ORAL TREATMENTS - GENERAL - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements

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Old Man

chiguy:

No, Dr. Tim468 lives Stateside somewhere in PA I believe. He is a pulmonary specialist by profession.

Old Man
Age 92. Peyronies Disease at age 24, Peyronies Disease after
stage four radical prostatectomy in 1995, Heart surgery 2004 with three bypasses/three stents.
Three more stents in 2016. Hiatal hernia surgery 2017 with 1/3 stomach reduction. Many other surgeries too.

chiguy

Ah sorry I stand corrected. For some reason I thought he had said he was in the UK.

George999

Brend,  I don't know if you do Facebook or not, but if you do you might check here:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Low-Dose-Naltrexone-Ireland/214478879688?v=info#/pages/Low-Dose-Naltrexone-Ireland/214478879688?v=wall

Also there is a new Irish LDN forum page here:

http://www.ldndatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?p=197

I think if you can locate a doc who prescribes LDN, you will likely have a doc who can connect the dots, or at least lets hope so.  - George

despise

I have been thinking that it might be a good idea to get on cialis for blood flow and extra benefit of strong erections. Is there any downside to cialis? I'm only 18 so I'm kind of worried that there might be some ill long term effects, but I am also interested in it because when I have sex with my gf my erections aren't as strong as I would like them to be.  

brend

George,
Thanks for the info re Irish forum and link to facebook.
Brendan

brend

Hi all,
I woukd like to bring you up to date.
I spoke to my doc and he explained that Naltrexone is not licenced for sale in this country, although it is available. He would be willing to prescribe it as long as I sign a waiver absolving his medical practice of any responsibility. I dont know what to do.
Brend

chiguy


slowandsteady

Quote from: brend on January 29, 2010, 12:36:10 PM
Hi all,
I woukd like to bring you up to date.
I spoke to my doc and he explained that Naltrexone is not licenced for sale in this country, although it is available. He would be willing to prescribe it as long as I sign a waiver absolving his medical practice of any responsibility. I dont know what to do.
Brend

Naltrexone is very safe, fortunately. Remember that it has been found safe in 50 mg doses, which is a much higher dose than the 2-4.5 mg doses used in a low dose regimen.

George999

Brenden,  Both Naltrexone and Pentoxifylline are VERY safe.  I am currently taking both simultaneously for several months now.  The Naltrexone in its Low Dose form is most likely to help your fibro.  The Pentox is most likely to help your Peyronie's.  I really think you need to read all the information about Low Dose Naltrexone at the lowdosenaltrexone.org website so you more fully understand the background of this drug.  If your doctor is willing to prescribe it for you, that would indicate that you are really fortunate to have an understanding and open minded doctor.  His request for you to sign a waiver is only reasonable since he doesn't want to get in trouble for prescribing a non-approved drug.  Also I think it would be good if you looked up the youtube videos on LDN and watched some.  I think it could really help your fibro more than anything you have tried so far, but YOU are the one who has to make that decision and YOU are the one who has to feel comfortable with that decision and YOU are the one who needs to learn the ins and outs of this drug to proceed.  Pentoxifylline, of course, is a whole other issue.  It is absolutely the best drug out there for Peyronie's.  It would likely keep it from worsening, but there is really nothing that can turn the clock back other than physical approaches such as VED and traction.  If I were in your shoes, I would be taking both Naltrexone and Pentoxifylline, both are safe, easy to take AND inexpensive.  But in the end the decision is yours to make.  - George

Note to chiguy:  Pentox WILL NOT help Brenden with his fibromyalgia which in many ways is more debilitating than Peyronie's although neither is a picnic of course.  Only Low Dose Naltrexone will help with fibromyalgia.

despise

Oh and Id like to add that the reason why I'm even considering cialis at such a young age is because of sexual side effects due to peyronies disease, but I think the cialis isn't necessary, just curious.

Bart2

I'm 24, and the uro was deciding between L-arg and cialis for me (Along with the pentox he already prescribed). Essentially what he told me was that he can't seem to tell which one has more of an effect (I'm sure cialis improves the erections more but both are good for cardio function) but the price difference is pretty significant. He told me cialis is quite expensive, whereas L-arg isn't. I think that in the long run, both do not contribute as much as pentox so it is something to consider.

On a side note, I was definitely thinking that my erections sucked too and I was worried that it would interfere with my sexual intercourse with my gf. Compounded by a pretty significant curve (70 or so degrees mid shaft downwards and 15 or so degrees midshaft leftwards) I was really stressed...particularly since the only previous sexual intercourse experience I had was a one night stand and I was really intoxicated so I had a case of the whiskey dick haha (oh the embarrassment haha). Anyways, and I acknowledge that already with only a month of treatment I have experienced better erections, that you just honestly need to be comfortable I believe and the erections will come with the confidence. While talking to my uro about erection problems (And quite possibly a prosthesis as a fixer upper for the curve and erection difficulties) he said I am way too early in my treatment regiment to think about a prosthesis, let alone any sort of grafting surgery. He actually said that I wouldn't even really be a candidate for prosthesis until we could prove that any ED issues I was "experiencing" were due to organic problems, which I now can say for me at least that it was all my mindset.

So yea, although telling you to relax and be confident is of course easier said than done in the moment, I think from a Peyronies Disease treatment perspective the cialis and L-arg have similar results long term for different prices. Of course if it is an organic problem then I'm sure most people would say to get the cialis, or likely compound the effects and take both if you can afford it.

Bart

despise

Quote from: bart15 on February 14, 2010, 08:14:42 PM
I'm 24, and the uro was deciding between L-arg and cialis for me (Along with the pentox he already prescribed). Essentially what he told me was that he can't seem to tell which one has more of an effect (I'm sure cialis improves the erections more but both are good for cardio function) but the price difference is pretty significant. He told me cialis is quite expensive, whereas L-arg isn't. I think that in the long run, both do not contribute as much as pentox so it is something to consider.

On a side note, I was definitely thinking that my erections sucked too and I was worried that it would interfere with my sexual intercourse with my gf. Compounded by a pretty significant curve (70 or so degrees mid shaft downwards and 15 or so degrees midshaft leftwards) I was really stressed...particularly since the only previous sexual intercourse experience I had was a one night stand and I was really intoxicated so I had a case of the whiskey dick haha (oh the embarrassment haha). Anyways, and I acknowledge that already with only a month of treatment I have experienced better erections, that you just honestly need to be comfortable I believe and the erections will come with the confidence. While talking to my uro about erection problems (And quite possibly a prosthesis as a fixer upper for the curve and erection difficulties) he said I am way too early in my treatment regiment to think about a prosthesis, let alone any sort of grafting surgery. He actually said that I wouldn't even really be a candidate for prosthesis until we could prove that any ED issues I was "experiencing" were due to organic problems, which I now can say for me at least that it was all my mindset.

So yea, although telling you to relax and be confident is of course easier said than done in the moment, I think from a Peyronies Disease treatment perspective the cialis and L-arg have similar results long term for different prices. Of course if it is an organic problem then I'm sure most people would say to get the cialis, or likely compound the effects and take both if you can afford it.

Bart

I always had plenty of anxiety for solid erections due to my peyronies, but in the end I got so comfortable with my gf-that was no longer a issue. Of course my erections aren't as solid as I would like them to be, but they are strong enough thanks to the VED therapy. If you are having real issues creating a erection while masterbation then it is quite possible it's not your anxiety. But hearing what you have to say it sounds like you need to work on your anxiety as well as your peyronies. The bad thing is you got peyronies disease, the good news is that you now have a chance to improve yourself in health, whether its physical and mental (which actually go together quite a bit) I'm a 18 year old peyronies disease sufferer and I cannot begin to tell you how much peyronies destroyed me, at first. I developed panic attacks, GAD, (Generalized Anxiety Disorder) and Depression. I spent my days asking questions such as, why me? Did I deserve this? What am I going to do now? Pefore I got peyronies I was already having a lot of issues and this was the last straw for me. I first dramatically got worse and worse. Turning into a alchoholic, got a DUI (after only having my license for 3 months) lost a lot of friends and just started to slowly die in my own self pity. In the end I met my gf, now my fiance, and started to change for the better. I stoped drinking, smoking cigs, smoking pot entirely, sadly that didn't end my anxiety and depression. So I had to get on lexapro even though I didn't evoided that route for years. I can honestly say it has helped me a whole great deal, but with a few setbacks. Lexapro made my erections even worse, because it is horrible for blood flow, but with the ved therapy and daily exercise it hasn't been much of a issue. I also suffer from pre mature ejaculation, and even though that doesn't bother my fiance much, it most definitely bothers me. Sometimes when life seems hard and you are more unfortunate than others you just have to let go that way of thinking and only think of ways to better yourself. Exercising has been helping me out a great deal mentally and physically (two seem to go together quite a lot) and with my sexual performance as well. My fiance wants me to become stronger and bigger, but I am really into cardio like running, because it helps my health. bleh sorry for rambling on =P hopefully this helps you out some. If you would like to talk don't hesitate to message me.

If you really feel Cialis is necessary then get a prescription for that, but I would only keep it for sexual activity, due to how expensive it is. I haven't gotten Cialis simply because I don't want to depend on it. I will only resort to that if it is completely necessary. L-Arginine is definitely something you should get. It's great for nitric oxide and It's great for nocturnal erections, except for my case =P doesn't really help with my nocturnal erections, but that's probably due to the Lexapro.


Bart2

Hey despise,

I was actually just inputing my opinion on your prior post about getting some info on cialis, and what people thought about it. Personally, I don't need it. And yes I have the variety of supplements (Pentox, L-Arg, Vitamin E and D3) and both VED and traction, so I am really bombarding this condition. (On a side note, I am very pleased with both physical therapies, as I am getting good stretches with the traction device and today I had a really solid B cylinder session with the VED...the head of my penis almost touched the actual negative pressure pump so I got huge engorgement which I did not think was previously possible  :) )

Also, I do not remember a traumatic experience in my case and because my curve has been around for as long as I can remember, I may have a congenital curve rather than peyronie's. (I talked to a guy on here who is considering surgery, and he showed me some pics of his curve which are very similar to mine, to which the surgeon told him that guys with large penises often develop that assymetrical curve due to one side being shorter than the other). Why I bring that up is that none of this stuff has been proven for congenital so it is really a shot in the dark. Anyways, things are progressing for me. I commend you on the workouts, peyronie's/curve or not, people should work out regardless.

Are you still taking the anti anxiety meds? Do you think there is room for you to decrease the dosages you intake to maybe help with your erections. I don't know much about the underlying mechanisms involved there, but you mentioned yourself you aren't getting any nocturnal erections and it could be cuz of the meds...

despise

Quote from: bart15 on February 15, 2010, 12:46:15 AM
Hey despise,

I was actually just inputing my opinion on your prior post about getting some info on cialis, and what people thought about it. Personally, I don't need it. And yes I have the variety of supplements (Pentox, L-Arg, Vitamin E and D3) and both VED and traction, so I am really bombarding this condition. (On a side note, I am very pleased with both physical therapies, as I am getting good stretches with the traction device and today I had a really solid B cylinder session with the VED...the head of my penis almost touched the actual negative pressure pump so I got huge engorgement which I did not think was previously possible  :) )

Also, I do not remember a traumatic experience in my case and because my curve has been around for as long as I can remember, I may have a congenital curve rather than peyronie's. (I talked to a guy on here who is considering surgery, and he showed me some pics of his curve which are very similar to mine, to which the surgeon told him that guys with large penises often develop that assymetrical curve due to one side being shorter than the other). Why I bring that up is that none of this stuff has been proven for congenital so it is really a shot in the dark. Anyways, things are progressing for me. I commend you on the workouts, peyronie's/curve or not, people should work out regardless.

Are you still taking the anti anxiety meds? Do you think there is room for you to decrease the dosages you intake to maybe help with your erections. I don't know much about the underlying mechanisms involved there, but you mentioned yourself you aren't getting any nocturnal erections and it could be cuz of the meds...

hehe oh gosh how embarissing =P reread your post and yeah my bad! Do you really think the traction is helping? I have been really curious about it, but it just kinda sounds pointless, because I can stretch my plaque from the VED. I still haven't got on Pentox either sadly, but once my medical insurance falls through, that's the first thing I'm doing.

I'm still on 10mg of lexapro, which is the smallest therapeutic dose, but I'm most definitely not planning on getting off of it any time soon. I know It's horrible for my erections and it would help me a great deal with the peyronies, but believe it or not my anxiety is way more traumitizing than peyronies. I would way rather be a little happier and have a little peace of mind then to not have the best sexual performance. I'll admit lexapro hasn't completely fixed my anxiety and depression, but it has definitely helped, and that's a start.

BrooksBro

I have continued taking 800 IU Vitamin E daily since my first urologist recommend it more than 1 year ago, during the acute and painful stage.  In reading about it, more than 200 IU daily for an extended period can sometimes lead to problems.  More importantly, the multiple studies referenced in the study liked below lead me to believe that after the pain subsides, Vitamin E is not very effective in decreasing either the plaque or curvature.  For these reasons, I am going to stop taking high dose Vitamin E.


http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Oral%20Therapy%20for%20Peyronies%20Disease.pdf

Excerpt:
...with additional follow-up of a larger cohort, they subsequently reported that while 99% of patients experienced a decrease in pain, 70% noted no objective improvement.

Pryor and Farrell reported that 35% of patients taking vitamin E noted an improvement in penile pain, however minimal effects on plaque size or penile curvature could be expected.

Gelbard et al evaluated patient's perception of their disease in a questionnaire survey. They detected no difference between those patients treated with vitamin E and those untreated with respect to overall improvement (22% vs 19%), improvement in curvature (11% vs 11%) or improvement in pain (53% vs 44%).  More untreated patients characterized their disease as one of gradual resolution (14%) than those treated with vitamin E (9%).


jackp

BrooksBro

IMHO you need to stay with the Vitamin E about 6 more months. I was on 400IU 3 times a day for the first 18 months the dropped to twice a day after for years. Back in 1995 that was all we had along with Potaba.

At 18 months my curve got lots better, the bad thing is when this happens you loose 20 to 25% of penile length depending on the curve. Hopefully you are on the VED protocol to help prevent the loss of length and it will help the curve.

My 2 cents.

Jackp

BrooksBro

Thanks for the suggestion.  I have been using the FastSize for about three months, and it seems to be restoring length and girth.  I don't yet detect any reduction in plaque or curve.  The prescription meds (oral PAV & topical testosterone) are effective, so I don't need a VED, yet.  Erections are pain-free and adequate for myself and spouse.

My dietitian was telling me not to take over 200 IU per day.  She said there are studies showing an increased risk of death at higher doses (800-1600 IU/day), mostly in men over 60 with existing heart disease.  Other studies found an INCREASE in cell damage at 800 IU, the very thing Vitamin E is supposed to prevent.  The recommended intake is only 15 IU/day.

Quote from: jackp on February 16, 2010, 10:42:44 AM
BrooksBro

IMHO you need to stay with the Vitamin E about 6 more months. I was on 400IU 3 times a day for the first 18 months the dropped to twice a day after for years. Back in 1995 that was all we had along with Potaba.

At 18 months my curve got lots better, the bad thing is when this happens you loose 20 to 25% of penile length depending on the curve. Hopefully you are on the VED protocol to help prevent the loss of length and it will help the curve.

My 2 cents.

Jackp

jackp

Brooks Bro

I was on that much Vitiamin E from 1995 until my heart stents 10/07. I was going to the heart doctor yearly for check up and he told me he had no problem with the Vitiamin E. After the heart stents I was on Plavix for just over a year. Now I do not take any type of blood thinner except ibuprofen for arthritis.

I was at the heart doctor last month for an Echo and blood work. Everything is fine.

Jackp

Lancaster

George is promoting mangosteen juice.  I would stay away from juices all together.  Of all people george you should know better than to promote drinking any juice because you have pounded the boards on glycation, drinking juice of anykind (dumps) sugar into the body all at once and that is a big no-no.  


Eating fruit is good because the sugar is bound in fiber and released (slowly) into the body at a rate the pancreas can handle.  

BrooksBro

Anyone have experience with Caverta tablets?   They are supposed to be an offshore brand of sildenafil (Viagra).  If you have experience with them, what was it, what was your source and cost?  Thanks.

snowydreams

How does Pentox help Peyronie's and can it improve erectile function?  Are there any major side effects associated with it and have any of the board members who have used it experienced side effects, especially cardiovascular ones?
I have been taking Vitamin E 800 IU for quite some time and have experienced some mild pain in my sinuses and noticed blood in my phlegm several times in the last few months.  Is it true that excessive use of Vitamin E can cause hemorrhagic stroke and what is the recommended dosage?  Should I get tested for Vitamin E in my blood?

George999

Quote from: snowydreams on March 08, 2010, 03:51:44 PM
How does Pentox help Peyronie's and can it improve erectile function?

In multiple ways.  For example, it blocks TFG-beta1, an immune system cytokine known to play a role in aggravating Peyronie's.  TGF-beta1 is normally utilized by the body in the process of breaking down scar tissue.  In the case of Peyronie's it becomes overactive and damages adjacent healthy tissue in the process, thus adding to, rather than reducing scar tissue.  Pentox subdues TGF-beta1 activity.  Additionally, Pentox makes red blood cells more flexible so they can better oxygenate damaged tissues.  Pentox likely has other ways of benefiting guys with Peyronie's, but these are the two best known benefits.  I took Pentox for a couple of years and made sure I took it only with meals.  It was extremely helpful to me and I had almost no side effects.  At this point I am off it since my supply ran out and Dr Lue did not renew my prescription.  I have been off it for over a month now and my Peyronie's has not become active again and shows no signs of doing so at this point.  I am very grateful to Dr Lue for prescribing it for me and am convinced that it has saved me a lot of pain and further damage.  I highly recommend it.

Quote from: snowydreams on March 08, 2010, 03:51:44 PM
Are there any major side effects associated with it and have any of the board members who have used it experienced side effects, especially cardiovascular ones?

Each patient, of course, reacts differently.  But most of the reported side effects are gastro intestinal or sleep issues and none are serious.  Most people tolerate Pentox well and it has a very long track record of safe use.

Quote from: snowydreams on March 08, 2010, 03:51:44 PM
I have been taking Vitamin E 800 IU for quite some time and have experienced some mild pain in my sinuses and noticed blood in my phlegm several times in the last few months.  Is it true that excessive use of Vitamin E can cause hemorrhagic stroke and what is the recommended dosage?  Should I get tested for Vitamin E in my blood?

Vitamin E tends to cause bleeding because it counteracts the effects of Vitamin K.  If you are not taking a prescription blood thinner, you will probably find that taking a little bit of Vitamin K on a regular basis will stop any Vitamin E bleeding effect you might be experiencing.

DISCLAIMER:  I am just trying to provide you with information.  I am not a doctor and would suggest you discuss these issues with your doctor before proceeding further.  Your pharmacist might also be able to give you expert advice on these issues.  - George

George999

There is a new and very revealing study out on Vitamin D and cancer.  Here is the link:  Association between pre-diagnostic circulating vitamin D concentration and risk of colorectal cancer in European populations:a nested case-control study.

The really revealing part is this brief note:

QuoteThe dose-response analysis of the interaction between circulating 25-(OH)D concentration and level of dietary retinol intake (P for interaction=0.030) indicates that the inverse colorectal cancer risk association of higher 25-(OH)D was stronger at lower intakes of retinol (table 5).

In plain English this means that Vitamin A blocks the beneficial effects of Vitamin D!  There has been a lot of speculation on how Vitamin A and Vitamin D interact.  Some have even suggested that they are synergistic.  Now we are learning that quite the opposite is true.  High Vitamin A intake will negate high Vitamin D intake.  This means that those getting their Vitamin D from things like cod liver oil may not be reducing cancer risk at all.  In fact they may be increasing cancer risk because of the blocking effect of the Vitamin A.  This may explain why a some Vitamin D testing has shown it to actually elevate cancer risk.  If the source was cod liver oil, that could be the expected result.  Because this effect involves receptors, it is likely that Vitamin A also blocks other beneficial qualities of Vitamin D.  Beware!

In light of this new emerging knowledge of Vitamin A/Vitamin D interaction, old studies are currently being reevaluated and results being reported.  Here is an example:  Meta-analysis of longitudinal studies: Serum vitamin D and prostate cancer risk

If you want to be sure you are getting enough Vitamin A, DO NOT TAKE RETINOL!  Instead make sure you are getting enough beta carotene.  This way your body can control Vitamin A levels and prevent them from becoming too elevated.

- George

Fred22

Quote from: George999 on March 08, 2010, 11:05:50 PM
Quote from: snowydreams on March 08, 2010, 03:51:44 PM
How does Pentox help Peyronie's and can it improve erectile function?

In multiple ways.  For example, it blocks TFG-beta1, an immune system cytokine known to play a role in aggravating Peyronie's.  TGF-beta1 is normally utilized by the body in the process of breaking down scar tissue.  In the case of Peyronie's it becomes overactive and damages adjacent healthy tissue in the process, thus adding to, rather than reducing scar tissue.  Pentox subdues TGF-beta1 activity.  Additionally, Pentox makes red blood cells more flexible so they can better oxygenate damaged tissues.  Pentox likely has other ways of benefiting guys with Peyronie's, but these are the two best known benefits.  I took Pentox for a couple of years and made sure I took it only with meals.  It was extremely helpful to me and I had almost no side effects.  At this point I am off it since my supply ran out and Dr Lue did not renew my prescription.  I have been off it for over a month now and my Peyronie's has not become active again and shows no signs of doing so at this point.  I am very grateful to Dr Lue for prescribing it for me and am convinced that it has saved me a lot of pain and further damage.  I highly recommend it.

Quote from: snowydreams on March 08, 2010, 03:51:44 PM
Are there any major side effects associated with it and have any of the board members who have used it experienced side effects, especially cardiovascular ones?

Each patient, of course, reacts differently.  But most of the reported side effects are gastro intestinal or sleep issues and none are serious.  Most people tolerate Pentox well and it has a very long track record of safe use.

Quote from: snowydreams on March 08, 2010, 03:51:44 PM
I have been taking Vitamin E 800 IU for quite some time and have experienced some mild pain in my sinuses and noticed blood in my phlegm several times in the last few months.  Is it true that excessive use of Vitamin E can cause hemorrhagic stroke and what is the recommended dosage?  Should I get tested for Vitamin E in my blood?

Vitamin E tends to cause bleeding because it counteracts the effects of Vitamin K.  If you are not taking a prescription blood thinner, you will probably find that taking a little bit of Vitamin K on a regular basis will stop any Vitamin E bleeding effect you might be experiencing.

DISCLAIMER:  I am just trying to provide you with information.  I am not a doctor and would suggest you discuss these issues with your doctor before proceeding further.  Your pharmacist might also be able to give you expert advice on these issues.  - George

Hi George,

What was Dr. Lue's rationale for not renewing your pentox script?  Does he just feel that it's done all it can do?  How are you, BTW?

Fred


George999

Fred,  Quite honestly I really don't know why doctor Lue did not renew the prescription.  I emailed him and he did not respond.  Perhaps he expected me to schedule follow up visits which I did not do.  In all fairness, I haven't pursued it any further since I haven't had a problem.  The Pentox I took seemingly did the job and at this point I really no longer seem to have a need for it.  I would still highly recommend both Pentoxifylline AND Dr. Lue when it comes to dealing with Peyronie's.  My current overall health and seemingly my Peyronie's symptoms as well, currently seem to be headed in a positive direction.  At this point I am really planning to look into the possibility that I might have overloaded my body with elemental mercury.  I have used fluorescent lighting in my home exclusively for over thirty years and have accidentally broken them on multiple occasions and exposed myself repeatedly to the fumes as a result (I am now changing all my home lighting to LED as quickly as possible, about 50% converted at this point).  Years ago I painted the interior of my home with paint that was later found to be contaminated with inordinate amounts of mercury for which the manufacturer was later successfully sued.  Additionally, around the time all this stuff started, I had a mouthful of large disintegrating amalgam fillings which were all removed and replaced around the same time.  If you look at the effects of overloading oneself with elemental mercury, you can see how I might have some suspicions in this regard.  The hypertension and peripheral neuropathy tend to match up to some degree.  I am also wondering in the bigger scheme of things if this might be driving systemic inflammation which is also feeding into the Peyronie's syndrome.  So right now, I am exploring in other areas, but if it turns out that I feel a need to get back on Pentoxifylline, I won't hesitate to seek another referral to Dr Lue.  - George

Fred22

George,
Glad to hear the positive report RE your Peyronie's.  Wish I could report the same.  I got a VED around Xmas, but haven't been able to use it much due to increase in pain.  I've been doing 800 mg ibuprofen 2x daily for about 10 days, but it's not much help.  I'm stopping it today.  Just wish I could find a uro in the area who would prescribe pentox, but it might be too late even for that as I've had pain for almost 4 years now.  I do my best to stay positive, but with chronic pain and the toll it's taken on sexual intimacy with my wife it can get quite depressing.  Hopefully some of the current research (Xiaflex, Hyperthermia, etc.) will present us with some better options.

Fred

Old Man

Fred22:

I suppose by now you have read what the cost of Xiaflex is at the moment. The distributor price for it is $3,250.00 per vial. Each vial contains only about one or two injections at the most based on who is doing it.

By the time that the uro/doc's markup is applied, the cost will be much higher. Don't think that insurance will be paying for it either. Fairly sure that Medicare will not pay either.

I don't see much hope for the price coming down soon. Also, my doc says that he doesn't think that Xiaflex would help much with Peyronies Disease.

Sorry to negative about it, but that is the way that is looks to me right now. Reserve the right to be corrected later if it does prove beneficial.

Old Man
Age 92. Peyronies Disease at age 24, Peyronies Disease after
stage four radical prostatectomy in 1995, Heart surgery 2004 with three bypasses/three stents.
Three more stents in 2016. Hiatal hernia surgery 2017 with 1/3 stomach reduction. Many other surgeries too.

ComeBacKid

Old Man,

With all due respect I don't think you can make those statements about xiaflex.  Since the frist FDA trial is not done with the attention of trying to get great results, but merely prove safety.  On top of this, my doctor reviewed the reports from Auxilium, and says these are excellent results.

Insurance companies do love to not pay for treatments, but if the xiaflex treatments are cheaper than surgery, they may cover them.  

If xiaflex is shown to be effective and the injections are not covered, that is a shameful tactic by an insurance company.  As we know with the VED some companies will cover them, and some not, depending on the code and diagnosis ED vs. Peyronies.  There are no high rate studies to show VED helps peyronies, but some of us have seen results.  If top urologists do xiaflex studies which show improvement that will be awfully hard to ignore.  

Comebackid

Old Man

CBK:

You have your position and I have mine. If you will note, I left a caveat in the last sentence of my previous post. Will change my position when information to the contrary is afforded at some future date and will so indicate on this forum. I based my statements on the word of my personal physician who is a specialist in DC operations. His information came from his medical association and a personal friend somewhere on the East Coast who is well versed in his knowledge of Xiaflex since he participated in the trials, etc. To his knowledge nothing has been established to indicate that any insurance will cover the cost yet. He stated his group will not be administering the medicine until the coverage has or has not been established due to the high cost.

Whether or not Xiaflex will work for Peyronies Disease has yet to be established according to the information given to me at the present time. So, bottom line, I don't hold out much hope for any change in my position until proven otherwise by the trials for Peyronies Disease, if and when they are ever done.

Old Man  
Age 92. Peyronies Disease at age 24, Peyronies Disease after
stage four radical prostatectomy in 1995, Heart surgery 2004 with three bypasses/three stents.
Three more stents in 2016. Hiatal hernia surgery 2017 with 1/3 stomach reduction. Many other surgeries too.

snowydreams

Does Pentox interact with DHEA or PDE5 inhibitors(Viagra, Levitra or Cialis) and what is the name of the company that makes Pentox in the USA?  If one takes Pentox for a long time, should he do any diagnostic testing(blood or cardiac tests) or be examined by a physician?

Skjaldborg

Quote from: snowydreams on April 15, 2010, 04:11:51 PM
Does Pentox interact with DHEA or PDE5 inhibitors(Viagra, Levitra or Cialis) and what is the name of the company that makes Pentox in the USA?  If one takes Pentox for a long time, should he do any diagnostic testing(blood or cardiac tests) or be examined by a physician?

Snowydreams, the brand name of pentox is trental. I took it for 8 months and was not required to do any testing. In general, it is a safe medication with few side effects. It is often given to people with intermittent claudication (due to severe diabetes), people with liver fibrosis and sickle cell anemia. Simply put, it's meant for very sick people and if they can handle it, healthy people with Peyronie's can handle it.

I believe some urologists have prescribed pentox along with cialis and viagra, so I do not believe there are any interaction issues. Talk to your urologist or doctor for specifics though.

-Skjald

BrooksBro

Quote from: Skjaldborg on April 16, 2010, 12:24:30 PM
Quote from: snowydreams on April 15, 2010, 04:11:51 PM
Does Pentox interact with DHEA or PDE5 inhibitors(Viagra, Levitra or Cialis) and what is the name of the company that makes Pentox in the USA?  If one takes Pentox for a long time, should he do any diagnostic testing(blood or cardiac tests) or be examined by a physician?

Snowydreams, the brand name of pentox is trental. I took it for 8 months and was not required to do any testing. In general, it is a safe medication with few side effects. It is often given to people with intermittent claudication (due to severe diabetes), people with liver fibrosis and sickle cell anemia. Simply put, it's meant for very sick people and if they can handle it, healthy people with Peyronie's can handle it.

I believe some urologists have prescribed pentox along with cialis and viagra, so I do not believe there are any interaction issues. Talk to your urologist or doctor for specifics though.

-Skjald


Good reply.  I am on what my doc calls "triple therapy."  That is:  400 mg pentox 3X daily, 25 mg Viagra nightly, 1,000 mg L-Argenine nightly.  If cost is a concern, then be sure to ask for generic rather than brand name.    

From Wikipedia:

Pentoxifylline is the International Nonproprietary Name (INN) of a drug sold by Aventis under the brand name Trental. Its chemical name is 1-(5-oxohexyl)-3, 7-dimethylxanthine. Pentoxifylline is a xanthine derivative. Other brand names include Pentox, Pentoxil, and Flexital.

Other brand names:
Pentoxil (Upsher Smith)
Pentoxin (Ratiopharm)
Artal (Leiras)
Vasonit (Lannacher)

snowydreams

QuoteSnowydreams, the brand name of pentox is trental. I took it for 8 months and was not required to do any testing. In general, it is a safe medication with few side effects. It is often given to people with intermittent claudication (due to severe diabetes), people with liver fibrosis and sickle cell anemia. Simply put, it's meant for very sick people and if they can handle it, healthy people with Peyronie's can handle it.

I believe some urologists have prescribed pentox along with cialis and viagra, so I do not believe there are any interaction issues. Talk to your urologist or doctor for specifics though.

But don't both Pentox and Cialis or Viagra affect the cardiovascular system and wouldn't taking them both at the same time heighten any symptoms.  I remember when I took Flomax years ago, I used to occasionally get palpitations(100+) at rest even though I was in good cardiac health and my cardiac tests were normal and Flomax is safer than both Pentox and Cialis or Viagra, so I was wondering if there was any interaction and whether it is prudent to do any diagnostic testing when taking Pentox long-term or combining it with Cialis or Viagra.  I think it is better to call the company which makes the medication as they would have more info than a urologist or pharmacist.

Some of the side effects of Pentox mentioned here:

http://www.rxlist.com/trental-drug.htm

http://www.healthyontario.com/DrugDetails.aspx?brand_id=1718&brand_name=ratio-Pentoxifylline

George999

Quote from: snowydreams on April 17, 2010, 01:49:42 PMFlomax is safer than both Pentox and Cialis or Viagra

Can you please provide a reference for that statement?  ALL drugs have side effects.  ALL drugs have potential interactions.  You can't tell which drugs are safer and which are less safe just by reading warning labels.  You tell which drugs are safer by comparing the statistics of how many people have dangerous reactions to them.  Since I don't think you have those numbers, I don't think you have a basis to say that Pentoxifylline and PD5 inhibitors are less safe than an alpha blocker like Flomax.  And VERY frankly, I would take the opinion off a pharmacist over a pharmaceutical company employee ANY DAY as to the relative safety of a given drug.  Would you also go to a Ford dealer to tell you how safe a Ford is?  Not me!  I would go to an independent person with training.  NO company is going to tell you that their product is unsafe.  Lots of people listened to Merck tell them how safe Vioxx is and more than a few of them are dead as a result.  Go to an INDEPENDENT pharmacist with these questions.  Even doctors are suspect because they DO get perks for moving certain pharmaceutical products.  In the whole scheme of things ALL the drugs you mentioned, including Flomax, are relatively safe.  These are drugs that literally millions of people around the world use safely day in and day out.  TALK to a pharmacist AND to your physician IF you have any pre-existing conditions or are currently on any other prescription drugs.  ALL prescription drugs should be managed by a physician.  Thats the bottom line.  Some are fudging on that a bit because it is so difficult to find doctors willing to prescribe Pentox, but in that case its extremely important to talk to a pharmacist AND read ALL the precautions AND stop taking the drug if red flags emerge.  But please don't post statements without any evidence to back them up.

Tim468

Side effects are always part of taking a medication. Funny you should mention Flomax - which many men have associated with the onset of their Peyronie's Disease - in comparison to Pentox, which some of us take to treat Peyronie's Disease.

Flomax could easily trigger Peyronie's due to interference with testosterone metabolism, yet that is not a listed side effect.

But you are right, any combination of drugs that potentially affect circulation could affect you adversely if you have a history of that happening.

Tim
52, Peyronies Disease for 30 years, upward curve and some new lesions.

snowydreams

QuoteCan you please provide a reference for that statement?  ALL drugs have side effects.  ALL drugs have potential interactions.  You can't tell which drugs are safer and which are less safe just by reading warning labels.  You tell which drugs are safer by comparing the statistics of how many people have dangerous reactions to them.  Since I don't think you have those numbers, I don't think you have a basis to say that Pentoxifylline and PD5 inhibitors are less safe than an alpha blocker like Flomax.  And VERY frankly, I would take the opinion off a pharmacist over a pharmaceutical company employee ANY DAY as to the relative safety of a given drug.  Would you also go to a Ford dealer to tell you how safe a Ford is?  Not me!  I would go to an independent person with training.  NO company is going to tell you that their product is unsafe.  Lots of people listened to Merck tell them how safe Vioxx is and more than a few of them are dead as a result.  Go to an INDEPENDENT pharmacist with these questions.  Even doctors are suspect because they DO get perks for moving certain pharmaceutical products.  In the whole scheme of things ALL the drugs you mentioned, including Flomax, are relatively safe.  These are drugs that literally millions of people around the world use safely day in and day out.  TALK to a pharmacist AND to your physician IF you have any pre-existing conditions or are currently on any other prescription drugs.  ALL prescription drugs should be managed by a physician.  Thats the bottom line.  Some are fudging on that a bit because it is so difficult to find doctors willing to prescribe Pentox, but in that case its extremely important to talk to a pharmacist AND read ALL the precautions AND stop taking the drug if red flags emerge.  But please don't post statements without any evidence to back them up.

No need to get angry.  I was just interested in whether Pentox has any side effects, especially when taken long-term.  I certainly think that the potential benefits of Pentox and the PDE5 inhibitors outweigh the risks, though it is prudent to be checked up if taking them long-term.  As for Flomax being safer than the PDE5 inhibitors, then I have no doubt that Flomax is safer than them as I remember reading an article which mentioned that hundreds of deaths have been reported from taking Viagra(who knows how many have been unreported or caused by Viagra and other PDE5 inhibitors).  I haven't heard of any deaths caused by Flomax, though it is possible.  As for Flomax and Pentox,  I haven't read about Pentox as much as Flomax, but one of the side effects reported for Pentox is internal bleeding, something which I haven't read about Flomax.  Also, Pentox is generally recommended to be taken for several months, thus increasing the potential for side effects, while Flomax is taken for a much shorter time and can have an immediate effect on relieving symptoms.  That all drugs have side effects is true, but there is a difference between the side effects of these drugs.  I am sure you wouldn't compare between Saw Palmetto or Vioxx which killed thousands and caused thousands of heart attacks.  As for the information about side effects, I didn't just read warning labels, but looked up the side effects on the internet and read pharmaceutical compendiums.  If anything, the side effects for medications printed up by pharmacists exclude many side effects.  I agree that pharmaceutical companies aren't honest and cannot be trusted in many aspects, but I would presume they would be honest when it comes to their medications interacting with other medications.  I mentioned calling the pharmaceutical company because a pharmacist told me to do so when I asked her whether Pentox interacts with another medication and pharmacists don't know everything about a certain medicine.  I don't know why you excluded pharmacists from pharmaceutical companies and physicians in your criticism as they can be just as guilty as the previous two as they have an interest in selling medication and making a profit.

QuoteSide effects are always part of taking a medication. Funny you should mention Flomax - which many men have associated with the onset of their Peyronie's Disease - in comparison to Pentox, which some of us take to treat Peyronie's Disease.

Flomax could easily trigger Peyronie's due to interference with testosterone metabolism, yet that is not a listed side effect.

But you are right, any combination of drugs that potentially affect circulation could affect you adversely if you have a history of that happening

Can you give more information on the effect of Flomax on Peyronie's and its interference with testosterone metabolism as I took Flomax for 2 months and my Peyronie's began several months afterwards?  How exactly does it interfere with testosterone metabolism?  Can this interference be detected on blood tests?
Also, I would presume that most of those have Peyronie's have suffered an injury of some sort as mentioned by many on this forum.



George999

Quote from: snowydreams on April 20, 2010, 12:31:36 PM
No need to get angry.  I was just interested in whether Pentox has any side effects, especially when taken long-term.  I certainly think that the potential benefits of Pentox and the PDE5 inhibitors outweigh the risks, though it is prudent to be checked up if taking them long-term.  As for Flomax being safer than the PDE5 inhibitors, then I have no doubt that Flomax is safer than them as I remember reading an article which mentioned that hundreds of deaths have been reported from taking Viagra(who knows how many have been unreported or caused by Viagra and other PDE5 inhibitors).  I haven't heard of any deaths caused by Flomax, though it is possible.  As for Flomax and Pentox,  I haven't read about Pentox as much as Flomax, but one of the side effects reported for Pentox is internal bleeding, something which I haven't read about Flomax.  Also, Pentox is generally recommended to be taken for several months, thus increasing the potential for side effects, while Flomax is taken for a much shorter time and can have an immediate effect on relieving symptoms.

You have to realize that exponentially more people are taking Viagra and other PDE5 inhibitors than are taking Flomax.  While Flomax is used mainly by older guys with prostate issues, Viagra is taken by men of all ages for "sexual enhancement".  Just comparing the number of Flowmax ads with the number of Viagra ads should be an indication of where the money AND the sales are.  You also have to realize that the number of guys taking Viagra WITHOUT a prescription or physician oversight is almost certainly far higher than with Flomax.  This is a breeding ground for problems.  Viagra type drugs ARE sexual enhancement drugs.  Who is going to deliberately overdose on their drug?  The Viagra patient or the Flowmax patient?  Who is going to be more likely to disregard the warnings on their drug.  The guy with the prostate problem or the guy trying to get an even bigger orgasm?  That doesn't make Viagra inherently more dangerous than Flowmax.  It only makes it more likely to be abused, and when any drug is abused, people usually die as a result.

Next, comparing Flomax to Pentox.  Yes, Pentox can cause internal bleeding.  It is a blood thinner.  Aspirin can cause internal bleeding that can kill you as well.  Does that make Aspirin more dangerous than Flowmax?  I hardly think so.  Here again, if you combine Pentox, Aspirin, and other blood thinners all at the same time, you can run into trouble, although I safely used multiple blood thinners, including Pentox, simultaneously with no problem, mainly because I knew the drugs and supplements in question and took prudent precautions.  When you take Pentox, take it with meals.  Don't take Pentox if you are taking a major blood thinner like Coumadin OR if you have a pre-existing medical issue like bleeding ulcers.  If you are taking Pentox with Vitamin E (also a blood thinner), take Vitamin K as well to counter the blood thinning effects of Vitamin E.  If you need to take full dose Aspirin for some reason, you might want to skip the Pentox for a day or so.  Common sense sort of stuff.

Quote from: snowydreams on April 20, 2010, 12:31:36 PMThat all drugs have side effects is true, but there is a difference between the side effects of these drugs.  I am sure you wouldn't compare between Saw Palmetto or Vioxx which killed thousands and caused thousands of heart attacks.

Believe me, neither Viagra or Pentox can be compared to Vioxx with its hidden risks.  Vioxx risks are more akin to Statin drug risks.  Nevertheless, I actually disagreed with the decision to remove Vioxx from the market.  Vioxx, contrary to popular perception, was actually a good drug.  The problem was that it was not restricted to people wherein the benefits would outweigh the risks.  Unfortunately it was marketed to people who could have done as well with other less risky drugs and thus was made unavailable even to those who could have benefited from it.  Such is life.

Quote from: snowydreams on April 20, 2010, 12:31:36 PMAs for the information about side effects, I didn't just read warning labels, but looked up the side effects on the internet and read pharmaceutical compendiums.  If anything, the side effects for medications printed up by pharmacists exclude many side effects.  I agree that pharmaceutical companies aren't honest and cannot be trusted in many aspects, but I would presume they would be honest when it comes to their medications interacting with other medications.  I mentioned calling the pharmaceutical company because a pharmacist told me to do so when I asked her whether Pentox interacts with another medication and pharmacists don't know everything about a certain medicine.  I don't know why you excluded pharmacists from pharmaceutical companies and physicians in your criticism as they can be just as guilty as the previous two as they have an interest in selling medication and making a profit.

Good points.

QuoteSide effects are always part of taking a medication. Funny you should mention Flomax - which many men have associated with the onset of their Peyronie's Disease - in comparison to Pentox, which some of us take to treat Peyronie's Disease.

Flomax could easily trigger Peyronie's due to interference with testosterone metabolism, yet that is not a listed side effect.

But you are right, any combination of drugs that potentially affect circulation could affect you adversely if you have a history of that happening


Quote from: snowydreams on April 20, 2010, 12:31:36 PMCan you give more information on the effect of Flomax on Peyronie's and its interference with testosterone metabolism as I took Flomax for 2 months and my Peyronie's began several months afterwards?  How exactly does it interfere with testosterone metabolism?  Can this interference be detected on blood tests?
Also, I would presume that most of those have Peyronie's have suffered an injury of some sort as mentioned by many on this forum.

Snowy, I would pay close attention to Tim on this because he is an MD and he pretty much knows what he is talking about.  Injuries, often very minor, do trigger Peyronie's, but many men injure their penises and NEVER get Peyronie's as a result.  Peyronie's requires not only an injury, but also some underlying metabolic anomaly that facilitates it.  What Tim is indicating here is that Flomax may well have been one of likely multiple factors that led to your contracting Peyronie's.  - George


Tim468

George thanks for your support, but I jumped the gun - I was thinking of finasteride, not flomax (two different medications used for BPH). It goes by the name of Proscar, but works by interfering with testosterone. Finasteride  is a synthetic anti-androgen  that acts by inhibiting type II 5-alpha reductase, the enzyme that converts testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT).

Flomax (tamsulosin) works by a mechanism of smooth muscle relaxation via alpha-adrenergic antagonism. I found two "case reports" of men developing Peyronies within a month of starting Flomax  (http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/flomax/peyronie%27s+disease) but I don't think those are hard data quality reports.

Tim
52, Peyronies Disease for 30 years, upward curve and some new lesions.

George999

Tim,  All I know is that taking any medicine or supplement carries risks.  I really suspect there are a lot of meds and even some supplements that can play a role in causing Peyronie's.  But NOT taking certain meds or supplements has its own risks.  Thus I believe there are meds and sups that can equally prevent Peyronie's and certainly we know of those that can alleviate the symptoms of Peyronie's.  But they in turn carry their own risks of causing other problems.  All of this has to be weighed by each individual.  Life has risks.  - George

ocelot556

I have to agree with snowy... I'm absolutely convinced that finasteride caused my peyronie's -- maybe I was always at risk to get it, but it happened during a two week period in which I took propecia. I am convinced that propecia didn't increase my changes to get injured but once I was already injured I could not heal as I otherwise properly would. That propecia modifies TGF-beta is not a cooincidence, I feel. But I've been taking Pentox for well over a year with no negative effects but the occasional upset stomach!

skunkworks

Quote from: ocelot556 on June 25, 2010, 04:17:09 AM
I have to agree with snowy... I'm absolutely convinced that finasteride caused my peyronie's --

That is nice and all, and I'm glad you're convinced, that means  a lot. However the simple fact of the matter is that finasteride has been on the market for quite a long time now, and zero connection has been made between Peyronie's and finasteride.  
This is an emotionally destructive condition, we all have it, let's be nice to each other.

Review of current treatment options by Levine and Sherer]

ComeBacKid

I've talked with George and Tim about pentox. We know that it downregulates the immune system or weakens it in a way while your on the medication.  My question is once your off the medication, does your immune system go back to full throttle and the strength it was before the medication?  I don't know we have addressed this question on the forum.  From what I've read online it appears that pentox will block certain parts of the immune system, but not all of it.  I'm concerned that staying on pentox for to long will permanently keep my immune system weak, or have it fail to "trigger" to come back on full throttle when I'm done with medication.

Comebackid

George999

From what I know about Pentox it is simply a drug that suppresses or modulates one small piece of a very complex human immune system.  Once you remove the Pentox and it gets out of your system, nothing should prevent an immediate return to normal.  This is precisely why your Peyronies tends to get active again once you take away the Pentox.  MOST immune system depressing drugs are like this.  Once you remove them, things return to where they were before.  Otherwise you could just take a few doses and that would be it.

Anything that causes a permanent change in the immune system is not suppressing or modulating it.  Its damaging it.  And other than *perhaps* a few draconian cancer drugs, I don't know of a whole lot of drugs that would do that.  Even the extremely powerful drug regimens that prevent organ rejection have to be maintained or the immune system kicks in and destroys the transplanted organ.  So I think there are a lot of myths circulating about risks that just don't exist.

The good thing is that Vitamin D fixes both problems (and other potential ones) at the same time IF you get your blood levels to a healthy point (perhaps I am talking to the wall here again).  Another thing that I would recommend for you is a good oral probiotic.  A lot of the bacteria that infects us systemically enters through the mouth and a good oral probiotic is a first line of defense against that.  There are also, of course, some fairly effective immune boosting supplements, but I would avoid those with the Peyronie's hanging over you.  - George

ocelot556

Sorry, skunkworks. You can be as snarky as you want about my theory, which I find funny as there really isn't a consensus reason as to the cause of Peyronie's Disease, but I'm entitled to my opinion. I'm sure people mocked the first questions about Vioxx, but it stayed on the market for years and many people took it with no problem.

Propecia inhibits the presence of dihydrotestosterone, a hormone that is necessary for the development and maintenance of the penis.

If I start a medicine and have an unintended consequence that seems to be in line with that medicine's method of action, it's not wrong to assume that the medicine played some role. I don't need a fact statement to be released by the FDA about what I felt my body go through. I'm not trying to rail on the drug, it's just my opinion that - for me - the lack of 5AR in my blood somehow triggered Peyronies Disease.

George999

Quote from: ocelot556 on July 07, 2010, 05:17:17 AM
Sorry, skunkworks. You can be as snarky as you want about my theory, which I find funny as there really isn't a consensus reason as to the cause of Peyronie's Disease, but I'm entitled to my opinion. I'm sure people mocked the first questions about Vioxx, but it stayed on the market for years and many people took it with no problem.

Propecia inhibits the presence of dihydrotestosterone, a hormone that is necessary for the development and maintenance of the penis.

If I start a medicine and have an unintended consequence that seems to be in line with that medicine's method of action, it's not wrong to assume that the medicine played some role. I don't need a fact statement to be released by the FDA about what I felt my body go through. I'm not trying to rail on the drug, it's just my opinion that - for me - the lack of 5AR in my blood somehow triggered Peyronies Disease.

Ocelot,  I really think this is a case where you are both right.  1) I think it is pretty clear that Propecia does  NOT cause Peyronie's.  A lot of guys use it and never get Peyronie's.  2) I think it is also very clear from the postings on this forum AND from the points you just noted above that Propecia (along with Beta Blockers and a whole lot of other stuff) is almost certainly ASSOCIATED with Peyronie's.  That would indicate to me that Procepia + Other Known or Unknown Factors DO cause Peyronie's.  In fact, I would go so far as to say that there is NO ONE CAUSE for Peyronie's and that most if not all Peyronie's cases are caused by a combination of factors which likely varies between individuals.  This is what makes it so hard to find an effective treatment since Peyronie's is not really a disease, but rather a collection of diseases which present identically in terms of symptoms as one disease.  Many other diseases such as Cancer are extremely challenging to treat for the same reason.  That is my view.  - George

abraxis

So, George.

My Peyronies developed after I scotch brands. Does that mean that scotch causes Peyronies Disease?

There is a reason why personal anecdotes are not medically acceptable.

George999

Quote from: abraxis on July 07, 2010, 06:32:57 PM
So, George.

My Peyronies developed after I scotch brands. Does that mean that scotch causes Peyronies Disease?

There is a reason why personal anecdotes are not medically acceptable.

If a lot of people are reporting that their illness, whatever it might be, occurs in conjunction with some other specific thing, that indicates a possible association.  Cause and association are two different things.  If you took the time to read my post, you would see that I was referring to association NOT cause.  Specific multiple associations may or may not constitute a cause.  But in the case of diseases like Peyronie's, multiple associations are much more likely to be a cause than some specific undiscovered factor.  Researchers typically look for a single cause for disease and that is one reason they are so unsuccessful at developing treatments for these types of diseases.  They are just beginning to catch hold of the idea that multiple genetic defects can act in conjunction to precipitate certain diseases when combined with certain environmental factors.  And this is exactly my point.  Associations don't always cause diseases, but the right associations in combination can.  And when this is proven, they are referred to as risk factors.  People in the medical profession like to rag on personal anecdotes, but believe me, if enough people contact the FDA about their anecdotal stories of reactions to a certain supplement or even medication, an investigation ensues.  One anecdotal story indeed is meaningless, but combined they tell as story.  AND actually if you read the side effect/risk information on some of these drugs like the ones I mentioned, you might actually just find Peyronie's on the list.  - George  

mike67

For George999 & Despise
Just scanning the January suppliments postings and saw Despise asking about a good fish oil . I use , for heart health , Ascenta NutraSea. I have spoken to them several times and am confident that it is as pure as pure can be.
It is pure fish oil ,sardines /anchovies /mackerel - bottled in Nova Scotia. I use the EPA 1500 MG / DHA 500 MG. They also offer a higher Omega 3 content product. Mine is $47.00 cdn. for 500 ml at Nutrition House. Dose is 1 tsp/5 ml daily.
Mikey

skunkworks

Quote from: ocelot556 on July 07, 2010, 05:17:17 AM
Sorry, skunkworks. You can be as snarky as you want about my theory, which I find funny as there really isn't a consensus reason as to the cause of Peyronie's Disease, but I'm entitled to my opinion. I'm sure people mocked the first questions about Vioxx, but it stayed on the market for years and many people took it with no problem.

Propecia inhibits the presence of dihydrotestosterone, a hormone that is necessary for the development and maintenance of the penis.

If I start a medicine and have an unintended consequence that seems to be in line with that medicine's method of action, it's not wrong to assume that the medicine played some role. I don't need a fact statement to be released by the FDA about what I felt my body go through. I'm not trying to rail on the drug, it's just my opinion that - for me - the lack of 5AR in my blood somehow triggered Peyronies Disease.

I'd have a lot more time for a theory like this if it didn't involve a drug that has been on the market for decades.

DHT is involved in the development of the penis most definitely, but do you have any evidence to show that it is involved in the maintenance?

The only way I could see finasteride being involved in a heightened risk of Peyronie's would be that it can lower libido and erection strength, and it has been suggested before that having sex with a less than fully erect penis can heighten the risk of injury.

My opinion obviously.  
This is an emotionally destructive condition, we all have it, let's be nice to each other.

Review of current treatment options by Levine and Sherer]

George999

Raw fish oil tends to harbor a sea of contaminants.  They range from various heavy metals to things like PCBs and dioxins.  Various vendors use a range of techniques to deal with this.  Some are highly successful and result in an ultra safe product, others are less so, and some fall on their face and result in a seriously unsafe product.  Best ways to tell are Consumer Labs or to order from a vendor KNOWN to take these issues seriously like Nordic Naturals or The Life Extension Foundation.  Remember, Fish Oil supplements are highly concentrated, so if the ingredient is contaminated, the resulting product can be bad news if those contaminants are not removed in the manufacturing process.  Beware of inexpensive fish oil products.  - George

Quote from: mike67 on July 09, 2010, 10:41:45 PM
For George999 & Despise
Just scanning the January suppliments postings and saw Despise asking about a good fish oil . I use , for heart health , Ascenta NutraSea. I have spoken to them several times and am confident that it is as pure as pure can be.
It is pure fish oil ,sardines /anchovies /mackerel - bottled in Nova Scotia. I use the EPA 1500 MG / DHA 500 MG. They also offer a higher Omega 3 content product. Mine is $47.00 cdn. for 500 ml at Nutrition House. Dose is 1 tsp/5 ml daily.