Propolis/Propoleo

[mark501]

The Cuban studies used red propolis from Cuban sources. The U.S. embargo on Cuban products prevents its importation at this time however this could change when Fidel is gone. In Brazil they produce both the green & red varieties of propolis. I heard last year that the red variety has been produced only in small quantities so far in Brazil & that an American importer has not been signed up yet. It may be that the Cuban & Brazilian red variety have a different chemical analysis.  I personally tried the green propolis from Brazil last year but had to discontinue it because it gave me a rash on my forehead.  

[Hawk]

I have always viewed propolis as a Cuban attempt to find something / anything to sell to assist the devastated economy of a very backward, under developed country.  Coupled with its huge honey bee industry I view their research on a product they produce with the same skepticism as I do companies pushing their own cure.

I need some real objective evidence that supports any of these claims.

[myrddin]

The wide variety of Propolis types used in the studies quoted previously, excluding the Cuban studies (I didn't quote them), indicate the same activity no matter what "kind" of propolis. Some used Brazilian green, others used just "honeybee" propolis, but their effects were the same: anti-inflammatory properties, and iNOS and NF-kappaB suppression.

The point is, even if you disregard the Cuban studies, which we probably should, there's apparently still ample evidence showing beneficial use for someone with Peyronie's.  If you look at the medical reports, its effects are almost identical to Quercetin.

I haven't used Propolis since I started on Pentox a few months ago, but I've also seen a worsening of my condition since then. Coincidence, possibly.  But what if it's not?

[ppain]

A medical team in Cuba published 4 articles on successful treatment of Peyronie's with what they call Propóleo.  This might be the same stuff readily available in Mexico etc. made from bee hive lining, or it might be a patented derivative available only in Cuba.    

Lemourt et al. 1998
[abstract at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9586317]

Lemourt et al. 2003#1
[abstract at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14595885]

Lemourt et al. 2003#2
[abstract at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14595886]

Lemourt et al. 2005
[abstract at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16430041]
[full Spanish text at http://scielo.isciii.es/pdf/urol/v58n9/931andrologia2.pdf]

All these articles were published in Archivos Españoles de Urología, a respectable Spanish journal.

Maybe propoleum tastes good too.

[rd]

Has anyone ever tried this? I haven't heard of it before.

[ppain]

Hauck et al. (2006):"A Critical Analysis of Nonsurgical Treatment of Peyronie's Disease" said this:

Studies on the effect of propoleum have been
published three times by the same group of authors.
Unfortunately, no data are provided concerning
its chemical compound and the hypothetical
mode of action. This substance is patented in
Cuba and availability is restricted to this country. A
significant effect on the symptoms of pain, diminution
of curvature, and plaque size has been
described in a prospective, placebo-controlled,
double-blind trial. The authors did not observe
any changes in the placebo group, which is
remarkable considering the natural history of
Peyronie's disease. Currently this substance is
not relevant for the treatment of Peyronie's disease
because propoleum is not available outside Cuba. An
international multicentre study should be performed
to evaluate this substance.

Someone fluent in Spanish could contact the lead author Manuel Lemourt Oliva whose email is included in the Spanish version of the 2005 paper.

[chefcasey]

just googling it, it's called propolis in english, and can be bought at many health food stores and relatively cheap.  One of the studies says it was administered in powdered form so it must have been oral.  The only thing is it does not say the dosage.  I'm always a little skeptical of obscure studies from third world countries, especially if you can't dissect the data.  I agree it's also strange the placebo group showed no change.  Perhaps it was studied for it's increased wound healing properties.  I tried webmd and this seems to be a good overview:

http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-390-PROPOLIS.aspx?activeIngredientId=390&activeIngredientName=PROPOLIS

[ppain]

The only thing is it does not say the dosage. I'm always a little skeptical of obscure studies from third world countries, especially if you can't dissect the data.

The 2005 paper, for which we have the text, says: "El Propóleo utilizado fue en polvo capsulado en dosis 900 mgs. en ayunas diariamente."
Why call the study obscure?  Because it is in Spanish?
Medically speaking, Cuba is not a third world country.

Quit your prejudices or your penis will fall off.

[chefcasey]

The only thing is it does not say the dosage. I'm always a little skeptical of obscure studies from third world countries, especially if you can't dissect the data.

The 2005 paper, for which we have the text, says: "El Propóleo utilizado fue en polvo capsulado en dosis 900 mgs. en ayunas diariamente."
Why call the study obscure?  Because it is in Spanish?
Medically speaking, Cuba is not a third world country.

Quit your prejudices or your penis will fall off.

Whoa don't get so sensitive dude, and no need to attack me. They are obscure because they're not really referenced by any real experts on the disease(levine, lue, mulhall etc) specifically because of small sample sizes without good measurable data that we can analyze. Also, this stuff has been brought up years ago on the forum. Search "propolis" on the forum, I think you'll be less than enthused.  

[ppain]

They are obscure because they're not really referenced by any real experts on the disease(levine, lue, mulhall etc) specifically because of small sample sizes without good measurable data that we can analyze.

Your examples of "real experts" -- Levine (in Chicago), Lue (in San Francisco), Mulhall (in New York) -- are kind of restricted. Two posts ago I included a whole paragraph from Hauck et al. (2006): "A Critical Analysis of Nonsurgical Treatment of Peyronie's Disease" in which they "really referenced" three of the Cuban articles.  Hauck's coauthors included Wolfgang Weidner, whom my urologist calls an expert.  This is in Germany.   Doesn't count?

The sample size in Lemourt et al. 2005 was 28.
The sample size in Lemourt et al. 2003#2 was 34.
The sample size in Lemourt et al. 2003#1 was 25.
The sample size in Lemourt et al. 1998 was 34.

Yes these are a little small, but when looking for efficacy, not for e.g., rare dangerous side effects, N=25 isn't so bad.  The statistical uncertainties with N=100 aren't so much less.

No published medical study includes full raw data for analysis.  Lemourt et al. 2005 includes some some measurement data you can analyze.  I haven't seen the other three studies -- 2003#1 is the longest of the four -- just the abstracts.  Have you?

As well as sharing personal experiences in this forum, we need to share interpretations of the scientific literature without prejudice.

[George999]

Propolis has been discussed on this forum before:

Tim468:
Googling propolis may miss some of the data out there since the Cuban studies were done using "propoleum" - which is the same thing (which I finally figured out using wikipedia). It makes sense to use it for Peyronies disease, as does taking Baikal Skullcap etc - all of these herbal remedies that have been studied in Peyronies formally and published in the peer reviewed literature. ...

mark501:
The Cuban studies used red propolis from Cuban sources. The U.S. embargo on Cuban products prevents its importation at this time however this could change when Fidel is gone. In Brazil they produce both the green & red varieties of propolis. I heard last year that the red variety has been produced only in small quantities so far in Brazil & that an American importer has not been signed up yet. It may be that the Cuban & Brazilian red variety have a different chemical analysis.  I personally tried the green propolis from Brazil last year but had to discontinue it because it gave me a rash on my forehead.

Hawk:
I have always viewed propolis as a Cuban attempt to find something / anything to sell to assist the devastated economy of a very backward, under developed country.  Coupled with its huge honey bee industry I view their research on a product they produce with the same skepticism as I do companies pushing their own cure.
I need some real objective evidence that supports any of these claims.

myrddin:
The wide variety of Propolis types used in the studies quoted previously, excluding the Cuban studies (I didn't quote them), indicate the same activity no matter what "kind" of propolis. Some used Brazilian green, others used just "honeybee" propolis, but their effects were the same: anti-inflammatory properties, and iNOS and NF-kappaB suppression.
The point is, even if you disregard the Cuban studies, which we probably should, there's apparently still ample evidence showing beneficial use for someone with Peyronie's.  If you look at the medical reports, its effects are almost identical to Quercetin.
I haven't used Propolis since I started on Pentox a few months ago, but I've also seen a worsening of my condition since then. Coincidence, possibly.  But what if it's not?

myrddin:
... Regarding the immune suppression, you could take (stay with me here, I'm not just grasping) Bee Propolis.  Extensive reading about it on Pubmed reveals various studies showing it has Anti-Biotic, Anti-Viral, and Anti-Inflammatory properties, and also inhibits NO expression through the iNOS pathway (i.e. the "bad" way).
Granted, there are also the two or so Cuban studies that have always been regarded as questionable, showing Propolis directly helps Peyronie's.
However, even disregarding the Cuban Peyronie's studies, there still seems to be science that shows it may help you not get (as) sick, and may even be helpful to us Peyronie's sufferers because of its Anti-inflammatory effect and iNOS inhibition.  See quote from here:Quote
This extract, which at low concentrations induces anti-inflammatory and analgesic effects in mouse models, presents a high content of flavonoids, known to inhibit inducible NOS (iNOS) activity. These data taken together led us to reinforce the hypothesis in the literature that the anti-inflammatory effect of propolis may be a due to inhibition of iNOS gene expression, through interference with NF-kappaB sites in the iNOS promoter
And here:Quote
These results indicate that EEP [ethanol extract of propolis] exerts its inhibitory effect on the IL-1beta and iNOS gene expression in J774A.1 macrophages at the transcriptional level. Tested flavone derivatives contribute to the anti-inflammatory activity of propolis
And here:Quote
Since nitric oxide (NO) synthesized by inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS) has been known to be involved in inflammatory and autoimmune-mediated tissue destruction, modulation of NO synthesis or action represents a new approach to the treatment of inflammatory and autoimmune diseases. Caffeic acid phenethyl ester (CAPE), an active component of honeybee propolis, has been identified to show anti-inflammatory, anti-viral and anti-cancer activities.  ... These results suggest that CAPE may exert its anti-inflammatory effect by inhibiting the iNOS gene expression at the transcriptional level through the suppression of NF-kappaB activation, and by directly inhibiting the catalytic activity of iNOS.
Anyone with knowledge in this area, feel free to correct my reasoning.  There are many who are more knowledgeable than I in this area.

tommarkey:
... And now, for all.... What i do with my propolis (propoleum)? Stop and starts these others or continue with these others?

j:
Yes there are a number of studies that show that Peyronie's can be cured - if you're willing to relocate. ... In Cuba, propolis does the trick. And so on.   For some mysterious reason, none of those things will work here in the U.S.  

j:
This came and went on the BSTC forum sometime last year. A bunch of posters bought the stuff and tried it. As far as I know it did nothing.
These researchers are Cuban. Cuba has a big beekeeping industry and is trying to build it up. As they produce more honey, they end up with more propolis as a by-product. So they're probably trying it on all sorts of things, looking for ways to market it.
From www.wowcuba.com:
"Cuba is increasing honey production to better meet European demand. Cuba collected 7,200 tons of honey during 2003, the largest yield in 12 years. This year Cuba is set to produce more than 700 tons of specific honey from campanula and mangrove plants, highly sought after for the honey's clarity and freshness. Cuba also has the certified potential to sell 1500 tons of organic honey.
     There are 200,000 hives on the island but only 144,300 are currently functioning. Production has been increased in both the horizontal and vertical sense by increasing the number of containers in order to raise the amount of honey stored. A digitized map of Cuba's vegetation allows a more productive placement of the hives. Payment to the over 2500 local growers has also been streamlined to better reflect the quality and time to harvest. Honey is also being more widely used in domestic creams and nutritional products."

j:
Or maybe we should hop a flight to Cuba, where they can cure you with bee propolis...

alain_br:
I have recently been diagnosed with peyronies and after taking oral medication (presently on ACL, Vit E and propolis) seem to be feeling a tickling/tingling sensation where previously I felt some pain. Has anyone else experienced this ? I am hoping that this should lead to some improvement, but do not want to delude myself.

ofsho:
... Am considering vitamins A,E,D,omega3 and ALC, arginine,lipoic acid, coq10 even propolis I read that none of these are drugs.

myrddin:
...  I've ceased taking Propolis for now. ...

dcaptain:
Hey guys, here's one for you.  I found the following article on the PubMed site:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16430041&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum
Did a little digging and found that these Urologists have done four studies on the use of "propoleum" for Peyronies Disease.  However, I have no idea what propoleum is, and haven't been able to find it online.  The article abstracts are in Spanish, translated to English, so I'm going with what the abstract says.
Anyone know of this propoleum?

Hawk:
... It seems that it is bee propolis (the glue honey bees produce/process from plants).  Maybe it is a Spanish variation of the word.  I used to have a few bee hives.  Where are they when I need them?

This is just a small fraction of the posts discussing propolis back around the time the Cuban study initially surfaced.  A number of guys here tried it and there were no success accounts that I recall.

- George

[ppain]

mark501 had reported that the Cuban studies used red propolis from Cuban sources.  This recent study indicates that Cuban red propolis and Brazilian red propolis are chemically alike. No one reporting in the forum had tried either of these.    

[George999]

Well myrddin DID indicate he thought he might have been getting some benefit.  Please keep in mind the few posts that I pulled out are NOT exhaustive.  There is a lot more where that came from.  Since they are shotgunned all over the forum, they are hard to isolate.  Perhaps it IS time to revisit this topic.  If anyone out there wants to give it a try, we might be able to learn something we didn't know before.  I'm all for that.  - George

[Angus]

Quit your prejudices or your penis will fall off.

  We do not threaten or make comments like that on this forum. Clean up the language.
Discuss this in a civil manner. One warning, and this is it.  

[ppain]

Perhaps it IS time to revisit this topic.

I'm surprised that even highly rational myrddin was inclined to dismiss the Cuban studies.  He writes: "the two or so Cuban studies that have always been regarded as questionable" and "even if you disregard the Cuban studies, which we probably should".  Was there detailed discussion of the Cuban studies here in 2005-2006, perhaps with English translations of the texts?  Or did some expert slam them?  Or did prejudice figure in their dismissal?  

Hauck et al. 2006 primarily faults the Cuban studies for failing to find improvement in the placebo group.  But you and I recently recognized in another strand how the methodological design can shift the placebo group's results upward, so the design can as well shift them downward.  To give a simple example, for results sorted into "improved", "same", "worse", the measurement scale used, and the boundary lines assumed, change the reported efficacy of medication vs. placebo.

"Archivos Españoles de Urología" where all four Cuban papers appeared, has been published since 1944.  The out of hand dismissals which seem to be based on culture or politics -- see one of Hawk's among your samples -- give me concern about the general rationality and reliability within the forum.  This is not a forum of medical experts, but of strongly motivated amateurs.  Many of us operate under the principle of not having the luxury of "trial and error" that medical experts have.  Those amateurs, to which I belong, try to learn as much as they can as fast as they can in order to take their shot at self-treatment.  To those, any irrationality or unreliability within the forum is harmful.  To the others, to which you belong, there is less sensed urgency and perhaps more tolerance.  

I confess a prejudice against natural and folk remedies and would normally have dismissed propolis as healthfood store hokum.  Three facts caused me to start this strand.  First, I searched the forum incorrectly finding no mention of it.  Second, the four Cuban papers were published in a respectable medical journal.  Third, Hauck et al. 2006 said (apparently incorrectly) that the medicine was unavailable outside Cuba.  So this treatment could be a "sleeper".  It was worth investigating precisely because Cuba is off-the-map.  (I once saw a map of Florida including some sea around it, and the place where part of Cuba should have been was airbrushed blue.)

[George999]

ppain,  Those of us who post here ARE people.  We confess to having our prejudices and shortcomings.  But what you WILL see here is that in the long run we manage to overcome them.  You can see that illustrated with the Iranian Pentox study.  Some around here dismissed it because it was Iranian.  One of my own physicians dismissed it because it was Iranian.  It happens.  But eventually most of the guys here found it to be useful.  If propolus indeed turns out to be found useful, you will not likely be hearing more complaints about it being a "Cuban" study.  And in spite of what ever complaints might occur, it is better to respond nicely.  Guys who are prone to get into "cat fights" on this forum are banned from posting any more as they rightly should be.  So my advice is to be nice and you will not only make friends but also more importantly win people over to your concept to such a degree that it will get a fair hearing.  This whole thing about propolus WAS discussed before at length, but perhaps we missed something.  In that case there are ALWAYS newer guys around here for whom nothing is seeming to work that would be more than willing to give propolis another shot.  You are a REALLY sharp guy.  We need guys with your insights and motivation around here.  But you have to try your best to be civil when you advocate what you see as promising concepts.  If you insist on arrogance, even your most brilliant ideas will be dismissed out of hand because arrogance is not tolerated around here.  That is the bottom line.  You have a LOT to offer.  Do it nicely and you will be valued.  Thanks - George

[Old Man]

ppain:

I agree with George999 and Angus 100% about your unorthodox approach to what you say on this forum. It is here for the benefit of all and not just one person. So, you have been placed on warning about your efforts or whatever you want to call them about propolis. The subject has been addressed before as shown by the posts below.

We are not prejudiced about Cuba, but you have to understand where most of us Americans are coming from with regard to that country. Our history goes way back many years to what was called the Cuban Crisis about Russian missiles just 90 miles from our borders. We did not take kindly to that country posing a threat to our nation with that effort.

We need intelligent guys like yourself on the forum to promote better and more easily used treatments/therapies for this dreadfull and devastating disease/disorder. Some of us have been in this Peyronies Disease business for decades and have extensive knowledge it.

Try to clean up your posts with a better approach to the subject matter and you will be better received with them.

Old Man

[ppain]

[Angus]

  This thread can proceed without nationalistic comments if members wish to discuss the original topic further. This is a Peyronies Disease forum, not a political trash can or bill board. Political debate or anything way off topic will not be tolerated, period.  

[betseyagopian]

Hey guys, Am I the only one in this board taking Propolis? I tried to find somebody else taking Propolis in this board and I only found this thread.

By the way, Im takin 1000mg and I bought it online. The pills are imported from the States. I've been taking Propolis for less than a month. I'm also taking Pentox. My Urologist said that it was OK to take both when I asked him if Propolis may get in the way of Pentox or viceversa.

[funnyfarm]

I took a one here in the US from a local organic bee farm.  It did nothing, but dont let that discourage you.   We are all different.  

[betseyagopian]

I took a one here in the US from a local organic bee farm.  It did nothing, but dont let that discourage you.   We are all different.

Hey man! For how long did you take propolis?  

[funnyfarm]

Only about 6wks and for prostatitis, not Peyronies Disease.   I just noticed I have some left in the fridge, I will start taking it again !  

[lgrace]

ppain:



We are not prejudiced about Cuba, but you have to understand where most of us Americans are coming from with regard to that country. Our history goes way back many years to what was called the Cuban Crisis about Russian missiles just 90 miles from our borders. We did not take kindly to that country posing a threat to our nation with that effort.

I am sad to see that lately a few debates have been somewhat contaminated by nationalistic arguments that have no place on the forum, in my opinion.

I don't recall the United States having particularly good relations to Iran (i. e. hostage crisis) but it doesn't keep us from referring to an Iranian study for one of the main oral treatments for Peyronies Disease.

We are all entitled to our prejudices but perhaps we should keep them for ourselves or at least voice them with more caution and respect. I am personally far more concerned with pharmaceutical companies manipulating studies in order to make millions by selling their product than by the hypothetical threat of Cuban doctors leading us to believe that a natural product like propolis could help us with our condition.

Keep in mind that even the most respected specialists in the world could have a motive to present the results of their studies in a - how to put it - excessively favorable light. You would be amazed to what lengths people can go to promote their careers, their reputations or simply their ego.

For me, the Spanish journal of urology is as official as it gets.

The treatments I have tried have proved ineffective so I am not quick to dismiss any new lead that could bring some - even minor - improvement. In this respect, ppain's posts and expertise have been very helpful and I hope this discussion doesn't discourage him to keep posting on the forum.

Cheers to all

[james1947]

Igrace

I agree with you on what you are writing in your post.
From the other side, I see ppain was not on line from January 2012.
Maybe he is too sensitive and don't got to the bottom that political issues can be discussed (to a certain limit) on the "Of topic board".
When administrators and moderators change/delete content of a post is to make to forum more readable and understandable, not to offend people.

By the way, you don't have flag beside your name. Can you add your country flag? I am proud of mine.
James

[Crooked_Stick]

Sunshine hormone, vitamin D, may offer hope for treating liver fibrosis

Nice info on vitamin D analog, stops fibrosis in its tracks......maybe?