INFECTION as cause for Peyronie's

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boomerang

This theory needs testing and cannot be disproved by other theories.  You cannot disprove one theory with another is what I am saying.  Results are everything in Science.

The theory is this:

Peyronie's is just a symptom of a deeper condition developing.

Bacterial infections of the blood and cells are known to target the Vitamin D Receptor in our cells DNA. The VDR is vital to our immune systems working properly hence why it is commonly targeted.

The reason why injury can trigger peyronie's is that the cell walls are damaged and the bacterial infection already in our bodies can easily get in to the damaged tissue to continue its steady progression throughout our bodies.  Drugs that weaken our immune systems or favour bacterial infection can also trigger peyronie's.  The bacterial infection will eventually cause peyronie's anyway regardless of injury or drug triggers.

Bacteria can exist in various forms so may not be detectable by normal methods.

When bacteria sense a hostile environment they form "cysts" and go into a protective state.  They also use calcification to shield themselves.
It is also thought that certain bacteria like a restricted blood flow.  Certain bacteria are also thought to target specific regions of our bodies.

I think you will find that severe cases of peyronie's do result in calcification and in some cases it turns as hard as bone so the bacteria theory does favour this argument. Blood flow restrictions would also be the cause of loss of potency.

There is a treatment known as the Marshall Protocol which uses a VDR agonist (Benicar or known generically as olmesartan medoxomil) (something that helps the Vitamin D Receptor to work again) It also uses some antibiotic treatments along the way.  It takes 3 years or more for the treatment to become effective according to the mpkb.org website.  It is worth having a good long look at the MPKB.org website.
Improving blood flow by any method should help also if this theory is correct.
Taking vitamin D and sunbathing (to a moderate extent because sunshine on our skin helps generate vitamin D) should also improve the condition (or at least hold it off for a while)
Anything that disrupts the bacteria's effects should also help.

Well that is the theory and the test that should be done is to find out if the DNA of removed cellular material has been changed thus indicating an intracellular infection







Brightdog

Interesting. I used to suffer from an auto-immune disorder - Reiter's Syndrome (now known as Reactive Arthritis). Mine was not sexually transmitted (apparently it can follow a chlamydia infection) as it started before I was sexually active. I am also celiac, so I cannot tolerate gluten.

It would be fascinating if all these things were part of some big-picture immune system problem.

slowandsteady

The consensus about the Marshall protocol is that its quackery (vitamindcouncil.org, the heartscan blog). There are many others.

From the wiki article:

QuoteThe Marshall Protocol has not been tested in randomized controlled trials and is supported solely through computer simulations and anecdotal evidence.

George999

Quote from: slowandsteady on September 09, 2010, 01:29:43 AM
The consensus about the Marshall protocol is that its quackery

And of course, that is the attraction.  Some people just love to follow the quackers.  They have a huge distrust of and bitterness against organized medicine and, in their search for alternatives, they are willing to accept the most extreme and bizarre explanations.  My belief is that if thats what they want, they should be free to make that choice.  (As long, of course, as they are consenting adults.)  This forum is riddled with weird and bizarre treatments for Peyronie's.  A few of them actually suggested by myself and then quickly withdrawn as I found them useless.  But among all the weird stuff, there are actually a few approaches that many guys have tried and found useful and effective.  That is how one sifts the gold out of the creek bed.  There are treatments that work here.  You just have to measure how many guys are reporting success.  Or you can be reckless and never move beyond those shot in the dark type concepts that never seem to pan out.  - George

boomerang

The Marshall Protocol, my reply.  I do not know if it works or not but it does sound interesting.

<<<< quote from reply...The consensus about the Marshall protocol is that its quackery (vitamindcouncil.org, the heartscan blog). There are many others.>>

I have read the articles and two of the links given  point to the same document by the same person on different web pages I certainly do not see any consensus.  Consensus by whom?

I can't see any physical evidence of tests showing that the Marshall Protocol does not work.  Again only negative theories are expounded which is no evidence at all.

Perhaps if someone could find me some physical evidence of tests or statements by patients that say it does not work or has proved harmful.

It does appear that Dr Marshall has two degrees and is highly educated and has experience of designing medical equipment.

His degrees are in Electrical Engineering apparently but that would only be an advantage as far as I am concerned.  Most of the doctors I have seen have no understanding of complex processes.  My last doctor although very pleasant replied that it was all too complicated so could not help me because I had more than three symptoms.  
Electrical engineers would have no problem with diagnosing a condition from 100 symptoms.  They are information sponges and nothing is too complicated.
They also have to be 100 percent correct in their diagnosis otherwise they lose their jobs.  
Doctors however are more highly paid and are hard pushed to get 30 percent of the diagnosis right and they don't lose their jobs if they are wrong.

This still does not mean that I know if the Marshall Protocol works or not.

I need real evidence one way or the other.

However on that note some recent findings about Multiple Sclerosis point to the condition being worse in the summer months and this would agree with Dr Marshall's theory that vitamin D (from sunshine on the skin) would make autoimmune diseases worse.

I don't fancy the idea of being vitamin D deficient and taking Benicar and antibiotics but if it turns out that that works then I will try it.

Skjaldborg

Electrical engineer != medical doctor

It is ridiculous to assume that an EE is better qualified to diagnose a medical condition than a doctor. While electrical engineers may be able to process large quantities of information they are not trained in the complexities of human biology. These two professions are completely different and cannot be compared one to another. Although computer scientists and electrical engineers do work with physicians to enhance computer simulations or better processing/organizing patient data (symptoms, background info, etc.) but that is very different from providing patient care. From personal experience, I once worked with numerous electrical engineers in the lighting industry and they were frequently less than 100% accurate and managed to keep their jobs. Some of the mistakes they made occurred despite significant experience and education; they were human beings and just plain screwed up.

If you were to ask Mr. Marshall himself, he would probably tell you that more research needs to be done before a conclusion is made. I sure hope no desperate Peyronie's sufferer stumbles upon this and starts limiting their vitamin D intake while gulping down whatever old antibiotics they have lying around. They won't cure Peyronie's but they will get Rickets and a Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus infection. I wonder if that shows up on a computer simulation?

-Skepticborg Skjaldborg





slowandsteady

Well, I'm a EE myself, so I don't hold that against him. ;)

If serum D levels are dropped to low levels, then a person would miss out on all of the benefits of vitamin D. Grassroots health put together this chart showing amazing reduction in the chances of getting a wide variety of diseases. I can't turn down a 77% reduction in cancer. There's a reduction in heart disease and even a reduction in falls among the elderly. I can't rule it out, but it's a stretch for me to believe that vitamin D suppression can be good for Peyronies Disease when its supplementation is good for so many other things.

boomerang

Skjaldborg,

Electrical Engineers design and build all the medical equipment including PET, CAT and MRI scanners. They design and build all the computer chips and chips in your mobile phone and your mobile phone.  They designed and built the computer you are sitting in front of.

I have had personal experience working with Electrical Engineering Students for years at a major UK University and frankly they are brilliant.  They are about 100 times cleverer than 99 percent of the doctors I have seen over the last 10 years who have done zero for my health.

They have inbuilt diagnostic skills so far above the level of medical doctors that it is hard to believe.

You may have missed it but heath went digital just before the end of the last century with the mapping of the human genome.
The people most suited to understand how DNA and RNA work are those in Electrical Engineering and Computing Science (both closely related).

DNA and RNA are the codes used by biological digital computers. That is us and everything living on this planet.

We tend to think of Electrical Engineers as people messing around with motors and coils but in fact they are more likely to be running computer models and designing complicated electronic and computerised instrumentation.  The machines which analyse DNA are also designed and built by these people.

So if an Electrical Engineer told me I would have to wear a clown's outfit and a skirt and paint my body green to be cured then I would have to look at it very seriously for quite a while before I could discount it.

Whatever the cause of Peyronie's, the answer is going to be outside the box otherwise we would have already found the answer.

I do find it counter intuitive that vitamin D could make certain diseases worse but if the infective parasite hijacked the vitamin D metabolising process then it could be true.

My wife has Secondary Progressive MS so this is very pertinent to my life.

There is recent evidence that MS is worse in the summer months adding weight to that theory.

It was also stated in the article, which was sceptical about Dr Marshall, that antibiotics have been known to treat Sarcoidosis thus adding further weight to the infective agent argument.  I have also been told that sarcoidosis is related to tuberculosis (an infection) and both diseases can occur simultaneously.  
I have a very close acquaintance with this disease who is being treated right now with antibiotics by his doctor.  So Dr Marshall's theory about this seems to have some weight attached.

I have also just read that an Arthritis protein 'guards against Alzheimer's disease' another clue that possibly there is an infective agent in that one disease might inoculate against another.

In the end I don't know yet whether the Marshall Protocol will work or not but there must be people out there that have tried it and will know!

His theory about infective agents being involved seems to be proving to be true.

The only way we will find a cure is by exploring all possibilities however way out they may seem at first.

The answer is not going to be obvious!

George999

The bottom line here is that there is currently a study underway of this bizarre approach to treating disease.  If this study survives peer review and gets published, that will lend credibility to the Marshall Protocol.  Until then, it has little credibility.  Additionally, the publication of even one case study would lend credibility.  In the mean time there are numerous websites touting all sorts of purported cures for Peyronie's.  Do we send people to these websites or promote proven treatments?  That is the question.  It is pretty much acknowledged that the Marshall Protocol can have serious side effects.  I live with issues today from being on long term antibiotics.  The risks associated with long term antibiotic use are clear and well known.  The benefits associated with their use are not so clear to the point that a majority of docs oppose the long term use of antibiotics for Lyme Disease even though it is known to be caused by a pathogen.  They believe the long term risks are greater than any short term or long term potential benefit.  You are literally traded one problem for another that might be worse, if you even get a benefit which is itself not clear.  Other risks associated with the Marshall Protocol include critical nutritional deficiencies.  For example, the chart noted by S&S clearly shows the health risks of insufficient Vitamin D.  As for health risks of too much Vitamin D (under 200ng/ml), those are not as clear.  Of course everything in life has risks including doing nothing.  I would not fault anyone for trying the Marshal Protocol.  But I would not promote it.  Only a few approaches have been demonstrated to have beneficial results for Peyronie's through well documented peer reviewed clinical trials and case studies.  Can people with no medical training achieve medical breakthroughs?  Absolutely.  It has happened on multiple occasions through history.  And they have often had extreme opposition from the medical establishment.  But in all of those cases, they were eventually able to convince at least some in the medical profession to take up their cause.  So far that has not been the case with the Marshal Protocol and that is very disturbing.  But time will tell.  In my case, I have driven up my vitamin D level from well below 30 to 85ng/ml which is very high.  AMAZINGLY, my Peyronie's is more under control now than ever in the past.  If vitamin D were the culprit, I would expect just the opposite.  So if ANYONE here wants to try the opposite approach and use the Marshal Protocol, I am all for that.  But until I see some peer reviewed data supporting its efficacy, I am not going to take the risk myself, nor will I advise others to.  Additionally, while I have my own issues with doctors, I have not found doctor bashing to be a useful way to resolve those issues.  I have experienced a number of occasions where I have been able to establish really productive relationships with doctors who at first were really difficult to get along with.  We have to remember that doctors are people just like us.  To somehow generalize that peoples intelligence is intrinsically related to their profession is just plain stupid.  There are, of course, EEs that are more brilliant than most doctors.  But there are doctors that are more brilliant than most EEs.  Where Trevor Marshall's intelligence ranks in this lineup remains to be seen.  At this point any rating on him is highly subjective.  When he can't seem to win over even one respected practitioner in the medical field, either mainstream or alternative, I find him highly suspect.  - George

boomerang

OK George, I was only giving my life experiences of dealing with EEs and Doctors.  

In my case the doctors were useless as far as I was concerned to the point of making me want to cuss but I never had a problem with the EEs.  EEs are trained in computer programming and modelling and have a deep understanding of digital systems. Considering that DNA code is digital in nature, and is the program for all life, it would seem that EEs do have the correct skill sets whereas how many General Doctors know anything about digital systems?

I don't agree with the philosophy of treating the symptoms only, which is the way my doctors approached every symptom.

However if no cause can be found then treating the symptoms is all we have.

The point here is that if we treat each symptom individually we may miss the larger picture which can be put together by a particular set of symptoms.


My close acquaintance who has the "Autoimmune disease" Sarcoidosis (the same disease which Dr Marshall is reported to have) is going to be treated with long term antibiotics by his specialist.  He has also been told that it is related to TB. His disease was diagnosed after his specialist correlated his previous symptoms.  Something which my doctors have never done.
I find it very strange that an autoimmune disease, Sarcoidosis, which causes multiple scarring, is now associated with TB by the medical profession.

So I don't bash all doctors just most of the ones I have met.

This makes me think of my wife's autoimmune disease Multiple Sclerosis which also means multiple scarring.
MS has long been suspected as having been caused by infection particularly because people living in equatorial regions who have visited temperate regions can get MS whereas those who have not travelled there do not seem to.

My thoughts on the possible link to Peyronie's is that I also have multiple scarring in my hands, feet and penis and probably in my back and elsewhere judging by my long term symptoms it also looks like I might have "Hughes syndrome".

Also all three of these diseases are inflammatory in nature so that is why I think there may be a link to infection being the cause. Also any resident infection could take advantage of injury which I suspect happened to one work colleague I knew who developed MS after a car accident.  Sarcoidosis and MS seem to target particular areas of the body which makes me think of Peyronie's which seems to target a particularly sensitive area.

I am only trying to get a discussion going because this line of investigation seems like it could be promising.

As for the vitamin D argument.  The jury is out as far as I am concerned.  It sounds counterintuitive but let's see.  I am not keen on staying out of the sun and taking less vitamin D but what do I know?

If treatments work then I am all for that as you point out, everything has a risk attached

boomerang

All through the ages people have looked for mysterious causes for diseases like bad karma, wrath of the gods, curses or spells, bad luck, bad air, stress or genetics.

In nearly all cases none of these have been shown to have caused the disease and even genetics has shown that even if you have bad genes then you still only have a maybe a 1 in 3 chance of getting the illnesses you are strongly susceptible to.

Genetics has not been the Holy Grail it was once thought to have been and now scientists are looking at Epigenetics seriously.

Epigenetics means "on top of genetics"  or everything else but genetics.

Many diseases once thought to have mysterious causes have turned out to have been caused by infection such as for instance:

1) Malaria  (meaning Bad Air but since found to be an infection spread by mosquitoes)

2) Cholera (again thought to have been caused by smelly air but in fact an infection in the water supply)

3) Cervical Cancer  (the second most common form of cancer , once thought to have been caused by stress or other mysteries but since found to caused mainly by infection from the human wart virus. Now young girls in the UK are being vaccinated against it)

4) Stomach Ulcer (Thought to have been caused by stress only 25 years ago but now it is treated with antibiotics since it is an infection by helicobacter pylori )


Whilst infections of any kind cause mental stress it is often this stress that is wrongly thought to have caused the infection.

Recent gene analysis of human saliva in healthy adults have shown there to be genes from up to 50,000 different species which are of none human origin.

With all those bugs living in our bodies no wonder we can get ill.

Until they identify all the bugs that can be found in humans and then run computer analysis on people with different diseases to find out if certain bugs or combinations of bugs are causing certain diseases then we should not assume that infection is not the cause of most diseases.

In fact we should assume that all diseases are caused by infection until proved otherwise.

Infection has been shown to have been the most likely cause of mystery illnesses in the past.

hornman

I've often thought this could be some type of infection.  Many men report a burning similar to a UTI when Peyronies first manifests itself.

rd


Worried Guy

I don't know if stress and sleep deprivation went towards mine.  It was at a point when I really hated my job and was only getting a few hours sleep a night.  It could just have been to do with something I did during sex though.

skunkworks

So you're suggesting that after an injury, an infection stops the trauma healing, causing Peyronie's?
This is an emotionally destructive condition, we all have it, let's be nice to each other.

Review of current treatment options by Levine and Sherer]

Luciano

Quote from: skunkworks on May 08, 2011, 02:11:03 AM
So you're suggesting that after an injury, an infection stops the trauma healing, causing Peyronie's?

Well when it first started, I had a very little bend just below the gland. After i noticed it, before I went to my uro, I had for the first time in my life a very severe Balanitis/Posthitis (an infection of foreskin and gland) (both together are called balanoposthitis).
As I was (jobwise) on a 12 day south america tour, I had no cream or whatsoever to treat it.

It gradually went away (once back, the uro gave me a cream and it was gone)
But ever since I had that infection come back (even without having sex)... like every 6 months. The cause is certainly not lacking  hygiene.
I then use radical treatments, anti fungical and anti bacterial creams.

But every time it does come back, I have the impression my peyronies condition worsens.
(I now have like a 45 degree up/left bend with hourglassing)
2 uros I have seen keep telling me its not related, but I do have my thoughts and my observations.

Luc

PS:
Quote from: boomerang on March 18, 2011, 09:42:05 PM
Recent gene analysis of human saliva in healthy adults have shown there to be genes from up to 50,000 different species which are of none human origin.
With all those bugs living in our bodies no wonder we can get ill.
Wow, 50.000 species in saliva. Knowing that makes oral sex only half as nice (LOL)

George999

Quote from: Luciano on May 08, 2011, 04:22:01 AM
But every time it does come back, I have the impression my peyronies condition worsens.
(I now have like a 45 degree up/left bend with hourglassing)
2 uros I have seen keep telling me its not related, but I do have my thoughts and my observations.

Conventional medicine compartmentalizes EVERYTHING.  To even suggest to conventional doctors that any one affliction is in anyway related to another affliction is akin to blasphemy in their eyes.  It runs counter to everything they were taught in med school about diagnoses and treatment.  EVERYTHING is to get a SPECIFIC diagnoses and receive a SPECIFIC treatment (usually a pill).  In reality EVERYTHING that goes on in the human body IS related to everything else going on.  While I would very much disagree with the assertion that Peyronie's IS *caused* by infection, I would very much agree that Peryonie's COULD BE *triggered* by infection and certainly could be made WORSE by an infection.  They idea that huge numbers of people are walking around with undiagnosed infections is a medical conspiracy theory that I believe is just as ridiculous as the belief that people never really went to the moon, it was just a hollywood special effects conspiracy.  But CERTAINLY, bacterial infections and viral as well could trigger and/or aggravate Peyronie's.  - George

Any given individuals body contains far more bacterial cells than human cells.  But the vast majority of these bacterial are NOT pathogenic, in fact most of them are beneficial and some we could not live without.  That is one reason that taking antibiotics unnecessarily is dangerous.

Luciano

I 100% agree with you george, Peyronies Disease was not triggered by the infection, because i had a small bend before the infection first appeared, but after the infection, Peyronies Disease was certainly much worse.
And.. second observation, i never had that kind of infection stuff before Peyronies Disease had started...
and it certainly didnt come from sex as I was always wearing a condom.
Luc

PS: As for the moon, i just seen a very well made bbc documentary (Was the Moon landing a hoax?), and after seeing that i really wonder...  ;D

swiss

My peyronies happened soon after I had a infection from an IV. It caused widespread inflammation in my right arm that took a year to disappear and heal. It accompanied stomach issues as well. I've always suspected that parasites might be a cause as well as widespread inflammation in the body. Doctors have always been against this theory.  

YoungFella

My pre Peyronie's started when i took vitamin d.
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Hawk

Quote from: YoungFella on November 10, 2018, 06:37:43 AM
My pre Peyronie's started when i took vitamin d.

Do you have any clue what your serum levels of Vitamin D were?

I think this is almost surely a case of "because "A" preceded "B" does not mean "A" caused "B".
Prostatectomy 2004, radiation 2009, currently 70 yrs old
After pills, injections, VED - Dr Eid, Titan 22cm implant 8/7/18
Hawk - Updated 10/27/18 - Peyronies Society Forums

YoungFella

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Hawk

Well then taking vitamin D certainly had nothing to do with triggering Peyronies Disease.  I don't think there is any connection to vitamin D but if there is, it was your borderline deficiency not starting the supplement.
Prostatectomy 2004, radiation 2009, currently 70 yrs old
After pills, injections, VED - Dr Eid, Titan 22cm implant 8/7/18
Hawk - Updated 10/27/18 - Peyronies Society Forums

madorno17

O meu Peyronie apareceu depois de uma injeção de papaverina feita por médico. Quando aplicou a injeção queimou por dentro, (eu acho que este calor é que produziu o Peyronie) o calor altera as enzimas causadas por bactérias e elas se agrupam. Na ocasião eu tinha infecção por clamídias, e quando tomei um bactericida 50% do Peyronie desapareceu. (Isto para mim é uma chave). Por isso encontramos pessoas que dizem ter aparecido pela masturbação. A minha pergunta é:___Por que só acontece no pênis? Então teria que haver um vínculo ao pênis. E ESTE VÍNCULO PODE SER O CALOR. Outros tiveram problema com dobra do pênis que causou um hematoma, e isto também quando inflama causa calor no local, mas é preciso que haja alguma coisa no local para ser alterado e estas coisas são as enzimas produzidas por bactéria, no meu caso a clamídia, (é uma bactéria intra celular que não aparece no sangue circulante), é fácil de tratar, mas difícil de diagnosticar.
     
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Michiganguy19

Quote from: Brightdog on September 08, 2010, 07:18:32 PM
Interesting. I used to suffer from an auto-immune disorder - Reiter's Syndrome (now known as Reactive Arthritis). Mine was not sexually transmitted (apparently it can follow a chlamydia infection) as it started before I was sexually active. I am also celiac, so I cannot tolerate gluten.

It would be fascinating if all these things were part of some big-picture immune system problem.

I got reactive arthritis from chlamydia. Same exact day my peyronies disease started. That 100% is what's causing it. But that was in November 2015. Obviously don't have chlamydia anymore. Still have arthritis though. That's why I think something else is triggering it. Found out I had a jaw infection. Think that maybe I have bacteria locked in my jaw triggering jt but my doc says sexual infections or bowel infections only. What caused yours and how did you get rid of ReA?
Peyronies Disease December 2015.
Caused by Reactive Arthritis, November 2015.
Length before erect: 7.2in
Girth before erect: 6.5in? Just a guess. Was 5.9 after loosing girth/having hourglass and first measuring.
Length erect. 6.2in
Girth erect: 4.1

Michiganguy19

Quote from: Luciano on May 08, 2011, 12:32:39 PM
I 100% agree with you george, Peyronies Disease was not triggered by the infection, because i had a small bend before the infection first appeared, but after the infection, Peyronies Disease was certainly much worse.
And.. second observation, i never had that kind of infection stuff before Peyronies Disease had started...
and it certainly didnt come from sex as I was always wearing a condom.
Luc

PS: As for the moon, i just seen a very well made bbc documentary (Was the Moon landing a hoax?), and after seeing that i really wonder...  ;D

Wearing a condom does not mean you won't get an std. I got chlamydia and I never had sex without a condom in my life besides the day I lost my virginity and wasn't planning to.
Peyronies Disease December 2015.
Caused by Reactive Arthritis, November 2015.
Length before erect: 7.2in
Girth before erect: 6.5in? Just a guess. Was 5.9 after loosing girth/having hourglass and first measuring.
Length erect. 6.2in
Girth erect: 4.1

Whyisthishappening

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