ORAL TREATMENTS - GENERAL - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements

[stogie_53]

Would natural anti-inflammatory supplements such as Turmeric (Circumin),fish oil,etc. be as effective as Pentox the drug,cheaper, and safer?  I just recently read that India has one of the lowest rates of Alzheimer's possibly because of their substantial use of curry (Turmeric/Circumin)which is a potent natural anti-inflammatory. It is also in yellow mustard I believe. Capsules are available with standardized extracts. Maybe using Turmeric, fish oil, and L-Arginine together would be a good combo? The recent article by Dr. Julian Whitaker (Health & Healing newsletter) on Alzheimer's prevention also said that Vitamin C and E significantly reduced the risk of Alzheimer's which they believe is mainly caused by inflammation and free radical oxidation.

[Hawk]

Would natural anti-inflammatory supplements such as Turmeric (Circumin),fish oil,etc. be as effective as Pentox the drug,cheaper, and safer?  

Stogie,, Good question.  These items may well be of benefit for Peyronies Disease patients for their anti-inflammatory properties but the benefit of pentox is not as an anti-inflammatory but because of two other actions.

1.  It increases circulation by actually changing the the shape and character of red blood cells allowing them to "squeeze into capillaries they may not have been able to enter before.

2.  Pentox mediates (reduces) Transforming Growth Factor B1 (TGF-B1) which seems to be a major component of Peyronies Disease progression.


ginkgo is probably the closest natural product for trying to accomplish some of the pentox action but there is far too little information available to conclude just how useful pentox is much less whether ginkgo is of benefit.


PS: Pentox is relatively inexpensive.

[George999]

Don't forget that Pentox actually has a other capabilities that range even beyond those added by hawk.  It is not just a matter of stopping inflammation, although that is most certainly helpful and there are a number of supplements that promote just that, including Circumin/Turmeric.  The root issue with Peyronies is the AGEing process.  This is, in fact, the source of the inflammation.  AGE components ARE irritants and they cause inflammation.  They are, in turn, produced by glycation wherein stray glucose aberrantly binds itself to protein such as collagen.  Here is an example of a reference that notes Pentox's ability to block the process of glycation:

1: Clin Chim Acta. 2000 Nov;301(1-2):65-77.Click here to read Links
   Evidence that pioglitazone, metformin and pentoxifylline are inhibitors of glycation.
   Rahbar S, Natarajan R, Yerneni K, Scott S, Gonzales N, Nadler JL.

   Department of Diabetes, Endocrinology and Metabolism, The Leslie and Susan Gonda (Goldschmied) Diabetes and Genetic Research Building, City of Hope National Medical Center, Duarte, CA 91010, USA. [email protected]

   Enhanced formation and accumulation of advanced glycation end products (AGEs) have been proposed to play a major role in the pathogenesis of diabetic complications, and atherosclerosis, leading to the development of a range of diabetic complications including nephropathy, retinopathy and neuropathy. Several potential drug candidates as AGE inhibitors have been reported recently. Aminoguanidine is the first drug extensively studied. However, there are no currently available medications known to block AGE formation. We have previously reported a number of novel and structurally diverse compounds as potent inhibitors of glycation and AGE formation. We have now studied several of the existing drugs, which are in therapeutic practice for lowering blood sugar or the treatment of peripheral vascular disease in diabetic patients, for possible inhibitory effects on glycation. We show that that three compounds; pioglitazone, metformin and pentoxifylline are also inhibitors of glycation.

   PMID: 11020463 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[George999]

There has been a lot of discussion here regarding TGF-beta-1.  In the case of Peyronies, we know it is beneficial to inhibit it.  But the real challenge is to move upstream.  TGF-beta-1 appears to be a product of the AGEing process:

1: Am J Pathol. 2004 Dec;165(6):2033-43.Click here to read Click here to read Links
   Advanced glycation end-products induce connective tissue growth factor-mediated renal fibrosis predominantly through transforming growth factor beta-independent pathway.
   Zhou G, Li C, Cai L.

   Department of Pathology, Jilin University, Changchun, People's Republic of China.

   Advanced glycation end-products (AGEs) play a critical role in diabetic nephropathy by stimulating extracellular matrix (ECM) synthesis. Connective tissue growth factor (CTGF) is a potent inducer of ECM synthesis and increases in the diabetic kidneys. To determine the critical role of CTGF in AGE-induced ECM accumulation leading to diabetic nephropathy, rats were given AGEs by intravenous injection for 6 weeks. AGE treatment induced a significant renal ECM accumulation, as shown by increases in periodic acid-Schiff-positive materials, fibronectin, and type IV collagen (Col IV) accumulation in glomeruli, and a mild renal dysfunction, as shown by increases in urinary volume and protein content. AGE treatment also caused significant increases in renal CTGF and transforming growth factor (TGF)-beta 1 mRNA and protein expression. Direct exposure of rat mesangial cells to AGEs in vitro significantly induced increases in fibronectin and Col IV production, which could be completely prevented by pretreatment with anti-CTGF antibody. AGE treatment also significantly increased both TGF-beta 1 and CTGF mRNA expression; however, inhibition of TGF-beta 1 mRNA expression by shRNA or neutralization of TGF-beta 1 protein by anti-TGF-beta 1 antibody did not significantly prevent AGE-increased expression of CTGF mRNA and protein. These results suggest that AGE-induced CTGF expression, predominantly through a TGF-beta 1-independent pathway, plays a critical role in renal ECM accumulation leading to diabetic nephropathy.

   PMID: 15579446 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Therefore it would seem to make sense to target the underlying AGEing process (with things like Pentoxifylline) and try to break existing AGEs (there are also substances known to do that) rather than wasting too much time focusing on downstream effects like TGF-beta-1 and inflammation.  We need to take in a larger section of the puzzle here or we are going to likely end up just tilting at windmills with marginal results.  If anyone here can point out where this logic is flawed, please speak up.  - George

[Tim468]

There is much I do not know about this topic, so I am glad you are teaching me. As diabetes is exploding in prevalence and incidence in this country (30-50 percent of all children born in the year 200 will develop diabetes!!!)(yes - think about that!), we would expect that Peyronie's Disease will also explode in numbers.

Clearly, Peyronies is also a disease related to aging (much more common in the 6th decade and beyond), and this suggests that apoptosis (programmed cell death) may also be going awry in this disease. Also, I noted that inhibition of TGF did not stop the AGE-related processes from happening, suggesting that other mechanisms underlie the fibrosis of that condition. Since we have scant evidence that blocking TGF will make Peyronies better (remember that we have SOME data - a few case reports, and some animal data), then it seems possible that AGE is unrelated to Peyronies and that only unless the AGE products are the only reason for the increased TGF activity, then blcking AGE products will not help.

But, I doubt if decreasing AGE products would hurt!

Tim

[George999]

Here are some references which link Peyronies to AGE:

In conditions such as aging and diabetes, excessive amounts of advanced glycation end products (AGEs) are formed and react with proteins, particularly collagen, and in diabetes their formation is greatly enhanced with rising hyperglycemia (16, 78, 79).  This leads to tighter collagen fibers because of age crosslinks that render collagen much more resistant to proteolysis by MMPs, and clinically this presents as tissue fibrosis and rigidity.

Here, Dr. Levine makes the connection between AGEs and Peyronies.  Note that AGEs occur in both Diabetics AND non-Diabetics, but the greater the serum glucose levels, the greater the rate of AGE creation.

This connection is also noted in "Peyronie's Disease: Advances in Basic Science and Pathophysiology" by Trinity J. Bivalacqua, BS, Sunil K. Purohit, MD, and Wayne J. G. Hellstrom, MD, FACS.

Another interesting study by the above authors discusses AGEs and NO:

Hyperglycemia is the defining characteristic of type 1 and 2 diabetes. Glucose is known to bind nonenzymatically to free amino acids on proteins or lipids. Through a series of oxidative and nonoxidative reactions, advanced glycation end products (AGEs) are formed irreversibly and accumulate in tissues over time, in particular endothelial and vascular smooth muscle cells (Singh et al, 2001). Although AGE formation occurs during the natural aging process, it is markedly increased in diabetes as a consequence of an increase in glucose (Jiaan et al, 1995). A common consequence of AGE formation is the pathologic cross-linking of collagen, which leads to vascular thickening with loss of elasticity, endothelial dysfunction, and ultimately atherosclerosis of the vascular tree.

AGEs are known to quench NO in vitro, and AGE formation is associated with accelerated superoxide anion formation (Vlassara, 2001). AGEs accumulate in endothelial and smooth muscle cells and cause sustained cellular activation of various proteins and generation of oxygen-derived free radicals. AGEs have been shown to affect eNOS by intracellular glycation of the enzyme at base pairs 599 to 602 and alteration of eNOS activity (Seftel et al, 1997). AGEs are increased in human diabetic cavernosal tissue when compared with controls, suggesting that AGE formation may be involved in the pathogenesis of diabetic endothelial and ED (Seftel et al, 1997). In animal models of diabetes, aminoguanidine (an inhibitor of AGEs) can improve in vitro endothelium-dependent cavernosal smooth muscle relaxation and in vivo erectile responses to cavernosal nerve stimulation by direct inhibition of AGE formation, down-regulation of its receptor galectin-3, and decreased collagen glycation in the STZ-diabetic penile vasculature (Cartledge et al, 2001a; Usta et al, in press). Moreover, aminoguanidine prevented the time-dependent progression of impaired erectile responses in STZ rats with diabetes (Usta et al, unpublished data). The effects of aminoguanidine on erectile physiology are difficult to interpret because this pharmacological compound is also an inhibitor of iNOS. Additionally, aminoguanidine may prevent diabetes-induced changes in the connective tissue composition of the microvascular wall of the arterioles supplying the penis, thus improving arterial inflow to the penis. Taken together, the deleterious of AGEs seem to be involved in the pathogenesis of endothelial dysfunction as it relates to diabetes.

There are also studies which demonstrate that AGEs occur and become more pronounced in non-diabetics as they grow older, thus, once again demonstrating that AGEs, while accelerated by diabetes, are not limited to being a problem only for diabetics.  It is known that Peyronies as occurs in diabetics is a direct result of AGEs.  I think it highly unlikely that Peyronies in non-diabetics is a result of a totally different process.  It is also known that AGEs are directly responsible for ED amongst diabetics which is another interesting link.

As a result of this information, I plan on including a number of supplements that are known to actually disassemble AGEs.  One, of course is ALC, which I have just tripled the dosage on.  I am also continuing to take NAC, but am not increasing the dose due to concerns about potential side effects.  Soon I will be adding the following: L-Carnosine and Benfotiamine-V.  There are just to many things linking AGEs and Peyronies to ignore the potential for exploiting that connection.  - George

[Hitman]

Beta-Alanine can help in that regards as well.

[George999]

Thanks Hitman, Good find!  I was completely unaware of beta-alanine and how it fits into the picture.  I discovered this blog that elucidates on the role of beta-alanine a bit.  I found it quite interesting:

http://ezinearticles.com/?Beta-Alanine-Boosts-Performance-and-Prevents-Aging&id=782758


Followup note:  Unfortunately Beta-Alanine does NOT work like L-Carnosine.  Do not attempt to substitute.  See post #1897. - George

[stogie_53]

If AGEing is largely dependent on diet and blood sugar control what about:

Apple Cider Vinegar: I have read (an article from Dr. Julian Whitaker---sorry I don't have it anymore) that taking some apple cider vinegar with a meal significantly helped lower blood sugar. Using a salad dressing of 50/50 ACV and Extra Virgin Olive Oil for example or mixed in water, etc..

QUICK AND EASY 5 BEAN SALAD:
1 can black beans
1 can kidney beans
1 can pinto beans
1 can garbanzo beans
1 pkg. frozen lima beans
1 medium size yellow or white onion
1 red bell pepper
1/2 cup extra virgin olive oil
1/2 cup organic apple cider vinegar (Bragg's brand is good)
1 handful rinsed, chopped cilantro
3 packets of Stevia powdered sweetener

   Rinse, drain, and combine all of the beans in a large Tupperware container. In a food processor, add the peeled, quartered onion and seeded, quartered red pepper and cilantro. Pulse until the onion, pepper, and cilantro are chopped to desired size. Remove the ingredients from the food processor and combine with the beans. In a measuring cup, add 1/2 cup oil, 1/2 cup vinegar, and 3 packs of Stevia and stir. Pour this mixture over the beans and stir well. It is now ready to serve or cover, refrigerate, and serve chilled. It is the best if eaten within a few days.  A variety of beans may be substituted. This bean salad is excellent on a bed of greens, or in a pita with cherry tomatoes. It is easy and quick to make, very colorful, and tastes great. Using the Stevia as the sweetener it should be safe for diabetics. (This salad has anti-depressive tryptophan (beans), high potassium (blood pressure/cardiovascular health),quercetin in onions (see benefits by searching at www.lef.org),cilantro (detoxifier)hhtp://www.teeccino.com/ArticleDetails.aspx?ArticleID=5 , ACV, and healthy fat (olive oil which lowers blood pressure,etc.),fiber, and complex carbs.)

Juiced Barley Powders If one does a search for the top products on the market there are some reports of people with diabetes who claim impressive results. I realize these are pretty expensive but by shopping and comparing prices this may be worth a try. (I don't sell this but it looks like this type of product may be good for Peyronies?)

Diet Check out the book Eat to Live by Dr. Fuhrman (hhtp://www.drfuhrman.com) and The China Study by Dr. Campbell I believe. Going more vegetarian as explained in these books can eliminate diabetes? (I don't sell any of these books but it looks like it would help for Peyronies and general health with blood sugar and AGEing in particular?) Also in the book Eat to Live Dr. Fuhrman explains that the different types of fats are either inflammatory or anti-inflammatory. Omega 3's (fish,walnuts,flax,etc.) are "anti-" but corn,soy (Omega 6's) promote inflammation. Therefore it is important to get more Omega 3's relative to the 6's. Also the best oil for high temp cooking is coconut oil (medium chain triglycerides) and use unheated olive oil (Omega 9's ?) for salads and pastas (Greek Mediterranean diet---Dr. Sinatra). Dr. Sinatra has a chef who writes for his newsletter that has studied foods to see which ones promote inflammation and which ones do not and she wrote a book about it. I have read that wild caught deep sea salmon eats algae which gives it the Omega 3's (anti-inflammatory) and turns the flesh pink but farm-raised salmon is grain fed, the flesh is artificially colored pink with chemicals or carbon monoxide ("tailpipe salmon") and does not contain the Omega 3's causing inflammation in our bodies. 90% of salmon on the market is farm raised they claimed. Look for the words "wild caught" when buying salmon. Also the website hhtp://www.nutritiondata.com lists inflammation ratings for foods.

Vitamin K hhtp://www.lef.org has a lot of info on vitamin k which is responsible for where calcium is deposited in your body and has a tie with blood sugar. I have heard low fat Gouda cheese is a good dietary source. Check out: hhtp://search.lef.org/cgi-src-bin/MsmGo.exe?grab_id=0&page_id=585&query=vitamin%20k&hiword=VITAM%20VITAMER%20VITAMERS%20VITAMI%20VITAMINA%20VITAMINAS%20VITAMINC%20VITAMIND%20VITAMINE%20VITAMINEN%20VITAMINES%20VITAMINIC%20VITAMINK%20VITAMINS%20k%20vitamin%20

More:

hhtp://drwhitaker.com/MainSite/HealthCenter.aspx?HealthCenter=JWHH_HC%20Blood%20Sugar%20Health

hhtp://alphaomegafood.com/testimonies.htm#diabetes

hhtp://www.hacres.com

Diabetes millitus response to 10 grams ascorbic acid by mouth.
Over the past 17 years we have studied the effect of 10 grams by mouth, in patients with diabetes mellitus. We found that every diabetic not taking supplemental vitamin C could be classified as having sub-clinical scurvey. For this reason they find it difficult to heal wounds. The diabetic patient will use the supplemental vitamin C for better utilization of his insulin. It will assist the liver in the metabolism of carbohydrates and to re-instate his body to heal wounds like normal individuals. We found that 60% of all diabetics could be controlled with diet and 10 grams ascorbic acid daily. The other 40% will need much less needle insulin and less oral medication. Contrary to what Medical News Letter, (Vol. 12 # 26, Dec. 25 1970) carried to the physicians the Tes-Tape is accurate in testing urine samples.
hhtp://www.nutri.com/wn/klenner.html

hhtp://fatresistancediet.com/chapters/fat-resistance/breakthrough-science.htm"

hhtp://www.cforyourself.com

hhtp://www.doctoryourself.com
hhtp://www.doctoryourself.com/depression.html

hhtp://www.drsinatra.com

hhtp://www.drwhitaker.com

hhtp://www.drday.com

hhtp://www.teeccino.com/articles.aspx

hhtp://www.dr-rath.com
(Dr. Rath worked with the late Linus Pauling on artery health and supporting supplements)

hhtp://www.dr-rath.com/us/products/arteriforte.html
(Note where he mentions about the amino acids L-Lysine and L-Proline preventing plaque from sticking to arteries...I have read in Dr. Julian Whitaker's newsletter (in the year 1992?) an article about vitamin C (and lipo-protein A the sticky cholesterol) where the vitamin C also prevents plaque from sticking to arteries.


Commercial links disabled by Administrator for link spamming - Hawk

[Hawk]

George I find this to be an interesting topic although I have to admit to guarding my enthusiasm.  I am wondering if you have done any reading on the impact of chromium picolinate in this process.  I is commonly connected with the metabolism of sugars and insulin sensitivity.

I recently read that it was connected with some negative impact on the body as well (chromosome damage in animal models).

[George999]

I am wondering if you have done any reading on the impact of chromium picolinate in this process.  I is commonly connected with the metabolism of sugars and insulin sensitivity.

I take it.  But the problem with chromium picolinate, in my opinion, is similar to the problem with zinc.  It does have toxicity in excessive amounts (which a lot of people are not aware of), and because it is so good for the problem, a lot of combination products, including daily multis, pack in the full dose.  This means that if you are taking it as a supplement and taking combo products, you need to be cautious.  I ran into problems with this issue with zinc.  I got a bad reaction and then realized I was getting my zinc in two different places and OD'ing.  So I prefer to take conservative doses of different products to achieve the same goal.  But chromium picolinate is definitely a staple in glucose management.  There are really quite a few good products in this regard.  Banaba is an interesting approach that I plan on trying soon.

If AGEing is largely dependent on diet and blood sugar control what about:

 Also stogie has mentioned some interesting ones below that are actually more on the order of functional foods.  Apple cider vinegar for example.  I use balsamic vinegar all the time, but I am really thinking that I should change that to apple cider vinegar and get the added benefit.  And I don't know about Juiced Barley Powders, but I know there is research out there that indicates that MBE (Malted Barley Extract) like they use for beer does seem to lower blood sugar.  And for sure fruits and vegetables are healthy, healthy, healthy.  Incidentally, fruit does not run blood sugar levels up like stuff with refined sweeteners do, but as Hawk warned before, it is always important to read the labels because a lot of refined sweeteners get added to supposedly "healthy" fruit products.  Vitamin K is good also and probably most people don't get enough.  Multis NEVER include it for some strange reason.  I take some K2.  Yet another interesting functional food in this regard is cinnamon.  It is also available in supplement form.  Aloe Vera has also been shown to lower blood sugar.

This whole glucose cycle is just so pernicious.  Its a classic biological loop.  The more fat one carries on the inside, the higher their blood sugar will be, and the higher ones blood sugar, the more prone one is to add to this fat store.  But there are key foods and supplements that can enable one to break that cycle.  And that has to be the point, to break the cycle and, in most cases, regain a healthy fat ratio.  I am 6 ft tall with an average body shape and my weight a couple of years ago was 195 lbs.  My doc thought that was just fine.  But actually when you do the calculations, its downright obese.  Now, having come to grips with that I've got my weight down to 155.  That is still too much. I don't have a whole lot of muscle at this point and should probably be down around 135 to 140 range.  I am sure that this would reduce my blood sugar levels even more.  I realize that this does not apply to everyone reading this forum, but I would imagine that it does apply to many.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Body_mass_index_chart.svg  - George

[bodoo2u]

Can anyone tell me if the arginine I plan to take for Peyronies Disease has to be the "L" variety, or is all of it the "L" variety?

On another note, George, the weight loss you are trying to achieve is way to low for a man your height. I personally think the BMI calculator is a bunch of bunk. It's a ploy by the insurance industry to make it easier for them to label us "obese" and charge us a bunch of money for insurance.

[George999]

Here is an interesting article discussing biological oxidation and glycation, how they interact, and how to slow them down:

Antioxidants protect proteins against oxidative damage caused by free radicals, but not against equally damaging sugars. ... While antioxidants close the front door to oxidation, they leave open the back door to glycation, and the side door to metal toxicity. Antioxidants are simply not cut out to block the many biochemical pathways that damage proteins.

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2002/feb2002_awsi_01.html

And here is more:

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2005/feb2005_report_mitochon_02.htm

These give a broader picture of oxidation/nitration and glycation and the issues surrounding those processes.

Here is another fascinating overview of the underlying process and the challenges it presents:

http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/rej.2006.9.274

[Hawk]

I am frankly disturbed by the recent disregard for our PEYRONIES DISEASE forum.  

The nicest way I know how to say this is that I don't give a rat's rear-end if vitamin C does or does not save people from snake bite, if it prevents hoof rot in race horses, or if it causes or cures cataracts, or grows a third eye.  THIS IS A PEYRONIES DISEASE forum.  We have provided an "Off Topic" area for things not DIRECTLY related to Peyronies Disease.  USE IT!

To Stogie: I have tried the subtle approach to no avail.  I recommend that you read the forum rules under "Read This First", and that you specifically read the warning (#9) about spamming this forum.  You have plastered and spammed this forum with about 100 links in just 10 posts over a 3 day period.  If I see another link for "doctor yourself " your posting rights will be temporarily suspended.  After twelve thousand posts and fourteen hundred members over three years, you have become part of an exclusive group of about 4 members that have received an official warning.

I will decide how to deal with all of these links, and where to place all of these posts tomorrow.  My gut response is that any post that does not directly address a study or strong evidence of relevance in treating Peyronies Disease will be moved to the "Off Topic" area.  Since search engines cannot crawl or index that area, that will render any links in those posts non-existent as far as search engines are concerned.

If the posts remain in the main forum, the links will be disabled with an edit note appended to the end of the post.  

These posts may just be deleted with a note that the poster can do the work of reposting them where they belong rather than pushing the added work of moving them off on me or the moderators.

[George999]

Now that I am able to discontinue some of the supplements I was previously taking to prevent urinary tract infections, I am able to explore some new supplements to attempt to go after Peyronies.  One of those is Benfotiamine.  Since I believe that the pathways that are implicated in Peyronies are similar to those that affect diabetes sufferers, I would like to have a way to simply block those pathways.  The answer, I believe, might be Benfotiamine.  Note these studies:

Vitamin B1 blocks damage caused by hyperglycemia.
Obrenovich ME, Monnier VM.

Department of Pathology at Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH 44106, USA. [email protected]

Diabetes accelerates the aging process and leads to complications that include blindness, renal failure, nerve damage, stroke, and cardiovascular disease. It has been hypothesized that high plasma glucose concentrations are responsible for increased mitochondrial free radical production and subsequent inactivation of glyceraldehyde phosphate dehydrogenase (GAPDH) in vascular endothelial cells and other cells implicated in these complications. As a result of the decreased ability of GAPDH to process upstream metabolites, three pathways of metabolic damage are activated, which include the advanced glycation end-product formation pathway, the protein kinase C pathway, and the hexosamine pathway. All three pathways have been implicated in abnormal cell signaling in diabetes. A group of German and U.S. scientists has now found that treating diabetic rats with high doses of benfotiamine, a lipid-soluble form of vitamin B1, can prevent diabetic retinopathy and all three forms of metabolic damage by stimulating transketolase activity and thus diverting excess metabolites toward the pentose pathway. Although vitamin B1 is available over the counter, the researchers at this time do not advocate self-treatment without further clinical data.

PMID: 12844520 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=12844520&ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus

Benfotiamine blocks three major pathways of hyperglycemic damage and prevents experimental diabetic retinopathy.
Hammes HP, Du X, Edelstein D, Taguchi T, Matsumura T, Ju Q, Lin J, Bierhaus A, Nawroth P, Hannak D, Neumaier M, Bergfeld R, Giardino I, Brownlee M.

Medical Clinic V, School of Clinical Medicine, Mannheim, Germany.

Three of the major biochemical pathways implicated in the pathogenesis of hyperglycemia induced vascular damage (the hexosamine pathway, the advanced glycation end product (AGE) formation pathway and the diacylglycerol (DAG)-protein kinase C (PKC) pathway) are activated by increased availability of the glycolytic metabolites glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate and fructose-6-phosphate. We have discovered that the lipid-soluble thiamine derivative benfotiamine can inhibit these three pathways, as well as hyperglycemia-associated NF-kappaB activation, by activating the pentose phosphate pathway enzyme transketolase, which converts glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate and fructose-6-phosphate into pentose-5-phosphates and other sugars. In retinas of diabetic animals, benfotiamine treatment inhibited these three pathways and NF-kappaB activation by activating transketolase, and also prevented experimental diabetic retinopathy. The ability of benfotiamine to inhibit three major pathways simultaneously might be clinically useful in preventing the development and progression of diabetic complications.

PMID: 12592403 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=12592403&dopt=AbstractPlus

Prevention of incipient diabetic nephropathy by high-dose thiamine and benfotiamine.
   Babaei-Jadidi R, Karachalias N, Ahmed N, Battah S, Thornalley PJ.

   Department of Biological Sciences, University of Essex, Central Campus, Wivenhoe Park, Colchester, Essex, UK.

   Accumulation of triosephosphates arising from high cytosolic glucose concentrations in hyperglycemia is the trigger for biochemical dysfunction leading to the development of diabetic nephropathy-a common complication of diabetes associated with a high risk of cardiovascular disease and mortality. Here we report that stimulation of the reductive pentosephosphate pathway by high-dose therapy with thiamine and the thiamine monophosphate derivative benfotiamine countered the accumulation of triosephosphates in experimental diabetes and inhibited the development of incipient nephropathy. High-dose thiamine and benfotiamine therapy increased transketolase expression in renal glomeruli, increased the conversion of triosephosphates to ribose-5-phosphate, and strongly inhibited the development of microalbuminuria. This was associated with decreased activation of protein kinase C and decreased protein glycation and oxidative stress-three major pathways of biochemical dysfunction in hyperglycemia. Benfotiamine also inhibited diabetes-induced hyperfiltration. This was achieved without change in elevated plasma glucose concentration and glycated hemoglobin in the diabetic state. High-dose thiamine and benfotiamine therapy is a potential novel strategy for the prevention of clinical diabetic nephropathy.

   PMID: 12882930 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=12882930&ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus

I could go on.  Research seems to show that Benfotiamine is a powerful drug that halts glycation and other damaging processes that precipitate a number of fibrotic diseases.  IF this is indeed true, taking Benfotiamine could very well allow normal collagen and elastin turnover to gradually repair the damage caused by detrimental glucose mediated processes.  I would submit that this is just one additional oral supplement that holds promise in the battle against Peyronies.  And, I for one, plan to find out what it can do for me.  - George

[George999]

If you think that AGE/ALE formation is not a concern because your blood sugar levels are normal, you are mistaken. It is well know that circulating levels of Hb AIc - the product of the non-enzymatic glycation of hemoglobin with glucose - is normally roughly 4% of total hemoglobin. This level is 3-5 times higher in diabetics, but 4% is clearly a concern. If 4% of our weight is constituted of damaged tissue, it means that the average man carries 7lbs of dead weight, in this case comprised of harmful compounds that impede tissue function,   stimulate inflammation, promote cellular dysfunction and lead to genetic mayhem. ... It has been said that life is the prevalence of the biological over the chemical. Glycation is the perfect example; it is a spontaneous, chemical and detrimental reaction occurring in our body without the control of enzymes. Our body's response to it is to trap reactive sugar molecules and prevent the permanent glycation of  proteins. Pyridoxamine and Benfotiamine feed those reactions and offer protection against tissue damage associated with AGE/ALE formation in the body. They are a useful ally in the treatment and prevention of a wide range of conditions including diabetes, atherosclerosis, renal failure, inflammation and neurodegeneration. Finally and perhaps above all, they lead the way as new anti-aging therapies.

http://www.aor.ca/int/magazines/pdf/Vol3%20Issue1%20Pyridoxamine%20&%20Benfotiamine.pdf

[Hawk]

You make some good posts dealing with controlling AGE and good posts explaining the AGE process.  What is still missing is any convincing information that it matters.  Perfectly controlling or eliminating AGE may have NO impact Peyronies Disease.

That it would seem, is square one.

I can spend a life time (assuming I had funding and the training) on researching how to control any physiological process only to find out it had no impact whatsoever on the disease I was attempting to combat.

[George999]

Hawk, As I understand Peyronies, it is all about the tight crosslinking of collagen that causes the tissue in question to lose its elasticity.  AGE are what cause tight crosslinking of collagen.  Are you suggesting that their may be some other "unknown" process by which this may occur?  I note that Dr. Levine refers to exactly this process in his book about Peyronies and other papers also attribute Peyronies to AGE.  What research are you aware of that would attribute the crosslinking involved in Peyronies to another process?  Also, Peyronies in diabetics has been linked to AGE.  Are you suggesting that Peyronies in diabetics results from a different process than Peyronies in non-diabetics?  Also, AGE has been extensively linked to other types of fibrosis and identified as its direct cause.  I would suggest that there is abundant evidence to implicate AGE in Peyronies.  - George

Here is an excerpt from a paper linking AGE and ED in diabetics and the description it contains certainly sounds like it could easily encompass Peyronies:

Abnormalities in the vascular, neural, endocrine, muscular, or psychiatric systems can result in ED.2,3 EDDM is due to multisystemic disease. Atrophy or apoptosis of cavernosal smooth muscle can occur due to loss of Bcl-2 expression in cavernosal smooth muscle and lead to ED. Abnormal amounts of advanced glycation end products is a common occurrence. These chemicals may have an effect on potassium channels that facilitate intracellular calcium release and subsequent cavernosal smooth muscle relaxation. Connective tissue synthesis is increased due to transforming growth factor-beta. The decrease in smooth muscle and the increase in collagen decreases the compliance of the erectile tissue. Neuropathic damage to both the somatic and autonomic nerves has been clearly defined in DM. Partial occlusion of the pelvic or intracavernosal arteries, hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, and depression associated with a chronic illness (DM) can all play a primary or secondary role in the development of EDDM. On a molecular level, studies have demonstrated decreased levels of endothelial and neuronal nitric acid synthase (NS) and decreased cavernosal artery and sinusoidal response to nitric oxide. Abnormalities in nitric oxide rapidly render the functional syncytium of the corpora cavernosa unable to synchronously relax. As the patient with diabetes ages, the concentration of constrictors, including endothelin, prostanoids, and possibly angiotensin, increases as the production of the relaxants, including nitric oxide, vasointestinal peptide, and prostacyclin, decreases.

http://www.ajmc.com/Article.cfm?Menu=1&ID=2526

Also note that Synvista has a product in the pipeline that is an "AGE-breaker" (http://www.alteon.com/cross1.htm).  Note that the patent on THAT drug states:

Fibrotic diseases further include diseases that have as a manifestation fibrotic disease of the penis, including Peyronie's disease (fibrosis of the cavernous sheaths leading to contracture of the investing fascia of the corpora, resulting in a deviated and painful erection). Treatment using the invention is expected to treat, prevent, reduce or ameliorate such diseases, or hypertrophy, fibrotic hypertrophy or fibrosis in such diseases.

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6596745-description.html

Here is a company that has invested significant R+D money on a product that addresses Peyronies via the AGE process.  I am not making this up out of my head.  There is a connection between AGE and Peyronies.

[pal-31]

Hi all,

Have a quick question. I have been feeling dizzy or light headed sometimes during the day. Not too bad, but enough to make me stop and think.

I am taking Pentox 400 x 2 daily, Vit E 400 x 2 daily, 2 x capsules of VasoFlow,  1 gram of ALC twice daily.

I read here somewhere that Vitamin could make you dizzy. Is this correct? or may be some thing else in these supplements. I have stopped Vit E today just to see if it makes a difference.

Otherwise, I will check with my dr.

Thanks in advance
Pal

[George999]

I hope you are checking your blood pressure.  Light headed dizzy feelings can happen with low blood pressure.  If that were the case, the most likely culprit would be the VasoFlow since it can lower blood pressure in cases were blood pressure tends to be low in the first place.  - George

[pal-31]

George,

I am not checking blood pressure at home but whenever I go to Dr. they tell me it is perfect. Could the vasoflow I take before breakfast and before dinner be the culprit ?

I could stop that for a while too

Thanks,
Pal

[George999]

My thought on the VasoFlow was that it could be lowering your blood pressure enough to cause the dizziness, but if your bp is perfect, then I don't know???  I guess see if stopping the E for a while helps, then try stopping each one.  But on the other hand, it might not be a supplement that is causing this at all.  It could even be a virus, they definitely CAN cause these kinds of problems.  It might be a good idea to let your doctor know what is going on.  You might try using Google with each one of these supplements to see if you get any hits on "dizziness".  None of these supps sound like they should cause this kind of problem to me, but who knows?  - George

Update ... I just found this with a quick Google search:

Pentoxifylline may cause dizziness or blurred vision. These effects may be worse if you take it with alcohol or certain medicines. Use Pentoxifylline with caution. Do not drive or perform other possibly unsafe tasks until you know how you react to it.

http://www.drugs.com/cdi/pentoxifylline.html

[pal-31]

George,

Thanks for the info. It could be the just the combination of Pentox with the other supplements. Who knows. I will try and check it out with my Dr. to be on the safe side and may also stop one suplement at a time to see.

Thanks again,
Pal

[Skip]

I have Peyronies Disease my urologist confirmed it.    Looks like I had it for 3 months or so. Like most urologist he told me to take vitamin E and wait for 6 months to see if it well go away on it own. I am 44 years old.

I still can have hard-on but sometimes they are not as hard as they use to be. The penis is curved upward around 20 degrees. Have some pain. Understand there is no cure.

Been reading this forum for the last 2 night's lots of info.


Want to start taking more than just vitamin E. looks like everybody has their own remedy

If anybody can give me guidance on what to take and how much, and were I can buy it online. I know lots a people will say just search the forum, but like I said read the forum for 6 hours; I am more confused then ever. Thanks in advance.

[jackp]

Skip
Vitamin E:
I took it for years following my diagnosis with Peyronies. I took 400 IU 3 times a day. Store brand worked just as well as name brands. This was the advise of my Dr. at the time.
I took it for about 12 years until I had to have stints put in my heart and went on Plavix. Heart Dr said to quit the Vitamin E while on Plavix and I will be on it for life.
My initial treatment for Peyronies was Vitamin E 400 IU three times a day an potaba. Curve self corrected in about a year.
Jackp

[Tim468]

Hang in there Skip. it's easier to keep up than it is to catch up.

I tend to think that a "broad spectrum" vitamin E is worth getting. The best way to search the forum for links might be to key in multiple terms in the search engine. You can put an entire phrase in quotes (ie "vitamin E") and other terms and only posts with all of the terms will pop up. Doing that with the word "Source" I found this post by George (remember that when you follow a link, you can then search the opened webpage using "Control-F" for key words too):

***************
I am getting queries as to where to obtain the best grade of Vitamin E to deal with Peyronies.  So I am going to attempt some suggestions in the form of links (and please don't take the order of the links as a ranking, I am NOT recommending one of these products above another):

From GNC:
http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2133477&

From Vitamin Shoppe:
http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/browse/sku_detail.jsp?id=SO-1759
http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/browse/sku_detail.jsp?id=KA-1756

From iHerb.com:
http://www.iherb.com/store/ProductDetails.aspx?c=Herbs&pid=NOW-00811

From Natural Supplement Center:
http://store.nationalsupplementcenter.com/mf20011.html

From Nutrition Surplus:
http://www.nutritionsurplus.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/Shopping.ProductDetails/productid/17745.html

All of these SEEM to be good products.  Some of these vendors have retail outlets in addition to their web stores.  This is by no means an exhaustive list.  In the past I have used the NeoMedica product available from Nutrition Surplus.  I am now using the NOW Foods product from iHerb.

- George
******************************

Not too hard once you try it out. It's figuring out what to look for that takes more time!

Tim

[Kimo]

I was on the vita-E for a few years, 400iu twice a day,,,i started having the dizzy spells a lot and didn't know why until i read about it being a blood thinner,so i stopped taking it and my dizzy spells went away....

This is just my 2 cents worth,,,,,,kimo

[pal-31]

Kimo,

Thanks for the info. How long after you stopped the Vit E did the dizzy spells stop ?

Pal

[Hawk]

Pal,

Clearly any of these, or a combination of these, or none of these supplements that is causing the problem.  Only the systematic process of elimination will tell you.  Eliminate them one at a time.  If it continues then resume that one and eliminate another.  If these are serious near fainting or falling type of dizziness, go to a doctor.  I would also buy a BP cuff to check your BP when you are dizzy to see if it is BP related at all as opposed to inner ear issues.  

I am in fairly good shape and I had a bout of dizziness or balance issues for about a 2 week period when I was on no supplements and it just went away so there is no way to just guess.  

If it is a supplement, it is a crap shoot but I bet on L-Arginine

[Skip]

Thanks you guys for replying so fast to my question. I am taking vitamin E 2 time a day 1 in the morning 1000iu and in the evening 400iu.

Jackp you mentioned that you were taking 3 times a day of 400 IU, I think I will do the same from now on.

Tim thanks on the info were to buy the vitamins.

Should I be taking anything else?  

Thanks again to everybody for the help.

[George999]

Peyronies is a disease that effects collagen and elastin in the penis.  Collagen and elastin are proteins that are part of the extra-cellular matrix that forms the scaffolding for the living tissue.  There are three distinct processes that damage this scaffolding by modifying these proteins in a detrimental way, either taking something away from their structure or adding something to it.  These are 1) Oxidation, 2) Nitration, and 3) Glycation.  Standard Vitamin E blocks oxidation by becoming oxidized itself, thus scavenging the free radical before it can damage tissue.  Full spectrum Vitamin E not only blocks oxidation, but the gamma-tocopherol it contains also blocks nitration by scavenging nitrogen free radicals.  But if one cannot tolerate Vitamin E, this is not a problem since other supplements offer the same capabilities.   My approach is to take small amounts of multiple supplements that limit the above three processes.  This is one facet of attacking Peyronies:  Attempting to limit oxidation, nitration and glycation.  There are, of course, other strategies which are unrelated to these particular vectors.  - George

[Kimo]

Pal,,,,If i remember right it was about 4 to 5 weeks before all my dizzy spells went away....I haven't had any since, been about a yr...I'm sure thats what it was for me  as i wasn't taking anything else...I was on the Vita-E for about 8 yrs total.

This is just my opinion,,,,,,kimo

[George999]

Kimo, your sharing this about Vitamin E is just one more little indicator as to the huge value of this forum.  I never, ever would have guessed that Vitamin E could do this even in my most wild imagination.  But your sharing your experience may well save pal a lot of trouble and confusion.  And this thing about Vitamin E and dizziness is good for all of us to be aware of for future reference.  Thanks so much for sharing!  - George

[pal-31]

Kimo and George,

Thanks for all the help !

I am now thinking that I would need to stop the Vitamin E for a while. I have been on it for years. However, I would not want the Peyronies Disease situation to get worse. Eventhough it has not gotten better all this time on the E.

May be I can substitute something else for it.

Thanks again,
Pal

[pal-31]

Thanks Hawk,

I think the process of elemenation is the way to go.

Pal

[George999]

For a long time now I have been beating the drums for fish oil, flax oil, and other omega-3 rich products because of their potential impact on lowering systemic inflammation.  But it gets even better.  Turns out that omega-3's can potentially bust Alzheimers plaques.  Could it be that they might work similarly against Peyronies plaques?

Publishing in the Dec. 26 issue of the Journal of Neuroscience, the scientists demonstrated that the omega-3 fatty acid docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) increases the production of LR11, a protein that is found at reduced levels in Alzheimer's patients. LR11 is known to destroy the protein that forms the plaques associated with the disease, the researchers explained.

http://www.healthday.com/Article.asp?AID=611297

With each new research report more and more of the pieces of the puzzle fall together in terms of how what we eat and drink (or neglect to eat or drink) can radically affect our health.

[Hawk]

Pal,

One more thing.  If the dizziness stops after discontinuing a substance, you have to restart the substance to KNOW if that was the problem.  For instance, in Kimo's case, it could be like my case where something just cleared up and it happened to take place 5 weeks after stopping vitamin E.  My actual testing on the blood thinning results of vitamin indicate that for me, all blood thinning results of vitamin E are out of the body much sooner than that.

We know that just because an action precedes a result does not mean that it caused the result.

[bodoo2u]

Hawk,

Are you saying that I might be doing myself harm by using L-Arginine instead of a different variety. I'm not sure which section contained the info I'm referring to, but I'm almost sure you said plain L-Arginine would cause collagen. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

[George999]

Back in post #1864 in this thread, I commented on how L-Carnosine has been shown to block glycation, and in doing so, block the process of fibrosis.  It is believed that L-Carnosine is broken down in the gut into Beta-Alanine and L-Histadine.  Therefore, some have theorized that a better approach would be to supplement with Beta-Alanine instead of L-Carnosine.  Hitman brought this up in post #1865 and I saw no flaws in that logic and in fact discovered a blog presenting exactly that concept in relation to glycation and posted the link in post #1866.  However, I now discover that some enterprising Russian researchers have actually done a research project looking at this very issue and their conclusions are mind boggling:

Moreover, A. Hipkiss describes in this volume how carnosine, being a potent antiglycating agent, may suppress the deleterious effects of protein carbonyls by reacting with them to form adducts, which may either prevent their interaction with scavenging AGE (Advanced Glycated End Products) "receptors" (RAGES), or alter the cellular response by modulating signal transduction and subsequent generation of ROS.

It is known that carnosine is metabolized into beta-alanine and L-histidine and as they are both biologically active molecules, they could have played some role in the anti-senescence effect of carnosine in SAM. However, according to data obtained in our experiments we observed no effect of these compounds on the mean lifespan when animals were treated with the mixture of beta-alanine and L-histidine, taken in the same molar proportion as they are in carnosine (figure). This treatment also had no influence on the exterior of the animals, unlike the effect carnosine produced. Analysis of these data shows that carnosine acts as a true antioxidant protector rather than as an anabolic drug; the weight of the animals treated with carnosine was not significantly different from that of the control animals (table).

Anyway, the question "How could such a small molecule have such profound effects?" remains unanswered, though we hope through increased global scientific collaboration that we shall have the answers sooner rather than later.

The authors are particularly grateful to Professor A. Boldyrev who has supervised this entire anti-senescence project and devoted much time and energy to it. We are also grateful to all the staff of Moscow State University and the Institute of Neurology (Russian Academy Medical Sciences, Moscow) who worked on this project. Steven Gallant wishes to personally thank Paul Michaels for his help and encouragement at the beginning of the project. We are further grateful to all those who took part in this project but are too numerous to name.

The study was supported by the Russian Foundation for Basic Research (grant No. 00-04-48767).

http://protein.bio.msu.ru/biokhimiya/contents/v65/full/65071018.html

So DON'T attempt to substitute Beta Alanine for L-Carnosine.  I not only won't be more effective, it won't be effective at all.  Of the two, only L-Carnosine has true anti-glycation capabilities.  - George

[Hitman]

has anybody looked into Pyridoxamine. I do believe it can help with AGE

http://www.nature.com/ki/journal/v70/n3/abs/5001578a.html

[George999]

Pyridoxamine is a modified form of one of the B Vitamins and it has shown promise in treating some forms of fibrosis.  I am planning to order it with my next supplement order in January and put it to the test.  - George

[Hawk]

This may be simplistic, but to anyone that does strive for a diet with a low glycemic index, there is only one added sweetener I recommend - Stevia Plus.  It not only does a great job sweetening (4X the sweetening of cane sugar), but it is zero on the glycemic index.  On top of that the "plus" part is that it has a prebiotic additive that promotes healthy intestinal bacteria.

This stuff makes it easy to buy stuff like plain unsweetened yogart, juices, etc and sweeten them yourself. This makes it easier to avoid sugars and artificial sweeteners. There is no need to ever add sugar or artificial sweeteners to your food.  There may be other good products.  I have seen sweeteners for diabetics on the shelf that I know little about but Stevia (a natural plant substance) is great even if a little pricey.  Remember it is both healthy and 4 times sweeter than sugar when you consider the price.  

PS: You can find this is most any health food store

[Kimo]

Hawk,,,,you say [ prebiotic ],,,,do you mean probiotic ? I take a probiotic and fish oil twice a day for my intestinal problems caused from the parasite damage i got 2 yrs ago,,,,the probiotic helps me to be able to live without pain....The probiotic brand that i use comes from a company called
Garden of Life and the name on the bottle is called Primal Defense....It's not cheap,,but much cheaper to get it off the internet....It's been a life saver for me, i was in so much pain for 2 yrs until i started using this stuff..

Also, i have been using the stevia product for quite sometime and you are right on about it,,it's great stuff....

This is just my opinion, and i hope it helps someone .....Happy New Year everyone and blelssings to all who make this forum so great....

Kimo

[Hitman]

I'm not a fan of stevia because of its horrible taste. I use a small amount of honey from time to time or splenda.

[Hawk]

Horrible Taste

That statement shocked me.  I guess it just illustrates difference in taste unless all stevia is not created equally.  I tend toward being nit picky about sweeteners (old sugar junky).  Even dipping my finger into the Stevia Plus product I use and placing it directly on my tongue it tastes great.  Stevia's main attraction next to the health benefits is that it has NO aftertaste.  It is also stable when heated or frozen.

Even though I used to maintain a couple bee hives and liked to taste different types of honey I consider them just sugar for blood sugar purposes.  Most commercially available honey is about as high in the Glycemic Index (GI) as cane sugar and all honey is high.  Stevia is zero in the GI.

Spenda is an artificial chemical sweetener and not a natural substance.  I am not one that maintains anything natural is good for the body but I am one that has seen too many man-made chemical substitutes that seemed like a great idea, end up as bad news.

[Hawk]

Hawk,,,,you say [ prebiotic ],,,,do you mean probiotic ? Kimo

Kimo,

Prebiotic is actually a nutritional base that selectively feeds probiotic or healthy bacteria in the intestinal tract.

PS: I should add that "Stevia Plus" claims to do this.  I have not investigated that part of the claim.

[George999]

I have just a word of warning about ALL zero calorie sweeteners.  Not long ago, it was discovered that zero calorie soft drinks are implicated in diabetes to nearly the same degree as conventional soft drinks.  Why?  That is the million dollar question.  Personally, I believe it is because there are more things at work here than either calories OR glycemic index.  There is also the fact that "sweetness" itself has an effect of body chemistry.  It is known for example that "sweetness" alone tends to drive hunger, and if it can drive hunger, it can also drive other more subtle body chemistry issues.  Hawk is correct in rebutting this assertion, there is not factual evidence to back it up and, in fact, there is some to refute it.  However, no sweeteners contribute to satisfying hunger, but added fruit products contain nutrients that do.  For this reason, I have pretty much abandoned all sweeteners and try to use fruit products whenever possible to sweeten.  Occasionally, of course, sweeteners are unavoidable, but I do try to avoid them whenever possible. But, Hawk, I have to admit that my point is a petty one, so enjoy your Stevia!  And incidentally, if you search the web you will find some warnings on Stevia.  At one point the FDA even tried to ban it due to certain health concerns.  But at this point the WHO has pointed out extreme deficiencies in the studies that knocked it and have given it a clean bill of health and their "seal of approval".  - George

[Hawk]

For this reason, I have pretty much abandoned all sweeteners and try to use fruit products whenever possible to sweeten.  

George,

The correlation to that would be me saying, "I try to avoid cane sugar, sucrose and fructose which elevate blood sugar.  Instead I go with the natural sweetening effects of the stevia leaf that studes show have no impact on blood sugar.

Keep in mind, no artificially flavored soft drinks use stevia.  People that drink soft drinks are not health and nutrition conscious people.  The guess that the taste of sweet somehow causes diabetes seems to stretch a mile beyond any research.  The people I know that guzzle diet softdrinks, literally eat pies and cakes in one sitting.  I think it is much more likely that people sucking in nutrisweet and splenda have associated diet choices that others do not have.  These associated diet choices are much more likely to be the culprit rather than the these sweeteners.

In any case, none of this has anything to do with stevia since it is not used in softdrinks.

[Tim468]

I am pretty sure that artificial sweeteners stimulate the appetite, and thus may indirectly lead to increased caloric intake. Additionally, the belief that one gets some"free" calories because of not having had them in the drink, may lead to overeating as well.

Unlike drinking a glass of water, though, a sweetened glass of anything may leave one still feeling hungy.

Tim

[Hawk]

Here are some interesting studies listed on a web site that may or may not sell products.  I do know that stevia has been the subject of studies at levels 1000 times greater than human consumption with no NEGATIVE results.  At least at one time, the FDA would not allow it to be called a sweetener but rather a supplement   Go figure

http://www.stevia.net/safety.htm

I am also not advocating zero calorie drinks.  My mind set does not even grasp the concept.  I use stevia to sweeten plain yogart, smoothies, etc to replace sucrose, corn syrups etc.  These drinks have high protein, fibre, and omega 3 content and no NOT leave you hungry.