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Author Topic: ORAL TREATMENTS - GENERAL - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements  (Read 931390 times)

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Hawk

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Here we welcome comments and discussions on pretty much anything you take by mouth to treat Peyronies Disease.

What evidence is there that it either does or does not work?  Link to studies or tell personal evidence, who recommended it, where you obtain it, etc.
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Vitamin E
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2005, 09:36:13 AM »

Hawk, Administrator      Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005      10:10 pm   

My question - Is it practical to think something can cure what it can't even prevent? I say no, and I was taking 400 and 800 IU of vitamin E respectively on alternate days for a year prior to getting Peyronies Disease
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Colchicine - Side Effects
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2005, 09:38:33 AM »

Hawk, Adminstrator    Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005    10:55 am   

Everyone needs to be aware of the many possible side effects of colchicine. Most don't experience many of these side effects but they range from upset stomache and hair loss to damaged kidneys, liver, or bone marrow.

I have been on colchicine for 5 weeks and my white blood cell count has plummeted. Obviously, this compromises my entire immune system. Since I have a cancer history I will obviously never take another colchicine tablet. Even without this history I think my doctor would pull me off of them. At last word, the only treatment I am being offered by my Peyronies Disease specialist is penile implant after I reach the chronic stage.
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New to this Fourm
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2005, 09:40:30 AM »

Steveafike     Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005       10:44 am   

HI people glad you are here, I have had pyronies for about two and half years now and tried all the over the counter med, e, a, and all kinds of supliments, with no effect. i have used the VED device and find I get short term effect from this usaged. I continue to use the ved and am trying L Agentine, I think I spelled it wrong sorry. I started taking it last week. I have seen many doctors and have found nothing they say or do is helpful. I am going to a world known doctor in dallas in couple of weeks and will let you know what he has to say. My peyronies, is along the whole right side of the my unit, and I find it difficut to maintain an erection. Any way i am glad we are here for each other. will read and post when i can Steve
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Supplements
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2005, 09:41:43 AM »

Joshua, Global Moderator    Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005      11:34 am   

Arginine (NOS)
Carnintine
High gamma vit E
Quality multi vitamin

My personal opinion is this are must for men with Peyronies Disease. I take other supplements as well but this should be the basics.
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Serrapetese or Natto
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2005, 12:07:49 PM »

CDM Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:37 pm   

Is anyone using serrapetese or natto,I got suckered into tryin neprinol from that other forum and although my condition hasnt worsened it also hasnt improved,Id be very interested in hearing what other supplements, vitamins people are taking and what dosages etc, to help their conditions.
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l-arginine nos
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2005, 12:09:15 PM »

cmd       Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005       8:49 pm   

Also when you say l-arginine nos is nos actually written on the label.
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Re: Oral Treatments - Pills, Prescriptions, Supplements
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2005, 12:10:32 PM »

Joshua, Global Administrator      Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005      11:45 pm   

Yes, NOS is on the label. It is obviously just a NOS stimilant. I believe in this supplement. If you take at least 5 grams.
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NOS
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2005, 12:11:36 PM »

cmd     Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005       5:57 pm   
 
so it comes in powder form not capsule.
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Re: NOS
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2005, 12:12:52 PM »

Joshua, Global Moderator   Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005     8:30 pm   

cdm wrote:
so it comes in powder form not capsule.


tablet form with timed release is typically the way i have seen it.
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Enzymes
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2005, 12:14:46 PM »

taglioni      Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2005      4:35 pm   

I am taking 1500mg of Bromelain per day, it's a proteolytic enzyme commonly used for tennis elbow and other types of plaque buildup,
and I'm also taking Gotu Kola, an herb that was reccomended on a website, and 800mg vitamin E, and applying vitamin E oil also,
I only started a few days ago, after finally going to a uro. 7 months after three lumps appeared, then the bends,
mbarje
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Acetyl L Carnitine
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2005, 12:16:14 PM »

cmd    Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005      4:30 pm   

Ok I got my nos so Im gonna try it and see,also I bought acetyl l carnitine what does this stuff help with as it says it helps promote memory,I dont want to remember when me dick was straight.
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acetyl l carnitine
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2005, 12:18:31 PM »

Joshua, Global Moderator     Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005      12:12 am   

Quote
cdm:
Ok I got my nos so Im gonna try it and see,also I bought acetyl l carnitine what does this stuff help with as it says it helps promote memory,I dont want to remember when me dick was straight.


This is why I take L-Carnitine:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11446848&dopt=Abstract

It has many good benefits and I strongly feel it should be used by all men with Peyronies Disease.
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High Gamma E
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2005, 12:19:44 PM »

joshua, Global Moderator     Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005      12:52 am   

If you are going to take vit E, read the following link:
http://www.enerex.ca/products/gamma_e.htm

http://www.enerex.ca/products/gamma_e.htm

It appears High Gamma E is much better. My Dr got me on this early.
I am taking one 200mg in the morning and one 200mg in the late afternoon. We all know now that to much e is dangerous. 400 mg should be safe.
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RE: Joshua- Vitamin E
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2005, 01:06:24 PM »

Hawk, Administrator      Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005     12:45 pm   

Joshua,

I think this is the point where someone is supposed to jump in with a string of profanity and accuse you of being a Vitamin E salesma?  :D. I love it here.

I have no faith in vitamin E however. I took high gamma vitamin E before I got Peyronies Disease. It didn't prevent it so how would it treat it. I suppose my penis might have fallen off (which would have saved me money) had it not been saved by the vitamin E, but I think it is useless.

Do I take it, yes. It comes under the heading of one of those "what the hell" treatments. It is affordable, has some health benefits (in spite of alarmist studies) so I take 400 IU high gamma E at noon. I take 50 IU of Alpha morning and evening in my multi-vitamin
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Vit E
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2005, 01:07:56 PM »

Joshua, Global Moderator     Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005     1:44 pm   


Hawkman:
Yes, I am like you on this subject I would rather be safe than sorry and use the e. However, I would not discount it usefulness just because you obtained Peyronies Disease while already using it. I have always understood it helps with the body’s natural healing process not as prevention to Peyronies Disease. I mainly wanted to point out that if you are going to use the e than use the high gamma e.
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Acetyl L Carnitine
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2005, 01:12:31 PM »

Caspian        Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005       1:56 am   

Joshua:
cdm:



Are you taking plain L-Carnitine or Acetyl-l-carnitine?


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Re: acetyl l carnitine
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2005, 05:30:55 PM »

Joshua, Global Moderator       Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005    3:36 pm   

Quote
Caspain: Are you taking plain L-Carnitine or Acetyl-l-carnitine?

I am taking Acetyl-l-carnitine. I should have pointed that out THANKS!

Joshua
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Re: Oral Treatments - Pills, Prescriptions, Supplements
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2005, 05:32:18 PM »

Joshua, Global Moderator     Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005      2:19 pm   

http://www.life-enhancement.com/article_template.asp?ID=610

Guys:
Go to the above link and read the entire page. It is very informative and interesting.
Joshua
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Re: Oral Treatments - Pills, Prescriptions, Supplements
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2005, 05:34:16 PM »

Caspian      Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005        5:03 pm   

Quote
Joshua:
http://www.life-enhancement.com/article_template.asp?ID=610

Guys:
Go to the above link and read the entire page. It is very informative and interesting.
Joshua

Yeah. I read that a while back. I use to get their magazine. This article was in one of the issues. I would like to see some more studies to verify efficacy. Either way, it certainly would not hurt to take some ALC. It is really popular as a "life extension" supplement--especially when taken with alpha lipoic acid. It's kind of expensive but you can get for pennies on the dollar at www.beyond-a-century.com

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Re: Oral Treatments - Pills, Prescriptions, Supplements
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2005, 05:36:02 PM »

j     Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005     5:07 pm   

Joshua, it is interesting but unfortunately I think it's also an example of some of the poor-quality studies that have been published on Peyronies Disease.

This one claimed an improvement of "15.9º to 8.4º, a 47% drop." 47% sounds like a lot until you realize that 15.9 degrees is not much to begin with, and an improvement of less than 8 degrees is probably within the margin of error of the measurement techniques.

If this group had an average curvature of 15.9 degrees, it must have included many patients who had only a few degrees - in my mind that wouldn't even qualify as Peyronies Disease.

I'm just not very impressed by these numbers.
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Acetyl L Carnitine Study
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2005, 05:40:19 PM »

Joshua, Global Moderator      Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005     5:17 pm     
Quote
j:
Joshua, it is interesting but unfortunately I think it's also an example of some of the poor-quality studies that have been published on Peyronies Disease.

This one claimed an improvement of "15.9º to 8.4º, a 47% drop." 47% sounds like a lot until you realize that 15.9 degrees is not much to begin with, and an improvement of less than 8 degrees is probably within the margin of error of the measurement techniques.

If this group had an average curvature of 15.9 degrees, it must have included many patients who had only a few degrees - in my mind that wouldn't even qualify as Peyronies Disease.

I'm just not very impressed by these numbers.


I understand your point J but I think there is at least enough to justify adding L-Carnintine to your supplement list. Your thoughts??
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Re: Oral Treatments - Pills, Prescriptions, Supplements
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2005, 05:42:27 PM »

Caspian       Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005       7:51 pm   

I agree with you Josh. Just because the change in the curvature was not dramatic doesn't mean that it is not worth it. Every little bit helps. ALC is a great supplement anyway and can't hurt.

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Re: Oral Treatments - Pills, Prescriptions, Supplements
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2005, 05:43:46 PM »

j       Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005         10:15 pm 

I got burned pretty bad by transdermal Verapamil. Lotsa money, out- of-pocket, for no benefit. And the 'study' behind that one looked w-a-y better than this one. What I learned was that if you spend a big chunk of money - and time - on something that doesn't work, you end up more frustrated and depressed than if you'd just done nothing. ALC isn't nearly as expensive as TV but it's still not just pocket change, for me anyway.

What a lot of these things have in common is that there's an initial study that seems to show an exciting result - then years go by, and you never see study number 2. That ALC study is now 4 years old...

I have heard a lot of good buzz about ALC, there is nothing wrong with taking it. If it were cheaper, I probably would. Check out

www.juvenon.com

...they sell a combination of ALC and Alpha Lipoic Acid on the basis of some very interesting experiments but rather thin supporting science.
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Re: Oral Treatments - Pills, Prescriptions, Supplements
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2005, 05:50:49 PM »

Caspian       Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005       3:52 pm
Quote
j:
I got burned pretty bad by transdermal Verapamil. Lotsa money, out- of-pocket, for no benefit. And the 'study' behind that one looked w-a-y better than this one. What I learned was that if you spend a big chunk of money - and time - on something that doesn't work, you end up more frustrated and depressed than if you'd just done nothing. ALC isn't nearly as expensive as TV but it's still not just pocket change, for me anyway..................................

I have heard a lot of good buzz about ALC, there is nothing wrong with taking it. If it were cheaper, I probably would. Check out www.juvenon.com , they sell a combination of ALC and Alpha Lipoic Acid on the basis of some very interesting experiments but rather thin supporting science.

http://www.beyond-a-century.com/ is way cheaper. 100 gms of ALC powder for $9!

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Re: Oral Treatments - Pills, Prescriptions, Supplements
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2005, 05:52:48 PM »

Joshua        Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005         4:25 pm   


CREDIT FOR FINDING THIS STUDY GOES TO HENRY ON BTC BOARD. Thanks Henry its an interesting study.

Sao Paulo Med J. 2005 Mar 2;123(2):54-7. Epub 2005 Jun 8. Related Articles, Links


Red cell aspartate aminotransferase saturation with oral pyridoxine intake.

Oshiro M, Nonoyama K, Oliveira RA, Barretto OC.

Hematology Division, Instituto Adolfo Lutz, Av. Dr. Arnaldo 355, Sao Paulo, Brazil CEP 01246-000. maoshiro@ial.sp.gov.br

CONTEXT AND OBJECTIVE: The coenzyme of aspartate aminotransferase is pyridoxal phosphate, generated from fresh vegetables containing pyridoxine. Vitamin B6-responsive sideroblastic anemia, myelofibrosis and Peyronies syndrome respond to high pyridoxine doses. The objective was to investigate the oral pyridoxine oral dose that would lead to maximized pyridoxal phosphate saturation of red cell aspartate aminotransferase. DESIGN AND SETTING: Controlled trial, in Hematology Division of Instituto Adolfo Lutz. METHODS: Red cell aspartate aminotransferase activity was assayed (before and after) in normal volunteers who were given oral pyridoxine for 15-18 days (30 mg, 100 mg and 200 mg daily). In vitro study of blood from seven normal volunteers was also performed, with before and after assaying of aspartate aminotransferase activity. RESULTS: The in vivo study showed increasing aspartate aminotransferase saturation with increasing pyridoxine doses. 83% saturation was reached with 30 mg daily, 88% with 100 mg, and 93% with 200 mg after 20 days of oral supplementation. The in vitro study did not reach 100% saturation. CONCLUSIONS: Neither in vivo nor in vitro study demonstrated thorough aspartate aminotransferase saturation with its coenzyme pyridoxal phosphate in red cells, from increasing pyridoxine supplementation. However, the 200-mg dose could be employed safely in vitamin B6-responsive sideroblastic anemia, myelofibrosis and Peyronies syndrome treatment. Although maximum saturation in circulating red cells is not achieved, erythroblasts and other nucleated and cytoplasmic organelles containing cells certainly will reach thorough saturation, which possibly explains the results obtained in these diseases.

PMID: 15947830 [PubMed - in process]

The entire report can be found here:
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S1516-31802005000200004&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en
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Re: Oral Treatments - Pills, Prescriptions, Supplements
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2005, 05:53:51 PM »

j          Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005        6:02 pm   

Well, that's a pretty dense paragraph. But what does it really say about Peyronie's? It seems to start with this premise: " Peyronies syndrome respond to high pyridoxine doses. "

What's the basis for that statement? What results are actually claimed?


After that point it talks about the dose that might be needed to get an effect.
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Re: Oral Treatments - Pills, Prescriptions, Supplements
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2005, 05:54:57 PM »

Hawk, Administrator       Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005      6:23 pm   

That is clearly the question.

We now know what saturation a specific dose will deliver. That would be very critical information if we could get an answer to the burning question. Now we need to know if it can cure, reverse, stop, or slow down the advance of Peyronies Disease?
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Study
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2005, 05:56:44 PM »

Joshua, Global Moderator     Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005      7:11 pm   

yes, I agree it does not point out how much Peyronies Disease was helped/cured but it is still worthy looking into.

The entire report can be found here:
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S1516-31802005000200004&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en
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Re: Oral Treatments - Pills, Prescriptions, Supplements
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2005, 05:58:18 PM »

dcaptain       Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005        10:07 pm   

Guys, I have to admit I've had one of those really, *really* long days, so maybe it's just the old noggin isn't willing to play ball tonight...but can someone please explain that article to me and how it might affect Peyronies Disease? I'm not being negative about it, I just honestly am wiped and don't understand it. Yes, I'm being lazy. But if anyone feels like explaining, by all means.

I'm smarter than I appear, I swear.
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Re: Oral Treatments - Pills, Prescriptions, Supplements
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2005, 05:59:35 PM »

j          Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005         11:16 pm   

I've only skimmed it and don't have the background to understand it , but the gist of it seems to be that the maximum "safe" dosage of B6, which is 200 mg/day, is enough to treat a number of conditions, including Peyronie's, that supposedly respond to B6 therapy. The article says that previous studies had used higher dosages but that this new study concludes they weren't necessary, 200 mg is sufficient.

Nothing is said specifically about Peyronie's, but I infer that the article in this footnote talks about treating Peyronie's with B6:

5. Rojer RA, Mulder NH, Nieweg HO. Response to pyridoxine hydrochloride in refractory anemia due to myelofibrosis. Am J Med. 1978;65(4):655-60.
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Joshua

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Re: Oral Treatments - Pills, Prescriptions, Supplements
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2005, 07:55:30 PM »

I have started taking a product called Dr. Murad's Cardio Discovery.
It is a orange mix/powder form,  one small scoop has:
L-Arginine =5 grams
L-Glutamine=100mg
Alpha Lipoic Acid =10 mg
Vit E=400IU
Vit C=500mg
green tea extract =50mg

I take it two times a day. That is over 10 grams of L-arginine! It helps with erections and I feel this might have helped me. Do a search and see what you think. I bought it from Wal Mart for $15.00.


I am also taking 2 grams of l-carnintine. I did add the 200mg of b-6. I know there was not much to go on with that study but I am trying it for a couple of months.

The above are a few of the new supplements I added. I am still on the ones I listed earlier.

Joshua

link to read about cardio discovery http://www.cardiodiscovery.com/
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Re: Oral Treatments - Pills, Prescriptions, Supplements
« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2005, 01:13:29 PM »

Hawk:
Per our phone conversation:
The information I have read does NOT show that L-arginine causes an increase in testosterone. However, I did read that L-carnintine does. I remember you telling me you prefer not to elevate your testosterone levels right now. You might want to look into that. I understand you take carnintine for your Peyronies Disease treatment.
What are your thoughts on this mix I posted above? It is the first time I have been able to consume that much arginine without getting an upset stomach.
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Re: Oral Treatments - Pills, Prescriptions, Supplements
« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2005, 01:42:34 PM »

Hawk:
Per our phone conversation:
The information I have read does NOT show that L-arginine causes an increase in testosterone. However, I did read that L-carnintine does.

If this is a joke to get me to post, I am coming after you ;)  Joshua,  I need that link or verbatim what you read.  I have read that ALC is better thantestosterone in treating many signs of aging etc. with no effect on PSA.  I have searched in vain to find any indication that it raises testosterone.  If it does, I must know because it could be life or death with anyone that has prostate cancer.  Also keep in mind that many older men harbor prostate cancer (PC) that have no clue they have it.  PC is testosterone fed just like breast cancer is estrogen fed.
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Re: Oral Treatments - Pills, Prescriptions, Supplements
« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2005, 07:17:24 PM »

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0801/is_8_65/ai_n6116981

"Bodybuilders have been taking ALC to boost serum testosterone levels." from a body building site

ACETYL L-CARNITIN
 Acetyl L-carnitine (not to be confused with the fat-burner carnitine) can contribute to stable and even higher testosterone levels in athletes who might be walking a tightrope in terms of overtraining. Too much training volume without adequate rest days can cause drops in testosterone levels. Studies also show that acetyl L-carnitine may help improve the uptake of glucose by muscles. This is important because improved glucose transport into muscles could translate into greater muscle mass and possibly less body fat.

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Re: Oral Treatments - Pills, Prescriptions, Supplements
« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2005, 11:56:23 PM »

I've been taking around 2 grams or so of ALC a day for the last couple of months.  I've actually not been taking anything for the last two weeks or so, but generally my regimen would look something like this:

2 grams of ALC
1 multivitamin
500mg of colchicine
400mg of 'Isomer E' the GNC vitamin E
Bee Propolis (the sign of someone getting desparate)
2 grams of L-Arginine
Omega 3/6/9 and Fish Oils  

It's possible I might be forgetting something from my 'cocktail'...

The above dosage on the Colchicine represents a typo and is likely .5 mg.    Maximum Cholcine dosing is only about 1.8 mg per day.  500mg would represent a likely fatal dose

Hawk


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« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2005, 02:12:26 AM »

Nick,

Where did/do you get the Neprinol from?  Is it something that's available at a place like GNC, or would you need a prescription for it?
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Re: Oral Treatments - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements
« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2005, 03:21:07 PM »

Mezz, That looks like a nice 'cocktail" If your stomach can handle it, I would raise the arginine or go to NOS (AKG arginine). I feel so strongly about the benefits I have seen with arginine.
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Re: Oral Treatments - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2005, 03:25:04 PM »

ALC intrigues me...and I have used it in the past for energy purposes... The reason I stopped it is that it caused an increase in acne and possibly an increase in hairloss as well (I have a full head of hair but slightly receding temples and I am genetically predisposed to balding).

This is the first I have heard of ALC increasing testosterone. I would like to see a well constructed study that supports this. There was a discussion on a few newsgroups that centered on whether ALC perhaps stimulated some of the same pathways as DHT...

This is intriguing because DHT (a byproduct of testosterone) is thought to play a role in  regulating the smooth muscle of the penis (and in sensitive individuals also stimulate hairloss and acne).

This gets even more interesting if you look at some of the claims of those taking finasteride (DHT inhibitor) that have reported the development of peyronies disease since beginning medication!

So it looks like in some way, ALC may either mimic (or increase sensitivity to) DHT, and this could be responsible for its effects on peyronies disease!?


Has anyone come across an explanation as to why ALC might help peyronies? I saw the study that was conducted vs. tamoxifen, but it offered no explanation.
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Re: Oral Treatments - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2005, 05:15:07 PM »

Mezz, That looks like a nice 'cocktail" If your stomach can handle it, I would raise the arginine or go to NOS (AKG arginine). I feel so strongly about the benefits I have seen with arginine.


Thanks Joshua- I'll admit that over the last few weeks or so, I've become pretty complacent about my regime.  I think I'm going through a down-period, in terms of my motivation to be proactive as far as my condition.  Basically, I tried to throw everything at it, initially, to see if I could see an improvement in that crucial initial period, before things became too stabalized.  Didn't produce any result.  

I will also say that this regimen HAS been a little difficult to handle from a stomach perspective.  It's a lot to put on ones digestive tract all at once.  The colchicine especially.  I've stopped using that altogether, as I don't think I was seeing any benefit to it.  Also, since my case is severe, I've come to realize to some degree that something like colchicine isn't going to be a solution.  One thing I've been surprised by is that there aren't more people who have a strongly negative reaction to that drug.  I found it to be very strong, and relatively toxic.  I experienced some weird symptoms while on it.  


I'm going to take your advise about the A-AKG products, Joshua.  In fact, I've got another appointment with a urologist in London Ontario that is supposed to be a relatively experienced Peyronies Disease guy- he's supposedly trained under Lue, from what my local Uro tells me.  During that appointment, I intend to inquire about the Pentox, A-AKG, Viagar/Cialis regimen that's been talked about.  I'd like to get some more feedback from the folks here about their experiences with this regimen, if they've been using it...? 

I'm interested in some of the enzyme based stuff, like Nattokinase, Neprinol and the like...expensive though- and I think that I would probably be throwing money away.
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mezz

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Re: Oral Treatments - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2005, 02:21:06 PM »

I'm hoping to re-initiate a discussion about the theory behind the Viagra/Pentox/N02 regimen that seems to be one of the more recent combinations for trying to treat Peyronies Disease. 

What is the theory behind including Viagra?  I'm a poor student, and although I could procure Viagra relatively cheaply, compared to straight retail prices- I don't understand why it is used in this combo?  If you don't have any erectile dysfunction, is there any other reason why it would be beneficial?  I guess perhaps it could increase blood flow, which would increase transmission of the Pentox..but other than that I'm at a loss as to why it is necessary.  The reason I ask, rather than just go ahead and get it regardless, is that it is the most expensive element of this regime, by a significant margin. 

What is Pentox?  What is the basic theory as to what it does for Peyronies Disease sufferers?  I'm sure this is probably 'the' critical element to the combo- so I'm not questioning its presence so much, but am hoping to get some background.  How expensive is it?

The N02 I'm more familiar with because of my interest in bodybuilding/weight-lifting.  It is an expensive supplement, and highly questioned within the bodybuilding community, as far as its value- but I can understand the theoretical role it would play in the combo.  To some degree, it strkes me as an enhancement of the viagra, rather than really playing an independent role...

I'm going to be procuring all of these medications/supplements individually, and so knowing something about their relative dosages would be beneficial as well.  Thanks-
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Hawk

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Re: Oral Treatments - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2005, 04:15:05 PM »

What is the theory behind including Viagra? .............  I don't understand why it is used in this combo?  If you don't have any erectile dysfunction, is there any other reason why it would be beneficial?  I guess perhaps it could increase blood flow, which would increase transmission of the Pentox..but other than that I'm at a loss as to why it is necessary.  The reason I ask, rather than just go ahead and get it regardless, is that it is the most expensive element of this regime, by a significant margin.
Mezz,

I too would wonder “why Viagra”.  I don’t buy into blood flow.  If you can induce an erection without Viagra.  You will certainly get less blood flow than from Viagra with no induced erection.  No one will ever convince me that they can induce more blood flow to the core and surface on the penis than a firm erection and a bit of heat on the  surface.  Remember Viagra only has less than a 3 hour window of effectiveness. We are told, and my extensive experience with Viagra tells me that Viagra has no  effect without physical or psychological stimulation.  I took about 33mg of Viagra per night 5 nights a week for about 8 months.  It was recommended following my radical prostatectomy.  It supposedly encourages nerve growth but there is no evidence at all of that.  There is some evidence that those that take a reduced dose nightly regain erectile functioning at a somewhat greater rate than those that take it only when planning an attempt at sex.  I am a bit suspicious of those studies but even if true, the cause and effect is never addressed.  Some of those studies were funded by Pfizer.

Also, even if it is true, it seems the logical choice would be Cealis which has a much longer half life (24 hrs V.s 3 hrs).  I get a delayed back ache 2 days after Cealis which is a listed side-effect.

I have ED.  With no ED, I would never spend the money on Viagra unless I had a very good explanation as to why I was doing it.  I would also want to know what that explanation was based on
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steven

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Re: Oral Treatments - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2005, 11:48:18 PM »

Guys,

I think the reason for l carnitnine, l arginine, VED, Viagra was to create erections, either daily erections or nocturnal erections. 

I think the premise is good, the erections could force blood into the penis in areas that are lacking blood due to obstruction from the plaque

Old Man explained this very well on the old BTC forum,  but anything that causes erections seem to be in favor, it makes sense since younger men have more stronger nocturnal erections and have less Peyronies Disease.  It also makes sense that some areas that contribute to the curve could be open and replenished with blood by more plentiful erections.

One thing that I noticed with myself is that the straighter and harder the erection, the less the curve, the only thing is that I don't have that many really hard and straight erections since I have Peyronies Disease, although I do get erections just not as strong as they were, but if they were as strong "consistently" I think the Peyronies Disease would resolve itself, just my opinion

Steven

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Hawk

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Re: Oral Treatments - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements
« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2005, 10:31:47 AM »

If blood flow is the issue, and erections are weak, trazodone 25mg with food may well be the $.03 per night answer.  It typically causes nocturnal erections at 1/6th the dose used as a typical starting dose for depression.  The smallest tablet made is 50 mg and it has to be cut in half.  It gives me better erections than 100 mg Viagra.  Trazodone does list priapism as a side effect.   Three cents vs. $10 dollars;  minimal dose with no other noticeable side effect vs. Viagra with several side effects?

There is more posted on this under "Erectile Dysfunction"
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Joshua

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Re: Oral Treatments - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements
« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2005, 08:16:27 PM »

I do not suffer from Ed However; I am always interested in erection boosters/enhancers. I use NOS and 5 grams of liquid arginine almost nightly to bolster my erection strength and help attack Peyronies Disease plaque.

I think strong frequent erections are the best medicine for Peyronies Disease therefore I tried trazodone for a few nights to test Hawks theory.  The first night it flat knocked me out. I went to sleep and had a great nights sleep. I tried it again the second night and I had an endless rock erection. My erection was so strong it almost ached. I woke up in the middle of the night with one of the hardest erections I have ever had. The only thing I didn’t like was it seemed like it took much longer to achieve an orgasm. However, this blows anything I have ever tried out of the water. I have used it here and there for erection strength but I don’t want to become dependent on it so I have backed off lately. Thanks Hawk for the tip! Guys get some of this it works! I am about to hit one right now ;)
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Hawk

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Re: Oral Treatments - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements
« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2005, 09:33:09 PM »

I believe Joshua posted that the only reason the first dose knocked him out is because he took a 100 mg tablet.  While that is still a light doses for depression, all you need for nght time erections is half of a 50 mg tablet taken WITH FOOD.

It is dirrt cheap, may help you sleep, no adverse effects.  It is usuall prescribed from 100mg to 450 mg daily so you can see how insignificant 50mg is.  If you have a good GP and explain what you want it for, most will redily comply because it is an insignificant dose except for the erections.

So far it has worked on 3 for 3 people tried it.  I take it almost nightly.
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Old Man

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Re: Oral Treatments - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements
« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2005, 10:55:42 PM »


Question for Hawk:

Since I have a radical non nerve sparing prostatectomy which left me totally impotent, do you think that the Trazadone would work for me? I can achieve only a partial erection on my own either manually stimulated or help from the wife. The VED has been the only means of achieving a good solid erection since the surgery.

Another thing too is that I have had bypass surgery and am currently on several heart meds. They are supposed to have little or no sexual side effects, and appear to not cause any problem with reaching a climax/orgasm. I suppose that consultation with my GP or heart doctor would be in order before trying them out, huh?

Also, does it require an RX?

Old Man
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kevin

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Re: Oral Treatments - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements
« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2005, 03:12:57 AM »

Like Hawk and Mezz, I have been unsure of the value of increasing blood flow to counter an existing case of Peyronies Disease.  For one thing, little is known about what causes plaque and curvature to occur spontaneously in the many cases that it does.  We need to keep in mind that the plaque could not have developed in the first place without good blood flow.  Whatever the actual mechanism, certain materials and forces were brought together by the body via the blood.  It could well be that anyone in the the acute (unstabilised) stage who really keeps up the supply for that mechanism (i.e., maximizing blood flow on a regular basis) is enabling the situation to get worse.  We only need to look at auto-immune disorders, allergies, etc., to know that blood as a transport system disrtibutes both good and bad actors throughout the body

In the months before my onset, I had been using Viagra a little more frequently than I had before.  It worked very solidly but obviously didn't prevent Peyronies Disease.  Could the sustained blood flow that it induced have been unnaturally excessive (for me as an individual) and actually allowed a natural body defense mechanism to go out of control?

I could understand true injury, as in bent  or fractured penis cases, requiring that blood deliver what the body needs to repair.  But with progressive cases of Peyronies Disease which appear to have a different origin, this thinking may not apply.  I believe that what we are all calling "Peyronies Disease" will eventually be found to be merely a symptom for which there is more than one cause -- and therefore more than one prognosis and treatment.  Yes, Peyronies Disease doctors prescribe sexual activity once the pain goes away (and drugs or supplements to help that activity) but that may only be because it keeps all the potentially depressed patients satisfied and functioning,  both sexually and socially, while the search for a cure continues (or doesn't).  Yet, are they sure that this cannot have a negative effect on the condition itself?

Can ANYONE at all verify that that following this mantra of blood flow really improves a true plaque/curve problem significantly?  (I'm not talking about minor cases subjectively reporting "it helped a little")  I'd love to hear that it  actually does work, but until then, I'm worried that my own efforts to do that have perhaps helped bring me to my current severe level of Peyronies Disease (almost 90 degrees).
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Hawk

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Answer To Old Man
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2005, 08:03:43 AM »


Question for Hawk:

Since I have a radical non nerve sparing prostatectomy which left me totally impotent, do you think that the trazodone would work for me? I can achieve only a partial erection on my own either manually stimulated or help from the wife. The VED has been the only means of achieving a good solid erection since the surgery.

Also, does it require an RX? Old Man
Answer- Old Man - If you can get a partial erection without taking anything, you are ahead of me.  I can get a partial erection only with Viagra.  If you ever get even partial night-time erections I am fairly confident it will work to give you good night-time erections.

Will it work for daytime Sexual Activity? This is a very difficult question.  I am almost embarrassed to say I have never really tried it.  The reason is that my solid erections only occur while sleeping and last only shortly after I wake-up.  Right now since I may still be rebuilding nerves, (17 months after a prostatectomy), getting solid erections sometime is important.  Because of that I take trazodone when I know it will work.  I use viagra and and/or a VED for sex.  I have woke up with solid trazadone erections only to have them fade away within minutes of waking up.  I can only deduce that I have stress/anxiety factors kicking adrenalin into my system.  When adrenalin receptors in the penis detect adrenalin, it guarantees loss of erection.  In fact it is how they treat prolonged erection (priapism)

RX -  You do need an Rx for trazodone.  My family doctor is the best.  He actually takes time, talks to me, and allows me to be a partner in managing my health.  I told him I wanted an Rx for 25 mg of trazodone per night.  His response was "if you are having sleep problems that is barely enough to have any impact.”  I explained that I have heard it causes erections, that I need erections for blood flow, and that I refuse to follow Dr. Mulhall’s advice to continue penile injections for blood flow because of the Peyronies Disease.  I also told him I have some manageable depression issues anyway.  He told me 25 mg of trazodone is way to small to have any likely impact on depression but we would try it.  For the erections.  The very first night it worked great. It continues to work.

Trazodone was tested and marketed for depression.  It has a very long history and they have found it also works for mild to moderate sleep problems.  It is prescribed at 100mg to 450 mg daily for depression (the larger dose is divided through the day).  It is prescribed at 50 mg prior to bed for sleep problems.  It only takes only 25 mg for erections which are listed only as a side effect.  In essence, I take it for the side effect.  Does the side effect kick in with everyone?  I don't know.  I personally know three people who have tried it, and all three have experienced the side effect..

PS: It does not make me groggy.  I awake refreshed, I can skip a night and I still sleep fine without it so I see NO dependence issues at such minimal doses.  It is cheaper than aspirin.

I may move these posts to “Erectile Dysfunction” and also leave a copy here.
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Joshua

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Re: Oral Treatments - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements
« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2005, 08:15:49 AM »

Hawk:
I wonder why it works? Does it relax the smooth muscles and allow more bloodflow? Does it increase NO production? Its results are intense. They are real. This is not a placebo effect. Your right I took too much the first night. It seems to even work better with the 25mg dose. More is not better.
I have used it about tens times now and noticed real serious obvious opositive effects in nearly every use.
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