Possible Risks from L-Carnitine

[MrJones]

Hello,

In the frame of general information about oral treatments, unfortunately some possible adverse effects of using L-carnitine was raised and studied in this research published about the consumption of red meat in this article: BBC News - Red meat chemical 'damages heart', say US scientists

It seems that again the chain of effects that can arise from some additive enzymes or drugs in unreasonable quantities can do more harm than good in an unforeseeable way. This should not mean that it can have beneficial effects on the destruction of plaque but in the whole system of a healthy body to much of it may lead to other unwanted effects (such as heart diseases).


Kind Regards,
MrJones

[George999]

It is important to note that these adverse effects were observed in the CONTEXT the consumption of meat, not the use of carnitine supplements.  People who had a lifestyle that included the consumption of large amount of red meat reacted to carnitine BOTH in the meat AND in supplement form.  People who were NOT consuming large amounts of red meat did NOT react to carnitine in EITHER form.  The key to the whole thing is intestinal bacterial flora.  At this point there is no evidence that carnitine in isolation can nurture that flora like red meat does.  There is, of course, the possibility that it can, but the reality is that ALL MEDICATIONS AND SUPPLEMENTS that are effective have ADVERSE SIDE EFFECTS.  There is no way to avoid them.  So ... yes ... this is something that needs to be considered, but I don't think it is something one should be overly concerned about.  It is absolutely amazing that people continue to eat processed foods that are KNOWN to be SEVERELY detrimental to health and the MEDICAL ESTABLISHMENT instead obsesses over supplements and the presumed damage they may be causing.  In contrast, they worry very little about the real health damage that over used medications are causing.

[ashtown]

There have been several similar articles today in the UK press, which is actually what brought me to forum because I was concerned at the amount of Acetyl L-Carnitine I was taking and if it might be doing damage. During my research I found this study Comparison of the effects of L-carnitine an... [Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI. I don't know though how Acetyl L-Carnitine is affecting other parts of the body though. Here is one of those news stories Eating a lot of red meat can cause heart disease | Health | News | Daily Express

[james1947]

Two questions:
I like red meat, eat red meat, I would like to ask if not processed red meat, bought directly from the market very fresh have the same negative effects like processed meat.
&
What about pork meat?

James

[MtnSurf]

It is important to note that these adverse effects were observed in the CONTEXT the consumption of meat, not the use of carnitine supplements.  

Actually there definitely is research linking L-Carnitine supplements to heart disease and heart complications. I listened to an interview on the Diane Rehm show on NPR this week with a few cardiovascular/heart doctors. One of which is from the Cleveland Clinic who just published something on the connection between the two along with on going concerns for red meat consumption. If you google "L-Carnitine heart disease" numerous articles come up in the search. Hearing this interview concerned me because I've been taking the supplement for almost a year & my mom has had issues with heart disease along with others in her family. The research showed an increase in the likelihood of heart problems & complications both in humans & lab rats/mice with increased consumption of L-carnitine in supplement form.

L-Carnitine, Nutrient In Red Meat, Linked With Heart Disease

New Research On Red Meat And Heart Disease | The Diane Rehm Show from WAMU and NPR
_____________________________________________________________________
Note from Admin- I fixed the quote for you.  You can end a quote by typing brackets and a / like this: [/quote]

[George999]

Again, I think there is lot that is not being seen here.  The studies are all looking at L-Carnitine, NOT Acetyl-L-Carnitine.  The two are very different.  L-Carnitine has no demonstrated benefits for Peyronie's whatsoever and I certainly have never used it.  I also eat very little red meat.  Acetyl-L-Carnitine is acetylized Carnitine.  The acetylization process changes the Carnitine itself.  Until there is evidence that Acetyl-L-Carnitine has the same detrimental effects that L-Carnitine has, I really wouldn't waste sleep over it.  The bacteria in question thrive specifically on L-Carnitine.  Acetyl-L-Carnitine is NOT chemically the same as L-Carnitine.  Acetyl-L-Carnitine is READILY assimilated by the human body, L-Carnitine itself is notoriously difficult for the body to assimilate.  This begs the question as to whether any actual Carnitine makes it to the bacteria at all in the case of Acetyl-L-Carnitine.  This is the same sort of situation one encounters with non-assimilable sugar substitutes which pass on to the lower bowel area and feed noxious bacteria.  Take a deep breath on this one.

[George999]

ADDITIONALLY, if you are worried about the potential effects of carnitine, there are things that might mitigate them.  Like Aloe Vera.

Angiology. 1985 Aug;36( 8 ):485-92.
Prevention of atheromatous heart disease.
Agarwal OP.
Abstract

Five thousand patients of atheromatous heart disease, presented as angina pectoris, were studied over a period of five years. After adding the 'Husk of Isabgol' and 'aloe vera' (an indigenous plant known as ghee-guar-ka-paththa) to the diet, a marked reduction in total serum cholesterol, serum triglycerides, fasting and post prandial blood sugar level in diabetic patients, total lipids and also increase in HDL were noted. Simultaneously the clinical profile of these patients showed reduction in the frequency of anginal attacks and gradually, the drugs, like verapamil, nifedipine, beta-blockers and nitrates, were tapered. The patients, most benefitted, were diabetics (without adding any antidiabetic drug). The exact mechanism of the action of the above two substances is not known, but it appears, that probably they act by their high fibre contents. Both these substances need further evaluation. The most interesting aspect of the study was that no untoward side effect was noted and all the five thousand patients are surviving till date.

PMID:
   2864002
   [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[George999]

Here is a different perspective on the same study.

http://www.anh-usa.org/latest-red-meat-study-doubly-flawed/

[james1947]

Thanks for the link George.
Makes balance in the subject.

James

[George999]

And another:

http://www.lef.org/featured-articles/Rebuttal-to-Misleading-Carnitine-Report.htm

[UrsusMinor]

At the risk of flogging a dead horse, two excellent rebuttals from biochemist Chris Masterjohn:

http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/cmasterjohn/does-carnitine-from-red-meat-contribute-to-heart-disease-through-intestinal-bacterial-metabolism-to-tmao/

http://www.westonaprice.org/uncategorized/does-dietary-choline-contribute-to-heart-disease/

FULL DISCLOSURE: I'm a life-long vegetarian, and even I think the red meat/Carnitine heart studies were a load of dung.

[dplookin]

Just to add to the information about L-Carnitine.......It can also raise a person's blood pressure, I found out the hard way.  I had to look at a few websites to find out about the blood pressure problem created by L-Carnitine.  I actually surprised me that it would do this.  At one time I was taking it at 500mg a dose twice a day.  Then recently I started taking 1 gram twice a day, and that's when my blood pressure went High.  Just FYI....dplookin

[james1947]

As a rule, I am starting any new medication or supplement on a low dosage and increasing slowly to see if have some negative effect.

James

[UrsusMinor]

Just to add to the information about L-Carnitine.......It can also raise a person's blood pressure, I found out the hard way.  I had to look at a few websites to find out about the blood pressure problem created by L-Carnitine.  I actually surprised me that it would do this.

It's a little surprising to me as well, since Acetyl L- Carnitine has been shown to be effective at lowering blood pressure. But Acetyl L-Carnitine and L-Carnitine aren't the same substance (in the body, Acetyl L-Canrintine is produced fom L-Carnitine), so who knows?

That said, when I try to find references to L-Carnitine and blood pressure, all I can find offhand are mentions of studies showing that it lowers blood pressure, for example http://articles.latimes.com/2009/nov/30/health/la-he-nutrition30-2009nov30.

Of course, people differ. In my case, SAM-e raises my blood pressure; a lot of people use it as an anit-stress med.

In any case, I'm not sure why anyone on this forum would be supplementing with L-Carnitine in the first place.

[Caesar]

In any case, I'm not sure why anyone on this forum would be supplementing with L-Carnitine in the first place.

Agree.
Probably due to a confusion over the proper form of carnitine indicated for pain in Peyronie's disease.  

[skunkworks]

More than just pain:

Acetyl-L-carnitine was significantly more effective than tamoxifen in reducing pain and in inhibiting disease progression. Acetyl-L-carnitine reduced penile curvature significantly, while tamoxifen did not; both drugs significantly reduced plaque size. Tamoxifen induced significantly more side-effects than acetyl-L-carnitine.

[dplookin]

I have discovered that it depends on what websites a person reads in regards to side effects of different supplements.  Some websites say the supplement will raise blood pressure and others say it will lower blood pressure.  I fight with High Blood Pressure, and normally keep it low with Natural Supplements, so consequently I do a web search on a supplement before I take it, and the results I get at times can be confusing.  dplookin

[Caesar]

More than just pain:

You're right, I forgot that from the Biagiotti and Cavallini study. Thanks for the correction.

[UrsusMinor]

Some websites say the supplement will raise blood pressure and others say it will lower blood pressure....the results I get at times can be confusing.

For sure. One of the problems is that in many cases websites caution against taking a supplement if you have high blood pressure, and the logical assumption is that it will make it worse--i.e. raise blood pressure.

But when you dig back through the half-dozen websites that have (mis)quoted each other, it often seems that the original caution was something like "this supplement can lower blood pressure. Persons on antihypertensive medication should use this with caution, and only under their doctor's supervision, as the combination could lower blood pressure too much."

So something that is reported as lowering blood pressure goes through the internet meat grinder, and comes out as should be avoided by people with high blood pressure...and pretty soon it's "raises blood pressure."

Ah! The wonders of the Web!

[skunkworks]

L-Carnitine - Scientific Review on Usage, Dosage, Side Effects | Examine.com

[UrsusMinor]

You're right, I forgot that from the Biagiotti and Cavallini study. Thanks for the correction.

It's an important study.

That said, it's also an unusual study. They had the most impressive response of any study done--but the study group was composed of people in early stages, and with hardly any curvature. If I've read things right, the beginning mean was a curvature of 15.9 degrees...as opposed to 31-51 degrees in all the other major studies. And they had bigger percentage results than other oral meds...but when you're starting from 16 degrees, an 8 degree change is 50%! (I mean, hell, if I was only bent 16 degrees, I probably wouldn't be on this forum.)

I'm not knocking the study--I think it's important. And I take 1 g of ALCAR twice a day.

But it's a strange study...

And, since it's Acetyl L-Carnitine, it isn't clear that it has anything to do with L-Carnitine...

[George999]

The general risks posed by *most* supplements are low to non-existent.  Many of the studies showing harm from supplements are paid for by those who have a bias against supplements.  HOWEVER, there ARE some supplements on the market that are very dangerous.  For some reason the diet and body building sector tend to produce most of the dangerous supplements.

ALSO, BEWARE of DANGEROUS drug - supplement interactions and even supplement - supplement interactions.  Supplements that actually have value are potentially AS DANGEROUS if misused as are drugs.

EXAMPLES ->  Hypertension aka High Blood Pressure ->  A BP lowering supplement combined with a BP lowering prescription drug can cause your blood pressure to drop precipitously and potentially lead to death.  A BP raising supplement combined with a BP lowering prescription drug can cancel out the effect of the med and result in dangerously high blood pressure.  Some supplements raise blood pressure significantly in susceptible people.  And then there are combinations that will poison you and are VERY dangerous.  I have hypertension.  I take Losartan (aka Cozaar), a prescription ARB to control blood pressure.  Losartan causes the body to retain potassium to some degree, so I have to be very careful with potassium.  Too much potassium results in cardiac arrest.  Not a good thing at all.

Let me also relate a recent personal experience.  I suddenly started to experience changes in my heartbeat with palpitations and rapid change in heart rate.  It was to the point that I knew something was wrong.  For a long time I had taken potassium in carefully measured amounts determined by blood tests over time, along with the Losartan.  Potassium ALSO lowers blood pressure, so supplemental potassium can be very good for hypertensives.  But just before I experienced the cardio issues, I had a bout of increased blood pressure and decided to take yet another supplement for it.  That was pomegranate punicaligans (you can look that up on wikipedia).  Pomegranate punicaligans are powerful anti-hypertensives.  They are vascular anti-oxidants and also ACE-inhibitors AND diuretics.  ACE-inhibitors also cause potassium retention.  Diuretics (non-loop) cause major potassium retention.  Who knows how high I was driving my potassium levels.  I could have killed myself just with supplements.  Fortunately I figured it out in time and stopped the potassium and the symptoms went away over the next few days as my potassium levels dropped.  So PLEASE, don't treat supplements lightly.  Read, read, read.  Know what you are taking and what the potential side effects and interactions are.  If you are uncertain get professional advice from a doc or a pharmacist.  Naturopaths are good sources of info on supplements because that is where their training is.

[UrsusMinor]

Yep, potassium is a kick-ass antihypertensive!

Which is why the FDA generally only allows supplements of maximum 99 mg potassium per tablet. Compare that to the Dietary Reference Intake of 4,700 mg. In other words, if you wanted to get all of your potassium from supplements, you'd need to choke down about 47 tablets.  

And, as George mentions, many antihypertensive medicines slow the body's excretion of potassium.

The medical establishment's solution to this is to make sure that there is no extra potassium intake, and to test blood levels to avoid hyperkalemia (high potassium).

Of course, the other solution, as many naturopaths will point out, is to throw away the antihypertensive drugs and increase the use of potassium and other gentle antihypertensives.

------------

I might add that at one point I was developing hypertension, and my doctor's mindless recommendation--without inquiring about my diet or activity levels--was to cut as much salt out of my diet as possible. Since I eat vegetarian, and mostly whole foods, and engaged in exercise like Bikram (hot)yoga, where you lose a ton of sweat every day, the result was hyponatremia--blood levels of sodium too low.

I woke up with my wife shaking me one morning because I had gone into convulsions (and pissed the bed). I'm lucky I didn't die--lots of endurance athletes die from low sodium every year.  

There were no drugs or supplements involved. Just the medical establishment's brainless belief that EVERYBODY can benefit from cutting back on salt!

[George999]

And, as George mentions, many antihypertensive medicines slow the body's excretion of potassium.

And, an increasing number of supplements have the same effect of "sparing" potassium.

As for salt, I agree.  Like fat, salt has long been a whipping boy for the medical establishment.  While it does pose risks, especially refined salt, they are not nearly as dangerous as the medical establishment makes them out to be.  Potassium and sodium AND chloride are all essential nutrients and potassium and sodium need to always be in balance.  AND potassium is not only an anti-hypertensive, it is a HEALING anti-hypertensive.  That is, it goes beyond just lowering blood pressure.  It also helps to heal the damage that causes hypertension in the first place.  That is the great thing about some supplements as opposed to most pharmaceuticals.  At some point in the future I will start taking it again, just not as much as I was taking before (which was over 2,000mg, LOL).  While the FDA controls potassium supplements, they can not control commonly available potassium containing substances like potassium salts and potassium bicarbonate which was what I was using.  (Bicarbonate itself is a VERY healthy substance since it is very kidney protective).  So there are ways of getting large amounts of supplemental potassium in spite of FDA regs and one has to carefully monitor serum potassium levels and be very aware of the potential side effects when doing so.

[UrsusMinor]

Yep, I have a bag of potassium bicarb myself. I believe it is technically sold as a 'brewing supply'    

[melting]

I concur that salt is very beneficial and very important. Its needed for the cells to function.

Now when it comes to the heavily refined table salt it is problematic. It hasnt the full amount of trace minerals etc. The body has to work to absorb it.

There are many alternatives like see salt, rock salt or hymalayin salt or whatever you can find that is natural. What I found is that mixing them is the ebst bet you can have.

Also they are great to use ina feet bath or full bath. the body absorbs the trace minerals. For Peyronies Disease it wont hurt to get yoru willy soaked once a week at least in high quality salt. (maybe add some magnesium too as it is also absorbed through the skin)

[UrsusMinor]

I'm all in favor of hot epsom salt baths. Not sure if they are effecting the disease, but they sure make me feel better.

But I fear I am wandering off-topic here...