VERAPAMIL Injections side effects (Bruising, etc')

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Mikesmith2

I have two really bad bruises now.  I applied pressure for 5 min after the injection but now, 4 hrs later, the bruises are getting pretty bad.  One is right by a needle stick near the plaque and is tiny but deep purple. Then, I have another one that is much much larger and red... lower on the shaft - nowhere near the injection.  Should I put ice on this?  Heat?  

LWillisjr

yep...   I had a series of 6 injections. I was black and blue for a couple of days each time. I kept ice on my groin off and on for the afternoon following the injections. I had a 3 hour drive home each time and pretty much kept an ice pack on the whole way. It will look it's worse the day following the injection. All was clear by about the 5th day each time however.

Les  
Developed peyronies 2007 - 70 degree dorsal curve
Traction/MEDs/Injections/Surgery 2008 16 years Peyronies free now
My History

Mikesmith2

Thanks so much Les.  That really helps.  I am hopeful that things will be cleared up by that time...that would be ideal.  The penis has so much blood inflow & outflow, that i think a bruse *should* clear up faster than a bruise on a leg or something... which has less blood flow like the penis. However, it's just a theory.   I once had a black eye for 3 mos... it was unbelievable... and embarassing.  I have no idea how it got so deep or if it's even remotely related to how soon this will go away.  I am hoping these injections will not be as deep and serious as that black eye was.  

How have your results been w/ your injections?  Did you see Levine as well?  Thanks again Les!

LWillisjr

I don't know that "more" blood flows through the penis or that it even flows faster. The rate would be the same as the rest of the body. And of course much of the blood in/out flow would be during an erection. All of which most blood flow is in/out of the corporas. Your bruising is in the Tunica and the thin layer of skin that covers the Tunica. I still think it will clear up in a few days, but I can't explain why it would clear up any faster here than any other part of the body. I suppose due to the fact that the Tunica is generally a thinner piece of tissue might lead to this.

Yes I  went to Levine and I would quickly recommend anyone to go see him. He will tell you that about 60% of his patients respond favorably to a combination of VI's, Pentox, and stretching therapy. I was in the 40% that it didn't help. So I eventually ended up having excision and grafting surgery that was very successful.

Les
Developed peyronies 2007 - 70 degree dorsal curve
Traction/MEDs/Injections/Surgery 2008 16 years Peyronies free now
My History

BrooksBro

A simple or minor bruise is nothing more than blood leaking out of the capillary bed and into the space outside the blood vessels.  In medical terms, it is a hematoma; blood outside of the blood vessels and into the extra cellular or interstitial space.  We know the penis is very vascular, so puncturing it with a needle is going to result in blood leaking out.  Bruises "heal" as the hemoglobin naturally deteriorates into other compounds that are re-absorbed.  Most minor bruises are gone within two weeks.

Applying ice is good because it constricts the blood vessels, which reduces the blood leakage through the needle-caused openings.


MikeSmith

I noticed I am sort of sore today... I'm guessing this is normal ?  I had 4 injections... 1 to induce erection before the ultrasound, 1 to reduce the erection, 1 to numb the penis (probably several- i wasn't looking) and then 1 in the plaque with verapamil...

So, today there is an ache... i guess i shouldn't be surprised but just wanted to check if others felt this way.

And you were right les, it is more black & blue now.

LWillisjr


You probably had 5. One to induce the the erection, one to resolve it. These are both done with a small guage needle.

for the numbing you usually get 2 injections, one on each side at the base of the penis. Also done with a small guage needle. Then the Verapamil injection which is done with a larger guage needle.

So yes.... your little friend feels and looks pretty well beat up after this.

Les
Developed peyronies 2007 - 70 degree dorsal curve
Traction/MEDs/Injections/Surgery 2008 16 years Peyronies free now
My History

MikeSmith

Yeah, it was fantastic... cant wait for more... !  The bruises started to fade...maybe in a little while, they will be completely gone -- the area where the needle went in was particularly dark

MikeSmith

For any future readers of this thread - they were gone w/in 5 days...same as chiguy... was extremely fast.  I read that putting heat on the area helps, so i did that for 15 min 3x a day.  

LWillisjr

So I assume the brusing was gone before your trip to Europe   ;)
Developed peyronies 2007 - 70 degree dorsal curve
Traction/MEDs/Injections/Surgery 2008 16 years Peyronies free now
My History

MikeSmith


MikeSmith

I had my 4th shot and I notice that in addition to the bruising, this time the swollen area is very firm... it's not like fluid-filled as it typically is.  This makes me kind of nervous because it almost feels like the softer parts of the plaque...and it's a very large area (not really over the plaque - just below the head - there is like a ring of this firm / purple colored area).  

Last time, I was able to resume FastSize at 3 days post - injection...this time, I don't see how I even could w/ the tissue there.  He really wants me to keep using FastSize, and I tend to agree given that I lost over an inch so far.

ComeBacKid

I wouln't push my luck with my only penis.  I still have yet to see one study that shows any kind of verapamil works with peyronies.  In my opinion if I'm going to subject my penis to bruising from injections, its going to be from xiaflex after it is showing it at least moderately works.  I would quit the verapamil injections as you could make it worse, inflammation and swelling is never good.  I and many others have straightened and gained back size from the VED alone, I've also heard good reports from the penis extenders.  I would just do that and scrap the injections!!

Comebackid

MikeSmith

As an update on 7/2/10 - verapamil injections did not work for me at all.  Rather, my curvature increased during the series of injections by a significant amount (30-50 more degrees upward, roughly), and I lost more length (about 3/4") and hourglassing was not improved at all.  Based on comparing pictures and measurements, it seems to have gotten worse.   I (personally) would absolutely not recommend these injections before trying the VED or FastSize with Viagra, Arganine, and Penox.  I don't know anyone on this board who is even an advocate of these injections...and there are a lot of people here with a lot of different kinds of Peyronies Disease stages & treatments.

Hey Comebackid,

I totally understand and basically agree with you & what others have said (and the shots are not exactly a fun experience).  I am concerned about the additional trauma.  Docs  feel that the trauma is essentially "controlled"  and the medicine can change the healing process vs. what may have happened when I had my first injury.  I know that's not the experience of everyone here & it may not even be mine in the end.  And to your point, the reason for my post was my concern over the trauma in this injection - which seems more firm/localized than previous injections that were more fluid and diffuse when healing.

Anyway, all that being said, the main reason why I am doing it is here...and I added emphasis on the things that "sold" me essentially.  

http://www.nature.com/ijir/journal/v14/n5/full/3900917a.html

"Of the 14 men who entered the study, 91% had resolution of pain, 42% had objective decrease in curvature, 58% had improved erectile dysfunction (ED), and 100% reported increased penile girth. "

and out of another sample of 150~,  "Increase in girth was reported by 83%, 80% described an increase in rigidity distal to the plaque,"

Peyronies Disease took another 1/2" in circumfrence (at least) past the plaque...and that area does not get as hard anymore.  So, it looks narrow and curved like the tail of a cocktail shrimp coming out of a shell.  If I can just gain the girth back with these shots, I will be happy.    If after 6, nothing changes, I can stop.   I know the sample sizes in these studies are not huge... and I may not benefit - but the people who got girth back seem to be in the majority.  Have you seen that paper before?  What were your thoughts on it?  I'm basing my decision pretty much entirely on that paper...and at this point I have 2 more to go & then another ultrasound.

I asked my doc about xiaflex & it's basically under lock & key right now for hand surgeons only who have also taken a special training course & registered with the company.  This has probably been discussed elsewhere, but the mfr is not risking any off-label use that might hurt their FDA approval for Peyronies Disease (if someone has a bad side effect from a urologist injecting off-label).  No urologist can get their hands on it at the moment.  It might be a few years off - by which time I might have calcified plaques.  Right now, I think my plaque is not calcified (in the majority).  The ultrasound showed a small spot that did seem calcified on one of the plaques...so, it's starting.  


samsabina

You guys know not to take Vitamin E during injection therapy, right? I found when I stopped Vitamin E at least THREE DAYS before getting an injection, I only got maybe 30% of the bruising I got otherwise.

Vitamin E inhibits clotting, promotes bruising. Good for increasing blood flow to the penis I suppose, but it's an anticoagulant.

For me - a veteran of 18 injections - it made a world of difference. I suspended Vitamin E, Vitamin C, and any ibuprofen at least three days before shots.  

Brightdog

I wasn't taking any of those things when I had my course of injections. I hate to think what the situation would have been like if I had been!

18 sessions? Is it working for you?

samsabina

Yes. Just got back from the measurement.
I went from around 35 degrees and unusable hourglass to maybe 10 degrees and only a slight notch. The penis is usable with a bit of viagra - perhaps even without. (I shall see if and when my wife and I get into the swing of things. This has been a rough year or two.)

I do have a new small scar elsewhere, in lower corpus, but apparently they are beginning to inject those, too. So far, it does not cause a bend so I'm going to wait and see if the new scar is worth doing anything about or if it will heal up with my various other alt therapies.

So I'd be considered one of the best cases for doing the verapamil injections. This was through Mulhall in NYC.  

Worried Guy

That is good news.  I'm going to ask my Uro about VI in 3 months.  He said I just missed out on the UK collagenase trial by a few weeks.  He did say if the trial is a success there is a good chance I can have it after.

YoungOne

Quote from: Brightdog on March 23, 2011, 03:21:26 PM
I wasn't taking any of those things when I had my course of injections. I hate to think what the situation would have been like if I had been!

18 sessions? Is it working for you?

I was taking everything and even took ibuprofen the day of.  I was an idiot but I was in a messed up mental state and he could of atleast mentioned to stop taking vitamin e, ibuprofen, and arginine before injections my first time.  After the first set i had terrible bruising my entire penis was swollen, black and blue, it healed up before the second round where i didnt take anything and got the shots without lidocaine.  The bruising wasn't bad.  Anyways, do you think i caused serious damage with the bruising?

samsabina

I don't think you caused any damage. Just discomfort!

BrooksBro

March 29 2012 I had my first verapamil injection (8 mg verapamil in 10 ml fluid).  The procedure was not uncomfortable nor painful.  It was nearly two hours before I could remove the pressure dressing.  There was very slight swelling.  I did not expect to see a one inch diameter, nearly black, "bruise" so quickly.  At least it was not painful.  Being located on the side, it was apparent to me that the PA (Andy Gonzales) injected the plaque from the side, rather than from on top.  I presume this is to minimize the risk of going through the plaque and damaging important structures beneath it, like nerves and blood vessels.

As the local anesthesia wore off, there was just a very slight pain, and at one small spot.  

I was told not to have sex for 24 hours.  I decided I should not take my nightly 25mg viagra.  I remember awakening during the night with an erection at least once.  This morning, the swelling was gone and there is still no discomfort or pain.   :)

When asked about results, the physician (Larry Lipshultz) quotes 50% of his patients have a measured reduction in the plaque size or curve after 12 injections (every 2 weeks).  At nearly 90 degree upward bend, I will be VERY happy if I can achieve a 30 degree reduction.  

I was instructed to do "manual modeling" several times each day.  This is bending the penis in the opposite direction of the curve, hold for 30 seconds, rest for 30 seconds, and repeat for a total of three times.  

I asked about using the Fast Size traction device (one of the first treatments I tried several years ago, and stopped after I could not see a curve reduction).  I was told it requires wearing it for at least 3-1/2 hours daily.  I had previously read this in one of Dr. Larry Levine's studies.

Before leaving the office, I scheduled my next five injections (through early June), after which they will reevaluate before continuing.

This office was in the Xiaflex study, and the PA spoke very favorably about that becoming the treatment of choice later this year or in 2013.

Luciano

Sorry if it is a stupid question...
Quote from: BrooksBro on March 30, 2012, 12:44:13 PM

I was instructed to do "manual modeling" several times each day.  This is bending the penis in the opposite direction of the curve, hold for 30 seconds, rest for 30 seconds, and repeat for a total of three times.  

I have read (also in the xiaflex threads) about manual modeling. I must admit even with your description i have no idea how to do it, nor how it works.
Because I have absolutely NO curve when flacid. and bending can only be done when errect.. because flacid as the word says is flacid.
So my question:
Is the modeling done when erect?
If not, please explain how it is done...

Luc


GS

Luc,

Stretch and bend against the direction of your curve and you will be bending and stretching AGAINST the scar.  So, if your curve is up, you will bend your flacid penis down.  I try doing a little "modeling" after using the VED and while I'm in a semi-erect state.  I don't think you should try modeling with a full erection.  You might do more harm than good.  In any case, be very gentile and don't try to force anything.

GS

Luciano

thanks for the explanation.
But i meant that if flacid, i can bend it in any direction i want, I will not be bending against anything, because there is no counter force. flacid is flacid and looks and feels perfect straight and soft (no plaque you can feel). So there is nothing i could force.

the bend only starts when semi ecrect. Actually its sort of dent that only appears and can be felt when filled with blood.
Actually the uro said, that in flacid state he could not feel anything.
But you can see it in ultrasound. just a different texture.

I will follow your suggestion, after VED sounds good and worth a try
Luc

charlie44

That's great that you had no pain. I have no pain during the Verapamil injections either, but the numbing shot is always painful. Out of the 5 treatments so far, two numbing shots were VERY painful....almost went through the roof. Doctor stated that a nerve might have been hit, etc....


BrooksBro

The "bruising" had all but disappeared after about 10 days, and there never was any pain with it.  Injection #2 on 4/12 had less discomfort than the first one.  The numbing medicine is a combination of lidocaine (short acting), a long acting medication, and sodium bicarb to lessen the "sting" of the other meds.  There was much less discoloration this time.

I resumed using the Fast Size traction device, managing to get in 3-1/2 hours (over 3 hours per day required per Levine's study) one day this past weekend.


BrooksBro

The morning of injection #4 this past week, for the first time I noticed one edge of the plaque was less sharp, like it had softened a little bit.  When I squeeze against the plaque in one direction, it is significantly less uncomfortable than it was previously.  I cannot detect any improvement in my curve.  

Injection #4 was a little uncomfortable, but it did not last so long that I wanted him to stop.  Nearly insignificant bruising the next day.

After injection #3, I noticed a small tender area at the base, which made it too uncomfortable to wear the FastSize.  When I pointed this out to the PA giving the injections, he said that was where he has been giving the numbing injection.