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Author Topic: ED - Erectile Dysfunction (Started August 2005)  (Read 243592 times)

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Liam

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Re: Wellbutrin
« Reply #250 on: August 25, 2007, 04:23:11 PM »

It is good for depression and does not intefere with sexual function  ;)

C'est bon!
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Tim468

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Re: Erectile Dysfunction
« Reply #251 on: August 25, 2007, 05:55:44 PM »

Antony,

You should consider - strongly - taking pentox at a dose of 400 three times a day, L-arginine at a dose of 2000-6000 mg a day, and viagra or similar at a dose of 25-50 a day (again this is not for erection but for antifibrotic activity). You should get going with a VED. Consider a better evaluation with measurement of testosterone levels, and you should definitely get injected to see if your penis can get hard AT ALL (in other words, regardless of your feelings and emotions).

According to the limited  data available for men in similar positions as you, it has taken up to two years to recover - but that is if they do the therapy.

Finally, as I mentioned before, there are surgical reconstructions available for young men whose penis - for whatever reason - has failed. Right now, that may seem impossible or unacceptable. But if all else failed me, I would go for that in a heartbeat. But only after all else had failed.

So, you say that you will "ask about" pentox, but I suggest that you READ about it using the articles that I posted for you over two weeks ago. I am sorry to sound so blunt - for I have great feelings of empathy and sorrow for what you have suffered. But I have also suffered, as have many men here who can no longer have intercourse either. You are not alone. Instead of listing how many ways in which you are different (and therefore "worse") I hope you can start to see how you are not so isolated or alone. You are not the only guy whose life is altered in a way that is depressing and frustrating. Yet you will see, along with the depression, signs of hope and optimism here as well - and that is not because they "don't have it as bad as you". It is due to doing the work of recovery that we must all do to heal our hearts. And if you listen long enough you will also hear the words of the women who love men despite their failure to have a perfect penis any more.

You can heal either medically or surgically - that is a fact - though it may entail spending time and money and feeling sad. But for now, it may be of more help to get going on the "recovery" part of what you are facing.

Tim

Some responses to this post were moved to the "Psychological Component" topic.  Click the link below to go to those posts.
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Hitman

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Re: Erectile Dysfunction
« Reply #252 on: August 25, 2007, 06:39:08 PM »

hello everybody

I thought I post my story here coz its more ED-related

I'm 5'9-5'10 240lbs (20% bf, not very healthy at all). I suffer from weak erections at the moment and what seems to be a curve on the left side of my penis. -I suspect this is from too much wanking using my right hand-. The curve is around 15-20 degrees. On occasion I will get weak nocturnal erections but no morning erections. I can however induce a strong manual erection for some strange reason.

My Penile sensitivity is poor. My penis looks small and shrunk in the flaccid state. I've visited my GP who has requested some blood and lipid profiles mainly thyroid, prolactin, DHEA-s and testosterene. My triglycerides are quite high. Cholestrol is normal. I suspect I also have adrenal fatigue- but my doctor doesn't believe in it-

Last year I went to a urologist because of pain I was experiencing at the tip of the penis and he did notice I was quite tender in the urethreal region. They found no trace of infections however.The doctor said its some sort of trauma to the area and its inflammed.

any thoughts or comments would be really appreciated.

Hitman
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antony

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Re: To Tim, Liam
« Reply #253 on: August 25, 2007, 07:01:23 PM »

I know you're right Tim, it's just very very hard to live, at that moment of my life, anyway everybody has his own history, but believe me that was not the good moment to have a problem like that. (it's never the good moment, but especially now).

Anyway i spoke to a doctor specialist about fibrosis in france, i will take apointement on monday, he spoke to me about pentox. Will see with the doc.

Concerning viagra, for reasons of price, i cant take it daily, moreover i have some bad side effects.
I take cialis 2 times a week (it is said to be about a 36hours effect). Doenst help me a lot.

I will see one of the most 'famous' urologists/surgeon in france but can't have apointement before end of november, it's not my fault.

I have been made one injection by the doctor, it induces a 'sort of erection', but smaller, painful, with a curvature, and non sensitive.
So my penis can react to an injection even if it's not pleasant ( like something totally non elastic), but it has totally changed of form, size and sensation.

Thanks for advice, and one again don't think i only complain without trying things. I hope to recover medically but not surgically.

The fact is also all that costs a lot of money, and i have lost a lot in 6 months, for absolutely nothing. So i am far from being rich...

I know that i am not alone, and i don't try to compare, but i say it's not possible to  have worse than i have concerning a sexual problem : total impotence with loss of size, of sensitivity, curvature, pain, ejaculation problem, sorry but its very hard to live, i maintain especially when you are young. Its not a comparison, its (sadly for me) a fact, and it's another that doctors here quickly live you alone if they dont know what to do.

No problem for  you to sound 'blunt',you just say what you think and its not a problem, as for me i have just told what i live, that's all.



Liam, what do you say is good on depression and doesn't interfer with sexual function?  qu'est ce qui est bon? lol

Antony
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Liam

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Re: Wellbutrin
« Reply #254 on: August 26, 2007, 06:24:09 AM »

Wellbutrin is the name of the drug.   :)

Vouloir, c'est pouvoir! 
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Liam

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Re: Erectile Dysfunction
« Reply #255 on: August 26, 2007, 06:59:43 AM »

HitMan, 

Have you thought about trying a VED?  You can read about them here:

http://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,439.0.html

This section is a good way to "catch up" on some of the posts quickly (Thanks Angus!)

Another thought is to look at different medical treatment options for weight loss.  I have two friends who have had surgery (gastric bypass, I believe) and are totally different people now.  They say many other health problems they had dissapeared with the extra weight.  One told me her breathing problems improved and she has more energy (she's almost "hyper" now).  I am mentioning this because there have been discussions of Peyronies Disease being related to sugar levels in the body.  Also, it is just for your health.

Good luck!
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Hitman

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Re: Erectile Dysfunction
« Reply #256 on: August 26, 2007, 08:01:34 AM »

hey Liam

thanks for the reply. I will read and look into the VED and discuss it with my doctor should my ED continue further after I've gotten rid of the weight.

as for losing weight, no I will not go down the surgery track. I'm very determined to get rid of it through an exercise and diet regime.

regards
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Liam

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Re: Erectile Dysfunction
« Reply #257 on: August 26, 2007, 09:34:39 AM »

Diet and excersise is great.  George can offer some good advice as far as diet and nutrition.

If your doc will give you a Rx for the VED, your insurance may pay.
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Hitman

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Re: Erectile Dysfunction
« Reply #258 on: August 26, 2007, 09:39:07 AM »

hmm whats an Rx?

(forgot to say that I live in NZ by the way)
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Old Man

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Re: Definition of RX
« Reply #259 on: August 26, 2007, 02:21:07 PM »

Hitman:

Top of the morning to you!

RX = A written prescription for drugs (medicine), medical equipment or anything in the medical field that requires to be prescribed by a board certified and/or licensed physican, etc.

Welcome aboard and keep looking around the threads and topics of the forum. There is a wealth of information about Peyronies Disease, VEDs and other alternative therapies for men's health problems.

Old Man
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Hitman

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Re: Erectile Dysfunction
« Reply #260 on: August 27, 2007, 12:21:32 AM »

ok thanks for the replies guys.

I did want to ask George about what supplements he has found to be useful for ED or Peyronies Disease in general.
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Liam

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Re: Antony
« Reply #261 on: August 27, 2007, 03:40:02 PM »

How are your night time erections?  Have you tried low dose (25mg) Viagra at bedtime?

BTW, I saw a past post you mention seminal fluid leaking after using Viagra.  That part is normal.  It is "lubrication"  ;) 

I think it would be a good idea to use medicines to have frequent erections.  Keep your blood flowing.

Depression can also cause ED (more acurate term).  I think depression is making the physical symptoms worse.  Attack this problem from all sides.  I take Wellbutrin.  There are other drugs.  Also, excersise!
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antony

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Re: To liam, ninja, tim
« Reply #262 on: August 27, 2007, 09:37:23 PM »

Hello all,


Liam, to answer to your question, no i dont have night time erection, no more than morning ones, i lost all of them. I tried one or 2 times viagra before sleeping, but these medicine have some bad side effects, and are too expensive, so cant take too often.
But i've tried to take cialis several time (anyway it doesn't give me good erections coz of the fibrosis), and i have the feeling after a certain time, the body is 'used to it', and the product makes me less and less effect... :-(

Yes i mentioned the seminal fluid. In fact,before my problem, i had seminal fluid like everybody during exitation, but now, as soon as i take something that tries to make me erect, (viagra, cialis), as soon as the penis becomes a little hard, there is a big quantity of this fluid that goes out from the urethra. I don't know why, but it's not really clean. Anyway, that's not the most important point for sure, but it's not cool.

To finish, depression is good for nobody, and can affect libido and erection. But i am in depression since last month really, since i was told by the doctors they can do nothing. But i had this problem of penis since already five months. It's not depression which created my problem for sure, even if of course depression makes everything going worse. But you're right to attack by this side too, and i do it, i am treated for depression. But it changes nothing to the rest of the probem (physical part).


Ninja, for sure people who have 'small problems' and think it's 'the end of the world' make me laugh... But i think we have to have a big problem to realize it. Sometimes, everybody complain about stupid things, nothing serious. But the day when it happens a serious thing...  Anyway, speak to you in PM.


Tim, it's no problem to say what you think, you gave me medical advice, and that was what i asked for, so it's cool. For the moral thing, nobody who becomes totally impotent so young can realize how hard to live it is. Anyway that's not the matter, i asked if there were medical things for impotence/fibrosis, etc, you told me about pentox, daily viagra, anti depressor, etc, so it's cool if it can help, for the rest just believe it's very very very hard to live, especially in my situation, but it's no way to speak about that, i cant explain all in english, and moreover it's not a psychological forum. Just as i told, i try to do the things, and don't just 'complain'. But i think you would be out of hope and force living my last 6 months...(i dont have a peyronie as for me).
So  thank you for advice and help, and for the rest, nobody can help or judge.

Thanks everybody

Antony

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Hitman

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Re: Erectile Dysfunction
« Reply #263 on: August 28, 2007, 07:08:05 AM »

just out of curiousity would a lack of nocturnal or morning erections indicate a hormonal or neurological problem?
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Hawk

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Re:Hitman - Loss of Night-time Erections
« Reply #264 on: August 28, 2007, 08:11:22 AM »

Hitman,

The cause of the loss of night-time erections could be for the reasons you mentioned or other physical  issues ranging from impaired arterial flow, venous leakage, and possibly other physical issues not occurring to me at the moment.

I personally think psychological issues can impact night-time erections.  I have never awaken with an erection on a night I was wrestling with a traumatic issue.   

Do you ever get an erection day or night?
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Hawk

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Moved Posts
« Reply #265 on: August 28, 2007, 08:15:51 AM »

I moved several posts by Tim, Ninja, myself, and other from this ED thread to the "Psychological Component" topic since they had much more to do with that aspect.  Moving the posts, making quotes, and the redirect links was not real fun (sorry for the whining) .  Most of them made no direct mention of ED.  You can go to these posts by clicking the link below.

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Liam

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Re: 25 mg Viagra
« Reply #266 on: August 28, 2007, 07:21:29 PM »

Try 25 mg Viagra at bedtime every night if you can.  It helps with night itme erections.  It is a very low dosage and easily tolerated.  I have severe headaches with the three major ED drugs.  I can handle this.  I hope you can, too.

Liam
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Hitman

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Re:Hitman - Loss of Night-time Erections
« Reply #267 on: August 28, 2007, 07:31:12 PM »

Hitman,

The cause of the loss of night-time erections could be for the reasons you mentioned or other physical  issues ranging from impaired arterial flow, venous leakage, and possibly other physical issues not occurring to me at the moment.

I personally think psychological issues can impact night-time erections.  I have never awaken with an erection on a night I was wrestling with a traumatic issue.   

Do you ever get an erection day or night?

I used to at some stage. now I don't get any day erections whatsoever. On occasion i will get semi-spontaneous nightly erections. thats about it. I suspect I have a hormonal problem + probably impaired arterial flow because of my excess bodyweight. however there might be a third problem. I've been experiencing some sensation of heat in my inner thighs and around my anal area as well.
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Kimo

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Re: Erectile Dysfunction
« Reply #268 on: August 28, 2007, 11:19:56 PM »

Hitman,,,Low testosterone will affect your ability to have day or nightime erections and so will stress. I've been through it all,,when i get my stress level down i begin to have night time erections again,,not a lot,,but at least i get them..

Liam is right about taking 25 mg of viagra,,i would suggest taking about an hour before bedtime and then eat something light about 20 minutes after taking it, and maybe a Tylenol,,,,this will help avoid getting the headache...

LIAM,,,,I've been using the viagra now for about 10yrs,,100 mg,,,for the first 2 to 3 yrs i had the bad headache's , after that i haven't had any side effects....Now that i am 62 yrs, i am trying to cut back to about 50 mg, I've noticed since my lower intestines was damaged 2 yrs ago by a parasite, lately when i take a 100 mg it just makes my insides hurt some and it's not comfortable afterwards, so i'm making myself cut back,,,otherwise i really don't experience any side effects....

Hope this helps,,,,,,,Kimo
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Hitman

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Re: Erectile Dysfunction
« Reply #269 on: August 29, 2007, 09:48:56 PM »

thanks for the reply guys. Viagra I might postpone till after I lose my weight. the reason is because I'm not too sure my doctor will prescribe it for me unless I drop that excess body-fat first. He is centered around the excess BF being the source of all my problems- and I kinda agree with that- and wants to see if my condition improves after I lose my weight. as for stress the only stress is practical work from the chem lab. finding the right solvent system is a bummer and discovering from day-to-day that I'm not very well suited for labwork has kinda blurred my self-confidence. >:(
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antony

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Re: Erectile Dysfunction
« Reply #270 on: August 30, 2007, 02:33:34 PM »

Hello all,

Just a question, do you know (in the usa) ALL the tests /exams, that are done in theses cases of impotence?
(like radiologic test or blood tests, i dont know if there are some in your country that i wasnt told here)?
I did blood test, and RIM (reasonance imagery magnetic, i think it's the word in english).
And eccho doppler.

Thanks.
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Tim468

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Tests to do
« Reply #271 on: August 30, 2007, 05:43:47 PM »

Like I said in the original post, it is a long post, but well worth reading (IMHO).

http://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,23.msg10993.html#msg10993

It is a discussion by a very talented urologist about how he would work up erectile dysfunction. In his discussion (which is about one man), he touches on all of the tests, and their strengths and weaknesses.

Tim
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MUSICMAN

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Re: Erectile Dysfunction
« Reply #272 on: September 05, 2007, 12:19:37 PM »

I'm sure this subject has been covered but some information would be
helpfull. I seem to have nocturnal erections at times. I'm not sure if all
the time or just by the chance I wake up at that time. Yes It is bent
like the end of a golf club but it is a firm erection. My question is why
am I not able to have a awake erection? My guess is that it is a mental
issue as the bend and look removes any idea as to what it could be
used for. My disease has been stable for some time now and I do not
have any pain.
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Re: Testosterone ...
« Reply #273 on: September 14, 2007, 09:22:48 PM »

Those of you that know me around here know that I am always trying something new.  My latest little experiment is Tongkat Ali.  I recently purchased a bottle of Herbal Powers Tongkat Ali, which seems to be the brand blessed by the Malay government.  This stuff supposedly elevates Testosterone naturally and without the harmful side effects of replacement approaches.  So I read the label.  It basically says no more than 8 caps per day maximum.  For "general health" 2 to 4 caps per day.  It also says that I "should see the results in about four days".  So I decide to take 4 per day, one every six hours and see what happens.  They recommend taking it for a few days then taking a break, then repeating the pattern.  So yesterday was my fourth day which passed rather uneventfully.  But then last night, something very interesting occurred.  Out of nowhere, I actually had a "wet dream" for the first time in about 25 years.  I was blown away.  Is this some sort of strange coincidence or does this stuff really work as hyped (a real rarity on the supplement front)?  I'll let you all be the ones to critique my experience.  As for me, I think this is one supplement I am going to continue taking.  I am really curious what possible impact it might have on the Peyronies issue.  - George
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Re: Tongkat....
« Reply #274 on: September 14, 2007, 11:50:47 PM »

George... the stuff looks promising doesn't it? Are you going to take a break from it after the 4 day round? If so, and you do another round, post if you notice in the next round anything like the nocturnal activities that you experienced or anything that suggests it was the Tongkat kicking in. Fascinating.
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Re: Some questions
« Reply #275 on: October 04, 2007, 02:06:34 AM »

Hello all,


i would like to know something, has somebody passed some MRI to diagnose their peyronie, or to confirm it? And is the fibrosis plaque is visible on imagery exams? (MRI, echography?). Because i'm asking myself something, in the peyronie disease, you have a curvature and pain at erection because of fibrosis, but most of cases, it doesn't make you impotent. And i was told in most of cases we can see the fibrosis at exams. And as for me, despite of my terrible and numerous symptoms i had told here ( total impotence, lose of sensitivity, small curvature on right side, torsion at basis of penis, hardness of tunica albuginea, big loss of size of penis, loss of elasticity, ejaculatory trouble since the begining of my problem .... all that following a paintful intercourse some months ago), the MRI's i did (i made 2) show nothing.... and the same for eccho doppler. But the doctor says with these symptoms, there is necessary fibrosis in penile tissues. So are the MRI machines in france crap? How is it possible that a fibrosis which doesn't create impotence , like in peyronie, is visible on MRI, and one which creates impotence and these numerous symptoms, isn't visible?

And i would like to know if you have some information here concerning the genetic cells therapy or something like that, to 'recreate' a 'safe' tunica albuginea , coz i still can't (and will never) imagine to put a penile prothesis.

Thanks
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Liam

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Re: Antony - ED and MRI
« Reply #276 on: October 04, 2007, 05:10:25 AM »

The abstract below just shows some imaging techniques that are used and one unusual finding. 
You said:
Quote
total impotence, lose of sensitivity, small curvature on right side, torsion at basis of penis, hardness of tunica albuginea, big loss of size of penis, loss of elasticity, ejaculatory trouble since the begining of my problem
   
With what you describe, a doctor should be able to pick up on something concrete (no pun intended) instead of some ethereal plaque.  Was your doctor able to see and document all your symptoms?  You may have more than one thing going on.


Try searching Google about regrowing penis tissue.

You said:
Quote
How is it possible that a fibrosis which doesn't create impotence , like in peyronie, is visible on MRI, and one which creates impotence and these numerous symptoms, isn't visible?
Thats a good question for your doctor.


Quote
G. Helweg1   , F. Frauscher1, H. Strasser2, R. Knapp1, W. Judmaier3, D. zur Nedden1 and A. Reissigl2
(1)  Department of Radiology II, University of Innsbruck, Anichstr. 35, A-6020 Innsbruck, Austria
(2)  Department of Urology, University of Innsbruck, Anichstr. 35, A-6020 Innsbruck, Austria
(3)  MRI Institute, University of Innsbruck, Anichstr. 35, A-6020 Innsbruck, Austria

Received: 16 May 1994  Revised: 12 December 1994  Accepted: 10 May 1995 

Abstract   We report the case of a 44-year-old male presenting with deviation of the penis during erection. Upon physical and clinical examination the patient did not have the typical findings of Peyronie's disease, therefore he was admitted for further evaluation by conventional sonography, duplex Doppler ultrasound, endourethral ultrasound and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI). Endourethral ultrasound and MRI provided evidence of Peyronie's disease with atypical involvement of the corpus spongiosum and, in addition, demonstrated nonpalpable plaques in the septum of the penis.
Source: http://www.springerlink.com/content/ukp6614284862302/
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Re: Anthony
« Reply #277 on: October 04, 2007, 03:23:01 PM »

One further point.  MOST men with Peyronies Disease do have reduced hardness with their erections.
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Re: Erectile Dysfunction
« Reply #278 on: October 04, 2007, 10:20:46 PM »

Hello, thanks for answers.

To Hawk, yes, but lots of men with peyronies can have erection, despite of the fibrosis. It can be painful, disformed, or maybe like you say with reduced hardness, but it doesn't make you impotent organically. And as i told im asking why a fibrosis like this is visible on MRI and why my fibrosis, which is probably really worse, is not visible.

To Liam, thanks for precisions.
About the doctor, or the doctors coz i saw a lot coz most of them are not competent, the last i saw says there was a penile injury at origin, but not a fracture. But something had broken inside my penis and the scar tissue created fibrosis. Fibrosis creates symptoms like impotence, reduced size of penis, hardness of tunica albuginea, curvature, loss of elasticity. Then the rest would be a consequence: the loss of sensitivity coz the penis has changed anatomy, so maybe it compresses a nerve, and the ejaculatory trouble, because the area where it's no more right in penis, makes that the ejaculation is stopped at a moment in urethra, and despite of going out strongly, it drips (drop after drop without any force and with no orgasm and sensation). But he says that without being convinced, and coz the MRI shows nothing , he is lost and says we can do anything. Aparently this type of problem is rare. Doctors left me alone...

So i wanted to know if some of you had passed MRI or dopller and the imagery shows this fibrosis. But the link you gives me proves some of them are not so visible. But they say dificult peyronies to see are visible on MRI so (in this case, plaques in the septum of the penis. The MRI i made say the septum is normal...)   Do you know what is a 'endourethral ultrasound'??

About the question, if i ask you, it's precisely coz the doctor says nothing and doesnt know. I was just 'hoping' somebody had same thing and would have known ... My doctor (who is a 'famous' specialist) doenst know and gave me... cialis...

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Pycnogenol and Arginine Study
« Reply #279 on: October 12, 2007, 08:52:24 AM »

I am reposting this link that Amigo made in another topic.   I either have not seen this study posted before or it did not register if I did.  Thanks Amigo!

...there was a small study in 2003 indicating success at treating erectile dysfunction with pycnogenol and arginine.  Here's a link to the abstract... I'm pretty sure it has been posted on here before, but just in case:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&list_uids=12851125&cmd=Retrieve&indexed=google

It isn't clear from the study whether the arginine is necessary or not.  It is pretty clear that the pycnogenol IS.  It's moderately expensive (about $25 a month) but still less than a copay for my insurance covered prescriptions.  If anyone else has found a study that contradicts this one, i'd love to know.  The quoted 80- 92% improvement is pretty impressive.  Any extra bloodflow down there seems to be a good thing.
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antony

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Re: Erectile Dysfunction
« Reply #280 on: October 12, 2007, 09:49:02 AM »

Thanks for the link, sadly the study is said to be on men with an ed 'without organical dysfonction', so, a psychological one, where nothing organic is touched in the penis... Interesting anyway.
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Re: Anthony - Erectile Dysfunction
« Reply #281 on: October 12, 2007, 08:40:20 PM »

...sadly the study is said to be on men with an ed 'without organical dysfonction', so, a psychological one, where nothing organic is touched in the penis... Interesting anyway.
Anthony,

It did NOT say these were men without organic ED.  It said that they did not go through steps to confirm that it was organic ED.  In other words, they assumed this was organic ED rather than psychological issues but did not clinically confirm this.  Surely there is no way 40 men with ED could be picked at random without the majority of them having organic based ED.  Most Ed has a physiological bases and is not solely psychological.
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Re: Erectile Dysfunction
« Reply #282 on: October 12, 2007, 10:43:00 PM »

Ok thanks Hawk, i didn't understand it like that.
Anyway, in my case, the cialis permits to have a sort of erection, also when i received an injection for the test i can have a short erection, but coz the penis has changed too much anatomy, it's crap erection, i'm sure it's not cialis or the injection which are the problem, it's the anatomy of penis now. So each product that i can take that can help erections doesn't help me in fact, coz it works, but gives the type of erection i can have now, i mean with smaller size, no sensation, albuginea totally hard, no softness, no elasticity,curvature ,no feeling in the intercourse, etc, etc...

What i need to find is a product that can remake the albuginea soft but the doctors doesnt know.I dont know how it can have changed so much and the exams dont really show it.
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Liam

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Re: Critique
« Reply #283 on: October 13, 2007, 05:21:39 AM »

Quote
The study included 40 men, aged 25-45 years, without confirmed organic erectile dysfunction.


I got hung up on this, too.  Why not confirm an organic origin if you are going to publish a study?  Still I agree with what Hawk said.  The results show it is, at least, worth a try.
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Re: Erectile Dysfunction
« Reply #284 on: October 13, 2007, 07:39:49 AM »

hmm maybe the results would not have been the same?
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antony

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Re: Erectile Dysfunction
« Reply #285 on: October 13, 2007, 08:12:33 AM »

To liam: i am not totaly bilingual, so maybe i dont understand some meanings, but in the sentence 'study on men without confirmed organic ED', as for me i understand so that its a psychological ED, so the stuff works coz precisely there are no fibrosis, or arterial problem, or whatever organic.  If the problem was organically proved, why not precising it ? As you say, if you publish a study, i think you are suposed to distinguish and precise the origin of the ED ...
Anyway, as you say, worth a try maybe, but have to be careful with the prices of everything, knowing most of them are useless... and exprensive.
I will look to see where i can find that.
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amigo

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Re: Erectile Dysfunction
« Reply #286 on: October 13, 2007, 09:10:24 AM »

I think the study is less than ideally designed in many ways.  For one thing, we can't be certain that arginine had anything to do with the success of pycnogenol.  There was essentially no improvement in the first month when arginine was given alone.  It would have been extremely useful for them to have had a fourth month where subjects were given only pycnogenol, taking arginine out of the protocol all together.  We also can't know for sure that it doesn't simply require a month of taking arginine before symptoms improve and that the addition of pycnogenol for the second and third months was irrelevant.  That being said... a 92% improvement reaches a certain threshold for me at which I'm willing to experiment with it.  Of course, the italian ionto studies also showed a high percentage of improvement, yet Levine's American study had nil.  So, while no single small study can prove anything with certainty, I think it at least gives us another avenue to explore.

As to physiological vs. psychological origins, I have to say that early on with Peyronies Disease - primarily before I was diagnosed but even for a couple years after that - I had a significant amount of erectile dysfunction which I would now attribute to psychological causes in reaction to the phsyiological changes that had occurred.  If you suddenly start having weaker erections and other gradual symptoms but don't have any idea of the cause, I think it is really easy to slip into a sexual panic during which you have a lack of confidence which significantly exacerbates the physiological symptoms.  

Once I realized that, things got markedly better (never exactly back to normal), but that realization didn't come until after I had tried some herbs that made erections stronger and more frequent.  It was only then that I was able to get my confidence back.  Of course, I stopped taking the herbs (yohimbe/horny goatweed) because they seemed to cause me a fair amount of heart palpitations and irritability (likely more the yohimbe than the HGW).  Now I've found other herbs and vitamins that help compensate for the physiological origins without noticeable side effects:  Ginkgo, ZMA, and possibly Pycnogenol (i'm still waiting to see if it does anything for me without the arginine).  

So, even if the Pycnogenol/arginine ONLY helps 92% of men with dysfunction of psychological origins, I think there may still be a place for it here.  Although, to be honest, if they were able to quantitatively measure the Nitric Oxide increase supposed by the study, it would stand to reason that the treatment would work in both psych/physiological cases.  
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Re: Psychologically or Organically based ED in Study?
« Reply #287 on: October 13, 2007, 09:17:26 AM »

Amigo makes several good points.

I also want to clarify the language in the study as I understand it.

This study did NOT say, " 40 men with confirmed psychologically based ED" (so we cannot conclude that)
It also did not say, "40 men confirmed NOT to have organic Peyronies Disease" (so we cannot conclude this)

They were not CONFIRMED period.

Again, most cases of ED have at least some component of nerve, vascular, or nitric oxide synthesis as a component.   These are caused by many issues from a wide range of diseases, injuries, and hormonal issues.

My gut feeling is that confirmation is a long investigative affair.  How many of us here have been CONFIRMED to have organic ED?  It is assumed because we have Peyronies Disease or prostatectomy, or diabetes that it is a causative factor.  If you run a study of 100 men that have ED after a prostectomy you cannot state in a study that you confirmed organic ED unless you trace nerve pathways.  A man could have psychological issues even after a prostatectomy which usually damages nerves.  If he could have psychological issues you cannot state it is confirmed organic ED.  While you can not scientifically state organic ED is confirmed in these men, from a practical view you can state that it is organic ED.
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Re: Erectile Dysfunction
« Reply #288 on: October 13, 2007, 09:36:12 AM »

I think that while absolute scientific confirmation of any diagnosis is the gold standard, I also agree with Hawk that it requires fairly rigorous investigation to achieve that standard and I am not willing to discount studies of patients with erectile dysfunction of unconfirmed origins.  Personally I feel safe in assuming that at least some of the men in that study had physiological origins and that it was exceedingly likely to have been more than the 8% who showed no improvement during the study.  However, it is much more important to me to see the results verified by others before I'd feel comfortable offering a guarantee of results.   :P
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antony

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Re: Erectile Dysfunction
« Reply #289 on: October 13, 2007, 10:09:32 AM »

Hello amigo,

I will just say that maybe you're right about some points, and sometimes, a change in your body is hard psychologically, and that it's right sometimes that psychological increases physiological problem. But it's not all cases like that, and often, there is an organic problem and that's it, the psychology has nothing to do with it, and i say that because it's sometimes 'dangerous' to speak about psychological when its organic. Some doctors in my case, at the beginning, said it was nothing, it was psychological, because they could see nothing. But these types of diagnoses are dangerous, coz it made me lose lots of time, when my problem was totaly organic. i.e., someone who experiences priapism, can lose all his erections, size, etc, and when the doctor makes exams, sometimes we can see anything. But the fact is, he has become impotent, and often for definitive, coz the erectile tissues have changed anatomy. The impotence won't be a matter of psychological problem coz the person saw changes in his penis, but a total and 100% organic problem (despite the fact there wont be any impressive curvature in example).

Hawk: but i think it's stupid, on a study like that , to say strange and not clear sentences like 'patients without confirmed organic ED', it lets a doubt about the sense. I mean, or its organic, and they say its organic ED, or its not organic , and they say its psychologic. In my opinion its easy to distinguish: organical, there is an origin: peyronie, fibrosis, shok during intercourse, penile fracture, priapism, some types of prostate problems, etc, etc, and there are visible symptoms: loss of size, curvature, change of anatomy, hardness of tunica albuginea, loss of elasticity, of flexibility, etc, etc....
If NO change at all, NO symptom at all exept ED in itself, NO physical origin at the problem, then its psychological (and there are often reasons for that, that a pscychologist can help to find).

Anyway, i will see where i can find these products and why not try? But if viagra doesn't work so much i.e , i dont know if something like that is better.

In my case, i should atack the origine of problem, hardness of tunica, fibrosis, etc, but there is nothing for that really, so just can take some medicine for help but not heal, and even with that the results are crap...
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amigo

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Re: Erectile Dysfunction
« Reply #290 on: October 13, 2007, 11:11:19 AM »

Antony - I completely agree that sometimes a broken cigar is just a broken cigar, and that psychology doesn't play a role in all cases.  I don't have any studies on psychological vs. physiological erectile dysfunction at my fingertips, but I've certainly seen a turnaround in the medical community in recent years and think that most would agree that there is an underlying physiological cause of dysfunction in the majority of cases.  Since participants in this study were apparently not screened to eliminate those with physiological etiology, it would stand to reason that the majority in this group also suffer from organic causes. 

I am in no way defending this research in terms of its pertinence to Peyronie's as the study was not conducted to investigate the effects of pycnogenol/arginine in patients with Peyronie's Disease, but instead in those with erectile dysfunction (of non-specific origin).  I'm sure that that's why Hawk very approriately copied and pasted it to the "Erectile Dysfunction" thread as opposed to wherever I originally posted it.  I also can't speak more knowledgeably about the validity of the study since I've only read the abstract and not the published research in full (somehow I feel better spending $50 on pills than $50 to download a copy of a study... hmmm... I'm going to have to think about the logic on that one.)

As to a medicine which cures the fibrosis, yeah... we're all hoping and waiting for it.  Results have been pretty discouraging time and time again.  In the meantime, I'm willing to try some other options in order to treat the symptoms until we find a genuine cure for the underlying condition.  It is REALLY frustrating to throw money down the drain with each new hope for a cure (I'd probably have a vacation home in the tropics if I could get a refund of what I've spent over the past decade on things that turned out to be useless.)  Yet, this willingness to try new things has lead me to find some treatments that have worked and are working to make things better than they were. 

By the way, I know you said that you're not fluently bilingual, but your understanding and communication in English appear very clear and concise from my point of view.  As an adult learner of a second language (spanish), I know the challenges and appreciate the effort you must have put into dominating English. 
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antony

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Re: Erectile Dysfunction
« Reply #291 on: October 13, 2007, 08:26:16 PM »

Amigo,   yes i agree more like that, and i'm sure efectively psychology sometimes play a role, but i was pointing the fact that sometimes it's not the case, and there is nothing that makes more mad , than a doctor, or a proach, who says 'its psychological' when you know it's not, and when in fact they say that because they don't know what to say, and a doctor/sexologist often prefers saying 'it's a psycholigical problem' than 'i am not competent in that precise problem, i don't know'. I'm pointing this fact, coz 1st , it's 'dangerous' for the patient, that loses a time, and sometimes feels guilty after ('if the doctor says that it's in my head, so maybe he's right?'), and once the doctor says that, your proaches ask you 'so, what diagnose?', you answer 'no diagnose', and also your proaches say 'its psychological', and it's horrible, coz 1) you suffer very hard, from something you know it's organical and real 2) you know the doctors is wrong and won't help you (you dont cure a fibrosis, an organical impotence, and all my symptoms by 'taking an anxiolitic and going to a psychologist) 3) nobody believes you, you suffer and must 'prove' it, it's just crazy....  But, as you say, sometimes, 'a broken cigar is just a broken cigar', and i wanted to confirm that. I've spoken to lots of people who sadly lose lots of time and suffered twice more with diagnoses like 'psychological' (in a problem like mine of course, but also in cases of problems like pudendal nerve, non bacterial prostatisis, in fact all very serious and hard problems, that exams and tests have often lots of dificulties to show...)


Concerning the study, i don't really know concerning peyronie (as for me, i dont have a peyronie exactly); but anyway it's interesting to see every studies, every possibility, for sure...

Apparently, yes, the medicine that cures fibrosis is not here, and living totally impotent so young and with a deformed penis is very hard when you know there is nothing to do... Hope is very important, and aparantly,very few things permit hope and optimism in this case :-( . And i totally see what you mean concerning the spent money in that crap, that would have permitted you to buy a vacation home in tropics, it's the same for me, in 'only' 8 months, i have spent an incredible money!!!-with no results....)

Thanks for my communication in english, yes it's quite hard and sometimes i am not sure if i will be understood, or if i have well understood (moreover when its medical terms).


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Liam

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Re: Italian Study
« Reply #292 on: October 14, 2007, 07:10:20 AM »

92.5 is a huge number.  It is incredible.  It's so high I have trouble believing it.  :(  I may still try it, though.   ;)

Quote
1: J Sex Marital Ther. 2003 May-Jun;29(3):207-13. Links
Treatment of erectile dysfunction with pycnogenol and L-arginine.Stanislavov R, Nikolova V.
Seminological Laboratory SBALAG, Maichin Dom, Sofia, Bulgaria. rstanik@abv.bg

Penile erection requires the relaxation of the cavernous smooth muscle, which is triggered by nitric oxide (NO). We investigated the possibility of overcoming erectile dysfunction (ED) by increasing the amounts of endogenous NO. For this purpose, we orally administered Pycnogenol, because it is known to increase production of NO by nitric oxide syntase together with L-arginine as substrate for this enzyme. The study included 40 men, aged 25-45 years, without confirmed organic erectile dysfunction. Throughout the 3-month trial period, patients received 3 ampoules Sargenor a day, a drinkable solution of the dipeptide arginyl aspartate (equivalent to 1.7 g L-arginine per day). During the second month, patients were additionally supplemented with 40 mg Pycnogenol two times per day; during the third month, the daily dosage was increased to three 40-mg Pycnogenol tablets. We obtained a sexual function questionnaire and a sexual activity diary from each patient. After 1 month of treatment with L-arginine, a statistically nonsignificant number of 2 patients (5%) experienced a normal erection. Treatment with a combination of L-arginine and Pycnogenol for the following month increased the number of men with restored sexual ability to 80%. Finally, after the third month of treatment, 92.5% of the men experienced a normal erection. We conclude that oral administration of L-arginine in combination with Pycnogenol causes a significant improvement in sexual function in men with ED without any side effects.

PMID: 12851125 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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antony

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Re: Erectile Dysfunction
« Reply #293 on: October 14, 2007, 09:07:40 AM »

The pycnogenol seems to be a french bark from a tree, i will see if i can find it here, but it seems to be expensive (30euros for 40 caps).
Concerning l-arginine, do you know if we can find it everywhere, or if there a special marks,better than others (like different type of vitamine E) ? I will try to buy some things coz i cant just stay like this, nothing will be improved 'alone' by itself for sure.
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Re: Erectile Dysfunction
« Reply #294 on: October 15, 2007, 01:44:52 PM »

Pycnogenol is indeed manufactured from French Pine Bark.  The flagship manufacturer and inventor/discoverer is a company named Flavay which is based in France.  Flavay's products are very expensive, but reputed to be the best.  But other generic pycnogenol products are available.  As for Arginine, the best Arginine product, hands down, in my opinion is San VasoFlow, since it contains co-factors that facilitate the NO process in a beneficial way.  But don't expect too much.  I don't know how the study managed to come up with the numbers they did, but I have been taking daily doses of both pycnogenol and arginine for as long as I can remember.  My Peyronies IS improved, but it is not eliminated by any means.  So this is not a silver bullet unless I am just unlucky enough to be part of the 7.5% who did not recover.  And somehow I doubt that to be the case.  - George
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amigo

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Re: Erectile Dysfunction
« Reply #295 on: October 15, 2007, 07:41:20 PM »

George - the Pycnogenol/Arginine study addressed erectile dysfunction.  It is NOT a cure for Peyronie's.  Peyronie's is never mentioned in the study.  So don't feel like you're the odd man out.
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Re: Erectile Dysfunction
« Reply #296 on: October 15, 2007, 07:51:20 PM »

Whoops!  I guess I'm just not paying attention to which thread I'm in.  :-[  ED is certainly a lot easier to treat and this might be a good combination for it.  Arginine is an old standby in this regard.  I have to admit, that it is the first time I have seen pycnogenol mentioned as a possible treatment.  - George
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antony

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Re: Erectile Dysfunction
« Reply #297 on: October 17, 2007, 01:07:34 AM »

@ georges : 'ED is certainly a lot easier to treat ' .... i would like you're right, but believe me, organical ED is not easy to treat, i would say impossible...
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Re: Erectile Dysfunction
« Reply #298 on: October 17, 2007, 11:56:21 AM »

"Easier" does not equal "easy".  Sorry, I did not mean to convey that ED is always easy to treat.  But certainly many cases of ED are easy to treat and the same is definitely not true of Peyronies.  - George
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Re: Oral Treatments - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements
« Reply #299 on: November 04, 2007, 06:10:44 AM »

The BIG problem was the cialis, which caused constant problems with sleeping accompanied with major sinus stuffiness. Levitra was then prescribed resulting with the same unfortunate side-effects - will try Viagra next, but not encouraged. A friend had suggested an herbal alternative, but that one has Yohimbe, which again is energizing. If working a fulltime job was not an issue, perhaps I could take ED meds nightly and eventually my system would adapt. Presently considering taking cialis with either ambien, klonapin, or even trazodone (although I unfortunately don't respond to the erection side-effect, it does sedate).

Surprised I find so little about these side-effects of cialis, etc. on the net concerning sleep problems and sinus disturbances. Any possible solution one's discovered for some combination to tolerate such side-effects? Thanks - could really use the input (the doctor is not overly responsive).
MOVED BY MODERATOR

I get severe headaches from the ED drugs.  I can handle a lower dose of Viagra (25mg or 50mg).  Viagra and the headaches don't stay with you as long as Levitra and Cialis.  I also take Tylenol with it.  If I take 100 mg, I get great results.  I end up taking stronger pain meds, though, and lying down.  Sometimes, however, its worth it.  ;)

The following several posts were moved from "Oral Treatments because they deal exclusively with a discussion of ED drugs and supplements.  I inserted the quote in this post to connect the conversation.
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