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Author Topic: Ketogenic Skeptic  (Read 975 times)

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Hawk

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Ketogenic Skeptic
« on: November 14, 2018, 10:28:12 AM »

I thought I would start a new topic so as not to divert your discussion.  I read on another board where NeoV stayed his body could not process carbs, and fats any more.  You cannot eat meat without fats.  You cannot live off of protein alone.

I am 69 yrs old.  I have cycled through many diet crazes (for health not weightJ and found zealots that we’re as bad a religious fanatics about every topic from carbs, to dairy, to vegan, not mixing certain items at one meal.  I have fasted for 5 days before (water only).  I have been vegetarian for 3 months.  I have been self-indulgent with desserts.

All of these zealots seem to have convincing data but I have settled on a belief of moderation in all things.  Easy on meat.  Eat mostly salmon and unpoluted fish or organic read meat.  Easy on hot flame grilling.  Eat colorful fruit and veggies.  Avoid refined carbs but not low glycemic index carbs.
Indulge on occasion but get back on the plan quickly.  Moderate aerobic and resistance exercise.
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NeoV

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Re: Ketogenic Skeptic
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2018, 11:51:11 AM »

Hawk, maybe I caused some confusion.

I eat mostly fat, and it's my primary fuel source. I was referring to the state of a pre-diabetic or insulin resistant person. Their bodies cannot use carbs or fats well, and they have to re-train their mitochondria to use fats by eating no carbohydrates and just fats, veggies, and protein. This is because the mitochondria use carbs before fats and that process blocks fat usage. The result is that the mitochondrial pool mutates so that they cannot "beta-oxidize" or use fats well. I very much eat classic keto!

My dad also believed in that kind of diet, which I followed my whole life. I ate brown rice, whole wheat, lots of fish, veggies, and fruit and never had sugar. Nevertheless, I had insulin resistance symptoms as early as 18. My dad has not adopted keto yet and now his feet are completely numb and his Peyronie's calcified. His Dupuytren's is worsening despite having xiaflex. As I have mentioned, inside the DD plaque is glucose dysregulation or glucose sick mitochondria.
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birdman73

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Re: Ketogenic Skeptic
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2018, 01:16:43 PM »

Hi Hawk,

Being one of the others “promoting” the Keto diet for this, I thought I would chime in as well.

First of all, I appreciate you not hyjacking the other threads. This is rare in this day and age where everyone is an online expert and like to prove their point in every thread they can (not particularly referring to this forum, but more in general).

And, I completely hear you about the zealots who turn things like diets into a religion.  Where if they talk to anyone who doesn’t follow the same diet as them then they treat them like second class citizens or something...  It’s really sad and have been recently been hearing in several of my Keto podcasts I follow that they are concerned that some will get this way with this diet too and they are really trying to push the message out there to not go too far...

Regarding your comments regarding the Keto diet...  I also completely understand and used to follow the same diet you promote...everything in moderation, stay away from processed foods, etc...  And I have lived this pretty much since I moved to Austria as it is very easy to get good quality food, farm raised, grass fed, etc... here. 

However, since 15 months ago when I got Peyronies Disease, and then two times in the past year was told there was nothing I can do and just “get used to it”...but then started the Keto diet on my own and started to immediately see results for my Peyronies Disease (along with other chronic symptoms I have had for years...  fatigue, restless legs, muscle cramps/spasms, etc...) dramatically improve in the short time I am on this diet, I can’t help but feel like it is helping. 

I of course know it is very easy to improperly associate the improvement to one thing or another, however, for me the results have been dramatic and now that I am mostly through the crappy part of going Keto, I will continue with all hopes to fix some of my chronic issues, and most importantly,  get my wedding tackle back in good health.  I am continuing to track my progress and will eventually start trying non Keto foods to see how I react...but if this Peyronies Disease goes away...it will be hard for me to look at some foods again and not think in my head as I go to eat it “this could be killing your penis...is it worth it?”...

Thanks again for the constructive post and new thread...  Respect.

Cheers!
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skunkworks

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Re: Ketogenic Skeptic
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2018, 10:50:28 PM »

I posted a brief report in the other thread that while on a totally carnivore diet, 48+hr fasts led to my big dents starting to fill in.

james1947

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Re: Ketogenic Skeptic
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2018, 04:28:59 PM »

Made a search regarding Keto diet and found some info. It may be wrong, I don't know.
* The ketogenic diet—also known as "keto"—has become the latest big thing in weight-loss plans, touted recently by celebs like Jenna Jameson, Mama June, and Halle Berry.
I don't care what celebs are saying :( But maybe I belong to a small minority :)
* Even many keto proponents admit that, if the diet’s not done “the right way,” it can be the opposite of healthy.
* Tried to get some more information, I was quoted between $29.99 to $69.99 for a 60 days plan
* I found also a list of Keto dangers in some places:
- The "keto flu"
- Diarrhea
- Reduced athletic performance
- Ketoacidosis
- Weight regain
- Less muscle mass, decreased metabolism
- Increased risk of heart disease and diabetes
I have other health problems to deal with, Peyronies one of them, so I am scared from the above list

James
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james1947

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Re: Ketogenic Skeptic
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2018, 04:37:26 PM »

Skunk

Can you give a link to the "Carnivore diet"?
I would like to give it a try.
Tried but didn't found you post in the subject.

James
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skunkworks

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Re: Ketogenic Skeptic
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2018, 09:21:08 PM »

- Ketoacidosis
- Weight regain
- Less muscle mass, decreased metabolism
- Increased risk of heart disease and diabetes

Those items are quite literally the opposite of the truth, in particular diabetes. You could not possibly remain a type 2 diabetic on a keto diet.

The carnivore diet is as simple as it sounds, just eat pieces of animals, preferrably naturally (grass/pasture) fed animals or wild caught if fish. Nothing else, no cooking in vegetable oils, only condiment to be used is salt. Do that for a month, try a few 48 hour fasts towards the end of the month.

Hawk

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Re: Ketogenic Skeptic
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2018, 10:24:59 PM »

Do you realize the vitamins, phytonutrients, antioxidants, you are not getting with such a diet.  I can never believe that is natural or healthy.
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skunkworks

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Re: Ketogenic Skeptic
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2018, 10:45:24 PM »

It's far more natural than the typical grain heavy Western diet, and far closer to the diet eaten by homo erectus onwards than any diet eaten by any ethnic group on the planet currently. One can remain incredibly healthy on a completely carnivorous diet for over a year, we know that - http://www.jbc.org/content/87/3/651.full.pdf

The only necessary thing one might possibly lack on a carnivore diet is vitamin C, which is something you need far less of if you are not eating carbs. If you can stomach eating liver, that isn't a problem either.

The carnivore diet is meant to be an elimination diet though, you do it for a month or more and then slowly add things back in to see if you have any negative reactions to them. I will not be adding anything back in till my dents are completely gone. The results I have seen so far lead me to believe that I can achieve that, a goal which no other treatment has helped with at all, dents I've had for almost a decade.

NeoV

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Re: Ketogenic Skeptic
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2018, 06:25:29 AM »

Keto typically provides you with not only more antioxidants and vitamins due to the high veggie consumption, but higher endogenous antioxidant activity (SOD, CoQ10, Glutathione).

Typical keto is massive amounts of veggies with meat.

Carnivore is another question, but so far people are finding that it does provide enough vitamins for the body, oddly enough. But you should eat most of the animal such as organ meats. As skunkworks and I have mentioned, you don't need as much vitamin C on carnivore since glucose has a way of blocking it due to it's structure being the same.
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james1947

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Re: Ketogenic Skeptic
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2018, 07:40:38 AM »

Thank Skunk for the Carnivore answer. All the beef is grass feed here and is not too expensive.
I also like it very much, with a good wine :)

James
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Bachelek

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Re: Ketogenic Skeptic
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2018, 08:56:54 AM »

I do the “Pioppi diet” based on a mediterrane life style, like a keto diet.
My peyronie is not gone or shrink, but I have also diabetes type 2.
And I quit with this diet insuline in 4 days and metformine in a week.

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jimbob73

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Re: Ketogenic Skeptic
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2018, 02:47:40 PM »

I am a non meat eater so I'm curious how could a vegetarian get close to this kind of diet?
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JS1991

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Re: Ketogenic Skeptic
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2018, 05:26:12 PM »

As far as keto, it is just high fat, very low/zero carb, and low/moderate protein. Just consume your bit of protein via other means than meat and you should be good to go.
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Hawk

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Re: Ketogenic Skeptic
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2018, 04:38:19 PM »

There are no vegan sources of protein that do not contain complex carbohydrates.
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diehardpatriot

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Re: Ketogenic Skeptic
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2018, 05:10:20 PM »

Hawk, the key for keto is LOW carb. NOT no carb. I mostly get my few carbs from nuts and veggies
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Christopher1

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Re: Ketogenic Skeptic
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2018, 09:20:49 PM »

I think autophagy is far more therapeutic than the inherent presence of ketones in the body.

Ketones in and of itself are not therapeutic. The constant presence of insulin, however, definitely can be destructive.

Autophagy is really the key behind healing. It works through ubiquitylation - a clean-up process.

Just my opinion. Do whatever works best for your body.
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NeoV

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Re: Ketogenic Skeptic
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2018, 10:47:47 PM »

BHB, the main ketone, blocks tgf-beta. It’s anti-inflammatory.
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JS1991

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Re: Ketogenic Skeptic
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2018, 05:30:55 PM »

Our bodies are flooded out with ketones while fasting at a higher rate than any other diet including ketogenic can possibly give you, on top of the autophagy benefits. It's like keto on steroids! Then you pick an actual diet of food to go on once you have no fat left to burn (such as ketogenic or carnivore, preferably on a one meal a day cycle) and get all of the benefits! This system is called the snake diet.

Neo, you started me on this path of dieting. In fact, you put me on to almost every treatment I know. The point I want to get across to everyone is that most of if not all of the benefit you have found through research on your "Diabetes of the Penis" theory carries over into the fasted state, if not more effectively.

Snake Diet vs. The Doctors: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Tw1cWYOjfY the guy does not yell or curse at all in this clip, so I suggest anyone watch if that is the reason for their aversion to the diet. I feel like the yelling and cursing puts people off from even looking into it, but the guy knows his stuff.

Dry Fasting Cures Everything: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3lEeZ-yMfE
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Cacogen

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Re: Ketogenic Skeptic
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2018, 07:37:26 PM »

BHB, the main ketone, blocks tgf-beta. It’s anti-inflammatory.

I wouldn't think it can be all that powerful a global inhibitor of TGF-β (do you mean specifically TGF-β1 ?) -- as in inhibiting TβRI kinase systemically -- because, with TGF-β1 being so multi-functional, it would cause various serious problems over time, which it does not appear to do. Maybe does fibroblast-specific inhibition of TGF-β1 signaling?

 

 
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diehardpatriot

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Re: Ketogenic Skeptic
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2019, 10:16:59 AM »

This thread is Awesome.
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Bubba dawg

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Re: Ketogenic Skeptic
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2019, 10:34:48 AM »

If you go out with a woman on a date and say you are on a keto diet. You won't eat meat. Then be prepared not to get any..... :D
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Re: Ketogenic Skeptic
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2019, 12:55:44 PM »

I’m on a primarily carnivore diet. Bc I fast and am so fat adapted I can do this and still be in ketosis
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