of multiple vectors over an extended period of time to push it back and out of our lives, but I am convinced by my own experience that it can be done.  People don't just get over Peyronies by chance.  There is some reason that a few get over it and most do not.  That is the question that needs to be answered.  What is it that is different about the people who get over it from the rest of us who don't?

[bodoo2u]

  Can anyone tell me how you measure the angle of your curve?

[Old Man]

booddo2u:

I suppose the best way to measure the angle of the curve would be in the erect state, if that is possible.

The way I do it is this: Get an erection, either with help or by spontaneous method. Looking downward observe which way the curve goes. Assume that straight from your body is the initial point, let that be the 0 degrees and then measure the degrees either right or left from that point up a 90 degree right or left angle.

Measuring either upward or downward curve/bend is done in the same manner assuming the straight out position as the 0 starting point. (I have seen pictures of penises with almost 180 degree curve bending back toward their body.)

Sound confusing, but that is the way that I measure my curves/bends, angles, etc.

Others may have a better method and I am sure you will get other remarks.

Old Man

[bodoo2u]

Ahhh, the wisdom of an "Old Man". Thanks once again.  

[Liam]

The easiest way to derive the formula is to use analytic geometry. Let the rod start from the origin of a
cartesian coordinate system, with the end elevation being the projection of the rod onto the y-z plane andthe side elevation being the projection of the rod onto the x-z plane. I'm not sure whether your angles are the angles from the vertical or from the horizontal, but it turns out that the formula is simplest if all angles are from the vertical, so that's how I'll define the angles.

The point on the rod at height 1 unit above the x-y plane has some coordinates (x,y,1). In the end elevation, this point has coordinates (y,1) and the tangent of the angle from the vertical, which I'll call alpha, is y/1. In the side elevation, the point has coordinates (x,1) and the tangent of the angle from the vertical (I'll call it beta) is x/1.

The compound angle theta is the angle between the rod and the z axis.  The distance between the point (x,y,1) and the z axis is

 r = sqrt(x^2+y^2),

so

 tan(theta) = r/1

            = sqrt(x^2 + y^2)

            = sqrt(tan^2(alpha) + tan^2(beta))

and our formula for the compound angle is

 theta = arctan(sqrt(tan^2(alpha) + tan^2(beta))

If the angles from the vertical in the two elevations are 32 degrees and 48 degrees, then

 alpha = 32 degrees; tan(alpha) = 0.624869

 beta  = 48 degrees; tan(beta)  = 1.110613

 tan^2(alpha) + tan^2(beta) = 0.624869*0.624869 + 1.110613*1.110613

                            = 1.623922

 sqrt(tan^2(alpha) + tan^2(beta)) = 1.274332

 theta = arctan(1.274332)

       = 51.87 degrees

I hope this does the trick for you!

Or you could just make a guess at it.  

[Steve]

 
Yes, but the sqrt of a number can yield either a positive or negative result.  Therefore, the final deviation could be -51.87 degrees too!

[Angus]

   Here is a conventional protractor you can print if you really want to know the angle. It can be folded in half on the 90 degree line and one side used for bends to the right and the other side for bends to the left. You could use a mirror to measure upwards or downwards curves (or get a helper). Put the "zero" edge of the protractor against your body and your penis will point to the approximate angle. The file is a .pdf format so you'll need Adobe Reader to open and print it.  

[ThisSux]

My initial injury occured over 2 years ago due sexual activity while not fully erect (some scarring on the top of the shaft).

Now just a few hours ago I was having sex with my girlfriend and I think I may have injured it again.
Basically it was a classic I pulled out and then she moved toward me ...I missed and jammed it against her or the mattress (not sure).

This isn't the same type of injury as before but I am really scared.Basically i think it buckled a bit in the middle and this is where it hurts... its not extreme or anything and not black or blue. Is there anything I can do to help ensure I don't develope a new plaque?

I have taken Advil and ALCAR as well as Arginine.

Any advice is appreciated...

TS

[Hawk]

I am speculating a bit but I think I would lay off the Arginine for a week or two and concentrate on the anti-inflammatories and maybe even a cold pack for a few days to prevent any bleeding/bruising.  After that initial period I would concentrate on increased blood flow with such things as (arginine, ginko, gentle heat, pentox).

[ThisSux]

Thanks hawk for the amazingly quick reply.

The reason I was thinking Arginine is because it supposedly has some antifibrotic action: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14996430&dopt=Citation

I think you may be right though in that possibly arginine could make inflammation worse.

[Liam]

Fracture of the Penis

No, it's not a myth; it can happen if undue force is applied to an erect penis.

Symptoms include

Immediate loss of erection
Pain
Bruising
A cracking noise
Bleeding from the urethra
These symptoms are actually caused by a tear in the tunica albuginea, which is a tough, fibrous layer covering the corpora cavernosa**
Anyone suspecting that they may have injured their penis in this way should seek help and advice. Treatment usually consists of
Ice packs
Painkillers
Support
Anti-inflammatory drugs such as ibuprofen
These measures usually result in a satisfactory outcome in the majority of cases, a satisfactory outcome being measured by normal functioning and no residual anatomical deformity (eg angled erection).
Investigations are likely to be needed to determine the extent of the injury and include ultrasound, xrays and occasionally mri scan. Surgery may be necessary to repair the damage.

**the part of the penis which becomes swollen and engorged with blood, producing an erection.


http://www.studenthealth.co.uk/advice/advice.asp?adviceID=187

Hawk nails it again!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For a little comic relief (don't get any ideas)

BOSTON -- A woman isn't legally responsible for injuries her boyfriend suffered while they were having consensual sex more than a decade ago, a state appeals court ruled Monday.

The man, identified only as John Doe in court papers, filed suit against the woman in 1997, claiming she was negligent when she suddenly changed positions, landed awkwardly on him and fractured his penis.

The man underwent emergency surgery in September 1994, "endured a painful and lengthy recovery" and has suffered from sexual dysfunction that hasn't responded to medication or counseling, the appeals court said.

Although the woman may have exposed her boyfriend to "some risk of harm," the three-judge panel said her conduct during the sexual encounter wasn't "wanton or reckless" and can't support a lawsuit.

The man's lawsuit already has been thrown out by judges in Salem District Court and Essex Superior Court.

The appeals court upheld those rulings while noting that its ruling doesn't apply to cases where someone has negligently infected a partner with a sexually transmitted disease.

"There are no comprehensive legal rules to regulate consensual sexual behavior," Justice Joseph Trainor wrote. "In the absence of a consensus of community values or customs defining normal consensual conduct, a jury or judge cannot be expected to resolve a claim that certain consensual sexual conduct is undertaken without reasonable care."

The man's attorney, John Greenwood, said he is likely to appeal Monday's ruling to the state's highest court.

"It's a case that hasn't been seen before in Massachusetts," he said.

Greenwood argued that consensual sex doesn't mean "anything goes. ... The fact that some behavior was agreed to by the parties doesn't mean all behavior was agreed to by the parties."

The District Court judge who threw out the case said he was reluctant to "expand the reach of tort law further into the bedrooms" of Massachusetts. He also noted the Legislature is free to clear up any legal ambiguities by passing a law defining negligent sexual intercourse.

The appeals court's judges ruled against the man on slightly different grounds than the lower courts. They said the woman didn't owe her boyfriend a "duty of reasonable care" during consensual sex. And they didn't find any evidence she knew her conduct was likely to harm him.

"Here, the undisputed facts demonstrate that the defendant did not think about possible injury to the plaintiff when she changed her position," they wrote.

[ThisSux]

Liam,

That bottom story is rather hilarious I must say. Thanks for the bit of comic relief.

Hopefully my injury is just superficial... but this sentence in the first bit:

These measures usually result in a satisfactory outcome in the majority of cases, a satisfactory outcome being measured by normal functioning and no residual anatomical deformity (eg angled erection).

does worry me a bit because arguably those that do not have residiual deformity aren't genetically predisposed to peyronies...compared to some of the rest of us. Unless it takes a certain type or degree of injury to set things in motion and who knows what rules apply to those of us that already have plaques etc.

This is a complicated and worrisome illness!!

Thanks for all of the support everyone.

ThisSux

//Still hoping for collagenase

[Liam]

Great point.  In my case there was no trauma that I noticed.  The predisposition was there, though, as evidenced by my having frozen shoulder in each of my shoulders.  This started two years prior to Peyronies Disease.

I think its a good idea to treat the trauma and inflamation, though.  Can't hurt.

I have been treating a back injury with some strong nsaids and prednisone (finished that now).  My Peyronies Disease which had been painful seems to have "calmed down" as a side benefit.  And, erections seem better (no objctive measure, though)  .

[Daniel]

Hello everyone,

Firstly, thank you for having such a community--the information here is overwhelming and the members all seem so willing to share and help.

I've spent many hours reading and searching through these forums before making this post, so hopefully not too much of what I'm presenting is duplicated...or maybe all of it has already been; the number of posts here is staggering!  I also hope I've posted this in the most appropriate forum thread.

I've had Peyronie's since around 2002.  The urologists I had seen at the time, much like the experience of many here I've read, didn't offer much.  Prescribed some antibiotic for a short duration and told me to come back in 3 months.  Fast forward now to the present.  For about 2 months now, I suddenly noticed improvements in my condition: regained some length (use to be close to 7", went down to about 5", but since these last 2 months it's at 6") and girth and greater rigidity (thought not perfect at all) and little less curve (it is now 5-10 degrees when erect and up to 35 degrees, depending on weather, when flacid; this is all eyeballing)--but the slight narrowing at the base of the shaft when erect remains.  I no longer ejaculate quite as fast (after a few minutes now) but it would still be classified as premature ejaculation which I did not have before developing Peyronies.  Pain has come and gone throughout these 5+ years; I have slight pain presently.  Also, I developed a reoccurring angioedema on the underside of the shaft, near the head; this came and went for about a year.  And besides that initial antibiotic, I have never taken any medication or treatments to address my Peyronies--I was sadly unaware of amazing sites like this all that time.  That would sum up the more salient points in the timeline of my Peyronies misery.  Following are some questions that I hope people in this community would be able to help me with.  Thank you so much for any of your thoughts or information or personal experiences.

1) From what I've read in this forum and other health sites, it seems the initial 18 months are usually when any progress, good or bad, occurs.  Is it therefore very abnormal for me to have experienced this sudden improvement after roughly 5 years of mostly stable Peyronies?

2) When I first developed Peyronies, for perhaps the first year or so, the quality/appearance of my semen constantly fluctuated.  Sometimes it was very liquidy, or dark yellowish, or there was even bits of blood.  I've told this to the handful of seemingly uninformed urologists I have seen and none of them thought anything of it--I would have thought blood in the semen would have gotten more of a reaction!  So far in reading the posts here, I haven't come across yet anyone describe what changes can occur to their semen with Peyronies.  Has anyone here had semen similar to what I described?  (My semen is normal looking now.)

3) Would doing kegel exercises possibly help any aspect of Peyronies or would it simply irritate the plaque and exacerbate the problem?

4)  Due to my present situation where I'm seeing slight improvement, is there anything in particular I should be doing (diet, vitamin e, exercise, etc) to try to capitalize on this period of progress?

5)  One of the urologists I had seen when I initially developed Peyronies gave me a paper with Do's and Don'ts.  Could you all help me in assessing if you believe there's truth (whether by your own experience or from what you've heard from your doctor) in any of these:
-Do's
Two quarts of water a day
Cranberry juice
Cranactin
Site baths at 98-102 degrees, no bubble/soap

-Dont's
Coffee (Tea is ok, it's not the caffeiene, he says)
Alcohol
Spicey foods
Citrus
Bananas
Nutrasweet (Sweet & Low is ok)

6) Since the tocopherol in Vitamin E (thank you George999 for all your hugely informative Vitamin E posts) acts as a strong antioxidant, would drinking Pomegranate Juice (exceptionally high in antioxidants) be worth a consideration?  I suspect the doctor recommended Cranberry juice cause it helps to cleanse the urinary system but I believe it has antioxidants too, so perhaps Cranberry Juice would also be worth considering?  Or any other food with antioxidants, like chocolate, etc...

7) A very general question.  Are there any particular foods that people here always avoid or make sure they include in their diet?

8 ) Should masturbation/sex be limited or lessened when there is pain, as opposed to the times when there isn't pain?  Or is it always best to get an erection or ejaculate once a day to get blood flowing in the penis regularly?

9) Lastly, just today, as I was trimming my pubic hair, I very slightly snipped the surface of the skin, at around the area where the shaft meets the scrotum, on the underside.  It seems to be closer to the scrotum.  Hard to tell.  This happened once before but I didn't have Peyronies then, so I didn't freak out.  It healed just like any other part of the body.  Now that I have Peyronies, I might be a little alarmist: this won't cause a plaque to form will it?  Since trauma (although this is just a tiny surface cut) would have to occur at the tunica albuginea level, not just the surface of the skin.

Thank you for reading.  I look forward to any input or recommendations!  I wish you all well and hopefully improvement with your condition.

[blarin]

Good afternoon, this is the first time I post on this forum.

I was diagnosed with peyronies in August 2004. The lump was at the base of the shaft and the curvature is minimal. I tried treatments such as Vitamin E, Potaba and Verapamil injections. All of these treatments didn't really do much to improve my situation. After a year and a half (February 2006) the pain while erected went away by itself and I hadn't felt any pain since.

I started taking an anti-depressant (Paxil) 9 weeks ago for my OCD. Two weeks ago the pain started again and I feel like the curvature in my penis is getting worse. Does anyone know if an anti-depressant could cause the pain to come back?

Thank you in advance.

Ben

[George999]

Welcome Daniel!

1) From what I've read in this forum and other health sites, it seems the initial 18 months are usually when any progress, good or bad, occurs.  Is it therefore very abnormal for me to have experienced this sudden improvement after roughly 5 years of mostly stable Peyronies?

I have heard this over and over and over.  From my own experience, I think that while this may be a common perception, the reality is that these Peyronies lesions remain extremely dynamic.  Part of the problem is that evaluating progress or regression is extremely subjective.  Things may seem to be improving, but actually getting worse.  For example, the plaque could be spreading in a way that would actually result in straightening.  However, the opposite is also true.  Things could actually be improving, and yet conditions like curvature could be worsening.  The fact that you have observed improvements in length and girth, however, seem to me like a very good sign with some objective evidence accompanying them.  You should be rejoicing.  We would all hope that this improving trend will continue.  I actually believe that Pyronies has as its root cause some metabolic aberrations,  and that if those metabolic aberrations are removed and/or corrected, the Peyronies damage should heal on its own.  This is just my personal speculation that is unsupported by any reasonable scientific evidence.  But it is just cases like yours that reinforce that conviction.  Also, I was able to reduce an old hardened plaque by close to 90% with Camphor.  Unfortunately, it didn't work for anybody else, but the one major concept I took away from the experience was that, if an old hardened plaque can be reduced so dramatically, certainly Peyronies itself is reversible.  What we really don't know yet is the how part.

2) When I first developed Peyronies, for perhaps the first year or so, the quality/appearance of my semen constantly fluctuated.  Sometimes it was very liquidy, or dark yellowish, or there was even bits of blood.  I've told this to the handful of seemingly uninformed urologists I have seen and none of them thought anything of it--I would have thought blood in the semen would have gotten more of a reaction!  So far in reading the posts here, I haven't come across yet anyone describe what changes can occur to their semen with Peyronies.  Has anyone here had semen similar to what I described?  (My semen is normal looking now.)

EVERY urologist I have consulted with (and the number is legion) has insisted that condition of semen is meaningless and that blood in semen is common and often associated with prostate infections.  Bottom line, I wouldn't be concerned about it or attach any significance to it unless it (blood in semen) continues over a long period of time.

3) Would doing kegel exercises possibly help any aspect of Peyronies or would it simply irritate the plaque and exacerbate the problem?

Most docs seem to believe that kegels are a good thing.  I think I would agree with that.  The major problem with kegels has more to do with maintaining the discipline to do them regularly.  I have NEVER heard anything to indicate that they might be bad for Peyronies.

4)  Due to my present situation where I'm seeing slight improvement, is there anything in particular I should be doing (diet, vitamin e, exercise, etc) to try to capitalize on this period of progress?

I think all of us here are taking slightly different approaches.  I don't think any of us have discovered a magic bullet.  You just have to review the posts and decide how far you want to go and how much money you want to put into it.  There are a number of different approaches.  I don't think any of them have proven to be a 'gold standard'.  The approach that seems to hold the most promise at this point is Pentox, but with as few problems as you are having, I don't think you could get a prescription for it and I'm not sure it would even be wise for you to take it.

5)  One of the urologists I had seen when I initially developed Peyronies gave me a paper with Do's and Don'ts.  Could you all help me in assessing if you believe there's truth (whether by your own experience or from what you've heard from your doctor) in any of these:
-Do's
Two quarts of water a day
Cranberry juice
Cranactin
Site baths at 98-102 degrees, no bubble/soap

-Dont's
Coffee (Tea is ok, it's not the caffeiene, he says)
Alcohol
Spicey foods
Citrus
Bananas
Nutrasweet (Sweet & Low is ok)

These are classic recommendations for urinary tract infections.  I don't see any connection with Peyronies in any of them.

6) Since the tocopherol in Vitamin E (thank you George999 for all your hugely informative Vitamin E posts) acts as a strong antioxidant, would drinking Pomegranate Juice (exceptionally high in antioxidants) be worth a consideration?  I suspect the doctor recommended Cranberry juice cause it helps to cleanse the urinary system but I believe it has antioxidants too, so perhaps Cranberry Juice would also be worth considering?  Or any other food with antioxidants, like chocolate, etc...

Again, the jury is still out on this.  I take tons of anti-oxidants.  Has it helped?  Who knows?  Outside of a carefully planned study, it is really impossible to objectively evaluate things like this.  I take them.  I believe in them.  But really, no one knows how they actually impact Peyronies.  But I have personally found that Vitamin E does seem to be helpful (but that is just my subjective observation).  (Thanks for the feedback on my Vitamin E posts!).

7) A very general question.  Are there any particular foods that people here always avoid or make sure they include in their diet?

Personally, I ALWAYS try to avoid food with inflammatory fats and favor foods with anti-inflammatory fats.  That means avoiding things like red meat and other sources of saturated and trans fat. and using things like olive oil, fish oil, and flaxseed oil regularly.

8 ) Should masturbation/sex be limited or lessened when there is pain, as opposed to the times when there isn't pain?  Or is it always best to get an erection or ejaculate once a day to get blood flowing in the penis regularly?

The answer to this question is to simply use common sense.  If it is painful, don't do it.  In general, erections are a good thing, even if they are accompanied by pain.

9) Lastly, just today, as I was trimming my pubic hair, I very slightly snipped the surface of the skin, at around the area where the shaft meets the scrotum, on the underside.  It seems to be closer to the scrotum.  Hard to tell.  This happened once before but I didn't have Peyronies then, so I didn't freak out.  It healed just like any other part of the body.  Now that I have Peyronies, I might be a little alarmist: this won't cause a plaque to form will it?  Since trauma (although this is just a tiny surface cut) would have to occur at the tunica albuginea level, not just the surface of the skin.

I can  only tell you that if it were me, I would not be very worried.  I have never heard of Peyronies happening this way.  I would be totally amazed if it did not heal just as completely as the last time it happened.

- George

[Liam]

I've seen people speculate about antidepressants and Peyronies Disease.  I've even seen it listed as a "rare" side effect for certain drugs.  I have never seen any real hard evidence, though.  I would expect to see more men, or at least more discussion,  here if antidepressants caused or worsened the condition.  

Daniel,

I liked what George said.

I find it really curious a doctor gave you antibiotic.  Did he mention phlebtis with an infection or the posibility of an infection?  

[Tim468]

I thought that Gandalf was pretty sure that there was at least a temporal relationship between antidepressants and the onset of Peyronie's Disease.

Tim

[Liam]

Maybe the depression, or the cause of the depression, caused the Peyronies Disease.  Maybe the earliest, and previously unnoticed, symptom of Peyronies Disease is depression.

Hell, I'm depressed just talking about it.

I think Hurricane Ivan had something to do with mine.....all the twisting.  And the low pressure must have disturbed the blood flow.  

Seriously, I think everyone wants to blame something other than bad genetic luck or karma (I'm making my list just in case) or predisposition or whatever.  There has to be one thing that "did it".  I guess thats human nature.  I notice masturbation has been cited as the cause ad nauseum.  Maybe it is misplaced guilt.  I'll leave that to the psychologist.  I thought, for a while, it might be Coca-Cola that caused mine.  I was drinking several soft drinks during the day because of the long hours I was working.  I did this for several years  .  It is very hard to detach yourself from your own circumstances and look at your situation with a neutral eye.  

[dahc]

Antidepressants can definitely cause rubbery erections in some people and that can put you at risk to injury.  

[Daniel]

Hello again,

Thank you so much for your reply George!  Sorry I didn't reply sooner.  Thought I had configured the settings to notify me of a reply via email.  Maybe I fudged that up.  I just came back from an appointment today with Dr Martin K Gelbard (his site: http://www.peyronies.net/), one of only 5 Peyronie's specialists in the state, at least according to here: http://peyroniesaassoc.org/x.php?p=Physician_Finder#D1

I came away from the appointment with mostly amazing news.  I told him everything I shared in the earlier post below and after an examination he told me I do not have Peyronies.  He stretched my flacid penis and told me that if I had Peyronies it would not have been possible to stretch it to the extent he did.  He said he felt absolutely no scarring and that it actually looked perfectly normal.  I asked if it would be best, to be safe, to take an ultrasound and he said he believed it would be unnecessary.  He believed that either I had had Peyronies 5 years ago (when this all first started) and that the plaques have since disappeared or that I had lost some elasticity and these past 2 months of improvement means a very positive return of elasticity.  He did suggest that I take 400UI of Vitamin E for a few years.  And that's it.  So I'm relieved that I don't have Peyronies, at least with some certainty.  But obviously still scared for the condition that I have now.  Hopefully it will continue to improve though.

I had mentioned to him that I had been reading extensively online forums and had never come across any accounts of people saying that they after having Peyronies that suddenly had premature ejaculation.  I asked is it common for Peyronies to give rise to premature ejaculation.  He said no.  

Is there anything in the doctor's conclusion that anyone here questions?  He seems to have the qualifications but I certainly appreciate any thoughts on this.  Basically, I would like to make certain it really isn't Peyronies.  Perhaps I should see the one other Peyronie's specialist in LA (he and this doctor I saw today are the only 2 specialists within driving distance) some months from now for a confirmation/second opinion.

I thought I would share the doctor's answers to some of the questions I had posted here previously below, info for you all.

3) Would doing kegel exercises possibly help any aspect of Peyronies or would it simply irritate the plaque and exacerbate the problem?

Doc said it can be a good thing.  No fear of exacerbating Peyronies.

5)  One of the urologists I had seen when I initially developed Peyronies gave me a paper with Do's and Don'ts.  Could you all help me in assessing if you believe there's truth (whether by your own experience or from what you've heard from your doctor) in any of these:
-Do's
Two quarts of water a day
Cranberry juice
Cranactin
Site baths at 98-102 degrees, no bubble/soap

-Dont's
Coffee (Tea is ok, it's not the caffeiene, he says)
Alcohol
Spicey foods
Citrus
Bananas
Nutrasweet (Sweet & Low is ok)

He said he saw none of these recommendations particularily pertinent to Peyronies.

8 ) Should masturbation/sex be limited or lessened when there is pain, as opposed to the times when there isn't pain?  Or is it always best to get an erection or ejaculate once a day to get blood flowing in the penis regularly?

He said to not have sex/masturbation when there is pain and if pain arises during sex/masturbation, simply stop.


best,
Daniel

[Liam]

Great news!  Seems like Dr. Gelbard has a firm grip on Peyronies Disease  

Seriously, thanks for letting us know the follow up.  One thing I am curious about is your age when you first noticed the symptoms.

Maybe I've been wrong about spontaneous recovery.  Maybe it was the lists of dos and don'ts the doc who diagnosed you gave.
Who cares?  Good report with sound advice!

Best of luck,

Liam