Is there a way to restore collagen and elastin?

[TooYoungForThis]

I was researching penile anatomy and peyonries because I am determined to find a cure for this.

I read that the shell of the penile tissue where the fibrosis is is made up of 5% elastin and the rest is mostly collagen. There are some sources on the internet that say it's possible to restore both of those things, but I am not sure.


On the Peyronie's wikipedia page it states in the first paragraph that the plaque grows in the Tunica Albuginea, which is a thich sheath that surrounds the Corpus Cavernosum. If this is true, does that mean it might be possible to restore damaged tissue by somehow intaking collagen and elastin restoring things like vitamin C etc? Anything orally or topically?

My peyronies infliction is in the base of my penis, which has resulted in massive girth loss (only at the base), but the rest of the penis is fine with no bend, and I can actually receive a full erection (but it's very difficult and usually requires pentox assistance + ved treatment)


I am also only 21, so being young does that mean I might have a greater chance in attempting to reinforce collagen and elastin? More exercise and high vitamin diets for sure, but does anyone else have any ideas or experiences? I'm sure I'm not the only one that has looked into this, for sure.


Just trying to help and throw out ideas.

[Hawk]

It is not nearly so simple or straight forward as you suggest.  First off, it is true that the vast majority of the body is collagen (hair, bone, cartilage).  There are somewhere around a dozen types of collagen.  Some being stiff and inflexible so "restoring collagen"  is not necessarily a help and could even be a detriment if you could trigger it.  In fact scar tissue is also collagen.

[George999]

I agree pretty much with Hawk on this.  Collagen and Elastin are just building blocks.  The problem in Peyronie's is not with the building blocks, but with the metabolic processes that assemble those building blocks.  It is deviant dynamic processes that are askew, not the underlying materials.  - George

[TooYoungForThis]

I just need to understand more of the nature but I am really bad at finding good cases I guess. Have there ever been cases where there was severe plaque blockage that was freed? I am not sure that if the plaque is free the tissue will still be there. Has the tissue truly been destroyed?


I know how I got peyronies, it was by using excess force on the base of my penis to masturbate between my middle and index finger. I did this for about 4-6 years and had minor signs. The saddest part is that the first day I noticed there was a weird narrowing at the base, I still continued to masturbate that way for some time. I have caused severe damage, but somehow MIRACULOUSLY I can still achieve a full erection, BUT the base of my penis is still narrowed and hangs lower than it did. I was a good seven inches before that pointed up, but now I usually only get 80% erections at max and sometimes reach 6-6 1/2 length wise. My girth has suffered at lot at the base, but I think that if I have retained the girth at the top that I will be fine. When I do get full hard ons (which I attribute to the pentox and ved therapy), I fan actually reach seven inches I think. I lost my ruler and can't find the motivation to go outside and get one but it does appear to somewhat be its original size when fully hard.


Anyhoo, I have heard Xiaflex or something or other mentioned on this site and how it supposedly breaks up collagen. Do you think after the plaque has been destroyed supplemental doses of elastin and collagen would help? My main concern is still whether the tissue would even be there.

THere has to be a way to fix this without surgery, why would the body repair itself in such a crude way? Why does the collagen restore things in such an unefficient way?

Sorry I'm just having a difficult time coping.

[George999]

AGAIN,  the problem is NOT the CONTENT of the tissue, but the process.  And plaque does NOT equate to collagen.  Plaque simply represents acute inflammation that manifests itself in hard swollen tissue.  That is the "plaque" that you are "feeling".  Inflamed tissue can also contract to some degree as well.  As the inflammation continues in time, the nature of the tissue changes.  It loses elastin and the its collagen content changes from "healthy" collagen to "degenerated" collagen.  All Xiaflex really does is attempt to "clean up" as much of this "degenerated" collagen as it can using the same type of enzyme that a healthy body would produce to do the same job.  In the case of Xiaflex, a LOT of this enzyme is used in hopes that it can get rid of the "bad" collagen and in hopes that the body can replace that with "good" collagen.  This, of course is a very simplistic explanation, but if  you can follow it, it will get you closer to what is actually happening.  The process is not all that different from when a person gets a traumatic injury to their hand or face and instead of healing, the result is disfigurement.  Which direction it goes depends on a person's capability to heal.  In fact many guys have EXTREMELY traumatic injuries to their penises and NEVER have any long term problem, because their penises simply heal up and become very much like they were beforehand.  Thus Peyronie's is NOT the result of injury, but the result of injury PLUS a failed healing process.  And THAT is why it is SO DIFFICULT to treat.  Although Xiaflex seems to be working well, it is NOT a "magic bullet" and we are still a long way from finding a "magic bullet" at this point.  The main proven treatments you will find on this forum ALL target inflammation in some way, be it pharmacologically or mechanically.  Most of them either alter immune response (inflammation is by definition an inappropriate immune response) or blood flow (insufficient blood flow promotes inflammation) or both in order to quiet that inflammatory fires that progressively damage penile tissue.  Even Xylaflex works by getting rid of (dissolving) "bad" collagen (which is a breeding ground for inflammation), so it too is based on the same anti-inflammatory strategy.  And the same is true of surgery, which is why one loses length and sometimes girth with surgery.  Surgery removes inflamed degenerated tissue, leaving behind "clean" tissue that can more easily heal.  Your best opportunity at this point  is to actively target inflammation and stop worrying about things like collagen and elastin.  - George

[goodluck]

George,

Thanks for taking the time to give this thoughtful response.  It was one of the better explanations I have read.

Goodluck.

[james1947]

George

Seriously, you should write a book, not just Peyronies related.
Your knowledge is huge and if you will concentrate it in a book it will be a best seller.
Your answer reminds me that I had many injuries in my life, including to my penis and the healing was always fast and complete.
After Peyronies stuck four years ago I experienced also slow and not complete healing with other injuries.
Like two years ago falling with my motorbike had a lot of skin damages from my had to my feet fingers (no helmet, short pans, T shirt, sandals) and the injuries healed very slowly, the skin remained very thin, sensitive and discolored.

James

[skunkworks]

Do we have a thread just dedicated to inflammation yet?

[james1947]

Have a few threads dedicted to inflammations and many posts in other treads. Some examples bellow:
Inflammation throughout the body - Peyronies Society Forums
Discovery on how body controls inflammation and wound healing - Peyronies Society Forums
Ejaculation and Inflammation - Peyronies Society Forums
Smith et al. 2011, Pentox treatment and penile calcifications in men - Peyronies Society Forums
I Can combine them if forum members think it will help.

James

[stopthismadness]

TooYoungForThis, in the near future I do believe that they will be able to do just that, turn scar tissue into elastin, or anything else tissue-wise that might be needed in place of it. Science is making great strides every year, and I have my eye on regenerative science. It is still going to be quite a while away for any human use, but I believe it will come to fruition eventually. I still maintain that it is a huge ray of hope for this terrible condition as well as so many others, and it keeps me going just knowing that there are scientists out there actually conducting this remarkable work and getting really amazing results. Scar tissue is the body's crude way to fix things fast in the human body(once outside the womb at least)  " Journal of Investigative Dermatology - Understanding Scarring: Scarless Fetal Wound Healing as a Model " , but it more than often leaves many more problems in it's wake. This is recognized, and thus why many scientists are eager to find ways to change this crude way of healing.  While scientists may not be targeting Peyronie's itself in any of these experiments or studies just yet, Peyronie's IS a problem of scar tissue and fibrosis due to abnormal healing, there is no doubt about that. This article just a few months ago shows that scientists were able to coax scar tissue within a heart to become cardiac muscle WITHOUT stem cells inside a living mouse, just using microRNA's. "http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120426174110.htm" .  That is an amazing feat, and definitely bypasses all the stem cell controversy.  While a heart is a different organ, scar tissue is scar tissue no matter where it is.  I speculate that there will be two methods to attack this condition in the future; either by altering the underlying abnormal wound healing process once it is understood more thoroughly (perhaps through gene therapy) "Whole genome and global expression profiling of Dupuytren's disease: systematic review of current findings and future perspectives -- Shih et al. 71 (9): 1440 -- Annals of the Rheumatic Diseases  ,  "http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15302515", or the approach of replacing the already damaged tissue with new working tissue through regenerative techniques. Or a combination of both. So yes, I believe that there will be a way to restore elastin EVENTUALLY. Don't give up hope, and for now be proactive in other ways. There is excellent advice to gain from reading posts on this forum. Getting nutrient rich blood in the penis regularly to keep the damaged tissue as healthy as it can be and keeping inflammation from getting out of hand seems to be the most proactive way to go about things. Exercise, l-arginine, phosphodiesterase inhibitors (pentoxifylline, cialis, etc.), and the VED are all ways to do this that have helped many members, myself included.

[james1947]

stopthismadness

You have invested time to search and give us this information, thanks for that.
It gives hope indeed.
I just hope things will go more fast forward that I may catch the bus also (65 year old yesterday)

James