Injection w/ new doc - moving/shaking the needle

[MikeSmith]

I had been using fast size 4-6 hrs a day prior to the inejction... maybe that made it more prone to get sore?  I don't know when I'll be able to use it again... not now certainly. 

My last doc was not levine but someone wo trained w/ him and is a well known urologist / sexual medicine doc in my area.  I suppose I could call levine's office but i feel like i'd be "telling" on my current doc or something.  The pain is 95% gone now (though I am scared to have an erection...if I even can after yesterday)... so i'll see what happens w/ that first.

I just found a link on this site showing a small survey of people who got VIs... and again, most were unhappy or saw no results.  I don't know if I am going to continue w/ this. 

[Woodman]

Yes Mike, I actually went to see Levine after a while and asked him about the bruising. He explained to me that the bruising can take up to a year to go away. I dont think its common from what I gather. I think juist like you having a tremendous amount of pain with the injections.

I think each person is a little diffrent and there tissue and make up is too. I too also had to quit taking Pentox. I had a lot of swelling too after the injectons. After each one the swelling was diffrent. I would contact Dr. Levine and ask him about the pain & swelling etc. that you are experiancing.

[jackp]

ohno

The downside to penile injections for ED are peyronies and corporal fibrosis. I tried the injections and they only made my condition worse.

Most me that try quit very quickly. There are some few success stories but they are very few.

My recommendation is not to use injections, and if you do know the risk.

Jackp

[ohno]

When I saw Dr. Mulhall he told me that he had no where near the 60% success rate (it was more like 25% if I remember correctly.) There was also a considerable downside risk (I don't remember the percentage although I think it was around 15%).  I decided not to go with the injections.

[MikeSmith]

Thanks everyone for giving your thoughts on this.  I appreciate it.  I understand there are clearly two sides so I am glad to hear both.

Woodman, you're still bruised?  Do they have any idea why?  That's kind of scary.  I had that happen to my eye once - it went away around 4 mos.  I thought it was going to be permanent... at least it made me look like a tough guy...ha.   A black and blue penis is a little different.

Anyway, What Dr. Levine said on my first visit was that I should see him again after 6 injections at which point he prefers to stop if there is no (or negative) progress.  He may do another ultrasound then too - I'm not sure.

It's interesting that my VERY first uro (Dr. Vitimin E, I will call him...since that's all he told me to do & come back in 6 mos)  said the shots would be "unethical" to do as a first line move.  Now, I can see his point.  I guess unless you try the first step, going more invasive is not the right thing to do.  However, I played this game with my sinuses for years - constant medrol & levaquin... and finally gave up and had surgery - which solved the problem.  So, I figured - let's skip the Rx nonsense (pentox was making me jittery...not sure if arg does much, vit E isn't proven, etc...) and just go to the injections, fast size, and VED (which I've had some trouble with since I haven't shaved.) 

Right now I still have a "spare tire" encircling the shaft of my penis and it is black & blue.... so we shall see what that turns into (it appears to be less bad than last night) and if it makes things worse. 

I agree that the happy 60% would probably not be on this board since they likely moved on with their lives.  Also, for those of you who did not get results - were you in a later stage?  I got this in December so I am thinking maybe the VI will prevent the early scar from calcifying... but it's all just theoretical.

What I really don't understand is the pain I had after this round... I have never experienced pain like this & I've had my masseter muscle taken off my jaw bone & put back on... no fun there, but nowhere near as bad as what I went through yesterday...not even on the same 1-10 scale.  And my sinus surgery was a 4 on the pain scale (just very uncomfortable - no pain though)  My pain yeterday was an 11.. my jaw surgery pain was a 7-8 for a day...then 4 after that.

His nurse & secretary said they never heard of a guy in so much pain after the VI.... which really concerns me too. 

[Woodman]

I can agree with all of you on both sides of the point. I had 12 injections last year. I had a lot of pain, bruising, and swelling. It will be one year next month since my last injection and my penis is still bruised. While I was taking the injections I was way too sore and bruised to even use the VED afterwards.

After my 8th injection I started to experiance the shrinkage factor. Iam not sure if it was just timing or the injections theres no way to tell for sure. I went through with the injections after a lot of thought because the doctor said its all they had to try and decrease the pain and maybe stop the progression. When I got finished I didnt get anything from the injections but a bruised penis and a lighter wallet.

Do I think they mite of did more harm I think quite possabily. Would I do them again no I would not. IMO I think they get more of the effect by the needle swiss cheesing the plaque then the injection its self.

The doctor who performed my injectons also knew and followed Levine. Each plaque they would push the needle around in 15 to 20 times a piece.

This is just my experiance I wouldnt tell someone to do it or not to do it. I think you have to really sit down and think it through and decide for ones self. In the end I did it and now I dont have to wonder well if I would of done it would I be better would it of worked etc. Now I have it crossed off my list and makes my decisions easier with less choices. As Les said they also gave me the odds going in to it.

[lwillisjr]

I don't want to come across as disagreeing here.... but let's get the facts straight.

1. First off, Dr. Levine also uses the "sewing machine" method for his VI injections. I had 6 and watched during each one so I can attest from personal experience. Levine stated this this was his improved delivery method over the straight injection type. The objective is to break up and surround the plaque as much as possible with the Verapamil. It would only make sense that any of his "trainees" would do the same.

2. The injection does cause temporary trauma. There is some pain and bruinsing afterwards, but usually subsides in a few days. Why would one subject their penis to this...... because the trauma in most cases is temporary, and Levine does boast a 60% rate in those who see "some improvement".

3. Have VI's done more harm than good? In certain people yes. I clearly respect Old Man's bad experience and point of view on this matter. There is always a risk with any type of treatment. And there have been a few that have had bad experience with VI's. I'm always amazed at how this gets turned into "most".....  or "almost everyone", etc.  Did the VI's help me?...... no. I was in the 40% who didn't see an improvement, but I was willing to try all options. But I can tell you from personal experience that I had no ill side effects from the VI's. For me it was worth the try. And I for one believe Levine's results so I think there are many men out there who had positive experiences with the VI's.

So the bottom line is that the injections are not fun, a bit of pain and temporary trauma. Are there some documented cases of long term trauma..... yes. But we can't ignore the published 60% improvement rate. We have often asked ourselves where these 60% are at, and why we don't have more success stories on our forum as a result. But wouldn't it make sense that if they did see improvement that they likely are not surfing the internet for a site like ours looking for help?

my .02 worth

[Lennyman]

Mike I hate to say it, but any injection is bad for the penis. Many here got peyronies from the injection to get erection.  Reason why docs do it- 1. They get paid big bucks anytime they inject something.  2. They dont know of anything else.  They are just following  learned procedures from medical class.  Lenny

[MikeSmith]

Thanks guys...damn this is frustrating... there is an article claiming 60% had good experiences but of course the last thing I want is more plaque. 

Btw, I was in SEVERE pain today when the lidocaine wore off - I almost went to the ER.  I had to take 2 percoset... I have no idea what he did differently than Dr. Levine but it was bad news.  It felt like someone took a knife and stabbed me repeatedly in the penis... which is basically what he did with the needle I assume.  I have never experienced pain like that in my life - and now I have this giant lump running around the mid-shaft like a tire.  Don't know what that's about...

I don't get what the docs are thinking...if this causes more trauma, why are they doing it?  Is that 60% number really "truly" satisfied patients (in the publication I read from a urology journal)?  I don't think there is 1 poster here who is happy with VIs...is there?  And I know my curve got worse after my first one for sure (though that could also be due to progression of the disease).  Hourglassing did not get worse. 

I certainly wouldn't object to stopping these painful & time consuming injections... I just am hoping to be in the 60% of people who saw improvements... my plaque is still "soft" my Dr. says - so maybe it would prevent more calcification... but the pain today was so severe I feel like my whole penis is gonna turn into 1 big scar. 

[ohjb1]

To Mike Smith - Also had Verapamil injections. Agree 100% with Old Man.

[Old Man]

MikeSmith:

Some docs do use the jab, shake and twist method of injecting verapamil for Peyronies Disease. However, from the results of my 12 injections by a very qualified uro experienced in Peyronies Disease, I would not ever again allow any injection in my most prized possession. I was given 12 injections of verapamil before realizing that they were only giving me more nodules, plaque and a very sore penis each and every time.

Maybe they work for some, but for me, it was wasted dollars and time plus the docs charges. I do have good insurance, but I prefer to spend my insurance dollars in a better manner than something that still does not have a very good track of success.

The above is just my personal observations as well as others I know who have had the same experience that I did.

Old Man
 

[MikeSmith]

Hi -

I have a local doc that Dr. Levine recommended, and I noticed he was shaking the needle quite a lot while he was injecting.  I didn't look at all when Dr. L was doing it, so maybe he did the same thing - but I didn't see his upper arm moving quite so much.  Anyway, this new doc was really going in & out multiple times and then I ended up asking the nurse what that was all about. The nurse said that was deliberate to break up the plaque while putting the verapamil in at the same time.  This doc was trained personally by Dr. Levine, so I assume this technique is "right" - but it scared me a little bc I thought - geez isn't this causing MORE trauma to the penis?  I know with some severe raised acne scars there is a technique to sort of stab them and break them up - but that can seriously backfire. 

What do you guys think?  Have your docs done this during VIs?